*RANT* Leather Armor Bothers me

[Hytheter]

So if you have a bunch of giant eelskin laying around you just toss it in the trash?

If the process to convert it to armour costs more than 45gp, absolutely. And if it was that cheap, it wouldn't be a rare item worth thousands of gold.

[Naanomi]

Yeah looking only at PC use and market value, there are only a handful that anyone would ever bother enchanting... Studded leather, breastplate, half plate, ring, chain, and plate (and leather/hide depending on GM reading of how hard non-metal alternatives are to come by for druids)

Just like how there are several weapons you'd never enchant

If the process to convert it to armour costs more than 45gp, absolutely. And if it was that cheap, it wouldn't be a rare item worth thousands of gold.

Well than what if it was? What if the hunters only pull up a giant purple eel intact every 10,000 years, but it rots away quickly unless enchanted. Except for some decorative stuff, the only use is to enchant magic leather armor; and virtually all of the cost of the end product is because of how rare is he eelskin is to begin with.

Then of course the shaman enchant it; maybe trying to make armor of swimming but the process is tricky and doesn't usually work. You sell or trade away most of it, for the status and novelty more than the protective value but it isn't shabby in war either. (Plus it resizes and resists corrosion and all the other basic magic item stuff as a bonus). And thus +1 leather disseminates into treasure chests and onto monster backs around the world.

[Valmark]

Yes, other non magical options. So if a player doesn't know studded leather exist, sure +1 leather looks like a neat upgrade. But if they are aware of this basic information then +1 leather seems lackluster not as a magical item, but as a very, very mild upgrade to a 45 gold mundane item.

You called out +1 equipment, but whatever.

Really, the basic premise of the OP applies pretty broadly. Unless it's chainmail of the Effrete or whatever, why would you bother to enchant anything but the top armor in the category? I mean, +2 chain would be more expensive than plate armor and no better for example.

This. Light armor specifically, I have way more problems with justifying padded armor- the advantages over leather are smaller then the advantages over studded and it has an added disadvantage.

[Boci]

You called out +1 equipment, but whatever.

An item can have multiple things wrong with it. And being lackluster compared to other magical items and a common mundane item is a good example of this.

Except for some decorative stuff, the only use is to enchant magic leather armor; and virtually all of the cost of the end product is because of how rare is he eelskin is to begin with.

But unless the village cannot make studded leather, using the eel skin for decoration seems equally valid. You're putting a lot of effort into justify the existence of +1 leather armour with not insignificant world building requirements, when you could just make +1 armour more exciting by giving it a secondary minor ability, as other posters have pointed out.

[JackPhoenix]

This. Light armor specifically, I have way more problems with justifying padded armor- the advantages over leather are smaller then the advantages over studded and it has an added disadvantage.

Padded armor looks cooler. That's an undisputable fact.

[nickl_2000]

Well than what if it was? What if the hunters only pull up a giant purple eel intact every 10,000 years, but it rots away quickly unless enchanted. Except for some decorative stuff, the only use is to enchant magic leather armor; and virtually all of the cost of the end product is because of how rare is he eelskin is to begin with.

Then of course the shaman enchant it; maybe trying to make armor of swimming but the process is tricky and doesn't usually work. You sell or trade away most of it, for the status and novelty more than the protective value but it isn't shabby in war either. (Plus it resizes and resists corrosion and all the other basic magic item stuff as a bonus). And thus +1 leather disseminates into treasure chests and onto monster backs around the world.

That's a lot of ifs... That being said, its a magical world so why not. This does absolutely give in world reasons for it to exist, although in a situation where only one is pulled up every 10,000 years and not all armor is successfully made it sounds like it would be a special ceremonial garb where there would be very few copies. However, this is something that differentiates it from a mundane plate, the story behind it.

[Naanomi]

But unless the village cannot make studded leather, using the eel skin for decoration seems equally valid.

Functionally they are... Decorative armor

not all armor is successfully made

Sorry, I meant the shamans are trying to make 'leather armor of swim speed and breath underwater', but if they fail it still ends up as leather armor +1

[Boci]

Functionally they are... Decorative armor

So, a hunter gathering tribal society is producing a decorative ceremonial armour every 10k years?

[Naanomi]

So, a hunter gathering tribal society is producing a decorative ceremonial armour every 10k years?

The 10k year time frame is probably too long, but sure why not, magic armor doesn't fall apart over time after all. They make a dozen suits from the kill, if they have lost any they gift their chieftain and top hunters a set, and use the rest as supremely valuable trade goods with their close allies.

[Boci]

The 10k year time frame is probably too long, but sure why not, magic armor doesn't fall apart over time after all. They make a dozen suits from the kill, if they have lost any they gift their chieftain and top hunters a set, and use the rest as supremely valuable trade goods with their close allies.

That's still less than 1 suit every 800 years. I know D&D worlds tend to be stasis locked, but you don't have t lean into that aspect so hard.

Really though I just don't see what the point is, or how this will add to the game, other than letting the DM say "Um actually" when the player bitch about finding +1 leather and how pointless crafting such a thing would be. It seems more interesting and fun to just give the +1 leather some secondary ability, like the swim one you mentioned but had the shaman fail to achieve.

[Amechra]

Honestly, I think you could cut the armor table down to seven entries (eight if you really wanted to keep Hide around) without losing anything. Those entries being:

• Studded Leather (light)
• Scale Mail (medium)
• Breastplate (medium)
• Half-Plate (medium)
• Chain Mail (heavy)
• Splint (heavy)
• Plate (heavy)

Then you have a clear hierarchy:

Light armor users purely upgrade their AC through improving their dexterity. Even if your dexterity isn't great, wearing Studded Leather is better than wearing nothing.
Medium armor users partially upgrade their AC through improving their dexterity (and taking the Medium Armor Master feat), and partially upgrade it through buying better armor. They also get the option of using shields, which are Very Good.
Heavy armor users purely upgrade their AC through buying better armor. They also can use shields, and don't have to care about dexterity in the slightest.

If you did this, I'd also revise the Medium Armor Master feat to be a flat +1 AC and no disadvantage on stealth while wearing medium armor (with maybe a +1 to Str or Dex if that still feels too weak).

/rant

[Tanarii]

Just because some murderhobo adventurers don't have to worry about money shouldn't mean it's not a balancing factor.

The difference in cost between leather and studded leather is going to mean a lot when you're equipping a couple of thousand troops.

[Naanomi]

That's still less than 1 suit every 800 years. I know D&D worlds tend to be stasis locked, but you don't have t lean into that aspect so hard.

Really though I just don't see what the point is, or how this will add to the game, other than letting the DM say "Um actually" when the player bitch about finding +1 leather and how pointless crafting such a thing would be. It seems more interesting and fun to just give the +1 leather some secondary ability, like the swim one you mentioned but had the shaman fail to achieve.

The 10k years was arbitrary. Make or 100 years, 50 years, whatever.

I can't think of anyone a player has 'bitched about loot' (though I rarely randomize such things at my table)... But the efficacy here kinds of depends on my goals. If I want to model a rational tribal economy, probably this fails. If I want to put rational backstory to the leather armor +1 in a stash (probably the only in the campaign, magic items are not rolled that often) then I think this does a fine job

[Sorinth]

Put me in the camp that would rather they remove studded leather making regular leather the default light armour.

As to why non-optimal weapons and armor, the simplest explanation is areas of heavy magic. If the weapon/armour sits in a dragon's hoard for a couple centuries the simple closeness to the dragon imbues the item with magic, similarly an area flooded with wild magic surges will over time imbue items left there with magic.

[Boci]

The 10k years was arbitrary. Make or 100 years, 50 years, whatever.

I can't think of anyone a player has 'bitched about loot' (though I rarely randomize such things at my table)... But the efficacy here kinds of depends on my goals. If I want to model a rational tribal economy, probably this fails. If I want to put rational backstory to the leather armor +1 in a stash (probably the only in the campaign, magic items are not rolled that often) then I think this does a fine job

But if you want to give that much of a backstory to a suit of magical armour, wouldn't you want players to keep it because they found it cool and fun? Maybe some players are interested in glorified studded mail, but I feel adding some extra ability, even a minor one like something that helps with swimming, or electric resistance 1/short rest if the eel happened to be electric, would greatly broaden the item's appeal.

[Naanomi]

But if you want to give that much of a backstory to a suit of magical armour, wouldn't you want players to keep it because they found it cool and fun? Maybe some players are interested in glorified studded mail, but I feel adding some extra ability, even a minor one like something that helps with swimming, or electric resistance 1/short rest if the eel happened to be electric, would greatly broaden the item's appeal.

I think of the place in the setting for every magic item (barring sometimes scrolls and potions), doesn't everyone do that?

[Boci]

I think of the place in the setting for every magic item (barring sometimes scrolls and potions), doesn't everyone do that?

But presumably not every magical item is that interesting. I assume sometimes a +1 warhammer is "This was commissioned for a noble's son, he fought with it and was buried with it", which is a perfectly functional backstory for a magic weapon, but not as interesting as "this +1 leather armour comes from a tribe that hunted very rare giant purple eels every 100 years, meticulously skinned them and then had the shaman enchant them trying to capture the eel's swimming power". And if I came up with a backstory like that for an item, which I do sometimes, I would want it to be mechanically interesting enough to catch the player's attention not, "Huh, so this is basically studded leather. Well we can always sell it". vs. "huh, so studded leather, but it also gives (insert minor bonus ability). I guess I'll wear it"

[Amechra]

The difference in cost between leather and studded leather is going to mean a lot when you're equipping a couple of thousand troops.

Eh, if you're a pre-modern culture that's actually planning on having a professional military, you can afford to give them the good stuff. If you aren't, just delegate the whole "find equipment for your soldiers" thing to the people who swore fealty to you. Yeah, sure, that's probably going to result in a lot of peasant soldiers being dragged to war with a spear, a helmet, and maybe a shield, but you're the one who wanted the cheap option.

[Boci]

Eh, if you're a pre-modern culture that's actually planning on having a professional military, you can afford to give them the good stuff. If you aren't, just delegate the whole "find equipment for your soldiers" thing to the people who swore fealty to you. Yeah, sure, that's probably going to result in a lot of peasant soldiers being dragged to war with a spear, a helmet, and maybe a shield, but you're the one who wanted the cheap option.

Padded armour is 5 gold, so even peasant would likely have it if they've been given spears and shields. Sure, maybe it should be moved to the DMG, but I can see an argument for keeping them in the game.

[Naanomi]

Eh, if you're a pre-modern culture that's actually planning on having a professional military, you can afford to give them the good stuff. If you aren't, just delegate the whole "find equipment for your soldiers" thing to the people who swore fealty to you. Yeah, sure, that's probably going to result in a lot of peasant soldiers being dragged to war with a spear, a helmet, and maybe a shield, but you're the one who wanted the cheap option.

Which is why every Greek soldier had a breastplate and full greaves and... Oh wait...

[Tanarii]

Eh, if you're a pre-modern culture that's actually planning on having a professional military, you can afford to give them the good stuff. If you aren't, just delegate the whole "find equipment for your soldiers" thing to the people who swore fealty to you. Yeah, sure, that's probably going to result in a lot of peasant soldiers being dragged to war with a spear, a helmet, and maybe a shield, but you're the one who wanted the cheap option.

If you've got the bodies, you can equip 4.5x the troops in Leather as Studded leather. That probably means something like a 15% reduction in losses to all your troops, instead of a 20% reduction in losses to less than 1/5 of them.

Of course, hide cost only 2x leather for the same benefit as Studded, since most of your troops probably won't have +3 Dex. And Ring Mail is only 3x, and provided better protection to anyone without a +1 Dex. Basically, studded leather probably never gets seen in use outside of adventurers.

As far as enchanting goes ... adventurers are the ones that can afford to pay for such things. So it's a good argument that you probably shouldn't see it enchanted that much.

[Catullus64]

The circumstance described by the OP, where ostensibly more valuable magical Leather is of equal quality to the much cheaper Studded Leather, seems like just another reason why generic +X weapons and armor should be a thing of the past. This is coming from someone who deeply does not miss the Enhancement Bonus/Armor Check Penalty meta of 3rd Edition, of which this problem seems like a vestigial remnant.

I also share many people's aesthetic complaints about prevalence of Leather & Studded Leather Armor in the game, but aesthetic complaints are also easier to fix by simply appealing to the DM; I've never had a DM so intolerant that they said "no, you're not allowed to describe your Studded Leather as something more historically plausible, you have to describe it like what's in the book."

[Naanomi]

The circumstance described by the OP, where ostensibly more valuable magical Leather is of equal quality to the much cheaper Studded Leather, seems like just another reason why generic +X weapons and armor should be a thing of the past. This is coming from someone who deeply does not miss the Enhancement Bonus/Armor Check Penalty meta of 3rd Edition, of which this problem seems like a vestigial remnant

While I agree in practice and rarely use 'plain' magic items much; there are a *lot* of fictional and mythological weapons that are basically 'um, a sword but like... Better...'

[Amechra]

Which is why every Greek soldier had a breastplate and full greaves and... Oh wait...

You're probably thinking of hoplites, who were all (comparatively) rich people.

[BRC]

The circumstance described by the OP, where ostensibly more valuable magical Leather is of equal quality to the much cheaper Studded Leather, seems like just another reason why generic +X weapons and armor should be a thing of the past. This is coming from someone who deeply does not miss the Enhancement Bonus/Armor Check Penalty meta of 3rd Edition, of which this problem seems like a vestigial remnant.

I also share many people's aesthetic complaints about prevalence of Leather & Studded Leather Armor in the game, but aesthetic complaints are also easier to fix by simply appealing to the DM; I've never had a DM so intolerant that they said "no, you're not allowed to describe your Studded Leather as something more historically plausible, you have to describe it like what's in the book."

Agreed here.

I'm generally of the opinion that what's more important for the various armor types is some sense of "How hard is this to acquire" than a literal description.

Like, for Leather vs Studded Leather, I'd say that Studded Leather is "Any light armor that is somewhat tricky to make or acquire" while Leather armor is "Light armor that is easy to acquire".

"Studded Leather" can be "Leather made from rare, especially tough hides" or "Especially well crafted leather armor" or "Cloth armor woven from specially treated giant spider silk". The Important thing is that it's easy to move in, provides decent protection, and costs about 45 gold pieces.

Plain +1 magic leather armor, with the exception of somebody who pulls out the old "Druids can't wear any metal" thing...is kind of a waste of a spot on the magic item table, unless it's coming with some other cool effect, and the +1 is just there to make it AC equal to studded leather, but aesthetically just plain leather.

Which seems like a waste of game text to me, vs saying "This is Studded Leather Armor with the following effect".

[Catullus64]

While I agree in practice and rarely use 'plain' magic items much; there are a *lot* of fictional and mythological weapons that are basically 'um, a sword but like... Better...'

But even the "like a sword, but better" mythical weapons did stuff like cleaving through three men at a time, piercing through solid steel, or, in some cases, being metaphysically deadly, such that they are incapable of striking someone without killing them. Hardly the stuff of a 5-15% increase in the probability of landing a slightly-more-than-normal blow.

[Dark.Revenant]

To be fair, from the perspective of an average Joe with a +1 ability modifier and proficiency, something like a +1 longsword is mechanically about 25–30% deadlier than its mundane counterpart. That's not nothing. But yes, I do agree that plain +X bonuses are boring and should be replaced or augmented with more interesting traits.

[Clistenes]

Why not just rename studded leather to brigandine armour? Or would brigandine armour be medium?

Brigandine should be similar to Breastplate. Scale Armour is as good as Breastplate, just noisier... and Brigandine is basically Scale Armour between two layers of cloth or leather, so probably less noisy than Scale Armour...

You could also made Brigandine similar to Chain Shirt, if it lacks sleeves and skirt (unlike the Scale Armour).

As for Leather Armour, Scale Mail and Ring Mail... there shouldn't be magical versions of these. They should be restricted to poor people who can't afford Studded Leather, Breastplates or Half Plates.

Studded Leather Armour isn't historical, but you can claim that it's Leather Armour with some scales or plates protecting key places, just like the greek linothorax was made of linen as main material, but it had bronze plates and scales as reinforcement... or you could just call it Linothorax and be done with it...

Ring Mail didn't exist either, but I guess you could call it Lamellar Armour. Historical lamellar armour wasn't inferior to Chain Mail (hauberk), but since most historical lamellar lacked protection for arms and legs, I guess that could explain why it offers less protection than Chain Mail.

EDIT: Some time ago I made an armour table replacing the armour names with other more historically correct ones:

I don't like the stats of armor we are given in the Player Handbook, and I thought of replacing it with something more similar to historical armor.

What I have thought is this:

Armor (all include a helmet)	Cost	Armor Class	Strength	Stealth	Weight
Light Armor
Light Gambeson (usually worn under mail) Linothorax without metal reinforcement. Leather Coleto (a buffalo leather cuirass used by Spanish arquabusiers) Buff Coat (similar to those used by Cromwell’s New Model Army)	10 gp	11+Dex modifier			8 lb.
Padded Jack (layers of linen faced with heavy canvas of flexible leather) Chinese Paper and Cloth Armor	15 gp	12+Dex modifier		Disadvantage (making it thick enough to resist axes blows and sword slashes also makes it harder to sneak around uninhindered).	10 lb.
Buffalo or Elkskin-faced Padded Jack with metal reinforcement in key areas (vambraces, greaves, gorget or aventail) Boiled Leather Cuirass combined with Padding (CuChulainn’s armor) Boiled Leather Lamellar combined with Padding (mongolian armor) Linothorax with metal scales and plates.	45 gp	12+Dex modifier			13 lb.
Medium Armor (all include padding)
Chain Shirt Brigandine (without sleeves or leggins)	50 gp	13+Dex modifier (max 2)			20 lb.
Scale Mail	50 gp	14+Dex modifier (max 2)		Disadvantage	45 lb.
Breastplate Banded Plate (classic Roman Legionnaire armor)	100 gp	14+Dex modifier (max 2)			20 lb.
Half Plate	750 gp	15+Dex modifier (max 2)		Disadvantage	40 lb.
Heavy Armor (all include padding)
Chain Mail (Hauberk)	75 gp	15	Str 13	Disadvantage	55 lb.
Brigandine (with chainmail sleeves and leggins)	125 gp	16	Str 13	Disadvantage	55 lb.
Cataphract Armor Brigandine (with plate or splint arms and legs protection) Steel Lamellar (with plate or splint arms and legs protection)	400 gp	17	Str 15	Disadvantage	60 lb.
Plate	1500 gp	18	Str 15	Disadvantage	65 lb.
Shield
Shield	10 gp	+2			6 lb.

[Kane0]

I have to laugh, I replaced the entire weapons & armor tables with:

Armor:
Light (cheap): AC 11 + Dex (max 5) eg. cloth
Light (quality): AC 13 + Dex (max 5) eg. lamellar
Medium (cheap): AC 13 + Dex (max 3) eg. scale
Medium (quality): AC 15 + Dex (max 3) eg. chain
Heavy (cheap): AC 15 + Dex (max 1), Requires Str 13 eg. splint
Heavy (quality): AC 17 + Dex (max 1) Requires Str 15 eg. plate

Small shield: +1 AC, interaction to don/doff, requires light armor proficiency
Big shield: +2 AC, action to don/doff, requires medium armor proficiency

Simple Weapons:
Dagger: 1d4 Light, Finesse, Thrown (20' / 60')
Bludgeon: 1d6 Light, Finesse
Thrown: 1d6 Light, Thrown (40' / 120')
Staff: 1d6 Versatile
Spear: 1d6 Reach
Sling: 1d6 Ranged, Ammunition (80' / 320')

Martial Weapons:
Axe/Flail/Hammer/Pick: 1d8 Versatile
Polearm: 1d10 Reach, Two Handed
Sword: 1d6 Finesse, Light, Versatile
Zweihander: 1d12 or 2d6 Two Handed
Bow: 1d8 Ranged, Ammunition (120' / 480'), Two Handed
Crossbow: 1d10 Ranged, Ammunition (100' / 400'), Loading, Two Handed

Note: Thrown weapons can be drawn freely like ammunition.

[zlefin]

I wonder when they decided to make +1 always cost the same amount no matter what was enchanted. I know 3.5 had it that way as well; but I don't remember for editions before that. In videogames that aren't directly adapted from a system, they tend to just tweak the cost so most things are reasonable (my vague memories of bards tale).

Is the clarity/simplicity of a +1 always costing the same amount worth the effect of it limiting which items are worth enchanting?