*RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

[Naanomi]

In defense of how 5e AC shakes out, I think what is balanced about different AC sources this edition is that unless you're focusing on it AC caps out around 20. Give or take a couple points. That's much better for the type of game 5e is, where Rogue, Monk, and Fighter are all expected to be able to mix it up in melee.

Even really trying to focus on it, getting it above say... 26?... Required GM supplying magic items

[PhantomSoul]

Even really trying to focus on it, getting it above say... 26?... Required GM supplying magic items

26 might be slightly low for focusing on it (e.g. Bladesinger with Shield), but for non-resource perma-AC sounds plenty fine, and those are specific builds (albeit Shield is an outlier in itself by the numbers, and Shield needs to stack on something special to extend that range).

[Naanomi]

26 might be slightly low for focusing on it (e.g. Bladesinger with Shield), but for non-resource perma-AC sounds plenty fine, and those are specific builds (albeit Shield is an outlier in itself by the numbers, and Shield needs to stack on something special to extend that range).

Right, I was thinking spell-less AC (warforged armorer or armor/forge cleric)

[Christew]

Especially with Plate requiring a rare proficiency and having a stat threshold for a generally-seen-as-inferior stat (you can only wear it effectively with Strength 15), while Studded Leather is more common as a proficiency, has no explicit floor for stat, and while it continues making your AC stat-dependent it's granular/gradient.

EDIT: That's not to say Plate is never good or never worthwhile, it's just a smaller boost than one might expect given all that!

AC is maximizing returns though. The higher your AC is, the more +1 benefits you. So the jump from 11 to 12 may be pretty insignificant, but the jump from 17 to 18 is significantly less so.

[DwarfFighter]

Also worth noting, what is the dex based fighter doing with the extra funds they have form not needing to buy fullplate? Unless there's a magic mart like previous addition assumed was standard, its not like they many great things to buy instead.

In my experience, no fighter ever buys his plate armour, they kill a guy wearing one...

[PhantomSoul]

In my experience, no fighter ever buys his plate armour, they kill a guy wearing one...

Most of the plate-wearing people in the campaigns I'm in have purchased the plate. (Sometimes they got discounts, though, e.g. for services rendered.)

[Naanomi]

Most of the plate-wearing people in the campaigns I'm in have purchased the plate. (Sometimes they got discounts, though, e.g. for services rendered.)

Same, dropping plate in player's hands to resell too often is a quick path to devaluing other loot motivation

[Keltest]

Same, dropping plate in player's hands to resell too often is a quick path to devaluing other loot motivation

Agreed. Enemies with plate armor are intended to be a proper challenge, not a loot dispenser.

[Segev]

Agreed. Enemies with plate armor are intended to be a proper challenge, not a loot dispenser.

Enemies are loot dispensers, regardless of challenge, unless they don't offer any loot at all.

[Naanomi]

Enemies are loot dispensers, regardless of challenge, unless they don't offer any loot at all.

And GMs have to decide if 2 AC per foe is worth 1k more loot value each

[Keltest]

Enemies are loot dispensers, regardless of challenge, unless they don't offer any loot at all.

So theyre loot dispensers except when they arent then?

[Boci]

So theyre loot dispensers except when they arent then?

Yes, "when they aren't" is for when they don't have loot, not when they're "suppose to be a challenge" which somehow magically cancels out the fact that they are wearing very valuable armour. Its platemail, it alone does not make for much of a challenge. Knight for example are challenge 3, so one alone is very quickly going to not be particularly notable foe for the party.

[Carlobrand]

Same, dropping plate in player's hands to resell too often is a quick path to devaluing other loot motivation

That depends on how your milieu is organized. Per the PH, a copper piece buys a pound of flour. Without delving too deeply into economics, that means the gold piece is worth $100-200. That means that 1500 gp (new) armor is worth about $150,000 to $300,000 in modern terms. (We could produce one for a lot less, but we've got these wonderful machines manufacturing really good steel in massive quantities, so the only thing we're really paying for is the skill and time of an armorer who can turn that good steel into a good set of armor.)

Outside of a small city, you aren't going to find too many people with a substantial fraction of 1500 gold burning a hole in their pockets who are also in the market for used armor. The well-to-do already own whatever armor they or their guards need, and someone in that class who might be willing to buy a set is more an act of kindness by the DM than anything else. Best bet short of a trip to the city is to make some deal with a local merchant who might be willing to take it to the city and sell it for you the next time he or his apprentice go there - for a cut of the sale. And, he's not likely to have the gold on hand to pay you up front.

Of course, that's true for pretty much anything of substantial value, but the merchant is more likely to know some local magnate who might be interested in jewelry or magic than he is to find someone local who is shopping for second-hand plate.

[Naanomi]

That depends on how your milieu is organized.

I was thinking more about how many adventures have guys in full plate guarding chests with 100gold. Similar to giant adamantine doors worth more than the total value of everything in the crypts they sealing. It makes the optics on adventuring strange when none of the treasure you are finding is remotely as valuable as your scavenging along the way

[PhoenixPhyre]

I've always taken the "Weapons and armor used by monsters are rarely in good enough condition to sell." line from the PHB to mean that looting plate off of someone you've killed and wearing it isn't practical unless it's magic (in which case it doesn't get battered). At least without significant (and expensive) re-fitting and repair.

[nickl_2000]

I've always taken the "Weapons and armor used by monsters are rarely in good enough condition to sell." line from the PHB to mean that looting plate off of someone you've killed and wearing it isn't practical unless it's magic (in which case it doesn't get battered). At least without significant (and expensive) re-fitting and repair.

Our table takes the "how in the world are you carrying around 2 sets of full plate in your backpack" tactic most of the time.

[Boci]

I've always taken the "Weapons and armor used by monsters are rarely in good enough condition to sell." line from the PHB to mean that looting plate off of someone you've killed and wearing it isn't practical unless it's magic (in which case it doesn't get battered). At least without significant (and expensive) re-fitting and repair.

That's always feels really cheap to me as a player, because the weapons and armour never has a drawback when the enemies use them, and by pure chance, my character is never in the position to buy 30gp fullsplate or 2 gold longbow that is functionally identicle to brand new fullsplate but is second hand and doesn't look quite as immaculate.

Our table takes the "how in the world are you carrying around 2 sets of full plate in your backpack" tactic most of the time.

This is a good way of limiting that, though of course party and location dependant, some work arounds may present themselves.

[Willie the Duck]

I've always used the "disposable humanoid opponents at lower levels where the same scale, chain, and leather armor that 1st level PCs get (and if they have a higher AC then that would suggest, it is because as NPCs they can get defensive fighting style twice or whatever I need to explain it)" line instead. The cheap armor is there almost exactly for that reason.

[nickl_2000]

This is a good way of limiting that, though of course party and location dependant, some work arounds may present themselves.

Hence why we use it most of the time. My table also allows for buying of magical items from a magic mart, so there is tighter control on how much money the PCs get.

I've always used the "disposable humanoid opponents at lower levels where the same scale, chain, and leather armor that 1st level PCs get (and if they have a higher AC then that would suggest, it is because as NPCs they can get defensive fighting style twice or whatever I need to explain it)" line instead. The cheap armor is there almost exactly for that reason.

Ohh the good ol' fashioned "Don't ask why their AC is so high, NPCs cheat" argument

[Willie the Duck]

Ohh the good ol' fashioned "Don't ask why their AC is so high, NPCs cheat" argument

I mean, cheating codified in the rules, so I wouldn't call it cheating.

Point being, the distinction between 'monsters' you run into with weapons and those with claws and fangs is that you can strip the former for gear and the latter for pelts and trophies. That's why early drow had equipment that decayed in sunlight -- to make them a deliberate exception to that structure. Otherwise, if you don't want your PCs to get stuff, don't give it to the bandits you throw against them, not make it mysteriously unusable. YMMV.

[Keltest]

That's always feels really cheap to me as a player, because the weapons and armour never has a drawback when the enemies use them, and by pure chance, my character is never in the position to buy 30gp fullsplate or 2 gold longbow that is functionally identicle to brand new fullsplate but is second hand and doesn't look quite as immaculate.

I would suggest the drawback is that they got, you know, killed while wearing it. It was presumably fine until the PCs came and filled it with stab wounds/melted it with a fireball/disintegrated it.

[Carlobrand]

Our table takes the "how in the world are you carrying around 2 sets of full plate in your backpack" tactic most of the time.

Sadly, there are too many options available to the savvy player for that to work well. Pack mules are relatively cheap and can carry their supply needs on their back. If you don't have a pack mule, throwing together a travois is not terribly difficult, nor is bundling the armor to a pole and having the pole carried between two party members; in either case, it can be dropped instantly if danger rears its head. It's a burden, sure, but if they're committed to getting the thing back to town, they'll find a way to do it.

I prefer reasons that make sense to the player and help flesh out the milieu. The armor clearly failed its owner, so clearly it's got some damage unless you managed to bespell the poor sap and slit his throat. However, go too far down that road and you're having to justify the players not spending money to maintain their own battered armor. - which is not a bad idea but not all players are going to appreciate having to spend on armor repair. (Does make that Mending spell more useful though.) And too, there's always a little value to be had because the armorer can save himself time and work by salvaging pieces out of the set to incorporate into whatever he's working on, and the finished steel of a damage carapace can be worked into greaves or forearm protection or what have you. So they haul in that plate, make a deal with the merchant, and a week later they have maybe 200-300 gold to show for it, not a bad profit but not a gamebreaker either.

[nickl_2000]

I mean, cheating codified in the rules, so I wouldn't call it cheating.

Point being, the distinction between 'monsters' you run into with weapons and those with claws and fangs is that you can strip the former for gear and the latter for pelts and trophies. That's why early drow had equipment that decayed in sunlight -- to make them a deliberate exception to that structure. Otherwise, if you don't want your PCs to get stuff, don't give it to the bandits you throw against them, not make it mysteriously unusable. YMMV.

Oh, I didn't say there was anything wrong with NPC stat blocks cheating. It's a tried and true, legal method of creating monsters. Considering the players never need to actually see the NPCs stat block, you really don't need to justify anything in it as long as the CR calculation stands up.

[Telwar]

I would suggest the drawback is that they got, you know, killed while wearing it. It was presumably fine until the PCs came and filled it with stab wounds/melted it with a fireball/disintegrated it.

To be fair, though, is the fighter who's dropped to 0 required to get new armor and weapons now that they've been run through/swam in acid/ate a disintegrate ray/stepped on by a giant?

If not, then why wouldn't NPC gear be usable, especially if they only dropped to psychic damage? Especially if the PCs get a chance to repair it?

[Segev]

To be fair, though, is the fighter who's dropped to 0 required to get new armor and weapons now that they've been run through/swam in acid/ate a disintegrate ray/stepped on by a giant?

If not, then why wouldn't NPC gear be usable, especially if they only dropped to psychic damage? Especially if the PCs get a chance to repair it?

Healing spells obviously repair armor iff the wounded person is still wearing it.

[Boci]

I would suggest the drawback is that they got, you know, killed while wearing it. It was presumably fine until the PCs came and filled it with stab wounds/melted it with a fireball/disintegrated it.

Won't apply as much to weapons, and now you're introducing hard mechanics for damage type, since I doubt necrotic damage has much effect on metal, unless it can now also rust iron doors suddenly. Plus mending is a cantrip the party might have,

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's always feels really cheap to me as a player, because the weapons and armour never has a drawback when the enemies use them, and by pure chance, my character is never in the position to buy 30gp fullsplate or 2 gold longbow that is functionally identicle to brand new fullsplate but is second hand and doesn't look quite as immaculate.

A few possibilities--

1. mundane armor needs re-fitting. Which is tons of work if it's possible at all. Full plate is not (contrary to what many believe) an off-the-rack sort of thing. It has to be fitted to the individual for full coverage.
2. Their gear is low quality. Within the abstraction, sure. That doesn't matter. But you really don't want to use that, it might break at any time.
3. The process of offing the previous owner made it less-than-useable.

#2 I don't like so much, but #1 and #3 are solid reasons. Second-hand gear generally isn't available. And as far as "he only took psychic damage", that's why the PHB says "usually" (ie not always, but most of the time). In a case where you had someone of the same basic size/build and they only took psychic, poison, force[1], necrotic, and/or radiant damage, I'd let them have their plate armor.

[1] I use force as "attacking the soul/bonds that tie body to spirit directly" damage

[Dark.Revenant]

The DM decides if and for how much an NPC might buy something. Used plate armor is pretty much only going to be desired by aspiring men-at-arms, less-affluent knights, and lower-level adventurers who haven’t been able to afford the good stuff (yet) and would be willing to pay for the used set at a steep discount, with the knowledge that modifications would need to be made to the armor out of pocket in order to be usable.

That’s not a large clientele. If you took it to an ordinary garrison armorer to sell, he’d probably scratch his face and say, “I’ll give ye a century of gold for it, and ye won’t find a better deal in thirty miles.”

[Boci]

A few possibilities--

1. mundane armor needs re-fitting. Which is tons of work if it's possible at all. Full plate is not (contrary to what many believe) an off-the-rack sort of thing. It has to be fitted to the individual for full coverage.
2. Their gear is low quality. Within the abstraction, sure. That doesn't matter. But you really don't want to use that, it might break at any time.
3. The process of offing the previous owner made it less-than-useable.

#2 I don't like so much, but #1 and #3 are solid reasons. Second-hand gear generally isn't available. And as far as "he only took psychic damage", that's why the PHB says "usually" (ie not always, but most of the time). In a case where you had someone of the same basic size/build and they only took psychic, poison, force[1], necrotic, and/or radiant damage, I'd let them have their plate armor.

[1] I use force as "attacking the soul/bonds that tie body to spirit directly" damage

And what about stabbing damage and then the mending cantrip, or just repairing it?

And as for form fitted, does that mean party members can't share fullplate between themselves? What about dispatching an enemy with psychic damage only, does that also ensure their form happens to be close enough that it doesn't need resizing? And if it does need resizing, can a player do that? What would they require, proficiency, some actual checks, how long?

The DM decides if and for how much an NPC might buy something. Used plate armor is pretty much only going to be desired by aspiring men-at-arms, less-affluent knights, and lower-level adventurers who haven’t been able to afford the good stuff (yet) and would be willing to pay for the used set at a steep discount, with the knowledge that modifications would need to be made to the armor out of pocket in order to be usable.

That’s not a large clientele. If you took it to an ordinary garrison armorer to sell, he’d probably scratch his face and say, “I’ll give ye a century of gold for it, and ye won’t find a better deal in thirty miles.”

And can players ever buy used platemail for 100 gold? What AC do you have for wearing it?

[PhoenixPhyre]

And what about stabbing damage and then the mending cantrip, or just repairing it?

And as for form fitted, does that mean party members can't share fullplate between themselves? What about dispatching an enemy with psychic damage only, does that also ensure their form happens to be close enough that it doesn't need resizing? And if it does need resizing, can a player do that? What would they require, proficiency, some actual checks, how long?

Note the AND in that. Refitting (more than just "tightening/losening straps") is going to require a professional. Or at least a professional-level forge and proficiency in blacksmith's tools. As for time, I'd say it'd depend. But definitely less than making a full set. I'd probably hand wave it and say "minimum 1 work week of downtime for a character, a few days for a dedicated professional" and "250 gp" cost. More extreme cases would be, of course, more extreme. If you had plate made for a pixie and tried to fit it to a medium character, you're going to be paying for new plate armor entirely. Or cutting down plate for a giant for a halfling. But in-between, not so much an issue.

"Close enough", for my purposes (because I'm lazy) generally means "same body shape (ie no extra/missing limbs/wings/etc)" and "same size category".

So taking plate armor off of a giant? Yeah, it's going to be scrap value at most. Will require a full rework. Take plate off a halfling and try to use it for a goliath? Yeah, no. But one human for another human? Likely not an issue.