What Are You Playing 5: New Thread+

[Anteros]

So as hinted at earlier in the thread I'm giving Bastion another go. Got one core left, so I figure I'm in for the mid-game twist.

Honestly, the main issue I'm having is that the gameplay is pretty meh. I've been mainly using the Fang Repeater and War Machete, and recently switched out the former for the Scrap Musket, but it just doesn't feel quite there. With a bit of refinement and more commitment to either the hacking and slashing or shooting might have helped it feel better, as it is I'm uncertain I'll be doing more than one full playthrough. It's functional and there's variety, but it's not quite there.

So yeah, it's finishing Bastion and then on to Transistor for me.

I had a similar problem with Bastion. The art seemed ok, and I didn't mind the narrator. It was a neat twist on the genre. The gameplay was...not exactly a slog. It was just boring. Everyone says what a great game it is, so maybe I gave up to soon. I'm not generally willing to sit through hours of boredom in the hopes that something gets good later.

[IthilanorStPete]

I had a similar problem with Bastion. The art seemed ok, and I didn't mind the narrator. It was a neat twist on the genre. The gameplay was...not exactly a slog. It was just boring. Everyone says what a great game it is, so maybe I gave up to soon. I'm not generally willing to sit through hours of boredom in the hopes that something gets good later.

I mean, the gameplay gets better, but IMO never beyond a bit above average. If the characters, graphics, and music didn't grab you... those are really the best parts of the game.

[Anonymouswizard]

I mean, the gameplay gets better, but IMO never beyond a bit above average. If the characters, graphics, and music didn't grab you... those are really the best parts of the game.

Yeah, I'll agree with this. I'd say the turning point in the gameplay is around when you pick up the Scrap Musket. That and one of the later weapons became my default that I kept switching back to and what I'll likely use in NG+.

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So I got to Zulf's betrayal, and ended up so hooked that I literally powered through the rest of the story. It's kind of an 'oh ****' moment that brings everything together and makes the meh gameplay worth it.

As a side note, I completely abandoned melee weapons in favour of the guns. Duelling Pistols became my standby with either the Musket, Mortar, or Cannon depending on the level.

Oh, and on the ending.

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Why on earth does it give you the option to abandon Zulf? The game implies that Zulf and the Kid had probably started to develop a friendship before the betrayal, and he's just been beaten halfway to death by his own people. No weapon is worth that.

I went for the Restoration ending, partially because it fits thematically, partially because I'm now planning a NG+ run and seeing both endings.

But it is an incredibly well told story for just how few speaking parts there are.

[LibraryOgre]

Finally beat a game of GalCiv3!

Terran Resistance! It was an ascension victory (which are kinda cheap, IMO), but I ruled half the galaxy and two of the three remaining opponents were friends, so I consider the game truly whipped.

[Resileaf]

Oh, and on the ending.

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Why on earth does it give you the option to abandon Zulf? The game implies that Zulf and the Kid had probably started to develop a friendship before the betrayal, and he's just been beaten halfway to death by his own people. No weapon is worth that.

Test of character.

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What is more important to you, revenge or forgiveness? It's probably more important to the game's message that the player be allowed to have the choice.

After all, a large majority of players have, without hesitation, opted to take the save option. Would this event be as meaningful as it is if there was no choice? If saving Zulf was the only road, would the following sequence be as powerful as it is?

I think not. I think this game is empowered by giving you the choice and you consciously deciding that you want to save him and stop fighting.

[VoxRationis]

I recently picked up Heaven's Vault on a Steam sale. I'm only a few hours in, but a game about translation is fun (though the translation process is simplified somewhat in that the writing system appears wholly semantic, seems to map to a language with English grammar, and contains a few arbitrary symbols that match up with their usage in English). One thing I've noticed the last couple of days is that the game, for all its mechanical simplicity, takes enough mental and emotional bandwidth that I can go to work desperate to get home and play some more and then, eight hours later, come home utterly unready to touch it again. There's a feeling of wonder and horror that I remember from Pillars of Eternity that runs through much of the game, but distilled because I'm not sitting through hours of tactical combat and mechanical optimization between revelations.

[Cespenar]

I recently picked up Heaven's Vault on a Steam sale. I'm only a few hours in, but a game about translation is fun (though the translation process is simplified somewhat in that the writing system appears wholly semantic, seems to map to a language with English grammar, and contains a few arbitrary symbols that match up with their usage in English). One thing I've noticed the last couple of days is that the game, for all its mechanical simplicity, takes enough mental and emotional bandwidth that I can go to work desperate to get home and play some more and then, eight hours later, come home utterly unready to touch it again. There's a feeling of wonder and horror that I remember from Pillars of Eternity that runs through much of the game, but distilled because I'm not sitting through hours of tactical combat and mechanical optimization between revelations.

Heaven's Vault was pretty fun. You don't see well thought out non-linear-ish puzzle games that often, so what little jank the game had was pretty endurable for me. Sort of like a much calmer but slightly jankier and exploratory Obra Dinn.

And yeah, games like that don't latch onto your classic gaming induced dopamine cycle like most successful games tend to, but they all have their places.

[Eldan]

Heaven's Vault was pretty fun. You don't see well thought out non-linear-ish puzzle games that often, so what little jank the game had was pretty endurable for me. Sort of like a much calmer but slightly jankier and exploratory Obra Dinn.

Ooh, that's exactly what I wanted from Obra Dinn, slower and jankier!

I'll give it a look.

[Cespenar]

Ooh, that's exactly what I wanted from Obra Dinn, slower and jankier!

I'll give it a look.

It might have been a stretch just to make a simile, but I don't know.

[warty goblin]

I hate boss fights. Inevitably they're the least engaging, most tedious parts of games for me. They always take the full combat sandbox and collapse it to some gimmick attached to far too many hitpoints, and I just get no pleasure from them. A hard, well designed encounter tests my skills, a boss fight tests my tolerance for ancient game design BS that sucked 25 years ago and still sucks now.

This makes the boss fights in Halo Infinite very disappointing, because the normal combat is so good. It's not even like they're particularly bad boss fights, since most of the combat kit is available, and they don't completely reduce to rote move memorization. But they're there, and I wish they weren't .

[Anteros]

I hate boss fights. Inevitably they're the least engaging, most tedious parts of games for me. They always take the full combat sandbox and collapse it to some gimmick attached to far too many hitpoints, and I just get no pleasure from them. A hard, well designed encounter tests my skills, a boss fight tests my tolerance for ancient game design BS that sucked 25 years ago and still sucks now.

This makes the boss fights in Halo Infinite very disappointing, because the normal combat is so good. It's not even like they're particularly bad boss fights, since most of the combat kit is available, and they don't completely reduce to rote move memorization. But they're there, and I wish they weren't .

How are you liking the rest of the campaign? Debating if I want to buy or wait for a sale.

[warty goblin]

How are you liking the rest of the campaign? Debating if I want to buy or wait for a sale.

Everything else is fantastic. The opening two scripted missions are good, but when you actually get onto the Halo proper it's just dynamite. Everything feels great, the shooting, the movement, the enemies, it's just top notch. Driving isn't fantastic, but it's just fine, and that's the closest it comes to a weakness that I've found.

I think the best way to describe it is that it's the logical evolution of the original Halo and Crysis; dynamic gameplay driven by good AI, a slightly simulationist bent to the overall structure, and a broad set of player abilities almost entirely free of overtly RPG stuff. You get some equipment upgrades, and you can get improved versions of some weapons by killing specific enemies, but that appears to be about a the sum total of upgrades. This isn't a game you play to get the next cool thing, you play because the next thing you do is going to be awesome. Not awesome in that you equipped some BS item combo and now don't take damage or something, but that you headshot a jackel from 200 meters, blew up an elite with a long range explosive canister shotput, grapple-hooked yourself into CQB with a grunt-obliteraring punch, set off a chain explosion with a grenade, then double-tapped a brute with your shotgun in a free-form self-directed symphony of chaos. And if you get killed by an errant explosion, the next effort will be just as cool but completely different. God I've missed that emergent unpredictability.

[Rynjin]

I hate boss fights. Inevitably they're the least engaging, most tedious parts of games for me. They always take the full combat sandbox and collapse it to some gimmick attached to far too many hitpoints, and I just get no pleasure from them. A hard, well designed encounter tests my skills, a boss fight tests my tolerance for ancient game design BS that sucked 25 years ago and still sucks now.

This makes the boss fights in Halo Infinite very disappointing, because the normal combat is so good. It's not even like they're particularly bad boss fights, since most of the combat kit is available, and they don't completely reduce to rote move memorization. But they're there, and I wish they weren't .

Boss fights are meant to be some of the most memorable, fun tests of your skills in a game. Unfortunately, a lot of developers don't understand that (especially when it comes to pure FPS games) and instead they're just like "So there's a dude with a bunch of HP. Like a ****load. An absolute metric asston of HP. I'm talking like a HUGE-"

And that just ain't fun.

[warty goblin]

Boss fights are meant to be some of the most memorable, fun tests of your skills in a game. Unfortunately, a lot of developers don't understand that (especially when it comes to pure FPS games) and instead they're just like "So there's a dude with a bunch of HP. Like a ****load. An absolute metric asston of HP. I'm talking like a HUGE-"

And that just ain't fun.

I mean I get that's the idea, but it's not just the bad ones I dislike, it's just the entire concept and structure. Occasionally they rise to the level of sorta OK, but that's about it. I can't think of a single game where a boss fight was my favorite part though, and I can think of quite a few games I otherwise really liked that I just gave up on a boss fight because it was such a pain in the ass. Not that I didn't understand how to beat it, or that I necessarily find dying repeatedly to a hard fight to be unenjoyable - a lot of times a fight like that is great! - but the sheer lack of variety in a boss fight is usually just awful.

Fortunately the Halo Infinite ones aren't all that bad. They're just big normal enemies with a silly shield/armor system that breaks the usual rules. Kinda dumb, and completely unnecessary given the richness of Halo's combat model, but that's about the worst that can be said of them. At least so far.

[Drasius]

I'm pretty bad at FPS, but I liked Halo 1/2/3/ODST/Reach enough to power thorugh on legendary both solo and with friends as I enjoyed the story and worldbuilding. Hated 4, didn't play 5 and a mate who I've played the campaigns through with a couple of times jumped straight into infinite. After listening to him die repeatedly to the bosses and then eventually watching him die repeatedly to the bosses via stream, I am glad I didn't pick this up as I am 100% certain I would have been so unbelieveably tilted at the bossfights that I would have rage quit.

In other news - I came back to Last Epoch yesterday, that's gotten a fair bit of polish since I last looked. Still a little way to go yet, but it's looking really nice and the crafting system is still absolutely ace compared to similar stuff.

[factotum]

Boss fights are meant to be some of the most memorable, fun tests of your skills in a game. Unfortunately, a lot of developers don't understand that (especially when it comes to pure FPS games) and instead they're just like "So there's a dude with a bunch of HP. Like a ****load. An absolute metric asston of HP. I'm talking like a HUGE-"

And that just ain't fun.

The thing I find most annoying about them is the often repetitious nature of the fight. If I've figured out your oh-so-clever trick to killing this guy, then get me to repeat it once--maybe twice at most to make sure it wasn't a fluke first time. Don't have me doing it over and over again until the heat death of the Universe just to prove I can do it!

[Anonymouswizard]

I hate boss fights. Inevitably they're the least engaging, most tedious parts of games for me. They always take the full combat sandbox and collapse it to some gimmick attached to far too many hitpoints, and I just get no pleasure from them. A hard, well designed encounter tests my skills, a boss fight tests my tolerance for ancient game design BS that sucked 25 years ago and still sucks now.

That's not a boss fight. That's a badly designed boss fight.

Most of my favourite bits of Devil May Cry 5 are the boss fights. The chance to go one on one with an enemy that hits like a truck and can take a lot of punishment, where the only viable solution is to stylishly avoid their attacks and reply with your own.ive had less problems with overly long healthbars than that one boss who gets really good at dodging attacks once down to 1/4 health. But then again DMC does have a deep enough combat system that they don't have to lock off anything for boss fights.

Gimmick bosses should die in a hole. But there's nothing wrong with bosses in general.

[Morgaln]

I don't think there's anything wrong with boss fights in general. In fact, one of the games I consider a contender for the best game ever made is nothing but boss fights (I'm talking about Shadow of the Colossus, of course).

A good boss fight allows you to learn how to beat the boss; it gives you tells to recognize what a boss is doing and lets you avoid their attacks through a combination of skill and pattern recognition. Beating a boss by learning their patterns and how to avoid/counter them can be very satisfying.

[Zombimode]

There are enough games that have boss battles that do not step out of the core combat gameplay. The vast majority of RPGs do fall into that category. In that context I generally like boss battles and usually look foreward to them.


The type of boss battles Warty Goblin mentioned on the other hand I do not care about at all. I can second pretty much all points they raised against them.

[Eldan]

Eh. Not falling out of core combat gameplay can just mean "same thing, but five times more hitpoints". Those are the worst bossfights.

[Anteros]

I think we can all just agree there are different ways to do boss fights well or poorly.

At least, that shouldn't be a controversial statement. You never know on this forum.

[LibraryOgre]

Eh. Not falling out of core combat gameplay can just mean "same thing, but five times more hitpoints". Those are the worst bossfights.

Even worse is when it's not a boss fight, just "stupid large sack of HP"

I remember in Fallout 3, breaking a brand new assault rifle just pumping shells into a Super Mutant Overlord. Rip through a magazine, slot a new one, ad nausem, until your rifle breaks and you're hoping you can punch the stupid thing to death.

As for Kingmaker, I'm stalled again. I finally beat a game of GalCiv3, and am on my way to beating another (stupid Iridium Corporation keeping me from making an alliance with the 3 other remaining powers), but Kingmaker, I'm going to need to look up a guide to getting through the damn Tower at the Edge of Time. Obnoxious multi-dimensional maze. Even with the difficulty on fights turned way down, it's annoying. I know I was TOLD a secret, but it appeared briefly, and isn't in the in-game journals, and I can't go ask the person who said it because

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she's a book.

[Zombimode]

Eh. Not falling out of core combat gameplay can just mean "same thing, but five times more hitpoints". Those are the worst bossfights.

Yes, though it depends. If normally HP do follow a set of rules (like in D&D where it is computed by the creatures HD) then an artifical increase or decrease of HP is an instance of falling out of the core combat gameplay.

[Anonymouswizard]

Eh. Not falling out of core combat gameplay can just mean "same thing, but five times more hitpoints". Those are the worst bossfights.

Yeah. A boss generally has to bring something new to the table in addition to a sack of hit points. New moves in a spectacle fighter or new spells or abilities you're not sure how to counter in an RPG, for example.

I think shooters might just not be friendly to boss fights. In my experience the enemy is generally over there, at the other side of the battlefield, shooting at me, or else over here, in my face, shooting at me. Once those two possibilities are covered you generally have to start introducing new guns, and honestly at some point it becomes 'what pattern is this boss's rockets going to fall in'.

But then again not every game needs bosses, Bastion's are superfluous and just bigger examples of normal enemies. Maybe shooters should focus on alternative setpieces.

[Eldan]

Yeah, I think Shooters often do much better at interesting stages for fights, than interesting bosses. If I think back to Half-Life 2 (my palette of shooters I've actually played for more than half an hour is very limited), I vividly remember the speed boat chase, several car chases, or fighting across the iron girders of a bridge that was nauseatingly high up. I have no idea what the final boss fight was. It involved portals, I Think? Some kind of lightning?

[Resileaf]

Yeah, I think Shooters often do much better at interesting stages for fights, than interesting bosses. If I think back to Half-Life 2 (my palette of shooters I've actually played for more than half an hour is very limited), I vividly remember the speed boat chase, several car chases, or fighting across the iron girders of a bridge that was nauseatingly high up. I have no idea what the final boss fight was. It involved portals, I Think? Some kind of lightning?

iirc, you threw explosive barrels with the supercharged gravity gun at Dr. Brenner to prevent him from reaching a portal while Combine soldiers stream in from other rooms to attack you.

[PhoenixPhyre]

iirc, you threw explosive barrels with the supercharged gravity gun at Dr. Brenner to prevent him from reaching a portal while Combine soldiers stream in from other rooms to attack you.

I think there was also a part of throwing those barrels (or orbs or whatever) at parts of the portal itself to break it, which is the trigger for ending it.

[warty goblin]

Yeah, I think Shooters often do much better at interesting stages for fights, than interesting bosses. If I think back to Half-Life 2 (my palette of shooters I've actually played for more than half an hour is very limited), I vividly remember the speed boat chase, several car chases, or fighting across the iron girders of a bridge that was nauseatingly high up. I have no idea what the final boss fight was. It involved portals, I Think? Some kind of lightning?

I think you're probably right here. Halo 2 provides good examples of both. The bit where you kill the scarab is big and complicated and uses the environment, so you fight around it and above it and finally board it, and it's a great set piece that mostly just uses and complicates the game's existing combat systems in fun ways. Later there's a boss fight where you shoot a dude in a magic floating armchair for a while as he taunts you on repeat. This is as thrilling as it sounds.

[Resileaf]

Metroid Prime also had great bosses. They were usually not HP sponges, they were often puzzles in themselves to solve while fighting, actively dodging and finding ways to pierce their defenses.

[Anteros]

Most FPS games just aren't that mechanically complex. It's hard to do an interesting test of the player's mechanical mastery when the extent of the gameplay is essentially point and click. Obviously there's more to it, and some people are much better at it than others, but when your core gameplay loop is just clicking on something, there's only so much you can do. That's probably why most memorable boss fights in FPS games are memorable because of the surrounding plot, or the stage design.