Serini is a moron

[Ionathus]

I can see people arguing that they don't qualify as heroes and what they really want is some help or other consideration, but surely that doesn't mean that calling someone a "hero" is demeaning in any way. If it's sincere it means that you admire and approve of some qualities of the person, doesn't it?

Certainly not if you're personally talking about a person or a profession that you yourself admire.

Taken in a broader context, though, it can make you feel patronized to ask for help and only get empty platitudes in response. It can feel infantilizing to have your problems put up on a pedestal instead of, well, fixed. I'm not sure "demeaning" is the word I'd use though.

[MartianInvader]

Resolved: Serini is not a sandwich.

I'll accept this only provisionally. If we see her dual-wielding daggers or crossbows I reserve the right to change my opinion.

[RatElemental]

I'll accept this only provisionally. If we see her dual-wielding daggers or crossbows I reserve the right to change my opinion.

There was that one time she dual-wielded a crossbow with a wand.

[Ionathus]

I'll accept this only provisionally. If we see her dual-wielding daggers or crossbows I reserve the right to change my opinion.

R...Reuben?

I don't get it

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll accept this only provisionally. If we see her dual-wielding daggers or crossbows I reserve the right to change my opinion.

Your post got me to this video, which I find very interesting. Also a nice lindybeige commentary on dual wielding This comments sums it up:
The off-hand is for my sword. My primary one holds my beer.
(Counter to lindy is here)

[Ruck]

Serini prioritizes saving the current world over defeating Xykon, and with the Order's track record, believes they are more likely to blow the gate than defeat him.

Serini does not know what Redcloak's real plan is, or that the gods have pulled the plug on the world many times before, that such a decision is already in heated consideration, and that they almost certainly will do so if Xykon and Redcloak seize the gate.

[Liquor Box]

Moron is probably to put it too strongly. But I think she has made some serious errors of judgment.

[brian 333]

A primary theme of the comic is the compounding cumulative effect of errors of judgement.

None of the characters act with complete information, (except maybe The Oracle,) from the gods right past Roy to Belkar. Serini is just a character trapped between what she believes and what she does not know that she doesn't know.

This is a good thing. Read the John Carter of Mars books for an example of a character always making the right choice even when he cannot know what that might be.

[danielxcutter]

I don't really blame her for not knowing about how the Plan actually goes and the likely result.

What I do find particularly grating is that her entire assumption that eventually some heroes will end up toppling Xykon after he takes over with the Snarl makes no sense at all.

Unless you don't know the true extents of the Snarl's threat, you'd have to be dumber than Elan to think that sooner or later someone'll be powerful enough to do that - the Snarl is already stronger than all of reality, and even a small fraction in the hands of an already epic spellcaster would make him the most dangerous being in the multiverse.

Either she doesn't know, it's just an excuse for something else, or she's insane. Personally I'm betting on 1), maybe option B.

[Emanick]

I don't really blame her for not knowing about how the Plan actually goes and the likely result.

What I do find particularly grating is that her entire assumption that eventually some heroes will end up toppling Xykon after he takes over with the Snarl makes no sense at all.

Unless you don't know the true extents of the Snarl's threat, you'd have to be dumber than Elan to think that sooner or later someone'll be powerful enough to do that - the Snarl is already stronger than all of reality, and even a small fraction in the hands of an already epic spellcaster would make him the most dangerous being in the multiverse.

Either she doesn't know, it's just an excuse for something else, or she's insane. Personally I'm betting on 1), maybe option B.

It doesn’t matter how powerful The Snarl is if you have the ability to ambush Xykon and kill him in a round or two. Controlling it doesn’t make him invulnerable to attack.

[danielxcutter]

It doesn’t matter how powerful The Snarl is if you have the ability to ambush Xykon and kill him in a round or two. Controlling it doesn’t make him invulnerable to attack.

And like that'd be easy in a Xykon-ruled world. It's not exactly easy now after all.

[hungrycrow]

I don't really blame her for not knowing about how the Plan actually goes and the likely result.

What I do find particularly grating is that her entire assumption that eventually some heroes will end up toppling Xykon after he takes over with the Snarl makes no sense at all.

Unless you don't know the true extents of the Snarl's threat, you'd have to be dumber than Elan to think that sooner or later someone'll be powerful enough to do that - the Snarl is already stronger than all of reality, and even a small fraction in the hands of an already epic spellcaster would make him the most dangerous being in the multiverse.

Either she doesn't know, it's just an excuse for something else, or she's insane. Personally I'm betting on 1), maybe option B.

The worst part of her plan isn't that future heroes trying to topple Xykon might fail. It's that if she thinks that fight is inevitable, then there'd be the same danger of those heroes destroying the gate to stop Xykon as there is of the paladins or the Order doing so. Except in that situation, Xykon would be managing the defense of the gate instead of Serini. And I wouldn't trust Xykon's commitment to the safety of the world at all if I were Serini.

Since the Order would probably still eventually suicide charge into Xykon if he won, it would be much better for Serini to convince them to do so outside the caves when Xykon is relatively weak, than to just delay that confrontation with amnesia potions. Worst case scenario they lose and Serini gets the situation she wants anyways.

[Dion]

What I do find particularly grating is that her entire assumption that eventually some heroes will end up toppling Xykon after he takes over with the Snarl makes no sense at all.

Is this a thing that Serini actually says? She says she’s certain Xykon will take the gate, and she’s certain that someone will eventually topple him?

If she is actually saying those two things in the comic, then I agree. She is a moron.

If she does not say those things are certain, but rather gave a detailed monologue about why she believes that is an acceptable risk, then you’re just assuming she’s a moron, and then imagining things a moron might say

[Emanick]

And like that'd be easy in a Xykon-ruled world. It's not exactly easy now after all.

Nobody's saying it would be easy. My point is that, in a scenario where somebody is in a position to take down Xykon, his control over The Snarl isn't necessarily going to be that relevant. That's like saying that somebody who rules a country with nuclear weapons is immune to assassination - their nuclear arsenal definitely makes them much more dangerous, but it doesn't necessarily protect them from being murdered. If anything, it makes them more of a target.

[danielxcutter]

I'd say it's a bit more difficult when he can literally threaten the gods and probably get away with it.

[hungrycrow]

Is this a thing that Serini actually says? She says she’s certain Xykon will take the gate, and she’s certain that someone will eventually topple him?

If she is actually saying those two things in the comic, then I agree. She is a moron.

If she does not say those things are certain, but rather gave a detailed monologue about why she believes that is an acceptable risk, then you’re just assuming she’s a moron, and then imagining things a moron might say

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html Third panel. She's comparing the options of the heroes winning vs Xykon winning, so she might just not be mentioning her own plan.

[Emanick]

I'd say it's a bit more difficult when he can literally threaten the gods and probably get away with it.

Okay - how, specifically, is control over The Snarl going to protect Xykon from a hypothetical epic-level adventurer or adventuring party?

[danielxcutter]

Okay - how, specifically, is control over The Snarl going to protect Xykon from a hypothetical epic-level adventurer or adventuring party?

I honestly have no idea why you assume that's likely or even possible in such a world - and that's assuming Xykon's stupid enough to sit on his pelvis when he knows he's got a target painted on it the size of the multiverse. He's not that stupid.

[Emanick]

I honestly have no idea why you assume that's likely or even possible in such a world - and that's assuming Xykon's stupid enough to sit on his pelvis when he knows he's got a target painted on it the size of the multiverse. He's not that stupid.

Well, I assume it is possible for an epic-level adventuring party to exist because we know at least one has existed in the past century alone. Assuming that another one could exist in the future doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

How likely is another one to form? I don't know, but eternity is a long time. The longer Xykon rules the world, the more likely it is that an adventuring party capable of taking him on will eventually materialize.

In any case, you don't need to sit on your pelvis in order to be susceptible to attack. Divination magic exists, as does word-of-mouth and The Oracle. Xykon is also probably the kind of person who likes to have fun too much to hide in a cave forever while he rules the world. He even enjoys a challenge, so it wouldn't surprise me if he took relatively few precautions against attacks from adventurers, although I'm not making any assumptions either way.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not actually defending Serini's perspective 100%. "A few years" seems like a seriously optimistic prediction about how long Xykon would be in control of the world if his plan went off without a hitch. Granted, there are a lot of unknowns.

[danielxcutter]

I'm honestly expecting she's seriously underestimating the Snarl's destructive potential by quite a large margin.

[Emanick]

I'm honestly expecting she's seriously underestimating the Snarl's destructive potential by quite a large margin.

She presumably had access to the same lore about The Snarl that the Sapphire Guard did, and according to Shojo, The Snarl "undid creation" in twenty minutes. That's powerful enough that any increase in power is basically irrelevant.

Like, how would the story or the threat posed by The Snarl be different if it was capable of destroying a planet in ten minutes? Two minutes? A round? I dunno, at a certain point it just seems like a meaningless distinction. It's an unbeatable world-devouring entity; that's all we need to know.

[brian 333]

What if Serini believes that even if Xykon wins he could never control The Snarl, and that the worst case scenario involves The Snarl destroying Xykon?

With Xykon gone she can safely close the gate. Assuming some adventurers don't destroy it first. And with ger gate out of danger she might get new and better hardware on the other four.

[Emanick]

What if Serini believes that even if Xykon wins he could never control The Snarl, and that the worst case scenario involves The Snarl destroying Xykon?

With Xykon gone she can safely close the gate. Assuming some adventurers don't destroy it first. And with ger gate out of danger she might get new and better hardware on the other four.

If she believed that, she’d probably just say as much, rather than simply claiming that Xykon ruling the world is less bad than the world being destroyed.

[hungrycrow]

If she believed that, she’d probably just say as much, rather than simply claiming that Xykon ruling the world is less bad than the world being destroyed.

That goes for pretty much any plan she has for stopping Xykon. Even just saying "I have my own plan to stop Xykon" would be better than leaving them thinking she'll let Xykon win. I guess it might be in character for her though.

Also, I can't think of a scenario where the Snarl can kill Xykon but isn't able to escape and destroy the world.

[hroþila]

I think people focus too much on the literal "few years" thing Serini said and too little on her underlying point that some hope of Xykon being defeated down the line is preferable to global oblivion. Sure, she's being flippant about it, but I think even if you got her to concede that the chances of Xykon being defeated later on are slim and that his rule may well go on for centuries if not millennia, that wouldn't make her change her mind because her reasoning doesn't actually hinge on his actually being toppled eventually.

[Peelee]

I don't really blame her for not knowing about how the Plan actually goes and the likely result.

What I do find particularly grating is that her entire assumption that eventually some heroes will end up toppling Xykon after he takes over with the Snarl makes no sense at all.

It does. He's a villain. A hero will eventually topple the villain. That's storycrafting 101. She may not be as genre savvy as Tarquin or Elan, but she's completely right about that. We know for a fact that this universe operates under laws of drama.she is unequivocally correct that a hero will beat the villain. She's just mistaken about which hero(s).

Sounds a lot like a much less extreme version of someone we've already met. Who happens to be a fan favorite for a lot of people.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't really blame her for not knowing about how the Plan actually goes and the likely result.

What I do find particularly grating is that her entire assumption that eventually some heroes will end up toppling Xykon after he takes over with the Snarl makes no sense at all.

Unless you don't know the true extents of the Snarl's threat, you'd have to be dumber than Elan to think that sooner or later someone'll be powerful enough to do that - the Snarl is already stronger than all of reality, and even a small fraction in the hands of an already epic spellcaster would make him the most dangerous being in the multiverse.

Either she doesn't know, it's just an excuse for something else, or she's insane. Personally I'm betting on 1), maybe option B.

My bigger problem is that she assumes some heroes will come to fight Xykon and these future heroes will somehow be more suited to this than the OotS.

[Peelee]

My bigger problem is that she assumes some heroes will come to fight Xykon and these future heroes will somehow be more suited to this than the OotS.

We don't known how much knowledge she has of how suited the OotS is (other than that she believe she can take them down herself), so this is not an unreasonable assumption. If it's incorrect, she may well re-assess.

[TRH]

It does. He's a villain. A hero will eventually topple the villain. That's storycrafting 101. She may not be as genre savvy as Tarquin or Elan, but she's completely right about that. We know for a fact that this universe operates under laws of drama.she is unequivocally correct that a hero will beat the villain. She's just mistaken about which hero(s).

Sounds a lot like a much less extreme version of someone we've already met. Who happens to be a fan favorite for a lot of people.

But it's not absolutely narrative driven, or that other guy's blithe assumption that Elan could pull a replacement party out of his pants were he to lose his current one would be spot on, and there's no indication it works like that.

Besides, a drama-driven world would never suffer a full apocalypse by that same logic, since that pretty much never happens in stories either. The world getting saved from jeopardy rather than succumbing to it is also storycrafting 101.

[madrobin]

OK, to recap:

1) Serini believes that she (and Sunny, I guess) can hold the last gate against Xykon indefinitely and that their failure to find it so far indicates that they will never, never, never find it (DUBIOUS)

2) Serini believes that all the adventurers combined can't defeat Team Evil (maybe so, but they're not chopped liver, especially given how paladin- and cleric-heavy they are now)

3) Serini believes that the Order isn't really out to protect the gate, given that several others have gone boom due to their efforts (dubious, given that destruction of the last gate would result in the world's end, and she has to know that the Order knows this)

4) Serini would rather attack than talk--which is the primary reason why she doesn't seem to understand the Order's goals or capabilities

5) Serini won't listen to O-Chul or Lien, even though they could be of great assistance to her

6) Serini might listen to the Order (especially with a massive dose of Elan), but she appears to be so cynical that she probably wouldn't believe them

7) Serini doesn't understand that her infinite monster-tunnel challenges could leave Team Evil in a very vulnerable position if the Order ambushed them after a hard fight (she has to have thought of this possibility upon observing the Order in wait-for-Xykon mode, since she deliberately screwed that up for them)

8) So at least, Serini's judgment is terrible.

I suspect Roy will try to talk some sense into her once the gang is back on its feet. I also suspect it won't work. Too bad. Serini on the team could make this a curb-stomp, epic lich or no epic lich (with the two paladins, of course)