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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    So taking plate armor off of a giant? Yeah, it's going to be scrap value at most.
    Or you know... Sell it to a giant... Or someone who will middle man it to a giant buyer

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Note the AND in that. Refitting (more than just "tightening/losening straps") is going to require a professional. Or at least a professional-level forge and proficiency in blacksmith's tools. As for time, I'd say it'd depend. But definitely less than making a full set. I'd probably hand wave it and say "minimum 1 work week of downtime for a character, a few days for a dedicated professional" and "250 gp" cost. More extreme cases would be, of course, more extreme. If you had plate made for a pixie and tried to fit it to a medium character, you're going to be paying for new plate armor entirely. Or cutting down plate for a giant for a halfling. But in-between, not so much an issue.

    "Close enough", for my purposes (because I'm lazy) generally means "same body shape (ie no extra/missing limbs/wings/etc)" and "same size category".
    That's fair, but also I think probably very common. Your initial post on the subject, to me at least, implied you would use that line from the players handbook to make it difficult for players trying to sell fullplate they'd taken off the knights they defeated. I doubt many DMs will let parties sell giant's platemail for more than scrap/a curiosity for someone with enough space to display it, unless the setting has a lot of giants living in cities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Or you know... Sell it to a giant... Or someone who will middle man it to a giant buyer
    If giants and cities are on trading terms, which won't always be the case. World and DM dependant.
    Last edited by Boci; 2021-09-16 at 02:00 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    If giants and cities are on trading terms, which won't always be the case. World and DM dependant.
    My cleric of Waukeen will not let an untapped market stand

    (Plus, it has to have some value beyond scrap... Artistic; place it on large statuary? Reshape onto a warwagon or ship?)
    Last edited by Naanomi; 2021-09-16 at 02:11 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    My cleric of Waukeen will not let an untapped market stand
    Wait until they find out about the literal hoard dragons are literally sitting on, though I'm not sure what she could offer them to break open that market. Scale polish? Interior design services?

    "See you have a lot of treasure, but you're sitting on it. When you're sitting on coins, its hard to appreciate the difference between 10,000 and 50,000. Sp what I suggest is we start taking advantage of more rock space in the walls and even ceiling. For a hoard of your size it will cost 7,000 gold pices, but afterwards I guarantee your hoard will appear 5 times bigger at least, possible even 10..."
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  5. - Top - End - #305
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Wait until they find out about the literal hoard dragons are literally sitting on, though I'm not sure what she could offer them to break open that market. Scale polish? Interior design services?
    Depends on if that loot was earned through labor or investment, or stolen out of the market. If the former, I would encourage them to invest in a diverse portfolio rather than sit on it (literally)
    Last edited by Naanomi; 2021-09-16 at 02:34 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    I wouldn't count on a draconic hoard being a market because they collect it for its own sake rather than for its monetary value. They wouldn't want to part with it even in trade, especially the evil dragons.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Note the AND in that. Refitting (more than just "tightening/losening straps") is going to require a professional. Or at least a professional-level forge and proficiency in blacksmith's tools. As for time, I'd say it'd depend. But definitely less than making a full set. I'd probably hand wave it and say "minimum 1 work week of downtime for a character, a few days for a dedicated professional" and "250 gp" cost. More extreme cases would be, of course, more extreme. If you had plate made for a pixie and tried to fit it to a medium character, you're going to be paying for new plate armor entirely. Or cutting down plate for a giant for a halfling. But in-between, not so much an issue.

    "Close enough", for my purposes (because I'm lazy) generally means "same body shape (ie no extra/missing limbs/wings/etc)" and "same size category".

    So taking plate armor off of a giant? Yeah, it's going to be scrap value at most. Will require a full rework. Take plate off a halfling and try to use it for a goliath? Yeah, no. But one human for another human? Likely not an issue.
    Might take a glance at strength. Individuals of the same race and similar physique should be able to slip into each others' armor without need of a fitting. Mind you, I consider "plate" to be munition-grade plate, similar to the stuff the Swiss landsknecht and others of that period were wearing, not the gothic stuff. Munition grade is good stuff, it served the Landsknecht quite nicely, but it isn't the stuff worn by the princes and dukes of Europe. The steel isn't as well-worked, among other things.

    And too, there's a lot of scrap value in iron or steel armor big enough to fit a giant. I'd give them 100 gold for the set.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    And can players ever buy used platemail for 100 gold? What AC do you have for wearing it?
    I suppose they could. But then they’d have to find a good armorer and the money/time to have it fitted.

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I wouldn't count on a draconic hoard being a market because they collect it for its own sake rather than for its monetary value. They wouldn't want to part with it even in trade, especially the evil dragons.
    That is where well paid dragon hunters come in, to liquidate those assets and reintroduce them to the market

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    That is where well paid dragon hunters come in, to liquidate those assets and reintroduce them to the market
    That just sounds like a recipe for inflation to me.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Daemon

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    That just sounds like a recipe for inflation to me.
    No, inflation happens when you sell the hide to some inventor gnomes who make a hot air balloon out of it.
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Won't apply as much to weapons, and now you're introducing hard mechanics for damage type, since I doubt necrotic damage has much effect on metal, unless it can now also rust iron doors suddenly. Plus mending is a cantrip the party might have,
    It can. Objects are generally immune only to poison and psychic damage. Necrotic works perfectly fine against iron doors. Assuming you can find a source of necrotic damage that can target objects, but that's whole 'nother issue. Though there are antimatter weapons from the DMG...
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

  13. - Top - End - #313
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    It can. Objects are generally immune only to poison and psychic damage. Necrotic works perfectly fine against iron doors. Assuming you can find a source of necrotic damage that can target objects, but that's whole 'nother issue. Though there are antimatter weapons from the DMG...
    Sooo, in other words, necrotic damage isn't going to damage metal, unless its living or from an anti-matter weapon. Doesn't seem like it will matter terribly much for the purpose of loot conditions.
    Last edited by Boci; 2021-09-17 at 02:02 AM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  14. - Top - End - #314
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Sooo, in other words, necrotic damage isn't going to damage metal, unless its living or from an anti-matter weapon. Doesn't seem like it will matter terribly much for the purpose of loot conditions.
    No, in other words, necrotic damage is going to damage metal just fine. But most common sources of necrotic damage available to the PCs are spells, and spells are notoriously bad at damaging objects... you can Fireball a sheet of paper, and it'll be set on fire, but takes no damage, and it's similar with other damage types.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

  15. - Top - End - #315
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    No, in other words, necrotic damage is going to damage metal just fine. But most common sources of necrotic damage available to the PCs are spells, and spells are notoriously bad at damaging objects... you can Fireball a sheet of paper, and it'll be set on fire, but takes no damage, and it's similar with other damage types.
    So in practical terms, necrotic damage typically won't harm objects. You can spin hypothetical all you like, but if PCs get access to necrotic damage through spells, and spells typically don't damage objects...
    Last edited by Boci; 2021-09-17 at 06:05 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  16. - Top - End - #316
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    So in practical terms, necrotic damage typically won't harm objects. You can spin hypothetical all you like, but if PCs get access to necrotic damage through spells, and spells typically don't damage objects...
    Enters Summon Undead, whose undead spirit does necrotic damage and can target objects...
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

  17. - Top - End - #317
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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Even if you decided necrotic damage couldn't harm metal, most armor has leather straps and cloth ties and the like that could be ruined by withering/whatever

  18. - Top - End - #318
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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Enters Summon Undead, whose undead spirit does necrotic damage and can target objects...
    Or a scribes wizard with Circle of Death and Chain Lightning. :P

    There's probably some way to add Necrotic to a weapon attack or something as well.

  19. - Top - End - #319
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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Enters Summon Undead, whose undead spirit does necrotic damage and can target objects...
    Right, but the conversations was about unintentionally damaging an enemy's gear whilst trying to defeat them, so Summon Undead and other things that merely allow you to target object would be another miss on this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    Even if you decided necrotic damage couldn't harm metal, most armor has leather straps and cloth ties and the like that could be ruined by withering/whatever
    That's not the issue, its ruling that objects are harmed by spells. So now, the enemy in fullsplate that survives the spell damage should probably have their AC drop to 16, because its a little suspicious that the damage isn't enough to drop their AC, just the resale price. Most mounted enemies are also nerfed by AoE damage now too, since even if mount and rider both survive, the saddles certainly doesn't.
    Last edited by Boci; 2021-09-18 at 02:56 AM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  20. - Top - End - #320
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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Right, but the conversations was about unintentionally damaging an enemy's gear whilst trying to defeat them, so Summon Undead and other things that merely allow you to target object would be another miss on this topic.



    That's not the issue, its ruling that objects are harmed by spells. So now, the enemy in fullsplate that survives the spell damage should probably have their AC drop to 16, because its a little suspicious that the damage isn't enough to drop their AC, just the resale price. Most mounted enemies are also nerfed by AoE damage now too, since even if mount and rider both survive, the saddles certainly doesn't.
    Alternatively, youre overthinking it and spells dont affect equipment at all unless A: they specifically say they do or B: the DM wants to throttle the amount of loot they give out from higher level encounters so that you arent ending up with a dozen suits of plate armor after every fight.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  21. - Top - End - #321
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Alternatively, youre overthinking it and spells dont affect equipment at all unless A: they specifically say they do or B: the DM wants to throttle the amount of loot they give out from higher level encounters so that you arent ending up with a dozen suits of plate armor after every fight.
    Yeah, the second one is going to be a sticking point for some groups and even DMs, who would much rather not have inorganic variance in just how spells interacted with objects and instead just have the DM not use enemies with platemail if they don't want the groups to get platemail. Or just let them have it, there's no magic mart in most 5e games, so even if the players do make a lot money on the secondary platemail market it typically won't matter and will actually just enhance the game by giving them funds to do interesting side gigs during downtime.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  22. - Top - End - #322
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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Yeah, the second one is going to be a sticking point for some groups and even DMs, who would much rather not have inorganic variance in just how spells interacted with objects and instead just have the DM not use enemies with platemail if they don't want the groups to get platemail. Or just let them have it, there's no magic mart in most 5e games, so even if the players do make a lot money on the secondary platemail market it typically won't matter and will actually just enhance the game by giving them funds to do interesting side gigs during downtime.
    I mean, youre welcome to your opinion, but i for one like not being constrained in what enemies i throw at the party by the extra loot they would have on them that the party probably shouldnt have such access to yet.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  23. - Top - End - #323
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, youre welcome to your opinion, but i for one like not being constrained in what enemies i throw at the party by the extra loot they would have on them that the party probably shouldnt have such access to yet.
    Then replace their plate with scale or something, and give them a +x armor bonus via DM fiat to get them back to where they were.

    Or, why do those monsters all have plate at a level where the party can expect to loot them? Given the absolutely ridiculous cost of plate compared to scale, that feels like a problem the poor pricing of equipment has inflicted on DMs.

  24. - Top - End - #324
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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, youre welcome to your opinion, but i for one like not being constrained in what enemies i throw at the party by the extra loot they would have on them that the party probably shouldnt have such access to yet.
    I'd rather be "constrained" on my encounter designs in that I can't use too many medium plated enemies, than have inorganic inconsistent "rules" for how magic effects object.
    Last edited by Boci; 2021-09-18 at 04:17 PM.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  25. - Top - End - #325
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Telwar View Post
    Then replace their plate with scale or something, and give them a +x armor bonus via DM fiat to get them back to where they were.

    Or, why do those monsters all have plate at a level where the party can expect to loot them? Given the absolutely ridiculous cost of plate compared to scale, that feels like a problem the poor pricing of equipment has inflicted on DMs.
    You could argue that an PC is going to want a plate of such quality that it retains its full protective capabilities through intense series of engagements without the PC having to spend days or weeks maintaining and preparing it between fights.

    An NPC might arguably be using other high-maintenance armour that requires the character to replace, fix or adjust for days after a fight. Such an armour might work at full AC for one fight, but offer less protection in the fight immediate
    Ly following.

    Point is: If you want your NPCs to wear plate, and you also want to keep plate out of the hands of the victorious PCs, you can do that.

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarfFighter View Post
    Point is: If you want your NPCs to wear plate, and you also want to keep plate out of the hands of the victorious PCs, you can do that.
    Sure, the DM can, but that doesn't mean the DM could. Like, why is it so important for this hypothetical DM that the NPCs the players fight be wearing full-plate? If the DM doesn't want to fill the loot sacks with full plate pieces, that seems like a good reason to use the armour more sparingly and also employ other armour types in the mix. So why has that solution apparently been rejected?
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    Sure, the DM can, but that doesn't mean the DM could. Like, why is it so important for this hypothetical DM that the NPCs the players fight be wearing full-plate? If the DM doesn't want to fill the loot sacks with full plate pieces, that seems like a good reason to use the armour more sparingly and also employ other armour types in the mix. So why has that solution apparently been rejected?
    Because i want them to wear full plate. If youre suggesting "just dont have them wear plate armor" as a solution to that, i think you may have rather fundamentally misunderstood what it is I'm after.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  28. - Top - End - #328
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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Because i want them to wear full plate. If youre suggesting "just dont have them wear plate armor" as a solution to that, i think you may have rather fundamentally misunderstood what it is I'm after.
    But why? What about having multiple encounters with full plate increases your enjoyment as a DM vs. having one encounter with full plate and then use splint mail or breastplates with the rest?

    In one game I run the enemy some soldier castes, who wore breastplates, and that was good. Because this allowed them to hit hard in ways I would have needed to water down to compensate for them having 18 AC, if I had given them all fullplate, which I feel wouldn't be as memorable for the players if the enemy didn't hit that hard but their attacks missed more. So I guess if you want to NPCs to be hard to hit but otherwise not be too threatening I guess full plate would be an attractive option for that.
    "It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
    You'll never get out of life alive,
    So please kill yourself and save this land,
    And your last mission is to spread my command,"

    Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself

  29. - Top - End - #329
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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    But why? What about having multiple encounters with full plate increases your enjoyment as a DM vs. having one encounter with full plate and then use splint mail or breastplates with the rest?

    In one game I run the enemy some soldier castes, who wore breastplates, and that was good. Because this allowed them to hit hard in ways I would have needed to water down to compensate for them having 18 AC, if I had given them all fullplate, which I feel wouldn't be as memorable for the players if the enemy didn't hit that hard but their attacks missed more. So I guess if you want to NPCs to be hard to hit but otherwise not be too threatening I guess full plate would be an attractive option for that.
    Who said anything about multiple encounters? Maybe i just want to use 3 knights in a fight?
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  30. - Top - End - #330
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: *RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

    Quote Originally Posted by Boci View Post
    In one game I run the enemy some soldier castes, who wore breastplates, and that was good. Because this allowed them to hit hard in ways I would have needed to water down to compensate for them having 18 AC, if I had given them all fullplate, which I feel wouldn't be as memorable for the players if the enemy didn't hit that hard but their attacks missed more. So I guess if you want to NPCs to be hard to hit but otherwise not be too threatening I guess full plate would be an attractive option for that.
    You know you can have enemies that are hard to hit AND hit hard, right? It's not mutually exclusive.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

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