Serini is a moron

[Precure]

Without the order, Dorukan's gate would be still intact though, so no battle.

[danielxcutter]

Then Xykon would have sat on it until he lured in some other adventurer party that wasn’t as lucky, or Dominated someone Good or something.

[hungrycrow]

Then Xykon would have sat on it until he lured in some other adventurer party that wasn’t as lucky, or Dominated someone Good or something.

Or just grabbed one of the good-aligned sylphs working in the dungeon.

[Dragonus45]

Soon Kim and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard are still not members of the Order, no matter how much that would benefit your position.

The Ghost-Martyrs of the Guard only got that chance because The Order's presence on the battle field.

[Precure]

Then Xykon would have sat on it until he lured in some other adventurer party that wasn’t as lucky, or Dominated someone Good or something.

Though, again, we don't actually know if this is gonna work. Using a good aligned person was something Xykon theorized, not knew. For all we know, anyone who touch it would die just like the goblins.

[theNater]

...without them chances are Xykon would have grabbed that Gate and the world might have been unraveled right then and there rather than the gods dealing with TDO's blackmail plan.

Interesting. What do you figure would have happened without, say, Soon Kim and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard?

My claim is the most hyperbolic claim. Ever.

A bold claim indeed!

Hinjo would have been assassinated by the guy let out of prison to help with the defense.

Why? Without the Order, Miko wouldn't have murdered Shojo, so Hinjo wouldn't be a newly-crowned ruler, so Kubota wouldn't have had reason to orchestrate an assassination attempt.

The Ghost-Martyrs of the Guard only got that chance because The Order's presence on the battle field.

Okay? And? I've already agreed to give the Order some credit for Azure City, and I've already agreed that the Order has significantly hindered Xykon on multiple occasions, so I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of here.

[hungrycrow]

Okay? And? I've already agreed to give the Order some credit for Azure City, and I've already agreed that the Order has significantly hindered Xykon on multiple occasions, so I'm not sure what you're trying to convince me of here.

It sounds like you guys are both sitting on the same point (that Soon took on the main job of fighting Xykon but the Order was critical to him having a chance to succeed) while assuming the other is taking an extreme position (the Order didn't help at all/ the Order did everything).

[Psyren]

I definitely don't think the Order did everything.

I think they did do enough that her refusing to even pick up the phone and learn more about them is showing shockingly bad judgment when the stakes are this high.

[danielxcutter]

I also don't see why having her have, well human for lack of a better term, flaws would be a bad thing. I was under the impression that was Storytelling 101.

[Dion]

If Haley had t figure out the shell game, then Xykon would have reached the throne room earlier, and then Redcloak wouldn’t have been there in time to banish the force ghosts, and Miko wouldn’t have destroyed the gem in time to foil Xykons plan.

So really everything is all 100% Haley’s fault.

[Psyren]

Interesting. What do you figure would have happened without, say, Soon Kim and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard?

Wait, you mean Soon Kim and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire Guard were trying to Send to Serini? What page was that?

I also don't see why having her have, well human for lack of a better term, flaws would be a bad thing. I was under the impression that was Storytelling 101.

It's not a bad thing at all for the story. Her flaws make her a more interesting character. Doesn't mean I still won't criticize her for having them.

[Dragonus45]

I also don't see why having her have, well human for lack of a better term, flaws would be a bad thing. I was under the impression that was Storytelling 101.

Good story telling sure. Doesn’t make the character any less of a moron.

[Empiar93]

If Haley had t figure out the shell game, then Xykon would have reached the throne room earlier, and then Redcloak wouldn’t have been there in time to banish the force ghosts, and Miko wouldn’t have destroyed the gem in time to foil Xykons plan.

So really everything is all 100% Haley’s fault.

Actually everything is 100% Eugene’s fault for taking a blood oath and then passing it off onto Roy. They wouldn’t have even entered Dorukan’s dungeon otherwise, and without that they wouldn’t have blown up the first gate, prompting Miko’s misadventures, and everything that happened as a result of the invasion of Azure City.

Worst dad ever.

[Mike Havran]

Actually everything is 100% Eugene’s fault for taking a blood oath and then passing it off onto Roy. They wouldn’t have even entered Dorukan’s dungeon otherwise, and without that they wouldn’t have blown up the first gate, prompting Miko’s misadventures, and everything that happened as a result of the invasion of Azure City.

Worst dad ever.

Actually, it is all fault of the Gods for creating that dumb world in the first place. Why did they even move away from sentient movie snacks?

[Ionathus]

I also don't see why having her have, well human for lack of a better term, flaws would be a bad thing. I was under the impression that was Storytelling 101.

It's not a bad thing, but the line between "flaw" and "personality trait" can sometimes be a little fuzzy: Roy's snark, Haley's greed, and Vaarsuvius's sesquipedalian loquaciousness could all be considered "flaws" in the most rigorous sense of the word, but are mostly harmless traits that give the characters their distinct flavor and never impact the story.

However, contrast this with Roy's early disdain for Elan, Haley's inability to open up, and Vaarsuvius's obsession with ultimate arcane power. These are also character traits that gave the heroes their distinctive personalities, but these ones became major plot points that the corresponding characters had to grapple with, come to terms with, and move beyond.

I don't think anybody believes Serini is without any "flaws" whatsoever, nor have I seen anyone arguing that she is acting 100% perfectly rationally. Different groups of the audience are just in disagreement about which flaws Serini possesses, and to what degree. We're all waiting to see how the narrative portrays Serini once she doesn't hold all the power in the interaction: will she be portrayed as competent, or delusional?

Is her refusal to work with The Order because of their perceived danger to the last gate a trait?

• she's pragmatic
• she doesn't trust loose cannons
• she's got a know-when-to-fold-'em outlook
• she places survival over all else, including temporary tyranny
• she's gotten cynical and condescending in her old age

Or is it a flaw?

• she's delusional about her own importance
• she's sunk too much personal investment into being a gate guardian
• she's pathologically scared of round 2 with Xykon
• she's defeatist and is self-sabotaging to avoid facing another failure
• ...or maybe she's just a plain old regular idiot.

[georgie_leech]

Really excellent points

Hey, stop using up all the insight and rationality in this thread and save some for the rest of us!

[KorvinStarmast]

I think they did do enough that her refusing to even pick up the phone and learn more about them is showing shockingly bad judgment when the stakes are this high.

It's hard not to agree if we sit on the "reader level of omniscience" perch and make that assessment.
A harder way to make that assessment is from within Serini's limited PoV/perspective/in-her-shoes-if-she-wore any.
On top of that, doesn't every high level adventurer in D&D fall prey to hubris, at least a little bit? (One example being Roy on the undead dragon with Xykon trying to solo the lich).
She's epic level rogue, I'd guess she'd have at least one serving of hubris if not two. That hubris manifests itself as "I've got this!" in her case.

I also don't see why having her have, well human for lack of a better term, flaws would be a bad thing. I was under the impression that was Storytelling 101.

That too.

[Psyren]

Actually, it is all fault of the Gods for creating that dumb world in the first place. Why did they even move away from sentient movie snacks?

Presumably it got snarled, and they were definitely right to move away from it considering that none of the previous worlds spawned a new quiddity. I know I know you were being tongue-in-cheek

It's hard not to agree if we sit on the "reader level of omniscience" perch and make that assessment.
A harder way to make that assessment is from within Serini's limited PoV/perspective/in-her-shoes-if-she-wore any.
On top of that, doesn't every high level adventurer in D&D fall prey to hubris, at least a little bit? (One example being Roy on the undead dragon with Xykon trying to solo the lich).
She's epic level rogue, I'd guess she'd have at least one serving of hubris if not two. That hubris manifests itself as "I've got this!" in her case.
That too.

I don't have to be omniscient to know that getting to know someone she considers to be an enemy (and who has no idea that she is one) is just good tactics. She could have lied and said she has no intentions of going anywhere near the final gate because she's hiding from Xykon, and we'd all have believed it too - certainly V would have. Even if they didn't and were expecting her, they'd have no way of knowing she has epic poison and a bunch of monsters in her back pocket.

Anyway, what's done is done and I'm sure we'll learn more about why she approached it the way she did, where she got her info etc.

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyway, what's done is done and I'm sure we'll learn more about why she approached it the way she did, where she got her info etc.

Indeed. I see some exposition coming in the next two or three strips.

[RatElemental]

Indeed. I see some exposition coming in the next two or three strips.

Cue a cut to Xykon and Redcloak emerging from the dungeon and Redcloak starting to get suspicious about the whole thing because of the disappearing PCs, or to the Paladins as they attempt to break out on their own, instead.

[Ruck]

I also don't see why having her have, well human for lack of a better term, flaws would be a bad thing. I was under the impression that was Storytelling 101.

Not at all; she certainly does, and that makes her a better character. I just don't think she's a moron, just someone operating from a different set of priorities and information than would be optimal or than would actually best for the current situation. As I said before, I think what she's doing flows logically from her priorities and the information she has; "logically" doesn't mean "optimally" or "what I would do," though.

[KorvinStarmast]

Cue a cut to Xykon and Redcloak emerging from the dungeon and Redcloak starting to get suspicious about the whole thing because of the disappearing PCs, or to the Paladins as they attempt to break out on their own, instead.

I like that one better, but I happen to have a favorable bias for both Lien and O-Chul.

[danielxcutter]

Not at all; she certainly does, and that makes her a better character. I just don't think she's a moron, just someone operating from a different set of priorities and information than would be optimal or than would actually best for the current situation. As I said before, I think what she's doing flows logically from her priorities and the information she has; "logically" doesn't mean "optimally" or "what I would do," though.

Is it safe to say her priorities are kinda messed up even with only what she probably knows? I think they are.

[Ionathus]

I like that one better, but I happen to have a favorable bias for both Lien and O-Chul.

My money's on us staying here and getting more dialogue with Serini. In fact, I think the whole conflict is about to be resolved, one way or another, by whatever the next few strips contain.

Also, I feel like it's been awhile since any cut to a different set of characters happened without any transition panels (wide-angle shot of the airship flying away, final panel in a different scene that serves as a punchline, Sending or Commune or another communication...).

Is it safe to say her priorities are kinda messed up even with only what she probably knows? I think they are.

"My job is to protect the entire world, not the status quo" is her highest stated priority, and while I don't agree, I don't see how that's "messed up" either.

[danielxcutter]

"My job is to protect the entire world, not the status quo" is her highest stated priority, and while I don't agree, I don't see how that's "messed up" either.

And I very much doubt that is her actual core motivation.

[Ionathus]

And I very much doubt that is her actual core motivation.

Gonna need you to show your work on that one, then, because all the in-comic evidence points to her statement, as far as I can see. Even in the most uncharitable interpretations, her knowledge and reasoning seems to break (e.g. "she's a moron" "she's ignorant") before her stated motivation does (e.g. "she's crazy" "she's delusional").

[Psyren]

"My job is to protect the entire world, not the status quo" is her highest stated priority, and while I don't agree, I don't see how that's "messed up" either.

It's messed up because her assumption that Xykon's rule won't be so bad is naive at best, even putting aside the idea that the gods might unmake the world anyway if that happens.

[Peelee]

It's messed up because her assumption that Xykon's rule won't be so bad is naive at best, even putting aside the idea that the gods might unmake the world anyway if that happens.

Her assumption isn't that Xykon's rule won't be so bad. It's that Xykon's rule will be less bad than the end of the world.

[Psyren]

Her assumption isn't that Xykon's rule won't be so bad. It's that Xykon's rule will be less bad than the end of the world.

1) Right, but her assumption is predicated at least in part on the notion that he would only rule "for a few years." This in spite of her not only refusing to even talk to those who have firsthand knowledge of his capabilities, but also utilizing defenses that are actively making him even stronger.

2) Her complete dismissal of the clear third option (beating him and saving the Gate) is at best cowardly.

3) Had she bothered speaking with them, she'd have learned that letting Xykon win will likely result in the gods unraveling the world anyway. Clearly she has no idea why he wants the Gates in the first place, and failure to do even that basic recon is foolish.

[Ionathus]

1) Right, but her assumption is predicated at least in part on the notion that he would only rule "for a few years." This in spite of her not only refusing to even talk to those who have firsthand knowledge of his capabilities, but also utilizing defenses that are actively making him even stronger.

2) Her complete dismissal of the clear third option (beating him and saving the Gate) is at best cowardly.

3) Had she bothered speaking with them, she'd have learned that letting Xykon win will likely result in the gods unraveling the world anyway. Clearly she has no idea why he wants the Gates in the first place, and failure to do even that basic recon is foolish.

1) Even if he ruled forever, I wouldn't be surprised if Serini found that preferable to total annihilation as well. The "oppressive safety (existence) vs. risky freedom" debate that Roy mentioned at the Godsmoot applies here. The possibility of Xykon ever being toppled makes that calculation even simpler.

2) If it risks total annihilation in any way, she's not doing it. It's a line she won't cross, so of course she's dismissing it. Having lines you won't cross does not automatically make you a coward (though I won't argue if you want to claim other aspects of her character indicate cowardice).

You are not fairly acknowledging the enormity of the "everything is annihilated, souls and all, permanently" factor. It informs everything about Serini's actions, so if you don't hold that to the same value as Serini does, then of course you're going to think her priorities are skewed. But you don't live in a world that has a "destroy literally everything in an instant" fuse, much less a fuse that you spent years of your life researching, securing, monitoring, and defending. You are filtering Serini's situation through your own worldview, a worldview that is massively different than hers, and judging her based on your own life experiences.

3) Criticizing her for not knowing what she doesn't know, especially if that information is very niche information, is full-on armchair quarterbacking. You as an omniscient reader are criticizing her for not following up on every single offer of "new" information (and that's assuming they've offered any: we have no evidence that the Order have ever said "we have information you don't." All of their references to Sending to Serini indicate they're just giving status updates and telling her their next move).

You are watching National Treasure and saying "why isn't the German love interest lady taking Nicholas Cage seriously about the Declaration?" and the answer is given in the text: Nicholas Cage is a random dude telling a random story about a high-value target whose current guardians have been guarding it perfectly fine on their own for years. There's even a line of dialogue about that defense agency getting thousands of bogus tips every day. The Order's quest is obviously important to them, but it is a mistake to assume that importance is immediately obvious to everyone who interacts with them.