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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Wow, are you telling me that 300 might be slightly historically inaccurate? I would have never guessed.
    That made me laugh out loud, thanks.

    Chani's added speech about it being an honor for Paul dying with her great-aunt's crysknife in his hands was a good touch, showing that she too is part of the blood-soaked Fremen culture ("Kill to lead" is dumb, but it's in the book; thankfully, "Ways change."). I think it helps set up one of the things mentioned in passing in the book, where she starts killing challengers to Muad'Dib in duels herself, in hopes that there will be fewer if they learn that they will get killed by her without even seeing him.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    You could argue that Leto looks more Persian than he does Greek-ish
    To the extent that that argument is even worth making, given the ethnicity of Oscar Isaac (Cuban/Guatemalan) it's kind of amusing. Though it does go some way to illustrating how pointless such arguments are.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Aedilred View Post
    To the extent that that argument is even worth making, given the ethnicity of Oscar Isaac (Cuban/Guatemalan) it's kind of amusing. Though it does go some way to illustrating how pointless such arguments are.
    Because race is a racial construct that has little bearing on reality. Light skinned mixed raced babies can be determined black or white depending the neighbourhood they go to, and dark skinned Italians and Spanish will be "whites"

    It has nothing to do with actually respecting reality, and its just about creating fake categories to encourage tribalism

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Because race is a racial construct that has little bearing on reality. Light skinned mixed raced babies can be determined black or white depending the neighbourhood they go to, and dark skinned Italians and Spanish will be "whites"

    It has nothing to do with actually respecting reality, and its just about creating fake categories to encourage tribalism
    Race as a cultural trait has limited and fraught relationship with actual phylogenetic patterns among human populations, though the latter are quite real and are important to modeling things like disease prevalence.

    This rather relevant because in the context of Dune phylogenetics is extremely important and also an aspect of humanity that has been manipulated for thousands of years to produce and refine superhuman abilities (the Voice, other Bene Gesserit powers), and ultimately create a living god. This is, however, extremely difficult to convey on screen because external appearance is not a good guide to heredity, since most visible phenotypic traits are both extensively multi-gene and tied heavily to environmental factors, height is a nice example, depending both on many genes and on nutrition and hormone levels throughout childhood.

    It actually makes sense, again in the context of Dune, for Fremen characters to be portrayed by actors who are mixed race or ethnically indeterminate, because the Fremen population would be so. The Fremen population possesses a constant, low-level, genetic exchange with the rest of the Empire, and since the Empire's population is much, much larger than that of the Fremen (the Fremen population is something like 10 million, minuscule at planetary scale and only doubly the urban population of Arrakis) this prevents the necessary genetic isolation that would generate a specific Fremen ethnicity.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    The more I think about it, the more I prefer Villeneuve's focus on the oppressed's struggle against the oppressor as the thematic thread of the movie.

    I just wished Paul's character arc was a more progressive transformation from a Landsraad Noble with Landsraad nobleman's concerns and tactics, to a Fremen Liberator.

    The way it plays out, he goes from A to B in the span of about 20 minutes in the movie, while that transition should have been the focus of his character.

    He should have seen the Fremen as nothing but a people to use at first. See them as the pawns of the Bene Gesserit. Only see them within the consideration of the next Duke Atreides, and his views should have evolved with exposure.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    The more I think about it, the more I prefer Villeneuve's focus on the oppressed's struggle against the oppressor as the thematic thread of the movie.

    I just wished Paul's character arc was a more progressive transformation from a Landsraad Noble with Landsraad nobleman's concerns and tactics, to a Fremen Liberator.

    The way it plays out, he goes from A to B in the span of about 20 minutes in the movie, while that transition should have been the focus of his character.

    He should have seen the Fremen as nothing but a people to use at first. See them as the pawns of the Bene Gesserit. Only see them within the consideration of the next Duke Atreides, and his views should have evolved with exposure.
    I don't recall this as being a perspective Paul (or Leto, for that matter) would have ever had...if not from the beginning, from fairly early on in the book they were depicted as the "not-Harkkonens", particularly in regards to not viewing people as easily replaceable tools/assets. I think the rapid "Dances With Wolves" treatment would undercut the value of the Atreides story/presentation.

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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    I was going to say the same - that feels like a very un-Atreides attitude based on the Duke, who would be the one most likely to pass that sort of ruler-based lesson onto Paul. Leto's very first interaction with a Fremen is showing him respect, and guaranteeing their right to live freely in their own homes. That's not really a 'natives are tools/pawns' perspective.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I was going to say the same - that feels like a very un-Atreides attitude based on the Duke, who would be the one most likely to pass that sort of ruler-based lesson onto Paul.
    The Duke does give a cynical "We do what we do because it keeps us in power" lecture once, in the book :

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    Paul stared at his father’s back, seeing the fatigue in the angle of the neck, in the line of the shoulders, in the slow movements.

    “You’re just tired, Father.”

    “I am tired,” the Duke agreed. “I’m morally tired. The melancholy degeneration of the Great Houses has afflicted me at last, perhaps. And we were such strong people once.”

    Paul spoke in quick anger: “Our House hasn’t degenerated!”

    “Hasn’t it?”

    The Duke turned, faced his son, revealing dark circles beneath hard eyes, a cynical twist of mouth. “I should wed your mother, make her my Duchess. Yet… my unwedded state give some Houses hope they may yet ally with me through their marriageable daughters.” He shrugged. “So, I….”

    “Mother has explained this to me.”

    “Nothing wins more loyalty for a leader than an air of bravura,” the Duke said. “I, therefore, cultivate an air of bravura.”

    “You lead well,” Paul protested. “You govern well. Men follow you willingly and love you.”

    “My propaganda corps is one of the finest,” the Duke said.

    ...


    “Did you know we’re using spice residue as raw material and already have our own factory to manufacture filmbase?”

    “Sir?”

    “We mustn’t run short of filmbase,” the Duke said. “Else, how could we flood village and city with our information? The people must learn how well I govern them. How would they know if we didn’t tell them?”


    as well as suggesting that the Fremen belief in the Mahdi is something to exploit, in an emergency.

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    The Duke took an antifatigue tablet from a pocket, gulped it dry. “Power and fear,” he said. “The tools of statecraft. I must order new emphasis on guerrilla training for you. That filmclip there—they call you ‘Mahdi’—‘Lisan al-Gaib’—as a last resort, you might capitalize on that.”
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-12-02 at 12:28 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Also, Duke Leto's attitude toward the fremen is not a pure benevolent one.

    He outright say he want to tap them as a fighting force for his political gains.

    The Atreides play the good guys. They behave as such because it serves them politically. But I don't think they should be seen as a genuinely force of good. At the end of the day, they still do the Emperor and the Guild's bidding

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Duke Leto firmly intended to train the Fremen into an army to fight the Harkonnen, and, possibly use them to put the Atreides on the Lion Throne at some point down the line.

    Righting the wrongs the Fremen have known was always a distant second priority at best (he most certainly never intended to help them take back control of the planet).

    At this point in the book and the movie, this is also roughly where Paul's mind is at. He wants to use the Fremen to survive the fall of House Atreides, avenge Father Dear and possibly become Emperor. He's also extremely worried about escaping his vision of a galaxy-wide jihad.

    It takes him a while to actually "go Native" and count himself as a Fremen.
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by lifeofbrianant View Post
    I watched and I'm not thrilled to be honest :)
    Well, too bad for you. If you ever feel like discussing your opinion we'll be here

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    I haven't got 'round to watching yet. I'm a big fan of the books and enjoyed all the previous film/TV releases, even where they stray from the books. Everything I've read in this forum suggests that I'm going to enjoy it.
    I may not agree with some of the changes or portrayals, but that's going to happen with any movie based on a book I know well. A mate has watched it, and he said the biggest disappointment was that he has to wait for part 2!
    Last edited by Tarmor; 2021-12-03 at 06:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Duke Leto firmly intended to train the Fremen into an army to fight the Harkonnen, and, possibly use them to put the Atreides on the Lion Throne at some point down the line.

    Righting the wrongs the Fremen have known was always a distant second priority at best (he most certainly never intended to help them take back control of the planet).

    At this point in the book and the movie, this is also roughly where Paul's mind is at. He wants to use the Fremen to survive the fall of House Atreides, avenge Father Dear and possibly become Emperor. He's also extremely worried about escaping his vision of a galaxy-wide jihad.

    It takes him a while to actually "go Native" and count himself as a Fremen.
    One thing about Dune is that spice production must continue no matter what. The consequence of failing to produce spice is civilization wide collapse across the whole Imperium. The Fremen don't have the ability to produce spice on an industrial level sufficient to sustain civilization, something that everyone, including the Fremen themselves, knows. The film actually quite carefully recognizes this and has Stilgar quickly acquiescence to this reality by telling Leto 'you can mine your spice,' because the alternative is to bring the power of the whole Imperium against them.

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    Paul's insight, critically, is that properly mobilized and trained, the Fremen can take on the forces of the whole Imperium and win, and therefore he leads them to crush spice production and therefore lures the Emperor to send his forces to Arrakis where the Fremen have a massive advantage. This, ultimately, is Dune's great bit of world-building sleight of hand, in that the universe is setup in a such a way that ten million or so Fremen can mobilize a fighting force sufficient to overcome the resources of an Emperor who controls hundreds or thousands of planets, something that should be impossible even if one Fremen was worth ten other fighters.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    One thing about Dune is that spice production must continue no matter what. The consequence of failing to produce spice is civilization wide collapse across the whole Imperium. The Fremen don't have the ability to produce spice on an industrial level sufficient to sustain civilization, something that everyone, including the Fremen themselves, knows. The film actually quite carefully recognizes this and has Stilgar quickly acquiescence to this reality by telling Leto 'you can mine your spice,' because the alternative is to bring the power of the whole Imperium against them.

    Spoiler
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    Paul's insight, critically, is that properly mobilized and trained, the Fremen can take on the forces of the whole Imperium and win, and therefore he leads them to crush spice production and therefore lures the Emperor to send his forces to Arrakis where the Fremen have a massive advantage. This, ultimately, is Dune's great bit of world-building sleight of hand, in that the universe is setup in a such a way that ten million or so Fremen can mobilize a fighting force sufficient to overcome the resources of an Emperor who controls hundreds or thousands of planets, something that should be impossible even if one Fremen was worth ten other fighters.
    Meh
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    The Fremen did beat the Emperor's troops on Arrakis, but it was Paul's threat to nuke the Spice out of existence that actually got Shaddam to stand down. The Emperor had only sent a couple legions to the planet and despite every Great House having sent troops there, the Guild kept them stuck in orbit, so I wouldn't say the Fremen overcame the resources of the entire Imperium.

    As for the spice production, while "the spice must flow" sounds very nice, God-Emperor tells us the production was completely halted for hundreds of years, up to possibly three millenia and the Imperium managed to carry on (albeit at greatly reduced speed) on reserves alone.
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Meh
    Spoiler: the books and later books
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    The Fremen did beat the Emperor's troops on Arrakis, but it was Paul's threat to nuke the Spice out of existence that actually got Shaddam to stand down. The Emperor had only sent a couple legions to the planet and despite every Great House having sent troops there, the Guild kept them stuck in orbit, so I wouldn't say the Fremen overcame the resources of the entire Imperium.

    As for the spice production, while "the spice must flow" sounds very nice, God-Emperor tells us the production was completely halted for hundreds of years, up to possibly three millenia and the Imperium managed to carry on (albeit at greatly reduced speed) on reserves alone.
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    precisely. The Fremen can't take the entire Imperium at once. But they dont have to: by threatening the destruction of the Spice, they secure the permanent cooperation of the Guild and negate any potential of strategic reinforcement by any combattant not directly involved in the fight.

    That means no support form the Landsraad. That means you can do to the Landsraad what the Landsraad was terrified the Emperor would do to them: pick them off one by one

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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    One thing about Dune is that spice production must continue no matter what. The consequence of failing to produce spice is civilization wide collapse across the whole Imperium. The Fremen don't have the ability to produce spice on an industrial level sufficient to sustain civilization, something that everyone, including the Fremen themselves, knows. The film actually quite carefully recognizes this and has Stilgar quickly acquiescence to this reality by telling Leto 'you can mine your spice,' because the alternative is to bring the power of the whole Imperium against them.
    The consequence of the end of spice production is the fall of the current power structure. The spice must flow because the guild and the great houses need it to retain their current power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari
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    As for the spice production, while "the spice must flow" sounds very nice, God-Emperor tells us the production was completely halted for hundreds of years, up to possibly three millenia and the Imperium managed to carry on (albeit at greatly reduced speed) on reserves alone.
    Spoiler
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    And on this point, the fall of the current power structure was Leto's objective. He intentionally calcified the structure of the empire in order to create a great shattering upon his death, to fling humanity in uncountable directions so that no one person could ever see the future of all of it at once and end the tyranny of prescience (remembering that in Dune once the future is seen it is inevitable).

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Dune clip - Chalamet and Brolin shield fighting

    Well, I saw it if anyone cares.

    Spoiler: Because I'm sure nobody has read the book it's based on
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    I think the main thing this movie teaches us is how goddamn hard it is to adapt a book like Dune for film.

    And heresy though it is, at this moment, without a rewatch to better absorb it, I actually think Lynch's '84 effort works better.

    Now, part of that judgment I admit is very unfair because this is explicitly Part One, but there were distinct parts where Villenevue's effort just felt a bit ... disjointed. At 2.8 hours or whatever it's already a long damn film, but I really got the feeling they could've or had filmed a lot more scenes but just didn't have the runtime to subject an audience to them. I got the feeling that the director made a lot of cuts to scenes that probably stung like hell, this film felt like the absolute bare bones that you could get onto film while still telling the story somewhat coherently. I think someone watching both the Lynch version and this one with no knowledge of the book would more confidently figure out what's going on in with Lynch's film than with this. This is partly because it's part one, but it's also because the story is so massive there's different ways of approaching it, and I personally think Lynch's approach was a tad better or at least worked as a better summary of the whole thing.

    There are massive positives. This is worth the price of a ticket if only for the spectacle, no way this film will have anywhere near the impact on a piddly 50-inch TV, you owe it to yourself to see this on a massive screen to absorb the scale of it. The production design carries this film, it was fantastic. Every spaceship on screen felt like the monolith from 2001, there's a real melancholic mood that floats over virtually every space scene or scene that contains a starship. Cinematography was gorgeous, there were one or two shots where they seem to have dipped the camera in caramel, but aside from that it was restrained use of palette, a real washed-out look. Another thing that lengthened the runtime but which I appreciated as a human being subjected to ever-increasing "amphetamine editing" by Hollywood: they actually let shots linger for more than three seconds at a time. This really worked for the material. The way they characterised the Voice made me jump out of my chair at a couple of points. And Villenevue has the soul of a painter given the sorts of images we're given.

    Casting was pretty solid for the main roles: Chalomet is one of the few guys in the world who looks youthful enough to pull off a mid-to-late teenager look but has the chops to carry the role. I personally prefer Jurgen Prochnow as Leto, but Oscar Isaac did pretty well in the part. I'm spoiled by the absolutely gorgeous Francesca Annis as Jessica Atreides in the Lynch version, she was one of the most beautiful women in the world, but Rebecca Ferguson did the role justice too. Thanos, um, Brand, er, Josh Brolin as Gurney Halleck was good, or at least closer to the book than Captain Picard in Lynch's version. But then he's an amazing actor who picks his roles extremely well for his personality. Jason Momoa ... yeah, he was basically Jason Momoa, same as he does in every film he's been in ... albeit there were a couple of moments where he wasn't bad. I thought Drunk Stilgar was a brave acting choice for Javier Bardem, but Bardem lifts any film he's in, and he did so here as well. Zendaya as Chani ... eh, I think she didn't get the memo to stop playing s@$$hole M.J. from the Spider-Man films, but we'll see how she goes next film.

    (On the casting of Kynes: regardless of pigmentation or reproductive organs, I just didn't think she was a very good actor or didn't give a very good performance. Maybe I'm being a little unfair because the comparison is Max von Sydow, one of the greatest actors of his generation or any other, but yeah, there were plenty of performances that were better. Also, calling Paul 'lad' when there looks to be about two minutes' birth time between her and Chalomet was a clanger in the script. Especially given we're already having to look through narrowed eyes to convince ourselves Oscar Isaac is Chalomet's character's father rather than his older brother.)

    The negatives really come down to this - for me, I think it could've worked better with just a bit more plot or exposition. Or thinking a bit more about what elements of the plot were actually useful to the story. There's lots of stuff in here that obviously wasn't in the Lynch version: the ecological stations, Kynes' relationship to the Emperor, more scenes on Caladan, the bull head (really nice motif there). But ...

    ... well, the best example I can give is of the Shadout Mapes scenes. We basically only get two featuring her: Jessica and the crysknife, and Paul and the hunter-seeker. But both scenes are just a bit short which takes away from their purpose in the story; with Jessica, the point of the scene in the book is the gift of the crysknife (which I don't think shows up again on film, though it does in the book) and telling us more about the prophecy. But we've already got that the Bene Gesserit have seeded Arrakis with useful mythology, so what was the point of that scene, especially given Jessica and Mapes don't share any further screentime together? We can't really change the hunter-seeker scene either, but that's where the Lynch version does better: Lynch used the hunter-seeker scene to introduce Mapes, end the hunter-seeker scene, and add on that there's a traitor among the Atreides. The Villenueve version, of course, omits this intrigue element entirely, which is a valid choice given limited runtime and other stuff to focus on, but as a result, it really renders Mapes as a practically irrelevant character. We cared about her death a little in the Lynch version because she'd warned us there was a traitor at hand, but in the Villenevue version her death comes across as just ... flat, just another body in the foundations, because we haven't really known that much about her. So to me I didn't see much point to having her on film at all. It's an element that bloats the runtime for no reason.

    Another one is Paul's negotiation with Kynes in the ecological station. In the books that scene was the one in which we got a sense of the Atreides' absolute loyalty to their allies and servants, and a better sense that Kynes spoke fully for the Fremen or was considering Paul's proposal on behalf of the Fremen. We don't get that full discussion in the film, possibly for runtime reasons, but ultimately it's just Paul throwing a promise of turning Arrakis into a paradise to Kynes before we cut to Aquaman again. And the scene doesn't quite work as a result.

    With the Sardaukar I think they went just a bit over the top. Don't get me wrong, they were unsettling, especially that blink-and-you'll-miss-it shot from Salusa Secundus which explains where the red paint they're all being marked with is coming from, but it got a little bit cartoonish there.

    That said, they certainly made a nice contrast in capability visually: in the fight on the stairs, the Atreides are holding off a big mob of Harkonnens from one direction, and then a comparatively small number of Sardaukar arrive from the opposite direction and finish the job completely. That delightful visual method of exposition was throughout the film; I was wondering how they'd show Paul's shield-slowness in the Jamis fight, and they did that beautifully: slapslapslapslapslap Paul's got his knife at Jamis' throat; slapslapslapslapslap Paul's got his knife at the throat again, cue Drunk Stilgar asking whether he's playing with the man and Jessica pointing out Paul has never killed before. (And I might say that Jamis fight worked on me a lot harder than I was expecting; by its end, the way Chalomet acted out his reaction to killing the man, I was close on the verge of tears.)

    Paul's visions of the future also ... well, sort of fitted into the way they were telling the story, but man, I hope Zendaya was getting paid by the minute of screentime for this thing, she was in every damn one. I did like how maybe Paul was seeing different future visions than what actually happens; that was a neat way to visually illustrate for the Dune-conscious audience that Paul sees many available futures, not just the one ... and it also throws those who haven't read the book that Paul might be seeing his own death here (which he was. Kind of. The irony being that it was that vision, and only that one, in which the Fremen jihad is averted or has a chance of being averted. I think later on in the book Paul concludes that it would've taken the death of everyone in or watching that fight to stop it.) I would've liked a little more variety in the actual jihad vision itself - could we not afford to film somewhere that's not so obviously where we shot the Caladan scenes? - but this was one of the ways where the film excelled, or faced up to the task of telling a story without substantially doing interior monologues of the book or the Lynch film.

    So ... yeah. Ultimately I think it's a better fan film of Dune than it is an exceptional telling of the Dune story, but it's a hard story to tell and the experience of watching it was just something else.

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