Sorc dip to make Cantrip Monk(ey)

[Foolwise]

Campaign starting at 2nd level and I am thinking going Monk 1/Divine Soul Sorc 1. Thematically this allows me to know Absorb Elements to explain how my Ascendant Dragon monk can harness the five dragon types. Eventually I will multi into Trickery Cleric, the god revealing themself to be the source of my Sorc power and Divine Soul's Favored by the Gods will help me maintain my Invoke Duplicity's concentration.

But the main draw for me is getting all the cantrips.
Dancing Lights- Half-drow racial bonus
Guidance, Thaumaturgy, Word of Radiance- Cleric
Booming Blade, Friends, Mind Sliver, Shocking Grasp- Sorc
Minor Illusion- Trickery Domain homebrew tweak

How quickly would BB and SG fall off if my CHA stays at 13? What about at 16? How does this change after I take the Elven Accuracy feat?

As for level progression, I see three paths. I could keep it straight Monk- Monk 17/Cleric 2/Sorc 1. That would give the cantrips the most prominence and allow me to get the AD subclass capstone.
If I go Monk 11/Cleric 8/Sorc 1, that doubles my use of Invoke Duplicity and gives me access to some great spells. However those spells will not come online until Tier 3.
I can split the diff and go Monk 14/Cleric 5/Sorc 1. Diamond Soul is my cap, and get access to 3rd level spells in Tier 4... prob the weakest option.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Booming blade will be fine - it's based off of your physical attacking stats, not spellcasting, so hat's fine. Shocking grasp will fall off as hard as it can in 5E if you keep charisma at 13 - you're looking at an effective -4 to attack (though if you're fighting against metallic opponents the disadvantages aren't as pronounced).

Ultimately, you're suffering from the fact that Monk is already MAD, and you're effectively eliminating one of their only safe dump stats.

[Foolwise]

This build will make INT and STR my dump stats. And being half-drow gives me a +2 to CHA, so the worst case scenario is a 13 CHA. But I will probably go with another build if my rolls don't pan out.

[Specter]

There's no point in getting Mind Sliver or Shocking Grasp, simply because your Charisma won't be high enough to ever use it decently.
Focus on CHA cantrips that don't need saves or to-hit, otherwise they'll become useless very soon.

[Foolwise]

My character will be a bit of a prankster, so I envision using Shocking Grasp as a kind of joy buzzer if my DM allows me to forego rolling damage in social situations. Mind Sliver should still be viable against low INT creatures. I see using it against non-wizard casters to break concentration and to boost my chance for stunning strikes.

[Chad.e.clark]

My character will be a bit of a prankster, so I envision using Shocking Grasp as a kind of joy buzzer if my DM allows me to forego rolling damage in social situations. Mind Sliver should still be viable against low INT creatures. I see using it against non-wizard casters to break concentration and to boost my chance for stunning strikes.

Keep in mind for Mind Sliver for Stunning Strike: if you use Mind Sliver, that is your 1 action for the round, and you can't use Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows as your bonus action since you didnt take the Attack action during your round. Mind Sliver also debuffs the first Saving Throw the target makes until the end of your next turn. If an ally forces a save on the target, you don't get to apply the debuff on your first attack your next round.

I dont see the math working favorably for using Mind Sliver to set up Stunning Strikes from.an optimization standpoint. But play the character you find fun.

[Foolwise]

Having trouble deciding which class to start with-

Monk gives me Dex/Str STs, and allows me to swap Stealth for Perception as it comes with my Urchin BG (Acrobatics and Sleight of Hand for my other skills). Prof w/ artisan's tools or music instrument.

Sorc gives me Con/Cha STs, but my skills will be Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Deception, and Insight/Persuasion? Enough wealth to roll for starting funds and not take the default starting gear.


So Dex vs. Con STs. I'll get one use of Invoke Duplicity per rest with this build so maintaining it for the full minute is pretty important. So I will grab Warcaster at 5 (Sorc 1/Monk 4). OTOH when I get Evasion (at 10 after Cleric 2 dip) I will be taking half or no damage from Dex saves. Leaning Con but Dex is close.

Str vs. Cha STs. Str will be my 2nd dump stat after Int. Not sure how often Str saves happen, but it would be nice to not be terrible when they do occur. My Cha stat will be at least 14, likely 16. Immune to sleep and adv against charm (half-elf) and can end charm/fear after level 10. Prefer to shore up Str.

Skills. Perception is king. Controlling my duplicate will require great perception, in addition to acrobatics, as I plan to bob and weave with my dupe around my opponent. Conversely, Deception and Insight/Persuasion will allow me to embrace the prankster personality of my character. The Monk subclass does give me a limited adv on Intimidation and Persuasion checks. Hard to pass up Perception.

I don't want to go full Tasha's customization grab bag and just pick the four skills I want. I feel a little dirty using the PHB rule to get Perception by doubling up on Stealth.
If I went Sorc, I could still get Perception and Acrobatics via the Half-Elf's Skill Versatility but that would mean giving up Drow Magic and I do not wish to do that. I would have one less cantrip, no access to Faerie Fire or Darkness via the build (Monk 17/Cleric 2/Sorc 1).

This will be a Monk build, so thematically and logically I feel I should start as a monk, but that Con save prof is very tempting. I will have Divine Soul's Favored by the Gods and Warcaster feat for advantage on those saves... so stick with Monk?

[Christew]

Since you only want one levelled spell, if you could make do with only two cantrips, Magic Initiate might be a shorter path -- especially if you are not dipping Sorcerer for the CON save.

[Foolwise]

The dip into Divine Sorc is for multiple things.
-4 cantrips
-Shield and Absorb Elements (will likely be the main use of my limited spell slots) and having Cure Wounds always prepped is nice too
-Favored by the Gods feat to help maintain concentration of Invoke Duplicity.

Magic Initiate doesn't come close to matching what I get from the Sorc dip. And stats permitting, I want to take Warcaster and Elven Accuracy. But I'll only have four ASIs to play with.

[Garfunion]

Other than trickery domain cleric..
Why not pick up druid and arcane domain cleric instead? You could even go Circle of Wildfire druid and re-skin the fire spirt to look like a dragon.

Through in the Metamagic Adept: Transmuted Spell to sometimes change the damage type of your cantrips.

[Christew]

The dip into Divine Sorc is for multiple things.
-4 cantrips
-Shield and Absorb Elements (will likely be the main use of my limited spell slots) and having Cure Wounds always prepped is nice too
-Favored by the Gods feat to help maintain concentration of Invoke Duplicity.

Magic Initiate doesn't come close to matching what I get from the Sorc dip. And stats permitting, I want to take Warcaster and Elven Accuracy. But I'll only have four ASIs to play with.

You didn't mention wanting shield in your OP. Of course magic initiate doesn't come close in benefits offered, but it also doesn't come close in opportunity cost. Personally, two dips into classes with different casting stats slows progression and increases MADness to a point I am uncomfortable with. If that's not true for you, go crazy and enjoy.

[Foolwise]

Other than trickery domain cleric..
Why not pick up druid and arcane domain cleric instead? You could even go Circle of Wildfire druid and re-skin the fire spirt to look like a dragon.

Through in the Metamagic Adept: Transmuted Spell to sometimes change the damage type of your cantrips.

Arcana would be good for more cantrips as the thread title asks for, but I am merging this idea with another build idea of mine. Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity is the foundation of that build. Think Agent Smith from the Matrix. When my character invokes its duplicate, the monk will be an advantage generating nightmare on the battlefield. In this case, the Sorc dip gives me two melee attack cantrips (BB, SGrasp) so enemies can't focus only on the attacking clone. Along with Shield and Favored by the Gods to keep concentration up.

Since the keystone of this build can only be used once per rest, the extra cantrips will help provide utility as well as diversify my attack options when I am out of ki.

But I can see how this design came out of left field given the OP, sorry.

[Foolwise]

You didn't mention wanting shield in your OP. Of course magic initiate doesn't come close in benefits offered, but it also doesn't come close in opportunity cost. Personally, two dips into classes with different casting stats slows progression and increases MADness to a point I am uncomfortable with. If that's not true for you, go crazy and enjoy.

This build will require good rolls. Obviously I need 13 in Dex, Wis, and Cha from the start. And the priority order in my head goes: Dex>Wis/Con>Cha>Str>Int. Bare min looking to start with 3 16s with Cha at 13/14. But hoping to get Dex at 18 and Con/Wis/Cha at 16. Half-Elf stat boosts will help, but if I roll poor, then I will shelve this idea.

I don't care about minmaxing dpr. I prefer to have jack of all trades, master of none builds. Must be why I gravitate to playing monks. Although if my rolls are poor, I think I'll try a bard instead.

Only real downside to the build is the core design doesn't come online until 8th level and there's always the chance the campaign doesn't last that long.

[Garfunion]

Only real downside to the build is the core design doesn't come online until 8th level and there's always the chance the campaign doesn't last that long.

This is why I never built a character idea beyond 3rd level. The chances of it not being fully realized is too great or it takes too long for it to come online and I may get bored of the character before that. So I tend to do a lot of re-skinning of features and spells to achieve my idea.

What is the primary character concept you’re trying to create, by the way?

[Foolwise]

Almost as unwieldy as the build, lol.

Half-drow urchin that was taken in by a cleric from a Dwarven monastery. When shunned by society, her fall back response are pranks and jokes to grab attention of any kind. DM warned the populace at large will be hostile to drows. I see myself using Disguise Self, Minor Illusion, Friends, Thaumaturgy, disguise kit, and even Invoke Duplicity for social encounters.

Hlal (the prankster dragon of music) will be my diety. Her followers keep their faith secret. As will my monk, who will do things to make it look like she serves Lolth at times, Eilistraee at others.

So definitely a guarded individual from her early days splitting time on the streets and the orphanage to her time secluded in the monastery, enjoying the seclusion but chafing at the strict rules. But at heart, a kind and good-natured soul thanks to some amazing role models who looked past her drow lineage.

[Garfunion]

Almost as unwieldy as the build, lol.

Half-drow urchin that was taken in by a cleric from a Dwarven monastery. When shunned by society, her fall back response are pranks and jokes to grab attention of any kind. DM warned the populace at large will be hostile to drows. I see myself using Disguise Self, Minor Illusion, Friends, Thaumaturgy, disguise kit, and even Invoke Duplicity for social encounters.

Hlal (the prankster dragon of music) will be my diety. Her followers keep their faith secret. As will my monk, who will do things to make it look like she serves Lolth at times, Eilistraee at others.

So definitely a guarded individual from her early days splitting time on the streets and the orphanage to her time secluded in the monastery, enjoying the seclusion but chafing at the strict rules. But at heart, a kind and good-natured soul thanks to some amazing role models who looked past her drow lineage.

That is a lot going on but, have you considered the warlock?

You have two invocations that allow you to cast disguise self and silent image spells at will by second level.

Alternatively maybe talk with your DM to see if you can replace some or all of the shadow monk spells with spells more appropriate for your character.

[Contrast]

How quickly would BB and SG fall off if my CHA stays at 13? What about at 16? How does this change after I take the Elven Accuracy feat?

Keep in mind that the martials arts BA attack/Flurry of Blows requires the Attack action meaning you can't do that the turn you Booming Blade/Shocking Grasp.


I will also make the point I always do that unless you have a plan for consistently getting advantage, there are probably better feats to choose than Elven Accuracy. You aren't really getting a lot out of crit fishing and you aren't rocking SS/GWM where the extra accuracy is more important.

[Foolwise]

Keep in mind that the martials arts BA attack/Flurry of Blows requires the Attack action meaning you can't do that the turn you Booming Blade/Shocking Grasp.


I will also make the point I always do that unless you have a plan for consistently getting advantage, there are probably better feats to choose than Elven Accuracy. You aren't really getting a lot out of crit fishing and you aren't rocking SS/GWM where the extra accuracy is more important.

BB will likely see most usage via Warcaster OA reaction.

Invoke Duplicity will give me advantage for 1 minute, once per rest. I will also have 1/day cast of Faerie Fire. Outside of that, it will be dependent on party tactics.

[Guy Lombard-O]

BB will likely see most usage via Warcaster OA reaction.

Invoke Duplicity will give me advantage for 1 minute, once per rest. I will also have 1/day cast of Faerie Fire. Outside of that, it will be dependent on party tactics.

You do know that moving the ID around costs you your bonus action, right? And you only get the advantage from it if both you and the ID are within 5' of your target when you're attacking? So unless the battle is completely static, you're not going to be doing much in the way of bonus action attacks. Also, ID's generalized difficulty of movement is going to seriously conflict with any attempts by your monk at being a skirmisher, I'd say.

Maybe you'll be happy with this build. But it looks like one that's going to be very, very hard to actualize into effective play.

[Foolwise]

You do know that moving the ID around costs you your bonus action, right?

DM has agreed to tweak Invoke Duplicity so the clone's movement is split with my own. No BA required to move it and it is not locked to 30'. Still requires concentration and clone can only cast spells, but I am hoping to convince him to let the clone use Ki-Enpowered Strikes since those unarmed strikes are magical.

[Garfunion]

DM has agreed to tweak Invoke Duplicity so the clone's movement is split with my own. No BA required to move it and it is not locked to 30'. Still requires concentration and clone can only cast spells, but I am hoping to convince him to let the clone use Ki-Enpowered Strikes since those unarmed strikes are magical.

If your DM is going to allow such alterations to a class feature, would it not be easier to simply create a homebrew monk archetype instead. The shadow monk archetype could be a good baseline for what you want to create.

I know it’s fun to try to create character concepts within the boundaries of the rules. It just seems like you’re putting in a lot of effort in an idea that may not come to pass.

[Falconcry]

Baring looking for things like shield spell sounds more like you would get more from Shadow Monk / Dex Echo Knight than Trickery Cleric / Monk / Sorc. Less MAD and more uptime on duplicate since, if the Echo is destroyed, it is a bonus action to pop it out again rather than waiting to refresh your channel divinity. Add in the monk attacks, the Echo's extra attack and action surge is a whole lot of fists flying around. Multiclassing twice is always better than thrice in my opinion.

[Foolwise]

Baring looking for things like shield spell sounds more like you would get more from Shadow Monk / Dex Echo Knight than Trickery Cleric / Monk / Sorc. Less MAD and more uptime on duplicate since, if the Echo is destroyed, it is a bonus action to pop it out again rather than waiting to refresh your channel divinity. Add in the monk attacks, the Echo's extra attack and action surge is a whole lot of fists flying around. Multiclassing twice is always better than thrice in my opinion.

Shadow Monk is out. I want to play the new Ascendant Dragon subclass. Echo Knight would be a 3 level dip, so it would eliminate both cleric/sorc dips, which does make it less MAD. It also kills most of my character background using Hlal as the source of my cleric/sorc powers and having Absorb Elements to explain harnessing Draconic ki.

PRO- if I start with Fighter, I get more HP, Con and Str saves and have the same four skills as Monk- Acrobatics, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth. Action Surge for novas. Blind Fighting is prob the most synergistic fighting style. No need to concentrate on dupe/spells so ASIs can focus on stats.

CON- Second Wind replaces healing spells. My limited spells would have been used for Shield/Absorb Elements, but I likely would keep one slot open for emergency heals. No cantrips (except Dancing Lights) is a huge loss of utility.

Echo vs. Dupe-
-Dupe only manifests once per rest for 1 min, but is invulnerable to all attacks and is only lost if my character breaks concentration. Echo has unlimited duration/summons, but only has 1 hp and can be destroyed. Repeated summons would wreak havoc on my BA economy.
-Both Dupe and Echo have limited mobility that don't mesh with the monk. I would need to clear with DM if my workaround with the Dupe can apply to Echo.
-Dupe can only attack via spells, which fouls up the monk's action economy but does gives advantage to all attacks. Echo can physically attack, which doesn't affect the action economy, has a limited teleport ability, and can add an extra attack 2/3 times per long rest.
-Outside of combat both the Dupe and Echo have little use. Echo's limited teleport could come in handy occasionally, while the Dupe has greater possibilities for out-of-combat shenanigans, but its limited summons restricts it to combat.


This seems like a straight damage vs. utility trade off. I prefer builds that give me many options to deal with whatever a campaign throws at me over one-trick ponies. But this could be a nice consolation build if my rolls are not strong enough for the Dupe build. Already picturing making shadow boxing with my Echo as part of my rest routine.