Clericzilla, Domains/Feats/Buffs?

[Anthrowhale]

Here's an attempt to create a clericzilla.

At level 1, something like a barbarian except that you have fewer hit points, can heal, and use enlarge person instead of rage.

Spoiler: level 1

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L1 Neutral Good Human Cloistered Cleric of Io[Spontaneous Strength, Travel Devotion, Knowledge]
Str 16/Dex 14/Con 14/Int 8/Wis 14/Cha 14
Human: Combat Reflexes
L1: Improved Initiative
5 Turn Undeads.
80gp out of 125 gp = Longspear (5gp), Morningstar (5gp), Light Crossbow (35gp), 30 bolts (3gp), Studded leather (25gp), Heavy Wood Shield (7gp)
Initiative: +6
AC: 15
Spells: 3/2+1
Enlarged Longspear or Morningstar: +3 attack, 2d6+6 damage

At level 6, persistent spells have begun to come online, but the second iterative has not. An average of 25 damage with a touch attack and AC:No is a solid frontliner.

Spoiler: level 6

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L6 Neutral Good Human Cloistered Cleric of Io[Spontaneous Spell or Strength, Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion]
Human: Extend Spell
L1: Persistent Spell
L3: DMM[Persistent Spell]
L6: Southern Magician
7=5+2(Reliquary Holy Symbol) Turn Undeads
1 persistent spell/day
<13k gp = Reliquary Holy Symbol(1k gp), Lesser Rod of Extend Spell(3k gp), Mithril Reinforced Chain Shirt (1k gp), Masterwork Chahar-Aina (225 gp), Masterwork dastana (175 gp), Item+2 Wis(4k gp), Psychic Reformation
Initiative: +2
AC: 27
Spells: 5/4+1/4+1/3+1
Extended Persistent Alter Self[Crucian], Extended Persistent Ice Axe, Extended Heroics[Power Attack], Divine Insight x3, Sense Weakness x1
Enlarged Longspear: +5(=+3 base +4 Str -1 size +2 knowledge devotion -3 power attack) touch attack, 2d12+14 (=+6 spell, +2 knowledge Devotion, +6 power attack) damage

At level 12 the cleric has blown through anything resembling balance with 4 touch attacks dealing an expected 300+ damage that brutalizes the monsters.

Spoiler: level 12

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L12 Neutral Good Human Cloistered Cleric of Io[Spontaneous Spell or Strength, Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion]
Human: Extend Spell
L1: Persistent Spell
L3: DMM[Persistent Spell]
L6: Southern Magician
L9: Extra Turning
L12: Extra Turning
21=5+2(Reliquary Holy Symbol)+4(Nightstick)+2(Eagle's Splendor)+8(Extra Turning) Turn Undeads
3 persistent spells/day
<88k gp = Reliquary Holy Symbol(1k gp), 2x Lesser Rod of Extend Spell(6k gp), Nightstick (7k gp), Rod of Extend Spell(11K), Mithril Reinforced Chain Shirt (1k gp), Masterwork Chahar-Aina (225 gp), Masterwork dastana (175 gp), Item+4 Wis(16K), Bead of Karma (20k gp)

Initiative: +8
AC: 37
Spells: 6/6+1/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1
Extended Persistent Draconic Polymorph[War Troll], Extended Persistent Sun Scepter
Extended Persistent Divine Power, Extended Persistent Lesser Holy Transformation
Extended Persistent Righteous Might, Extended Persistent Righteous Wrath of the Faithful

Extended Greater Mighty Wallop, Extendeded Greater Magic Weapon, Extended Magic Vestment
Extended Heroics[Power Attack], Extended Heroics[Combat Reflexes], Extended Heorics[Improved Initiative]
Extended Girallon's Blessing, Extended Fuse Arms

Divine Insight x3, Sense Weakness, Surge of Fortune

Strength 57=31(War Troll)+8(Draconic Polymorph)+6(Enhance)+4(Fuse Arms)+8(Righteous Might)

Colossal Sun Scepter: +29/+29/+24/+19 (=+12 base +23 Str -1 size +3 knowledge devotion +4 enhance -12 power attack) touch attack, 8d6+65 (=+34 Str, +3 knowledge Devotion, +4 enhance, +24 power attack) +Disruption +Flaming Burst +Axiomatic damage +Dazing Blow (DC 27)

By level 20, you are dealing 130 damage/hit with 5 attacks/round against flatfooted touch ACs for 600+ damage/round. That's before you pull out a vorpal blade and Sense Weakness + Surge of Fortune for infinite damage against single-headed opponents.

Spoiler: level 20

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L20 Neutral Good Human Cloistered Cleric of Io[Spontaneous Spell or Strength, Travel Devotion, Knowledge Devotion]
Human: Extend Spell
L1: Persistent Spell
L3: DMM[Persistent Spell]
L6: Southern Magician
L9: Extra Turning
L12: Extra Turning
L15: Assume Supernatural Ability[Free Metamagic]
L18: Easy Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
24=5+2(Reliquary Holy Symbol)+4(Nightstick)+3(enhance)+2(Inner Beauty)+8(Extra Turning) Turn Undeads
6 persistent spells/day

<760k gp = Reliquary Holy Symbol(1k gp), 2x Lesser Rod of Extend Spell(6k gp), Nightstick (7k), Rod of Extend Spell(11K), Mithril Reinforced Chain Shirt (1k), Masterwork Chahar-Aina (225), Masterwork dastana (175), Item+6 Wis(36K), Item+6 Cha(36k), Bead of Karma (20k), Animated Shield+1(16k), Str+5(inherent), item+6 Con(36K)

Initiative: +8
AC: 52
Spells: 6/6+1/5+1/5+1/4+1/3+1/2+1
Extended Persistent Draconic Polymorph[War Troll], Extended Persistent Sun Scepter
Extended Persistent Divine Power, Extended Persistent Elation
Extended Persistent Divine Favor, Extended Persistent Righteous Wrath of the Faithful
Extended Persistent Holy Star, Extended Persistent Greater Visage of the Deity
Extended Persistent Greater Blink, Extended Persistent Miracle[Bite of the Werebear]
Extended Persistent Holy Transformation, Extended Persistent Righteous Might

Extended Greater Mighty Wallop, Extendeded Greater Magic Weapon, 2x Extended Magic Vestment
Extended Heroics[Power Attack], Extended Heroics[Combat Reflexes], Extended Heorics[Improved Initiative]
Extended Girallon's Blessing, Extended Fuse Arms

Divine Insight, Sense Weakness, Surge of Fortune

Strength 80=31(War Troll)+8(Draconic Polymorph)+16(Enhance)+4(Fuse Arms)+8(Righteous Might)+4(GVotD)+4(Holy Transformation)+5(inherent)

Colossal Sun Scepter: +39/+39/+34/+29/+24 (=+20 base +35 Str -1 size +5 knowledge devotion +5 enhance -20 power attack) touch attack, 8d6+102 (=+52 Str, +5 knowledge Devotion, +5 enhance, +40 power attack) +Disruption +Flaming Burst +Axiomatic damage +Dazing Blow (DC 32)

This is only moderately optimized, but this seems sufficient to illustrate the point. Clerics usually aren't optimized for damage, because they can do many other useful things instead.

[Akal Saris]

One thing that bugs me is that I've frequently seen clerics recommended as archers, but unless you're playing with flaws (for more feats) it's actually pretty hard to make a decent cleric archer compared with melee cleric builds.

A melee cleric needs just one feat, power attack, and a source for a martial weapon (racial, PrC-granted proficiencies, war domain, etc.), and is going to be 'OK' from 1-6 and a beast from 7 onwards. Meanwhile an archer cleric generally is going to want point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, and probably zen archery, so it's quite hard to fit in the 'basic' archery feats when also doing a DMM build.

Below is a sample cleric archer build, for reference/discussion (I was working on archery builds yesterday for fun):

Elf Cloistered Cleric 10/Contemplative 10
(Note: For players in Forgotten Realms where you must choose a deity, Labelas Enorath (Elven deity of time and magic) works well as a patron that could feasibly grant the Planning and Elf domains)
Domains: Planning, Elf, [trade Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion feat, per Complete Champion)] The Undeath domain is arguably better for the build, but I find it a bit cheesy to channel positive energy and have the undeath domain, and you'd end up burning a feat on point blank shot either way.

Feats:
1: Point blank shot [domain]
1: Extend spell [domain]
1: knowledge devotion [trade Cloistered Cleric's Knowledge domain for feat, per Complete Champion]
1: Persist spell
3: DMM: Persist
6: Extra Turning
9: Quicken Spell
12: Zen Archer
15: Rapid Shot
18: Holy Warrior
(gets Precise through a +1 weapon ability)

Obviously builds will differ by game based on the PrCs you might want to enter, the presence/absence of gear like Nightsticks, etc., but I think the build above gives a good idea of how crowded the feat competition is for a cleric archer.

I'll note that I've never played a 'real' clericzilla in practice. I've played a warpriest in PF though, which has a similar 'stack buffs and become a combat god' feel to it :P

[RandomPeasant]

It depends on your level of optimization. It's true if you're taking all those feats, it digs into your feat slots a lot (though I would point out that you have Quicken Spell, and that Extra Turning is only really necessary if you don't have Nightsticks). But the best Cleric Archer build is a Dweomerkeeper with the Spell Domain, meaning you can pick anyspell as part of your Mantle of Spells and pop all the [Combat] feats you want out of low-level spell slots. There's definitely a case to be made for the melee build, but it has more to do with the wider range of melee buffs than any major feat advantage. Personally, I think the ability to stand behind a wall of undead more than mitigates the reduced damage output.

[Akal Saris]

Yeah, I personally hate relying on nightsticks when planning a cleric character build, since (a) I personally don't think they should stack with each other based on a typical reading of the rules for magic items, and (b) most 'actual' games I've played in have had very few opportunities to obtain relatively obscure magical items, let alone multiple of them, so I tend to mistrust any character builds that rely overmuch on a specific magical item to function well. So I prefer to plan a persist build to have 7 or 14 TU uses without nightsticks, and then if nightsticks are available, then great! In that context, Quicken still has value to enable low-level buffs like divine favor, or for non-persistable spells like spiritual weapon.

So your preferred build is Dweomerkeeper and choosing Anyspell, using it to emulate Heroics, and then extend/persist a few Heroics spells? That seems like a solid approach to avoid the feat crunch for the ranged build. From 12 onwards even just an extended Heroics would last for 4 hours, which is pretty solid, and 3rd level spell slots aren't a huge deal for most clerics.

Yup, the wider range of melee buffs like Righteous Might and Bite of the Werebear are also good reasons to go for melee builds!

[RandomPeasant]

Yeah, I personally hate relying on nightsticks when planning a cleric character build, since (a) I personally don't think they should stack with each other based on a typical reading of the rules for magic items, and (b) most 'actual' games I've played in have had very few opportunities to obtain relatively obscure magical items, let alone multiple of them, so I tend to mistrust any character builds that rely overmuch on a specific magical item to function well.

That's exactly the sort of thing I was talking about when I said that optimal builds will vary tremendously with the optimization ceiling. Do Nightsticks stack? Are they freely available? Can turning from a domain fuel DMM? All of those are questions that influence the power of this type of build tremendously.

In that context, Quicken still has value to enable low-level buffs like divine favor, or for non-persistable spells like spiritual weapon.

But your build doesn't end up with DMM: Quicken. I'm skeptical that you're getting enough value out of divine favor to justify the 5th level spell slot, even if it isn't taking a standard action to cast.

So your preferred build is Dweomerkeeper and choosing Anyspell, using it to emulate Heroics, and then extend/persist a few Heroics spells? That seems like a solid approach to avoid the feat crunch for the ranged build. From 12 onwards even just an extended Heroics would last for 4 hours, which is pretty solid, and 3rd level spell slots aren't a huge deal for most clerics.

Well, again, I would shy away from "preferred". There are vanishingly few games where the all-out Dweomerkeeper build is appropriate, and in games at that power level I'd probably play something that's more of a traditional spellcaster instead, but that is the general idea. You can also stack Illumian's Aeshkrau sigil on top of everything else to turn your boosted-up STR score into a massive number of bonus spells (you can hit a STR score of something over a 100 with enough buffs, and that's ignoring greater consumptive field silliness).

[RNightstalker]

I think you will find that Darg is correct - the "Same source doesn't stack" rule applies regardless of type - the "type" stacking rules only apply to bonuses from different sources.
You will need a specific rule quote allowing them to stack, "untyped" bonuses stacking is not relevant here.

Quick side note: this is good stuff and I wish more people realized it.

Aside from persistent spell, clerics also have some brutal combo spells. Consider for example Sense Weakness (= your next critical autoconfirms) and Surge of Fortune (=your next attack is an automatic 20) combined with a vorpal weapon. That kills great wyrm prismatic dragons.

That is a nasty combo...thanks for bringing it to my attention

A different thread, that got derailed from the OP

Sometimes you need to do a standard disclaimer on a post: "I'm optimizing a fighter because I want to play a fighter...those that would ask why or try to tell me why it's the worst class in 3.x need not apply reply."

That being said, Radiant Servant of Pelor is also a PrC that grants extra domains, and Superior Resistance is another spell candidate that I didn't see posted that will prevent needing to buy an item for a resistance bonus to saving throws.

[RandomPeasant]

People are probably not mentioning superior resistance because it's a generically good Cleric spell that doesn't really have anything to do with what a Cleric Archer does. It's duration is already 24 hours, so every Cleric is going to use any 6th level slots that aren't otherwise spoken for it, regardless of whether they are a DMM self-buffer, a necromancy-based minionmancer, or a straight caster Cleric.

[RNightstalker]

It's duration is already 24 hours,

Thanks for the reminder, it was always cast for me, not by my player lol.

[Rebel7284]

One thing that bugs me is that I've frequently seen clerics recommended as archers, but unless you're playing with flaws (for more feats) it's actually pretty hard to make a decent cleric archer compared with melee cleric builds.

This is true, but note that it's true regardless of HOW you try to build your archer since archery in 3.5 takes such a huge investment in build resources. Clerics tend to do it better, since Clerics also have 9th level spells to fall back on.

The best archer in high-OP games is probably Archivist because it can more easily do stuff like this: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...t-optimization

[RandomPeasant]

The term Cleric Archer is historical. The original "Cleric that out-fights a Fighter" (from back in the 3.0 days) was formulated as an archer. I'd try to find the original thread, but I'm pretty sure it was on the old WotC boards, and is long gone.

[Lans]

The term Cleric Archer is historical. The original "Cleric that out-fights a Fighter" (from back in the 3.0 days) was formulated as an archer. I'd try to find the original thread, but I'm pretty sure it was on the old WotC boards, and is long gone.

They nerfed divine favor, rightous might and persistent spell.

[Akal Saris]

The term Cleric Archer is historical. The original "Cleric that out-fights a Fighter" (from back in the 3.0 days) was formulated as an archer. I'd try to find the original thread, but I'm pretty sure it was on the old WotC boards, and is long gone.

Interesting, I didn't know that!

By the way, I saw your responses to my comments earlier, all of which were good points. Personally, I really like making sure that any build I play takes advantage of swift actions as much as possible, so I may over-value quicken spell simply because it fits my playstyle well.