A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    So, anyone else actually seen it? I'd love to discuss the movie, but no one I know has seen it.
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    So, anyone else actually seen it? I'd love to discuss the movie, but no one I know has seen it.
    Err... Hello?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Just saw it on opening night, after watching Lynch's version yesterday evening.

    God damn, you can see the difference in budget and technical means. Now, this is a spectacular movie.

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    I really liked it. Every actor is perfect in their role and it completely sells you on the utter scale of this world.

    A bit miffed that this is only the first half though. It does give the story the room it needs to breathe (especially when you see how dense Lynch's version was), but still, not a fan of cutting stories on half. Also I did find that the "escaping the Harkonnen sequence" dragged a bit too long.

    Feyd-Rautha is nowhere to be seen, so I guess Raban will take over his role. That does diminish the Baron's cunning a bit since his whole "set up Raban to fail so the people will welcome Feyd" looks to be simple greed now. With Feyd are also gone any mention of the Baron's sexuality and, frankly, good riddance because that was just plainly homophobic. Also instead of being inexplicably ginger, the Harkonnen are now inexplicably bald. The Baron still hover, but since I find that cooler than just lifting his gut like in the book, it gets a pass.

    One thing I did find weird was that Paul's visions make no mention of his future names. Gone are "tell me of the water of your world, Usul" and his armies chanting Muad'dib. Well they are chanting, but we don't get to hear it. With that said, the desert-mouse is prominently shown a few times, so I'm confident he will take on the name... When part 2 comes out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Ah, ehm. Look over there, worm sign!
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    Well, the camera stays steadily fixed on the action, and doesn't cut between incoherent closeups every half a second. That already puts it above 75% of modern action cinema. Bravo.

    I like how they've really captured the misdirection that is the essence of shield-fighting: the fast, direct attacks get deflected and are used mainly to throw the enemy off-balance or elicit a response. Only when Paul gets Gurney on the ground (and lets his guard down) do either of them have the opening for the slow attacks needed to bypass the shield.

    When I saw the red shimmer in the trailers, I assumed it was meant to be blood vibrating on the shield edges. Just having it be a warning light is slightly less stylish, but maybe it's both.
    It's actually more plausible in some ways than the book version.

    The book explained that fast attacks were feints to let slow ones through, but begged the question as to why anybody would ever fall for that trick. The inclusion of hand-to-hand fighting techniques in the mix makes more sense.

    (Obviously, there was plenty of that in the deathmatches with Jamis and Feyd, but the first was definitely not shielded, and I think the second wasn't either.)

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Let's be honest. Halleck's deep-seated hatred of the Harkonnens is lot more plot relevant than the fact that he can curry a fudging tune.

    It has absolutely no bearing on the plot or Gurney's character except that at some point someone says "hey Gurney sings something"
    I sort of got the feeling that Gurney and Jessica had little crushes on each other ... but yeah, that's a story for after the book, not during it.

    Speaking of that kind of thing, I recently read the Miles Vorkosigan book which is the romance between Cordelia and a second love (after Aral Vorosigan's death). It was surprisingly good. That said, I'm much friendlier to the romance genre than most males are.
    Last edited by Corey; 2021-09-17 at 04:58 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Ah, ehm. Look over there, worm sign!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Who earned the bonus?
    Well, you posted first.

    But we can only carry three reviews per thread page, so we have to kick out the signatures.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    You guys have special tickets to film festivals or what not?

    Earlier I can see this thing is Oct 22nd

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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Well, you posted first.

    But we can only carry three reviews per thread page, so we have to kick out the signatures.
    We'll just have to ask the heir of our forul to step out of the thread during the operation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    You guys have special tickets to film festivals or what not?

    Earlier I can see this thing is Oct 22nd
    The movie opened in theater on Wednesday in France. Doesn't it open this week where you are ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    We'll just have to ask the heir of our forul to step out of the thread during the operation.


    The movie opened in theater on Wednesday in France. Doesn't it open this week where you are ?
    October 22nd in Quebec :(

    Which is crap, because Denis Villeneuve is a local boy

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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Same for Germany. Opened here yesterday.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    It's probably because the way Warner Brother screwed over their entire film industry this year.

    When it releases in North America, it will be on HBO Max as well, right? So they obviously want the movie released outside of North America in theater first to try to rack up at least a modicum of international box office.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    It's not that unusual for the occasional wide release to release outside of America before it releases in America. Especially if they do a considerable amount of filming outside of America or are collecting some kind of tax breaks from Europe or Asia. Not sure if this movie is or not. But it's not an aberration or an unusual practice.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    It's not that unusual for the occasional wide release to release outside of America before it releases in America. Especially if they do a considerable amount of filming outside of America or are collecting some kind of tax breaks from Europe or Asia. Not sure if this movie is or not. But it's not an aberration or an unusual practice.
    5 weeks is highly unusual though, and can be laid entirely at the feet of HBO max related piracy fears.
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    5 weeks is highly unusual though, and can be laid entirely at the feet of HBO max related piracy fears.
    entirely? I don't think so. Sure that might be a portion of it, but it's hardly the only, or even the main, consideration.

    They wanted to premiere it in Europe at the Venice and Deuville festivals, which necessitated the release after in Europe, however they also want to premiere it in the U.S. at the New York festival that doesn't take place until Oct 7th and 8th. Normally, they'd release it after that, but Bond has the major format screens tied up for the two weeks directly after. So you end up third week in October.

    But don't let reality get in the way of a good hate-filled seethe about HBO MAX. Gosh Darn Streamers and their Filthy New Paradigms. Trying to give people options to stay home instead of going out in the plague-lands with the mouth-breathers. Bastards.
    Last edited by Wintermoot; 2021-09-22 at 08:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    But don't let reality get in the way of a good hate-filled seethe about HBO MAX. Gosh Darn Streamers and their Filthy New Paradigms. Trying to give people options to stay home instead of going out in the plague-lands with the mouth-breathers. Bastards.
    Well excuse me for stating the obvious facts instead of inventing some festival narrative that makes zero sense. Nice job responding entirely to nothing I actually said at the end there though.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Well excuse me for stating the obvious facts instead of inventing some festival narrative that makes zero sense. Nice job responding entirely to nothing I actually said at the end there though.
    There are multiple articles online about "the festival narrative." I actually did research rather than just making up my own "obvious facts."
    Last edited by Wintermoot; 2021-09-23 at 01:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    There are multiple articles online about "the festival narrative." I actually did research rather than just making up my own "obvious facts."
    Yea it’s a nice little marketing push, I’m sure the studio exec who came up with it feels great about himself.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wintermoot View Post
    entirely? I don't think so. Sure that might be a portion of it, but it's hardly the only, or even the main, consideration.

    They wanted to premiere it in Europe at the Venice and Deuville festivals, which necessitated the release after in Europe, however they also want to premiere it in the U.S. at the New York festival that doesn't take place until Oct 7th and 8th. Normally, they'd release it after that, but Bond has the major format screens tied up for the two weeks directly after. So you end up third week in October.

    But don't let reality get in the way of a good hate-filled seethe about HBO MAX. Gosh Darn Streamers and their Filthy New Paradigms. Trying to give people options to stay home instead of going out in the plague-lands with the mouth-breathers. Bastards.
    Regardless of the opinion of people you think are outdated, it's still true that releasing everything on HBO Max will mean less revenus distributed to the entire Warner Brother film studio and everyone who has stake in *theater release* revenue. Especially domestic box office revenue.

    The corporation made a strategic choice by putting in on HBO Max, but they still borrowed from Paul to repay Peter.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    I saw it yesterday and am very satisfied. I have some problems with Liet-Kynes presentation
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    though her death scene was awesome
    , her "as a servant of the emperor, I am ordered to ignore this" TWICE (or even more often?) was not subtle enough. The soundtrack was great, but too loud, too obtrusive (is that the right word?) imo. Also not a fan of Jamis.

    But these are minor problems, overall it's a great movie.
    Spoiler
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    The scene in the tent where Paul foresees the djihad was extremly powerful.

    Spoiler
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    Cutting Feyd-Rautha was a bold move, but worked absolutely.


    This exposition was well-handed, even if necessarily long.

    The movie is easier accessible for people who don't know the books than the David Lynch version, but even then, I wonder if it is fully understood by such people. I was alone in the theatre since my friends didn't have time, so I had no opportunity to discuss it with people who didn't read the books.

    edit:
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    The revelation that Fremen ride on worms was too casually. That should have been the big surprise at the start of the second movie.
    Last edited by Bavarian itP; 2021-09-24 at 01:14 AM.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    I just watched it. What an incredibly well made film, I felt like watching it again once it was over and that very rarely happens. I also have the feeling that the attention to detail and the little breadcrumbs of lore probably reward multiple viewings significantly.
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Bavarian itP View Post
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    Cutting Feyd-Rautha was a bold move, but worked absolutely.
    Spoiler: Usul, we have spoilers of the likes of which even God has not seen
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    After finishing it I was shocked at just how much had been cut out. No Shaddam IV, no Irulan, no Feyd, they didn't bother explaining a lot of the backstory, didn't really explain Mentats or Yueh's background.

    And it worked. That stuff is great texture and worldbuilding, but watching the Lynch version which starts with 2 infodump scenes leading into another scene where the Emperor has to explain the whole plot to the audience makes this version look much more elegant. My wife was new to Dune and she had no trouble following what was going on.

    I really wanted to see this movie's version of a Guild Navigator though.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Spoiler: Usul, we have spoilers of the likes of which even God has not seen
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    After finishing it I was shocked at just how much had been cut out. No Shaddam IV, no Irulan, no Feyd, they didn't bother explaining a lot of the backstory, didn't really explain Mentats or Yueh's background.

    And it worked. That stuff is great texture and worldbuilding, but watching the Lynch version which starts with 2 infodump scenes leading into another scene where the Emperor has to explain the whole plot to the audience makes this version look much more elegant. My wife was new to Dune and she had no trouble following what was going on.

    I really wanted to see this movie's version of a Guild Navigator though.
    Spoiler: I guess
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    Irulan and Shaddam Corrino aren't in the book until the climax, they weren't cut from the movie. In the same line, I doubt we'd see a true fish-tank Navigator until they get around to adapt Messiah, which they won't unless they make massive profits on these two. I kinda wish they had left in the whole "Thufir suspects Jessica of being the traitor" plot, because without it Thufir doesn't really have anything to do in the story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Spoiler: I guess
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    Irulan and Shaddam Corrino aren't in the book until the climax, they weren't cut from the movie. In the same line, I doubt we'd see a true fish-tank Navigator until they get around to adapt Messiah, which they won't unless they make massive profits on these two. I kinda wish they had left in the whole "Thufir suspects Jessica of being the traitor" plot, because without it Thufir doesn't really have anything to do in the story.
    Spoiler: True, but...
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    It's more a comparison to the last two adaptions, which had those things all front and center, doing little but filling the story with extra stuff. Irulan has little to do in the book other than give worldbuilding snippits in the chapter headings and show up at the end, but that didn't prevent the Lynch movie from opening with her and the Sci-fi channel version trying to turn her into a co-protagonist. It's more a pleasant surprise at how focused this version is at telling the story it needs to without getting lost in the weeds, especially given how much of the marketing focused on Chani, who also really has nothing to do with the first half of the book and thankfully wasn't shoehorned in early.

    I actually enjoyed this movie a lot more than I expected because of that. It's certainly the most confident adaption of the book to date by far, and I'm looking forward to seeing the second half. I also was happy to see this on HBO Max, but I'm now tempted to go see it in a good theater next time I have to travel near one.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    I guess this is our Dune thread now.

    Spoiler: Saw it in IMAX
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    Truly an experience, and I enjoyed it immensely even if it did feel a bit draggy towards the end. I've only ever read the first book, and I was still able to both follow the story and recognize almost everyone (except people named Harkonnen, that pale bald look made them all blur together). My father is an absolute Dune fanatic and also enjoyed it immensely.

    Also, if anyone ever decides to greenlight an actual big-budget Warhammer 40K movie, I want whoever did the visual design for this movie involved. Stick a bunch of double-headed eagles on everything and this could have been straight out of the 40k setting (and yes, I know how much 40k originally ripped off from Dune in the first place).
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    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Just got back from the theaters.

    I can't really not love this movie, even though it did leave me in the cold in a few places. TLDR summary is that I was absolutely thrilled watching it, but it did leave me with some concerns about how this story is going to be handled in the sequels.

    First off, the way in which this movie hands-down nails its task is in its visualization (and auralization) of the world, its technology and locales. The desert of Arrakis is absolutely stunning in its bleakness. Every single tech element, from shields & hunter-killers to thopters and thumpers, looks sleek but also worn and lived-with. The interiors at both Castle Caladan and the palace of Arakeen are beautifully staged. I think it could have stood a more richly varied color palette, but this style has its merits.

    Unsurprisingly, the cast is stellar. Chalamet really has to carry quite a lot of this movie, and holds his own impressively alongside much more proven talent. I found this movie's version of Kynes particularly compelling. If there is anything like a weak link, I'd say its Bardem's Stilgar, but he doesn't feature much in the film anyhow, and has the next film (fingers crossed) to invest the character with a little more gravity. Likewise I wasn't sure I really "got" Josh Brolin's Gurney Halleck, but again I suspect he'll feature more prominently in the future.

    Spoiler: Some Standouts
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    The top 5 scenes that really grabbed hold of me while in the theater, in no particular order:

    1. The spice harvester rescue had me on the edge of my seat, even though I knew the scene back to front from the book.

    2. The scene between Jessica and the Shadout Mapes was possibly the best pure-acting-and-dialogue scene in the whole thing (close runner-up being the Gom Jabar).

    3. Any scene with the Baron Harkonnen was suitably chilling, especially his first scene on Giedi Prime.

    4. The action scenes were all pretty good, and I loved the choreography behind the shield-fights, but I found Paul's duel with Jamis had the best sense of real physicality and danger.

    5. Jessica and Paul (but mostly Jessica) taking out the three Harkonnen soldiers in the 'Thopter was absolutely chilling. A Sister of the Bene Gesserit at peak ruthless lethality is something to behold.


    Spoiler: My Name is a Killing Spoiler
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    I did have some problems with the structure and pacing of the movie, though I think such problems were all but inevitable. I feel like the movie should have been either thirty minutes longer or thirty minutes shorter. If shorter, it should have ended as Paul and Jessica head off into the desert to seek the Fremen. If longer, it should have ended with the funeral of Jamis (something I really thought they were building to with the emphasis in Paul's visions on the word "friend" ("I was a friend of Jamis"), and what I presume was an alternate future of him and Jamis being friends.

    Of things that were cut, the only thing I really find myself missing is the banquet scene, which helps so much to provide insight into Imperial politics and to characterize the core cast, in addition to having some of the book's best dialogue. This film is already pretty long, I think they could have made room for this.

    I'm a bit concerned for how many elements they still have left to set up for Part II, including important characters, like Irulan and Feyd-Ruatha. For a movie that's almost 80% setup, it still feels like we're missing a lot of the key pieces.

    One a more-moment-to-moment level, I thought that some of the most high-intensity scenes, particularly the deaths of Duncan & Duke Leto, were diminished in their tension and power by frequent cutting between other scenes; I think that letting them play out more slowly and steadily would have been a better decision.

    The script was really solid, but in some places the pacing and dialogue seemed a bit rushed in tempo. There were a number of moments where I thought "If I didn't already know this dialogue from the book, I wouldn't have heard or understood what was just said."

    Finally, I would like to heap particular scorn upon whatever idiot Sardaukar gunner decided it was a good idea to fire a lasbeam at a shielded thopter during Duncan's escape. It's a good thing he didn't hit, or else the Harkonnens would have captured a smoking crater instead of a city.
    Last edited by Catullus64; 2021-10-23 at 10:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Dune - Discussion about The full movie

    Visually it was absolutely gorgeous.

    The pacing was pleasantly slow, managed to keep me interested throughout the runtime. A friend who had not read the book (and did not know anything about the movie in advance) was thrilled and enjoyed.

    Spoiler: Minor issues
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    I think that they did not establish the futility of firearms sufficiently well and thus the confrontation between Harkonnen and Atreides troops where the battle lines just met each other in melee felt somewhat stupid considering the level of technology we were seeing all around us.

    Overall the attack by Harkonnen was perhaps the weakest item in the movie. Atreides seemed being incompetent as they were so totally taken by surprise. Not enough groundwork to establish the unthinkable nature of the attack.

    Loved the wink to the audience at the end that this is just the beginning.

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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Watched it, loved it, was absolutely ready for another 2.5 hour continuation of the story...

    I'm flabbergasted that Part 2 hasn't been greenlit yet; I would have thought filming both films at the same time would have huge cost savings.

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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    One problem with making a film adaption of an epic novel like Dune is including all the detailed world building for audience members who haven't read the book. I assume that most GitP members have read Dune at least once. Many, like myself, have read it numerous times. But how does the film explain personal shields to a viewer who hasn't read the books.
    So...there is a lot of exposition, but also many things are just not explained. I'd read the books, and thus knew what was going on. My girlfriend had not, and also enjoyed the film, but there were quite a few things she didn't get.

    I believe this is an intrinsic difficulty of the book, which is a remarkably difficult transition to film, because so much of it is internal, or reliant on a *lot* of knowledge to understand the significance of.

    One thing I find interesting is they are focusing on Gurney Halleck's hatred of Harkonnens. I hope they are not forgetting Gurney Halleck the musician or the quotable Gurney Halleck who would say things like “Behold, as a wild ass in the desert, go I forth to my work.”
    Eh, they kind of did.

    Which I kinda get, because god, it's a long film already and there's a lot going on, so things have to be axed, and it turns out Harkonnens matter a lot, but yeah. The purist in me wants to quibble here and there.

    But the film is enjoyable to watch regardless of quibbles, and the world building is really nifty.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2021-10-25 at 01:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    An aside on "exposition", especially in film adaptations of books.

    With Dune reaching US audiences recently and more reviews coming to light, in the last few days I have been coming across this word more often than ever before.

    And it got me thinking. It really feels that we simply consider that "exposition" is a negative thing per se in movies. Why is that? Surely Dune the novel has way more exposition than the movie. But I don't think that you see this notion brought up when discussing novels pretty much at all. The creator(s) retains more agency in novels, but in visual media the viewers are stakeholders of what's done, and how.

    In the particular case of Dune, I think that it may come down to two things. One, we are in an era of nitpicking; criticism means finding problems in things, and complaining gets you social cred. Two, the exposure (?): surely the first LotR movie has as much exposition than Dune, if not more. But that was never an issue with it, I think. The LotR is so engrained in the collective mindset that maybe we accept it being more "exposition"-heavy than something that feels more like a novelty, even if it was written half a century ago.
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

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