A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Apr 2008

    Default Build Help for a Paragon-Tier Seeker?

    Hello all!

    Hoping to get to play on these very forums, and figured I'd ask for a hand as this is my first paragon-tier character I may get to play .

    Maugrim Winterhill, Dwarf Bloodbond Seeker [Fey Beast Tamer] / Moonrise Stalker

    I think the Race, Background, and Paragon Path are fairly well set at this point for story/character/fun reasons. I am well aware that Seeker is regarded as among the worst classes, and that Dwarf is a fine but not 100% optimal race for them, but I'm a glutton for punishment and I'm attached to the backstory now. As a bit more context, the campaign is "Against the Giants" (I have and want no spoilers, but it seems a safe bet we may fight some Giants ). Party so far is a Sorcerer, a Runepriest, a Shaman, and an as-yet-undecided defender. Finally, no homebrew is allowed, but all sources are. We also got a free Defense-booster feat and a free Expertise feat. On to the questions:

    1) I have 3,000 GP to spend. Suggestions? I'm also not married to my current set-up - I like the Thunderbolt Weapon, but would be open to dropping the Dice to instead get +3 armor that comes in at level 11. Acrobat's Boots looked good to me since I am not trained in Acrobatics and thus didn't get to take that skill power, but I'm sure there's an even better use of my cash.

    2) Biggest sticking point now is that I wanted Thievery as a trained skill for story/utility reasons (I have reasonable stealth, sky-high perception, a pet Owlbear, and low-light vision; I want to be our scout/trapfinder). But, Sneak of Shadows is basically just a Skill Proficiency feat right now since Sneak Attack doesn't work with a Superior Crossbow. I'm newer to using Backgrounds and so many seemed race-locked. So - any suggestions on how to keep my current list of trained skills but take a more useful feat? I have zero intention of using that Rogue MC for anything so I'm totally open to MCing elsewhere. Right now I just took "Fey Beast Tamer" as my background as well as my theme for a +2 to Nature; easily sacrificed for a different Background.

    3) I'm also not married to some of my feat choices. Dodge Giants, Dwarven Durability, and Improved Initiative are all fine but not crucial (although Durability does feel nice as a Fey Beast Tamer). Heck, I'm not even sure Inevitable Volley is that great in-play. I thought a lot about Mark of Storm as the clear front-runner for more soft control with my weapon choice. My original plan as I built Maugrim was to plan to beg the DM for a Mindiron Crossbow later and grab Psychic Lock, but as I wrote that Crossbow become a part of the story - so, maybe I should embrace it and take MoS? (I know I can retrain, but it feels weird to retrain a story-hook feat like MoS). Weapon Focus, Deadly Eye, and Grounding Shot were all also on the list, and I could easily have missed something.

    4) I'm also open to getting totally wild on swapping powers and even build - I know that Spiritbond is a more common build for dwarves. I like that crossbow a lot, but I could for sure be convinced to go all Thor and toss hammers at people instead, that's not a huge background tweak.

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Hawk7915; 2021-09-03 at 11:19 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Keledrath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Build Help for a Paragon-Tier Seeker?

    Gonna start by saying that I think the issues with Seeker are overblown, and generally come down more to Wizards and Invokers being wildly above curve than Seekers being below curve. Which honestly comes down more to amount of content they got than anything else.
    Alright, going point by point.

    1. I always push hard for Shadowdance Armor. Flowform is nice, but not needing to worry about provoking can be a huge life saver. Acrobat Boots are generally solid since they're just so cheap, though less necessary since, as a dwarf, you have a 55% chance to avoid being knocked prone.

    2. Depending on what backgrounds are allowed, the best option for getting Thievery is "Cormyr (Wheloon)", which gives it as a class skill and gives a +2 bonus, I've used it on several characters. Otherwise, there's several backgrounds that have it as an associated skill with no requirements (circus performer, early life- test subject, burglar, early life- imprisoned, and saved from the noose, to name the first 5 in my compendium).
    As far as multiclass options, Binding Initiate (Star Pact) is always solid for n encounter use of Hidden Lore (invisibility if you down an enemy or one gets downed while next to you), as well as access to arcane feats, and, most of all, has no prerequisites. Same can go for Practiced Killer (MC assassin), which also gets you access to ki foci (Rain of Hammers is an excellent ki focus that can be acquired cheaply)
    Monk is also a kind of neat option for the Shifting Stone feat.

    3. Mark of Storm is always fantastic, and I personally think it's probably the best feat in the game for controllers, since it opens up so many tricks and improves so many powers. Inevitable Volley is excellent.
    Dodge Giants I would probably switch out for Cunning Stalker or Vicious Advantage, both of which are useful for getting consistent Combat Advantage. Primal Eye can be nice if your shaman has the power that grants RBAs.

    4. Honestly, I think power swaps on Seekers tend to be tricky unless you're doing something very weird, due to the relative lack of ranged weapon classes. You basically have Ranger and maybe Rogue (depending on weapon choice). Your build looks very solid, I personally prefer Flickering Arrow at E1, since I haven't had great experiences with forced attacks like Possessing Spirits.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

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  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Build Help for a Paragon-Tier Seeker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Gonna start by saying that I think the issues with Seeker are overblown, and generally come down more to
    It's more like the seeker isn't actually a controller. It works well enough as a striker, though. Not super powerful, but well enough.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Build Help for a Paragon-Tier Seeker?

    Thanks so much for the response!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Gonna start by saying that I think the issues with Seeker are overblown, and generally come down more to Wizards and Invokers being wildly above curve than Seekers being below curve. Which honestly comes down more to amount of content they got than anything else.
    Alright, going point by point.

    1. I always push hard for Shadowdance Armor. Flowform is nice, but not needing to worry about provoking can be a huge life saver. Acrobat Boots are generally solid since they're just so cheap, though less necessary since, as a dwarf, you have a 55% chance to avoid being knocked prone.

    2. Depending on what backgrounds are allowed, the best option for getting Thievery is "Cormyr (Wheloon)", which gives it as a class skill and gives a +2 bonus, I've used it on several characters. Otherwise, there's several backgrounds that have it as an associated skill with no requirements (circus performer, early life- test subject, burglar, early life- imprisoned, and saved from the noose, to name the first 5 in my compendium).
    As far as multiclass options, Binding Initiate (Star Pact) is always solid for n encounter use of Hidden Lore (invisibility if you down an enemy or one gets downed while next to you), as well as access to arcane feats, and, most of all, has no prerequisites. Same can go for Practiced Killer (MC assassin), which also gets you access to ki foci (Rain of Hammers is an excellent ki focus that can be acquired cheaply)
    Monk is also a kind of neat option for the Shifting Stone feat.

    3. Mark of Storm is always fantastic, and I personally think it's probably the best feat in the game for controllers, since it opens up so many tricks and improves so many powers. Inevitable Volley is excellent.
    Dodge Giants I would probably switch out for Cunning Stalker or Vicious Advantage, both of which are useful for getting consistent Combat Advantage. Primal Eye can be nice if your shaman has the power that grants RBAs.

    4. Honestly, I think power swaps on Seekers tend to be tricky unless you're doing something very weird, due to the relative lack of ranged weapon classes. You basically have Ranger and maybe Rogue (depending on weapon choice). Your build looks very solid, I personally prefer Flickering Arrow at E1, since I haven't had great experiences with forced attacks like Possessing Spirits.
    1. I feel like between Feywild Jaunt to get off the board first round and set up wherever I want every encounter, Bloodbond "shift as minor", Encaging Spirits to Push 1 + Slow 1/encounter, and Moonbeam Step to Teleport 5 once per encounter, I feel pretty safe being able to "back up off" opponents and not provoke OAs for my attacks, so I'm not sure the first part of that armor feels too useful. The daily seems great though - I was inspired by the 5e Gloomstalker Ranger in building Maugrim, and being able to bring some darkness feels in character. I'll mull it over. Seems like either way, it wouldn't have me dropping the dice just spending a bit more of my cash. Also good point on the Boots - I'ma look at Eagle Eye Goggles or maybe some special ammo or potions instead.

    2. I really like the look of Binding Initiate. The attack is wasted on my 9 Charisma, but Hidden Lore fits that Gloomstalker vibe perfectly and gives me yet another way to be untargetable and run away without sweating OAs. Thank you!

    3. I think for now I'm going to drop Dodge Giants for Mark of Storm, yeah. Being able to actually make Into the Black Bog and Swarming Bats lockdown melees with the extra forced movement seems great, and getting Tidal Spirit Shot to Slide 2 will dramatically improve my at-will battlefield rearranging ability. At start I'm going to hope my Owlbear Companion will set up CA reliably enough for me, but I will definitely consider Vicious Advantage and/or Cunning Stalker if it turns out my little friend is too dead/slowed/tied up to set me up. I haven't seen the Shaman's powerset yet, so no clue if they're gonna be spamming enablers at me all game - if they are, I'll consider dropping another feat (likely Improved Initiative) for either Primal Eye or Weapon Focus Crossbow - but given the relative paucity of great Paragon feats for me (from what I can see, I mostly just have Skill Power at 16 to nab Insightful Riposte while still getting to take a class utility) I suspect I'll be okay to just wait for those damage feats later.

    4. Fair point; I am worried about how hit-dependent both Possessing Spirits and Feyjump Shot are, but it seems to me that it just be that way for the Seeker. I don't love the look of any of those other powers so I think I'm going to just roll with Possessing Spirits and plan to replace it at 13.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Dimers's Avatar

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    Default Re: Build Help for a Paragon-Tier Seeker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk7915 View Post
    I haven't seen the Shaman's powerset yet, so no clue if they're gonna be spamming enablers at me all game
    Whoops, sorry, forgot to include the link! I've now added it in the recruitment thread -- thanks for pointing that out.

    Assuming I make the cut: when my SC is adjacent to an enemy, you'll have CA against that enemy; and when my SC is adjacent to you, you'll get +5 damage against bloodied enemies. Those are both constant but you're unlikely to see much more on a regular basis. I don't have any powers to make you attack though I'll probably pick one up at 13th should we survive so long.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Keledrath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Build Help for a Paragon-Tier Seeker?

    Honestly, i would recommend just taking Insightful Riposte at 16 instead of Skill Powering for it. Seeker utilities are actually heinous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    It's more like the seeker isn't actually a controller. It works well enough as a striker, though. Not super powerful, but well enough.
    This is just factually wrong. Seeker is an excellent controller, definitely better than it is a striker.
    I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.

    Shadeblight by KennyPyro

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Build Help for a Paragon-Tier Seeker?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    This is just factually wrong. Seeker is an excellent controller, definitely better than it is a striker.
    Yeah, I've got a Drow Seeker who is built around optimizing getting Inevitable Shot off on round 1 and the build does good solid control. Nothing Wizard/Invoker broken, but that's fine.

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