Serini is a moron

[BloodSquirrel]

Here's another point that I think it's worth fleshing out.

What do we know so far about the combat aspect of the defenses?

• The dungeon is full of powerful monsters, in homage to Kraagor.
• Serini collaborates with at least two intelligent monsters in defense of the tomb
• Serini has prepared specific traps and tactics to use those monsters' special abilities to devastating effect

How, exactly, does a traditional adventuring party fit into these defenses? The initial signs are that they very much would not. Maybe they could be thrown into the mindless part of the dungeon as a random encounter, but they would still be rather out of place.

So even if we are agree for the sake of argument to be dismissive about the information control aspect of the Serini's defenses... the Order still appears to be a rather bad fit for the combat aspect as well. Maybe if they can learn the right temperament to fit in they could be worked in with weeks or months of training, but those aren't available.

If nothing else, by doing exactly what they were about to do: Wait until Team Evil has exhausted their spells fighting through all of those traps and monsters, then attack them. If the Linear Guild were to burst into the room right now and attack, they'd have a pretty good chance of taking down The Order given that Roy and Durkon are still down, a bunch of their magical protections are gone, and Haley doesn't have her bow.

But that's only the worst way to use them.

-Durkon can heal whatever monster TE is fighting
-Durkon/V can cast spells to buff the monsters before the Ambush
-Haley can shoot arrows at TE from a distance pretty much no matter what is happening
-Durkon and V can also cast ranged spells, even if there isn't room for them in the melee

It's really hard to think of a possible ambush that The Order *couldn't* improve in some way, especially given how versatile high-level spellcasters can be.

Also- why aren't "Weeks and months of training" available? Xykon has already been there for weeks, and Serini seems to be fine with that. Her entire plan is to wait and hope that, uh, well that part still isn't clear, but she's not in any rush to try to taken them out.

Knowing that there is an epic rogue actually actually on-site and manning the defenses would be a major clue that there's may be more than meets the eye.

Serini doesn't actually have to give this piece of information away. Responding to a sending doesn't give away your locaion.

Also, on this point, if we're going to be "She can't tell the Order she's there because Xykon may kill one then raise them and question them" levels of paranoid, giving them an amnesia potion and sending them on their way has a lot of ways it could tip her hand as well. What if Xykon is scrying on the paladins? He'd think it was kind of odd that Lien and O-Chul are claiming that they saw nothing there. And since they already know that The Order are there, letting the Order attack them and get killed is going to raise a lot less suspicion than having them mysteriously vanish.

Serini would have actually really kind of screwed herself there. It's hard to think of something more calculated to get Team Evil to stop just walking into doors and start doing some serious searching/examining than "We know that our enemies are around here somewhere".

[Hurkyl]

It's really hard to think of a possible ambush that The Order *couldn't* improve in some way, especially given how versatile high-level spellcasters can be.

Huh, why does my true seeing reveal a party of invisible adventurers in that conical-shaped room? Maybe I should blast them from out here rather than continue into that oddly eye-cone-shaped room.

Also- why aren't "Weeks and months of training" available? Xykon has already been there for weeks, and Serini seems to be fine with that. Her entire plan is to wait and hope that, uh, well that part still isn't clear, but she's not in any rush to try to taken them out.

That's exactly it: Xykon is there now. She doesn't have three months of downtime where there isn't an active threat at her doorstep.

Serini doesn't actually have to give this piece of information away. Responding to a sending doesn't give away your locaion.

"Serini Toormuck is alive and is involved in Gate 5's defenses" a hypothetical piece of information specifically brought up in the preceeding thread of discussion.

[danielxcutter]

Huh, why does my true seeing reveal a party of invisible adventurers in that conical-shaped room? Maybe I should blast them from out here rather than continue into that oddly eye-cone-shaped room.

For starters, I presume the premise is that "Serini actually has a *bleep*ing plan." Because she didn't really have that much of a plan and half of what did work was luck.


If that's the game we're playing, True Seeing doesn't let you see through stone, blasting powers don't usually go through walls (I can think of like, two spells in the entire edition), and to be honest Team Evil doesn't look out that hard for ambushes because they're confident that they can crush one if it happens. It doesn't even seem that Redcloak usually has True Seeing active in each dungeon crawl either, and the duration's pretty short. Plus, this specific ambush is tailored for the Order; I very much doubt Serini would use literally the same one for Team Evil if only because of the lack of someone to Charm as bait.

That's exactly it: Xykon is there now. She doesn't have three months of downtime where there isn't an active threat at her doorstep.

I can't think of any plan whatsoever that a rogue and a couple of monsters could significantly improve enough in three weeks that could counterbalance the buttloads of XP Xykon and his allies have been getting.

[BloodSquirrel]

Huh, why does my true seeing reveal a party of invisible adventurers in that conical-shaped room? Maybe I should blast them from out here rather than continue into that oddly eye-cone-shaped room.

If we're assuming that Serini would try that exact same ambush against Xykon, then Xykon would already be seeing an invisible adventurer because she's there. Also, if "blast them from out here" is an option, then your ambush wasn't much of an ambush.

And this is a problem that you're going to run into with any scenario: if TE can easily spot and deal with whatever ambush you set up as long as they're walking around with true seeing and being cautious, then the problem isn't the Order, it's that you don't have the means to ambush them in the first place.

That's exactly it: Xykon is there now. She doesn't have three months of downtime where there isn't an active threat at her doorstep.

So are you taking the position that her defenses aren't adequate to hold of Xykon? Because an awful lot of the "Serini shouldn't be asking the Order's help" logic relies and the supposition that they are.

"Serini Toormuck is alive and is involved in Gate 5's defenses" a hypothetical piece of information specifically brought up in the preceeding thread of discussion.

But it's not a necessary one. "You idiots stay away from the gate, you've already blown up four of them" gives away almost nothing (if Xykon cared that much whether she was alive or dead he'd have been more careful to finish her off) and it lets them know both that they're not just screaming into the void and that her attitude is such that they might want to tell her that the stakes are higher than she thinks they are.

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyone saying "Serini should just answer their Sendings without giving anything away, it can *only* improve her position" has never responded to a cold call from a business-to-business salesperson. {snip] As another example, I have watched friends "ghost" someone who's giving them unwanted romantic attention. {snip} *Any* amount of information is too much information. "Serini Toormuck is alive and is involved in Gate 5's defenses" is ALREADY more info than Serini is willing to divulge. {snip} In a high-risk situation, free exchange of information CAN BE dangerous if you don't trust the person who's trying to contact you.

All good points. Loose lips sink ships.

In particular, I also disagree with Serini, in that my biases generally lead me to worry more about what I don't know, or even that I don't know that I don't know, and take every opportunity to gather intel. That does not, however, mean she's being a moron.

Thank you. Each post in the last few pages that has expressed "moron" or 'moronic' to describe Serini is wrong by virtue of (1) hyperbole and (2) not accepting that someone else can have a different perspective on the same problem. One can disagree with the approach taken, as you do, without descending to the level of the title of the thread.

Of course, now that The OotS can physically hold her down and explain that they have critical, urgent, and relevant information on the last Gate that Serini is unaware of, I'd expect things to change on whether she's willing to parlay instead of just ambush. But who knows, maybe she really is blindly optimistic about her ability to thwart would-be Gate destroyers or delusional paranoid about accepting any non-monstrous assistance. Guess we'll see soon.

One can only hope. Since she was not trying to kill the order, I find it likely that they won't kill her, and I think that Elan will establish a rapport with Sunny because that's an Elan kind of thing to do.

We already know one thing: Team Evil was expecting a tomb full of powerful monsters, and that's what they think they're dealing with.
{snip} And again, I think the difference between a party (especially a party of spellcasters) knowing that they're facing "caves with strong monsters and an epic rogue" versus just "caves with strong monsters" is far, far greater than many are giving it credit for.

Concur.

To be really clear here, I am saying that what Serini is doing is not rational from her point of view - based on what she wants to achieve and what she knows.

It is rational based on what she knows and what she fears: the chuckleheads destroying the gate. That is what she fears based on past performance. It is not uncommon for people to make decisions based on a variety of factors, to include what they are afraid of.

The point is that we aren't merely seeing rogue, beholder, and mimic fighting together as a group: we see them enacting an ambush designed specifically to exploit the nature of their group composition using preplanned tactics.

Well, she's a rogue and was an experienced adventurer of epic level. Small unit tactics she's gonna have a handle on.

Really, if we're operating under the premise that Serini could take out Team Evil - which I doubt she does - I just don't see how having the Order help would make it worse.

Her approach to Team Evil is more or less Sun Tzu's aphorism put into action:
"The acme of skill is to defeat the enemy without fighting him"

[danielxcutter]

Her approach to Team Evil is more or less Sun Tzu's aphorism put into action: "The acme of skill is to defeat the enemy without fighting him"

Ah yes, her plan to defeat Team Evil is to sit in her dungeon letting them grind XP while swatting adventurers who try and stop him. I see.

[RatElemental]

My older brother taught me a card game: Fifty-Two Pickup. We played it once. After that example I knew better.

How many chances should Serini be obligated to give to people who destroyed three gates already, once for fun, twice for the sole purpose of not letting Xykon have it?

None of the lost gates fell as a valient last ditch Hail Mary play. There was never even a second option or backup plan.

I think this is a bit unfair. O-Chul made the decision to destroy the gate after the entire Sapphire Guard died and before Soon manifested, which he probably didn't know was going to happen.

Roy decided to destroy the gate because Durkon got vamped, Team Evil was on its way, none of the gate's defenses were intact and the IFCC kept V from stopping him.

[Hurkyl]

If we're assuming that Serini would try that exact same ambush against Xykon, then Xykon would already be seeing an invisible adventurer because she's there. Also, if "blast them from out here" is an option, then your ambush wasn't much of an ambush.

And this is a problem that you're going to run into with any scenario: if TE can easily spot and deal with whatever ambush you set up as long as they're walking around with true seeing and being cautious, then the problem isn't the Order, it's that you don't have the means to ambush them in the first place.

I honestly don't see any good reason to think the following are exactly as easy to spot:

• An rogue and her party carrying out the actual ambush she planned in advance
• A much larger party unfamiliar with her methods carrying out a hasty modification to her original plans to include them

I guess if your premise is that nothing Serini could have planned is any better than what the Order can do impromptu, your position would make more sense.

So are you taking the position that her defenses aren't adequate to hold of Xykon? Because an awful lot of the "Serini shouldn't be asking the Order's help" logic relies and the supposition that they are.

I'm confused. Are Serini's defenses so weak that she requires the Order's help, or are they so incredibly strong that they can hold Xykon off NP despite weakening them to train up a group of newbies?

I was presuming the implication is obvious, that training up a group of new people would weaken the defenses, but maybe it deserves spelling out. There are multiple ways this effect happens, such as:

• The defenders are diverting their time away from defense
• The newbies can screw things up since they're unfamiliar with how things work
• Some parts of the defense may need to actually be disabled outright so they can be used in training

But it's not a necessary one. "You idiots stay away from the gate, you've already blown up four of them" gives away almost nothing (if Xykon cared that much whether she was alive or dead he'd have been more careful to finish her off) and it lets them know both that they're not just screaming into the void and that her attitude is such that they might want to tell her that the stakes are higher than she thinks they are.

Okay. It doesn't change the fact I was responding to the thing I was responding to rather than something else.

I'm not sure why she cares to let the Order know they're not screaming into the void. In fact, putting all other issues aside, I think she easily possesses the low level spite needed to actually have that ill will towards the Order for annoying her so much.

While I can easily understand V not doing so... one would think as much as it sounds like V has tried to contact her that they would have already said anything of cosmic importance they wanted to communicate. So that's a pretty weak long shot to insist that she should have played for.

[Hurkyl]

Well, she's a rogue and was an experienced adventurer of epic level. Small unit tactics she's gonna have a handle on.

Ooh, that's an aspect I missed. I was focused on the Order's lack of familiarity with Serini's defenses, but the reverse is just as relevant -- Serini is going to be far more proficient working with the familiar than she would be working with the unfamiliar.

[hungrycrow]

I'm not sure why she cares to let the Order know they're not screaming into the void. In fact, putting all other issues aside, I think she easily possesses the low level spite needed to actually have that ill will towards the Order for annoying her so much.

Letting them know they're not screaming into the void might dissuade them from acting rashly. It might also stop the random cold calling.

Of course any information she gives that makes the Order feel safer would be enough to change Team Evil's calculus. If they learned Serini was alive, her being at the gate would be a safe assumption for both groups to make.

While I can easily understand V not doing so... one would think as much as it sounds like V has tried to contact her that they would have already said anything of cosmic importance they wanted to communicate. So that's a pretty weak long shot to insist that she should have played for.

I doubt V would convey cosmic secrets in a 25 word sending. Remember that V had to assume every sending was their first message, so they all would have been light on details. "We have information you might not know" is probably as far as V would go for an introductory message.

[danielxcutter]

I think the serious cosmic secrets have only been known for like less than a week to the Order, and that's assuming they're all in the loop about the past billion worlds.

[hungrycrow]

I think the serious cosmic secrets have only been known for like less than a week to the Order, and that's assuming they're all in the loop about the past billion worlds.

There's also the planet within the rift, which V has known about for a while.

[BloodSquirrel]

I honestly don't see any good reason to think the following are exactly as easy to spot:

• An rogue and her party carrying out the actual ambush she planned in advance
• A much larger party unfamiliar with her methods carrying out a hasty modification to her original plans to include them

I guess if your premise is that nothing Serini could have planned is any better than what the Order can do impromptu, your position would make more sense.

No, my position is that Serini is either capable of setting up an ambush that is a real threat to TE or she isn't. If she is, then I don't see why whatever mechanisms she uses will be able hide her, her traps, and her monsters but not the Order. If she isn't, then it's a moot point.

There's no reason why it has to be "hasty". They can afford to spend at least a day planning and picking their spells. She almost certainly doesn't have a plan ready, right now, to ambush Xykon anyway.

I'm confused. Are Serini's defenses so weak that she requires the Order's help, or are they so incredibly strong that they can hold Xykon off NP despite weakening them to train up a group of newbies?

First off, both can be true. The problem isn't that Serini needs help urgently, it's that she has no endgame. Her defenses could be strong enough that Xykon would need a whole year to get through them, and she'd still need the Order's help because Xykon can afford to take that long and nothing will have changed by the time that he does other than that he's leveled up (assuming none of the other factions in the story make their move).

Second, I'm just pointing out an inconsistency in your position. There are too many branches of that hypothetical to sort through without spinning that out into it's own topic. If Serini had contacted the Order and arranged to work with them before they revealed themselves to Xykon, they might have had a few weeks. Now they don't. But one set of propositions that can't be true is {"Serini's defenses will hold indefinitely", "Serini doesn't have weeks to train the order"}.

I was presuming the implication is obvious, that training up a group of new people would weaken the defenses, but maybe it deserves spelling out. There are multiple ways this effect happens, such as:

• The defenders are diverting their time away from defense
• The newbies can screw things up since they're unfamiliar with how things work
• Some parts of the defense may need to actually be disabled outright so they can be used in training

So far, there's nothing we know of that requires Serini's active attention. Xykon isn't being stopped because the monsters are too strong for him to get past, he's being stopped because he has a lot of doors to go through and he hasn't figured out the teleport trap yet. We have no indication that Serini is actively coordinating the monsters' actions in the dungeons, and we don't know how it resets itself yet. Seeing as Serini only recently came back to personally defend the gate, it can't require too much attention on her part.

There's also no reason to be training them near a critical part of the defenses that Xykon is currently testing. She's probably got plenty of empty caves to practice in.

I'm not sure why she cares to let the Order know they're not screaming into the void. In fact, putting all other issues aside, I think she easily possesses the low level spite needed to actually have that ill will towards the Order for annoying her so much.

This is true, but it's not a point in her favor.

While I can easily understand V not doing so... one would think as much as it sounds like V has tried to contact her that they would have already said anything of cosmic importance they wanted to communicate. So that's a pretty weak long shot to insist that she should have played for.

Not really. Sending is 25 words. That's not a lot when you don't know what position the person you're trying to talk to is, if they're even alive, what their attitude is, what they do or do not know in the first place, etc. The Order doesn't know how willing Serini is to let Xykon win rather than risk any fighting near the gate. They didn't know how hostile she was toward them. They didn't even know she was at the gate- last they heard, she left the gate to go adventuring.

Most importantly, they didn't know she was getting the sending. V still didn't know as of the latest strip- and despite Serini's crankiness about it, V was correct in leading with the most basic information. If your #1 reason for thinking that you're not getting a response is that you message isn't getting through, and you're sending repeated messages in the hope that one of them does, then it makes sense to send the same message over and over again because that is, presumably, the message that he person needs to hear before they can understand anything else. And V had good reasons to make that assumption, given V's experiences trying to contact Haley.

We know what information they would have needed to give her that (might have) changed her mind, but that's only because we saw her conversation with the paladins.

Going back to my own test: nobody before that strip was saying "If Serini isn't responding to the sending, the V should try telling her that the gods are about to blow up the world." It wasn't an obvious thing to do until we knew what Serini's beef was.

[BloodSquirrel]

I think this is a bit unfair. O-Chul made the decision to destroy the gate after the entire Sapphire Guard died and before Soon manifested, which he probably didn't know was going to happen.

Yeah... and Elan destroyed Dorukan's gate because none of the Order had any idea what it was or what the significance of destroying it was. And Roy destroyed Girard's gate because V knew something that he didn't.

While secrecy has its virtues, there has been a pretty consistent pattern of "If the good guys knew more, they'd have been less likely to blow up the gates".

[danielxcutter]

Also the entire reason that destroying even one Gate was acceptable is because letting someone control the Snarl through it would be even worse, and it could be repaired. The problem is that since this is the last Gate, that's not an option - the risk is too great.

I think Serini's projecting her "either/or" mindset on the Order and the Guard, actually.

[Psyren]

Wait, I thought Bob was the Order in this metaphor, and they haven't come close to stopping Xykon.

They are, and they've come much closer than anyone else. They actually destroyed Xykon at one, and when he had an entire army at his back at the other, they delayed them long enough (including his various elites) to a point where if it weren't for Miko he and Redcloak actually would have lost. Even basic recon like O-Chul's record of Xykon's spells known would be extremely useful intel for Serini to have, and it's info she could reasonably expect them to be tracking.

Refusing to even speak to the folks who've fought him and survived, much less fighting him and almost winning, is foolish. The only justification for that I've seen, her wanting to keep the element of surprise over them, is flimsy - she clearly has resources they would never even think to ask about, and an Epic Rogue could lie her ass off in a sending to V if needed besides.

I don't want to speak for the other side, but I've gotten the impression that a lot of the argument rests on the potential for the Order to be useful allies, how much they've grown since then, and that they understand the stakes of this Gate. Again, though, Serini does not know that about them.

She may not know the growth bit, but she definitely knows they know the stakes, because Lien specifically told her they do. (I mean, she might think the paladin is lying to her face about that maybe?)

[danielxcutter]

"But... that's not even an option this time!"
"Yes, I agree! Which is why I'm going to wipe your memories to make sure!"

Yeah, I don't think she was actually listening to what they were saying and was mostly just rubbing her position in their faces.

[Ionathus]

That's not quite the same. After all the Order are going to show up, pretty much no matter what she says. While someone you are Ghosting...typically only communicates to you through that manner and thus eventually stops when you don't respond.

(Qui-Gon voice) I wish that were so.

Which, admittedly, could actually be something. There are potentially tricks that Serini has against Xykon that requires Xykon to not be expecting Serini to be alive. So if Serini has something like that up her sleeve, than I guess you will be correct. We will have to wait and see.

I agree with this. I'm not sure the risk of this happening would outweigh the risks Serini is taking by trying to ambush the order, but it's definitely something she should be concerned about.

Yeah, that'd be my concern too. Currently Team Evil still think Kraagor's Gate is just annoying, not actively guarded, and that informs how they behave.

Heck, Xykon is even being pretty chill about it, since he's gaining XP and magic items. I know others have mentioned this is only making him stronger, but I don't get the impression he's actually gaining loads of levels (he referenced getting a small amount of XP). Redcloak, Oona, and Greyview are probably the more pressing concerns from an advancement standpoint, and I acknowledge that's a concern. But the point is that Xykon, the biggest threat, was happy to keep dungeon delving in ignorance because of these minor rewards, which buys Serini more time. Sometimes in chess you sacrifice a piece so you can improve/consolidate your own position, so you can distract an opponent, or so you can weaken their position.

And I realize a chess analogy is going to make it sound like I think Serini is a hypergenius chessmaster who's been manipulating everyone expertly, so please know that I don't think that; it's just an example of why "Xykon gains XP and magic items" is not automatically a self-evident blunder, unless Serini thinks that strategy alone will work forever. Which I don't think we can claim one way or another with the info we have.

All good points. Loose lips sink ships.

Can I hire you to condense all of my forum posts? That was some truly skilled quote snipping.

"But... that's not even an option this time!"
"Yes, I agree! Which is why I'm going to wipe your memories to make sure!"

Yeah, I don't think she was actually listening to what they were saying and was mostly just rubbing her position in their faces.

While I understand and even sympathize with Lien's point of view, I am also not going to fault Serini for rejecting "yeah but we really, really promise this time" as a perfect argument. Heck, the paladins didn't even admit to learning the lesson she wants to hear: they're effectively saying "and we'd do it again to any of the first 4 Gates, before we let Xykon conquer the world for a few years/decades/centuries/millennia." Serini clearly does not believe that any of the first 4 Gates should've been destroyed, because even "just" reducing the structural integrity of the entire planet from 100% to 80% is an unacceptable choice to her. And she doesn't trust the people who are collectively responsible for taking it from 80% to 20% with her defense of the final 20%, no matter what they say. So yeah, I'd say she's not interested in hearing them out.

But I wouldn't call it "rubbing her position in their faces." I think the scene makes much more sense as Serini trying to explain herself to the paladins, rather than Serini asking the paladins to defend their actions and then ignoring them/talking over them. She's already made up her mind on whether or not she trusts or will listen to them (she won't) -- now, she's just trying to communicate her worldview and they are not having any of it. And I don't blame the paladins for reacting the way they did, because it's a pretty wildly non-LG viewpoint to take, but that doesn't make it flawed logic nor does it mean Serini is communicating maliciously.

[KorvinStarmast]

Can I hire you to condense all of my forum posts? That was some truly skilled quote snipping.

Heh, you can't afford me. I have a dislike of the visual waste (in my view) of quoting loads and loads of text when what I like to respond to are the salient points. Granted, sometimes the trimming does not serve me well, but visually I like to reduce clutter. Personal preference.

Serini clearly does not believe that any of the first 4 Gates should've been destroyed, because even "just" reducing the structural integrity of the entire planet from 100% to 80% is an unacceptable choice to her. And she doesn't trust the people who are collectively responsible for taking it from 80% to 20% with her defense of the final 20%, no matter what they say. So yeah, I'd say she's not interested in hearing them out.

This is another case of "where ya sit determines what ya see" plays a large part, or, if she wore shoes, walk a mile in her shoes before formulating a critique.
Which the OP failed to do.

[theNater]

They are, and they've come much closer than anyone else. They actually destroyed Xykon at one, and when he had an entire army at his back at the other, they delayed them long enough (including his various elites) to a point where if it weren't for Miko he and Redcloak actually would have lost.

We can, if you want, give the Order some credit for being in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon. That's not the same as nearly stopping Xykon themselves, though.

Even basic recon like O-Chul's record of Xykon's spells known would be extremely useful intel for Serini to have

Given that she seems to have some significantly detailed intel on O-Chul, what makes you so sure she doesn't already have a copy?

...the folks who've fought him and survived...

Do you think maybe you want to rephrase this?

[hungrycrow]

We can, if you want, give the Order some credit for being in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon. That's not the same as nearly stopping Xykon themselves, though.

They destroyed Xykon at the end of the first book. That would have been it if they had known what a phylactery was.

[Psyren]

We can, if you want, give the Order some credit for being in the area when Soon Kim nearly stopped Xykon. That's not the same as nearly stopping Xykon themselves, though.

They weren't playing Tiddlywinks outside you know. Xykon and Redcloak were almost alone up there because of the Order. A bit more clerical backup (like that Huecuva) and they could have had the Gate.

Given that she seems to have some significantly detailed intel on O-Chul, what makes you so sure she doesn't already have a copy?

I'd say it's far more likely that she has detailed intel on what happened in the throne room, since that's the tracking we know the Scribble agreed to. Rogues generally aren't known for their scrying skills.

Do you think maybe you want to rephrase this?

I meant in a campaign sense. Roy at least came back with his whole face, unlike some.

[theNater]

They destroyed Xykon at the end of the first book. That would have been it if they had known what a phylactery was.

You are significantly more optimistic about the Order's chances of defeating Redcloak and the MitD at that point than I am.

They weren't playing Tiddlywinks outside you know. Xykon and Redcloak were almost alone up there because of the Order. A bit more clerical backup (like that Huecuva) and they could have had the Gate.

And we can give the Order credit for that. And, y'know, your overall argument becomes stronger if you say that Xykon's lowest moments were brought about when the Order worked together with a Gate Defender. But it's still not the original claim you made, which was the Order is the only one that has come close to stopping Xykon.

I'd say it's far more likely that she has detailed intel on what happened in the throne room, since that's the tracking we know the Scribble agreed to. Rogues generally aren't known for their scrying skills.

The tracking the Scribble agreed to was a simple "is the gate broken?" yes/no. To know that O-Chul tried to destroy a gate, and that his personal katana was used to destroy one, requires another source of information.

I meant in a campaign sense. Roy at least came back with his whole face, unlike some.

Fair enough.

[Psyren]

And we can give the Order credit for that. And, y'know, your overall argument becomes stronger if you say that Xykon's lowest moments were brought about when the Order worked together with a Gate Defender. But it's still not the original claim you made, which was the Order is the only one that has come close to stopping Xykon.

Given that she's the only "Gate Defender" left, I didn't think I needed to spell out that part of it It's blatantly obvious I want them to work together, and think she is dumb for not even having a single conversation to that effect.

The tracking the Scribble agreed to was a simple "is the gate broken?" yes/no. To know that O-Chul tried to destroy a gate, and that his personal katana was used to destroy one, requires another source of information.

Soon, the paladin, was literally the only one who actually followed that agreement. Dorukan and Lirian were bumping uglies, Kraagor was dead and Girard lied about his gate completely. All it would take for Serini to know what was happening in that throne room - which she did - would be one more lie.

[Precure]

I never understand why Dorukan and Lirian's "secret affair" constitute as a breach of "no interference" rule.

[danielxcutter]

Because Girard and Dorukan hated Soon so much that she wanted to make sure the Scribblers wouldn't end up killing each other, so the vow was to never see each other again, period.

I do wonder if they did so knowing full well Soon and only Soon would keep it.

[Precure]

Because Girard and Dorukan hated Soon so much that she wanted to make sure the Scribblers wouldn't end up killing each other, so the vow was to never see each other again, period

That wasn't the point of that vow though, and it was about not interfering with each other's gates, not a vow to never interact with each other again.

[Dion]

That wasn't the point of that vow though, and it was about not interfering with each other's gates, not a vow to never interact with each other again.

I agree with you in principle.

In practice, it’s probably difficult to enforce the “no spying, no ‘just checking in’, no nothing” rule while dating.

In reality, I don’t think the distinction matters much. Lirian and Durokan agreed to see each other, and they did. Girard and Soon agreed not to see each other, and they didn’t.

They’re all dead and their gates are destroyed, and the vow is void, regardless of the letter or the spirit of the vow.

[Ruck]

It's blatantly obvious I want them to work together, and think she is dumb for not even having a single conversation to that effect.

Well, at least you spelled it out: "Serini is dumb because she's not doing exactly what I want her to do."

That wasn't the point of that vow though, and it was about not interfering with each other's gates, not a vow to never interact with each other again.

Point or not, the actual agreement and it's description seems to imply no contact whatsoever: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

[danielxcutter]

Well, at least you spelled it out: "Serini is dumb because she's not doing exactly what I want her to do."

And you say your positions are any different?