Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings (2021)

[theNater]

In the same boat wondering about

Spoiler: Mid-credits Scene

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Bruce not being in Hulk form. The arm cast implies we're probably not long after A:Endgame, but I'm sure we'll find out. Also, Carol's hair is long again? I love her longer hair a lot more, don't get me wrong, but I'm highly skeptical enough time has passed for it to be that long if Bruce's arm is still in a sling.

Spoiler

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Given that Bruce's injury was caused by the infinity stones, it doesn't have to behave the way a normal injury does. Some possibilities:

It cannot heal, and he's trying a treatment option that can't be used on the Hulk.
It cannot heal in Hulk form, so he has to switch to Banner form for healing.
It has already healed in Hulk form, and he has only recently discovered that his Banner form was also injured.

[Psyren]

Carol's hair definitely doesn't have to obey any kinds of normalcy laws either, not when we know nothing about how often she has to cut it or even how.

[Androgeus]

Carol's hair definitely doesn't have to obey any kinds of normalcy laws either, not when we know nothing about how often she has to cut it or even how.

Also it’s space. They probably have hair growing pills or something.

[Easy e]

I read a few people knocking Katy's bow shot. However, the sidekick character also had a character arc to fulfill, not just Shang-Chi. The bowshot was the culmination of that arc.

[Tyndmyr]

I read a few people knocking Katy's bow shot. However, the sidekick character also had a character arc to fulfill, not just Shang-Chi. The bowshot was the culmination of that arc.

Sure, but that doesn't change that it's...ridiculously convenient. So much so that they lampshaded it, which doesn't really excuse anything.

Go, grow or whatever, but I'm pretty sure a single day of archery doesn't really prepare one for that.

[ecarden]

I read a few people knocking Katy's bow shot. However, the sidekick character also had a character arc to fulfill, not just Shang-Chi. The bowshot was the culmination of that arc.

I mean...how? I agree it's the end of the things she does, but how does it culminate her arc? She starts out a massively overqualified chauffeur who, her mother says, is failing to live up to her potential. She runs off with Shang, so we know she's brave and devoted. She gets her moment of glory in proving that being good at driving a car is crucial to saving the world and then arrives at the village and...

Nothing is made of her being physically inept, so its not like she's overcoming something in learning (in a day) to fire a bow. She overcomes someone saying 'no don't fight,' but that's never been an issue for her until she arrives in the village. The man keeping her down isn't part of her character arc. That's Shang's sister's arc!

Her arc seems to want to be 'live up to your potential' which...she doesn't. Shooting a bow she learned to use in a day at a giant CGI monster is not living up to her potential. Stealing one of the Ten Rings vehicles and driving someone to a spot they could take a shot might be? Proving that the skill she demonstrably has (being good at driving) is important? But the initial get-to-the-village mission did that, even if in a ridiculous way.

Personally, I'd have gone the other route altogether. She doesn't want to live up to her potential, that's fine too. Be one of the footsoldiers, or be the adult who can be spared to take care of the children because you are not a combatant. Accept that and help out, is a perfectly fine message!

But seriously, how does shooting a giant CGI monster that she just learned about, with a weapon she just learned how to use, in a place she just learned about, using none of her established skills or characterization, complete her character arc?

[Lizard Lord]

I mean...how? I agree it's the end of the things she does, but how does it culminate her arc? She starts out a massively overqualified chauffeur who, her mother says, is failing to live up to her potential. She runs off with Shang, so we know she's brave and devoted. She gets her moment of glory in proving that being good at driving a car is crucial to saving the world and then arrives at the village and...

Nothing is made of her being physically inept, so its not like she's overcoming something in learning (in a day) to fire a bow. She overcomes someone saying 'no don't fight,' but that's never been an issue for her until she arrives in the village. The man keeping her down isn't part of her character arc. That's Shang's sister's arc!

Her arc seems to want to be 'live up to your potential' which...she doesn't. Shooting a bow she learned to use in a day at a giant CGI monster is not living up to her potential. Stealing one of the Ten Rings vehicles and driving someone to a spot they could take a shot might be? Proving that the skill she demonstrably has (being good at driving) is important? But the initial get-to-the-village mission did that, even if in a ridiculous way.

Personally, I'd have gone the other route altogether. She doesn't want to live up to her potential, that's fine too. Be one of the footsoldiers, or be the adult who can be spared to take care of the children because you are not a combatant. Accept that and help out, is a perfectly fine message!

But seriously, how does shooting a giant CGI monster that she just learned about, with a weapon she just learned how to use, in a place she just learned about, using none of her established skills or characterization, complete her character arc?

The reason she didn't live up to her potential is because she never gave her full effort to anything.

I guess the implication is that she gave her full effort to learn archery, but I suppose learning in a day kind of goes against that.

[Ranxerox]

The reason she didn't live up to her potential is because she never gave her full effort to anything.

I guess the implication is that she gave her full effort to learn archery, but I suppose learning in a day kind of goes against that.

No, remember the archery instructor saying that she need to fully commit to each shot. The reason that she had not been living up to her potential is that she had been refusing to commit to anything. The implication is that she had fully committed in her heart to Shang Chi and his quest and that allowed her to unlock her potential.

Yes, hokey, I know. However, for the most part super hero comics are interior struggle given physical forms. So, the arrow shot is not literal (which is good because given the distance and height of her target it probably wouldn't have been possible for her regardless of how long she practiced) but is a stand in for some more mundane, real world type of achievement. Something like taking a job that actually challenged her or going to college. However, since those aren't the sorts of things that sell tickets to comic book movies, instead she shoots a giant flying monster.

[ecarden]

No, remember the archery instructor saying that she need to fully commit to each shot. The reason that she had not been living up to her potential is that she had been refusing to commit to anything. The implication is that she had fully committed in her heart to Shang Chi and his quest and that allowed her to unlock her potential.

Yes, hokey, I know. However, for the most part super hero comics are interior struggle given physical forms. So, the arrow shot is not literal (which is good because given the distance and height of her target it probably wouldn't have been possible for her regardless of how long she practiced) but is a stand in for some more mundane, real world type of achievement. Something like taking a job that actually challenged her or going to college. However, since those aren't the sorts of things that sell tickets to comic book movies, instead she shoots a giant flying monster.

I admit I stepped out to go to the bathroom at that point in the movie, but I agree that's what they're going for. I just think it's stupid and would have been far better to make use of some actual skill she had. Commitment is very definitely not enough everywhere else in this movie, which relies desperately on the magical power of martial arts training.

[Ranxerox]

I admit I stepped out to go to the bathroom at that point in the movie, but I agree that's what they're going for. I just think it's stupid and would have been far better to make use of some actual skill she had. Commitment is very definitely not enough everywhere else in this movie, which relies desperately on the magical power of martial arts training.

I recognized what they were trying to do at the time and am okay with it in principle. That being said, yes, the execution could have been better.

[Ramza00]

So just watched the movie.

Two Theme Takeaways
1) A theme of this movie is older parents can not be trusted with technology, and call your parents (while living away from them)
2) 🎶 The only one who could ever reach me / Was the monk of airbender clan
The only dame who could ever teach me / Was the monk of airbender clan
Yes, she was, she was, ooh, yes, she was 🎶

[LaZodiac]

I admit I stepped out to go to the bathroom at that point in the movie, but I agree that's what they're going for. I just think it's stupid and would have been far better to make use of some actual skill she had. Commitment is very definitely not enough everywhere else in this movie, which relies desperately on the magical power of martial arts training.

Having just watched the film; we know from what we've seen that her greatest skill is that she's actually just quite skilled in general. She can sing pretty well, she can navigate those scaffolds, she can drive a run away bus well enough that no one died. Her issue was not that she was unskilled, it was that she was unfocused.

Anyway I loved this film. The villain was a FANTASTIC use of the Mandarin, super tragic and sad. I don't know Sang Chi's comics well, but is his sister good or evil? Because me and my dad couldn't work out if her take over of the Ten Rings was positive or negative for the world at large. She had a lot of skulls in her designs but also that's clearly like, her aesthetic so maybe it's not bad...?

[Palanan]

I watched it over the past couple of days. Paused halfway through because it was in another moody slow patch and I just wasn’t interested enough to see what happened next.

Came back to it the next day, plowed through to the end. Very glad I didn’t spend money on it.

Spoiler: Slackers & Monsters

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Shaun is one of the most genuinely likable of all MCU heroes, and I enjoyed his goofy dynamic with Katy. He’s the first slacker hero in the MCU.

But there just isn’t that much to the movie, and it feels like it’s bits of several different movies slapped together—part urban martial arts, part Crouching Tiger knockoff, part creature feature with a new and random cosmic horror. And lots of draggy family drama.

The “final battle” at the end was just silly. A few dozen villagers, a few dozen mooks. I’m not quite sure what the point was, since Shang-Chi’s father could have leveled the entire village with one swipe from the Rings. And for mystical warriors armed with dragonscales and spooky powers, who are supposedly the guardians of the portal or whatnot, they sure had a hard time with a few dozen mooks.

And did I miss something, or is it an incredible coincidence that the Villain’s Evil Lair^TM is a short drive by electric car from the enchanted forest leading to the hidden village?

Oh, and the random cosmic horror. Way too random to suddenly appear in MCU cosmology, and a genuinely uninspired design. “Dragon octopus” sounds much cooler than it actually was, and it kept reminding me of a bad knockoff of the alpha dragon from the first HTTYD movie.

Overall, not great. Way too much family drama, frequently bogged down, mainly unconvincing creature CGI, and random cosmic horror out of left field. If the MCU wants a Lovecraftian feel for a movie, that should be the focus of the entire movie, rather than tacked on at the end.

[Ramza00]

I watched it over the past couple of days. Paused halfway through because it was in another moody slow patch and I just wasn’t interested enough to see what happened next.

Came back to it the next day, plowed through to the end. Very glad I didn’t spend money on it.

Spoiler: Slackers & Monsters

Show

Shaun is one of the most genuinely likable of all MCU heroes, and I enjoyed his goofy dynamic with Katy. He’s the first slacker hero in the MCU.

But there just isn’t that much to the movie, and it feels like it’s bits of several different movies slapped together—part urban martial arts, part Crouching Tiger knockoff, part creature feature with a new and random cosmic horror. And lots of draggy family drama.

The “final battle” at the end was just silly. A few dozen villagers, a few dozen mooks. I’m not quite sure what the point was, since Shang-Chi’s father could have leveled the entire village with one swipe from the Rings. And for mystical warriors armed with dragonscales and spooky powers, who are supposedly the guardians of the portal or whatnot, they sure had a hard time with a few dozen mooks.

And did I miss something, or is it an incredible coincidence that the Villain’s Evil Lair^TM is a short drive by electric car from the enchanted forest leading to the hidden village?

Oh, and the random cosmic horror. Way too random to suddenly appear in MCU cosmology, and a genuinely uninspired design. “Dragon octopus” sounds much cooler than it actually was, and it kept reminding me of a bad knockoff of the alpha dragon from the first HTTYD movie.

Overall, not great. Way too much family drama, frequently bogged down, mainly unconvincing creature CGI, and random cosmic horror out of left field. If the MCU wants a Lovecraftian feel for a movie, that should be the focus of the entire movie, rather than tacked on at the end.

The third act problem

Spoiler: Awe and the Sublime

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I feel the Ta Lo city needed to be bigger and trigger feelings of awe and the sublime. And these 3 words are interconnected (big / awe / sublime) for we often find small things to be beautiful or pretty, but to trigger feelings of awe we need to feel that there is a possibility the thing can destroy us. Thus to feel wonder we often need to be put up against something large and huge. A blowtorch can kill us but we find that form of heat to be pretty and beautiful, while a mountain volcano unleashing its magna we find to be full of awe and thus sublime.

Make Ta Lo magnificent like Asgard and you can give an opponent for The Ten Rings to fight. Likewise you can trigger feelings of awe while Katy is walking through the human areas of the city but also the nature areas before she does her archery stuff where she is taught to focus and actually try to engage with a target instead of merely “playing at life.”

Making Ta Lo look big likewise makes Lurker in the Darkness and the Great Protector (or whatever they call the good dragon) to be Big in comparison. The Lurker of course would be smaller than the city, yet the Lurker is still much larger than 1.67 meter tall human, and the Lurker is destroying the city slowly like a Kaiju / Giant Monster movie. There is a sense of scale that was missing with the 3rd act, while the two city scenes in the first half with the bus and the skyscraper at night made that part of the movie to be fun. Hell scale is why everyone loved Black Panther. We loved that movie for DOZENS of reasons but you need to make that city / country feel big and large, the world needed to feel occupied before you set the smaller everyday people dramas inside of it and Black Panther is allowed to be a great movie for those 11 other things.

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Scale also contributes to the slacker aspect of the movie. How hard it is to make a difference if the world is so big, yet even a slacker can be a hero.

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As for a more specific question Palanan the Ten Rings headquarters / training facility is right next to the Mystical City and is a car ride away (not a jet ride) due to both of them being in China and how Shang-Chi’s dad knowing the location of the magic city for 30ish years by now, but he could not enter it due to magic bamboo plot reasons and grabbing the two pendants. Why he did not grab the two pendants when Shang-Chi was 07 to 14, well he did not read enough books yet but in the 10 years Shawn was away Dad finally did the reading and found out how to do it. Pretty much we have a total of 4 micro movies timed gated due to Macguffin shenanigans making some people feel railroaded a few months ago.

[Tyndmyr]

and is a car ride away (not a jet ride) due to both of them being in China

I know there was more to this, but China is literally 3.7 million square miles in size. The scale of this, I think, gets lost in some films. We wouldn't assume that anywhere in the US is a short car ride from anywhere else, but China's even larger, so it seems like quite a coincidence there.

This isn't a showstopper for me, because, mostly, this is background, and in the more fantastical portion of the film. Some sort of unique coincidence setting things up is sort of a trope in fantasy, so it's eh, not that big of an obstacle, but I can certainly see why someone would take issue with it.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler

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10 rings guy was specifically hunting that village and knew its general location, not hard to assume he set up his hq nearby.

Sure is lucky that bus fight happened on San Francisco's steepest hill. They're rolling for like five minutes.

[Joran]

Spoiler

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10 rings guy was specifically hunting that village and knew its general location, not hard to assume he set up his hq nearby.

Sure is lucky that bus fight happened on San Francisco's steepest hill. They're rolling for like five minutes.

https://twitter.com/that_mc/status/1...590066180?s=20

Long thread by an actual bus driver about the bus scene. It's a fun read, but the part I didn't know is that if the air brakes fail, there's a secondary brake system that will engage and bring the bus to a halt quickly.

[Ramza00]

I know there was more to this, but China is literally 3.7 million square miles in size. The scale of this, I think, gets lost in some films. We wouldn't assume that anywhere in the US is a short car ride from anywhere else, but China's even larger, so it seems like quite a coincidence there.

This isn't a showstopper for me, because, mostly, this is background, and in the more fantastical portion of the film. Some sort of unique coincidence setting things up is sort of a trope in fantasy, so it's eh, not that big of an obstacle, but I can certainly see why someone would take issue with it.

Yes.

But we are never given actual locations in China for these things, China is a placeholder. Yes I know China if overlaid onto the US and I started in Oregon I can drive east and south and reach Orlando Florida and still be within the map of overlaid China, or I can drive to Maine and then go north another 400 miles into Canada and still be in fictional this is the map of China overlaid onto the US.

————

It requires investment of the viewer into the movie. In my head canon it would make total sense that since the forest brought Shang Chi’s dad and mom together, he would construct a military training base / fortress less than 1 hour away from the forest for this land is now special to him, it was one of the places he felt was home and akin to him. But to my recollection this or another “justificatory” reason was never given to the viewer and thus the viewer must fill in the gaps, and assign projections / head cannons, likewise they can say I do not buy it and it took me out of the movie.

[Muz]

In my head canon it would make total sense that since the forest brought Shang Chi’s dad and mom together, he would construct a military training base / fortress less than 1 hour away from the forest for this land is now special to him, it was one of the places he felt was home and akin to him.

I was about to say something like this. Shang-Chi's mom passed away years ago, and he was interested in conquering the place even before then, so why not set up a staging area nearby while he looks for a way in? It feels like one of those "give the audience 1 + 1 and let them get to 2" sort of deals that I didn't need explicitly stated in exposition.

[Peelee]

I know there was more to this, but China is literally 3.7 million square miles in size. The scale of this, I think, gets lost in some films. We wouldn't assume that anywhere in the US is a short car ride from anywhere else, but China's even larger, so it seems like quite a coincidence there.

Halve that 3.7 million figure. The vast, vast, vast majority of livable China is east of the Hu line.

[LaZodiac]

Another thing worth noting is that they said they had three days till the path opened, but we only visably see two days pass... which means the drive from the fortress to the forest took an entire twenty four hours of driving seemingly nonstop.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think this movie was perfectly mediocre. I like the lead and I can see the character of Shang-Chi in the greater MCU, but I think they need to define his powers a bit more.

Spoiler

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Villain - I liked the villain, and I thought the actor did a great job. I normally like the tragic villain angle but it didn't work as well with me this time around. I'm not sure why. There were some serious Castlevania vibes, which is great, but I don't know what threw it off for me. I am thinking maybe I just don't expect that kind of depth in an MCU villain? Or maybe the timing of the reveal... like it isn't obvious how much he had reformed AND that he is being deceived by the Dweller in Darkness until 2/3 of the way in, and then it's like... Oh, well, I hope they can snap him out of this... But that doesn't really happen, even as he's punching the Gate and demonic minions are bursting out. He pushes Shang-Chi out of the way but then is easily killed, and that seemed like not enough for what they were building towards.

Additionally, how do the Ten Rings (org) stack up to Hydra and SHIELD and all the other organizations out there? And how do the Ten Rings (artifact) work? Apparently they can protect against fire damage, but not psychic intrusion?

Other Villain - The Dweller in Darkness was so... generic tentacle monster thing it hurt. They were trying so hard with the family stuff that this seemed completely inappropriate to tack on this weird giant CGI monster with mini-me minions flying around collecting soul orbs. Also, the Great Protector did half the fighting, which was disappointing. And I guess this super powerful entity can be killed by someone with the Ten Rings, which means it can probably be killed by some other MCU character, which means it isn't nearly as threatening as we were made to believe.

Katy - I found Katy to be mostly irritating. I did appreciate the scene where the lie is revealed, because Katy accepts and understands the lie, and I think this is far more realistic than the normal "I can't believe you lied to me!" response that sees a wedge driven between the lead and their friend/loved one. I too thought it was totally goofy to have Katy train for a few hours and then take the critical shot. But I do want to say that her character development was not in being able to aim that shot, it was simply in being able to take the shot in the first place. We are told that Katy is generally competent at the things she does, but she doesn't ever try to go beyond her abilities. She is afraid of having to try and failing. It's likely that she is good with a bow just in general, and that she can hit a giant dragon tentacle throat. But it's not likely that she would ever try, because Katy is always purposely underachieving. So it's not her aim that shows her growth, but in her stepping up and taking the shot when it mattered the most; when the fate of the world hinged on it. And I'm good with that.

Shang-Chi - I liked him and would like to see more of him in the MCU. But his power set needs definition. Not much more to add here I guess. I would have liked a little more dialogue between him and his sister about him never returning and leaving her to her fate with their father. Although he was 14 and it can be explained/forgiven, I still think that's a big thing needing to be addressed between the two.

Sister - I am okay with her learning martial arts on her own. The MCU is full of geniuses and prodigies so someone that can practice martial arts by watching others and then tweak their own methods/techniques to perfect them and become an expert is fine with me. Also, rope darts are always cool to see. The idea that she has her own pit fighting thing going on is cool. That it's an empire? Not sure I buy that. But they never went into it's scope (that I recall), so no biggie. I think it is cool that she has taken over the Ten Rings and I wonder what that means. I couldn't really gauge where she was on the good/evil spectrum.

Trevor - Hard pass.

CGI Animals - They look cool but obviously fake. I would like to see more asian mythology, but effects need to be prioritized.

Wong - This is a known risk with the shared universe movies but, it just seems out of place that the Sorcerers wouldn't know about the Ten Rings or the Dweller in Darkness. Their whole schtick is to protect the Earth from otherworldly entities.

Combat - The closed fist vs open hand and direct movement vs circular movement was straight out of Jet Li's The One, 20 years ago.

Flashbacks - I think there were too many for me. And I think, IIRC, we saw a couple of flashbacks multiple times as they revealed more information. At one point in the movie I just felt like I was watching more flashbacks than actual present day stuff with the characters.

Overall, this movie was okay. It has promise. I wouldn't mind seeing more of it, but this felt a little disjointed. Hopefully they can focus in on a theme and polish the next one.

[KillianHawkeye]

Out of all the complaints against this movie, "it isn't clear enough that the villain made his lair near the entrance to the magic land, which he learned the location of decades earlier" wasn't on my Bingo card.

[LaZodiac]

Out of all the complaints against this movie, "it isn't clear enough that the villain made his lair near the entrance to the magic land, which he learned the location of decades earlier" wasn't on my Bingo card.

Some people will complain about anything.

[Ramza00]

So the Shang Chi director just signed a movie contract deal with Disney.

https://variety.com/2021/film/news/s...el-1235127253/

Sounds like we are getting a Shang Chi sequel with Director Destin Daniel directing. Also a future Disney plus show but that may be unconnected to Shang Chi. Also the deal is an exclusive deal for several years with Destin Daniel only working for Marvel Studios and Hulu’s Onyx Collective. Yet the relevant details are not being shared with the press at this time,

Someday I hope 🤞 I will get my Kate Bishop doing archery with Katy. Maybe some drunken Karaoke, or perhaps some trick arrow shots competition?