OOTS #1243 - The Discussion Thread

[enq]

Go Haley! Woo!

[Peelee]

Oh, indeed. The earlier half of this fight was so frustrating for me, you have no idea.

Without the earlier part the later part wouldn't be as good. If Serini appeared and the Order just cut her down, it would be boring. Now we can see how she poses a great potential danger and is very capable in her abilities. We wouldn't have gotten any of that if the Order just up and won without much hassle. And it would have been boring to boot.

[danielxcutter]

Why do you always equate that opinion of mine with saying they should have cut her down without much hassle? That's not what I meant, it never was.

[Scottzg]

I didn't expect this to be a rogue fight, but i absolutely love it. The balance of who has the advantage changes so fast.

Also, hearts for Sunny. He's a sweetiepie.

[KorvinStarmast]

That Adamantine Dagger continues to pay dividends I see!

Aah, I wasn't sure why her magical dagger helped her to climb walls, but now I get it. Thanks!

"Hands and feet are so overpowered!" envy got me a literal laughing out loud

Amusing.

If it takes Xykon 1 turn and one epic level spell slot to stop a beholder's anti magic field, I say beholder well spent. Xykon is an absolutely terrifying monster and delaying him 1 turn is massive

fair point.

On a side note, I wonder if Haley overheard what Sunny was saying. Hearing that he won't cross the line to stone her to death could help them talk their way out of the fight or at least let them put themselves in more dangerous situations knowing Sunny won't go through with it.

Rogue, hears things well, and I think she heard that since she muttered "keep talking Mom" due to Serini's inputs.

Without the earlier part the later part wouldn't be as good. If Serini appeared and the Order just cut her down, it would be boring.

Yep. Two servings of Momma Starmast's homemade guacamole for you. With home made corn tortilla chips.

[Carlo]

Haley should be able to get the Fly spell back up from the wand now that she's outside of the Anti-Magic Field.

I'm actually confused as to why Haley even needed a wand to fly. V cast some long-term Fly spell on her at the beginning of the day, and she was still flying as of #1221. If V can fly, why can't Haley?

[Peelee]

Why do you always equate that opinion of mine with saying they should have cut her down without much hassle? That's not what I meant, it never was.

Because you were having an issue with a small part of an incomplete fight and were presenting it as if it was a foregone conclusion. Without that, there is significantly less sense of danger to the Order, we don't get a sense of Serini's power and competency, we don't get a sense of Serini's cleverness with traps and herding, we don't get a lot of what the author clearly wanted to convey. We would simply get another character who can throw a punch and then get punched back. That's not who the Giant wanted us to see. He wanted us to see someone who was capable of nearly taking down the entire party, but also a party who could overcome that by working together and helping each other. Your issues with the earlier comic would have gotten us none of that and the story would have been worse for it.

Sure, I hyperbolize a bit when I don't feel like writing out a whole text block like this, but the bones are still solid.

[Shining Wrath]

Because you were having an issue with a small part of an incomplete fight and were presenting it as if it was a foregone conclusion. Without that, there is significantly less sense of danger to the Order, we don't get a sense of Serini's power and competency, we don't get a sense of Serini's cleverness with traps and herding, we don't get a lot of what the author clearly wanted to convey. We would simply get another character who can throw a punch and then get punched back. That's not who the Giant wanted us to see. He wanted us to see someone who was capable of nearly taking down the entire party, but also a party who could overcome that by working together and helping each other. Your issues with the earlier comic would have gotten us none of that and the story would have been worse for it.

Sure, I hyperbolize a bit when I don't feel like writing out a whole text block like this, but the bones are still solid.

Luke hitting the exhaust on the Death Star is a lot more exciting when the previous guy missed a clean shot and now Darth Vader is closing in for the kill. Overcoming obstacles is what heroes do; establishing that obstacles exist is part of storytelling.

I saw A New Hope in theaters, in 1977. When the Death Star exploded the audience stood up and cheered. We aren't likely to get that reaction to the defeat of Serini, because she's no where near as obnoxious as Tarquin.

[danielxcutter]

I'm actually confused as to why Haley even needed a wand to fly. V cast some long-term Fly spell on her at the beginning of the day, and she was still flying as of #1221. If V can fly, why can't Haley?

There's no such thing except for maybe Z's backported 3.0e Fly and some obscure non-Core spells. Fly lasts long enough for scouting out the place like that, but not long enough to still last after waiting in the tunnel for the ambush. And V uses Overland Flight on themselves; it's got poorer mobility and can't target other people but has an hour/CL duration, much longer than Fly.

Edit:

Luke hitting the exhaust on the Death Star is a lot more exciting when the previous guy missed a clean shot and now Darth Vader is closing in for the kill. Overcoming obstacles is what heroes do; establishing that obstacles exist is part of storytelling.

I saw A New Hope in theaters, in 1977. When the Death Star exploded the audience stood up and cheered. We aren't likely to get that reaction to the defeat of Serini, because she's no where near as obnoxious as Tarquin.

Yeeeess, I get what you mean, and I think I may have overreacted a bit due to personal experiences with imbalanced encounters.

But an anti-magic cone ambush like that was so unfair that there really wasn't a way to get out of it without something completely separate from the mechanics like that - yes I know this isn't an actual game, but it's still using the rules as the basic framework - and the Sunny salvo was incredibly obnoxious because it didn't feel like Serini was being competent(plan B or no), it felt like she got lucky with a Hail Mary and came close to wiping out the entire team.

I'm happy with how the fight is going and even if Serini wins I don't think I'll be complaining unless something really stupid like Kraagor manifesting from thin air and Great Cleaving the entire Order with a single swing happens. And I do mean that literally; I'm sure if that even if something on those lines happen Rich will do it better than how I just described it.

[gatemansgc]

i've been reading so much one piece online that when i saw this was posted i started reading right to left. oof.

"we have glue at home", that's cold.

[chy03001]

It never ceases to amaze me how expressive stick figures can be :-D

[Scottzg]

she's no where near as obnoxious as Tarquin.

In the context of star wars i was confused. Tarkin wasn't that obnoxious!

it didn't feel like Serini was being competent(plan B or no), it felt like she got lucky with a Hail Mary and came close to wiping out the entire team.

I think the sunny salvo woulda bothered me a lot more if half the gang didn't throw it off on the very next page. A big part of this battle has been watching Serini be simultaneously OP and in a tenuous situation. The only thing that irked me was that sunny used the most effective spell for each party member.

[Corian]

The only thing that irked me was that sunny used the most effective spell for each party member.

Eye tyrants are smart, and Serini has intelligence on the party which she no doubt imparted in a strategy meeting. So I'm fine with that part. I agree there were a lot of saving throw fails, but heh, it happens, and it does make the reversal more interesting. I expect a few more before this is over.

[MartianInvader]

Whatever happens next, I think Haley wins MVP of this fight.

Followed closely by Bloodfeast.

[Scottzg]

Eye tyrants are smart, and Serini has intelligence on the party which she no doubt imparted in a strategy meeting. So I'm fine with that part.

...and just like that you've undone my only complaint. Nice.

[bunsen_h]

There might be some shenanigans available (e.g. telekinesing a net and grabbing both with it), but otherwise, Sunny only has one TK eye.

Can one have only one Telekinesis spell going at a time? Does Sunny's use of TK "occupy" that eye indefinitely as long as the effect is going?

[Alexandrite]

Well, that was satisfying. Serini really talks too much, even considering that she has an ally to strategize with.

With her likely having a full adventuring party waiting for her when/if she lands I'd imagine this is probably over. No counting out a rogue's bag of tricks, though.

I think Sunny will be inclined to work out a surrender while separated from Serini. Plenty of room for surprises with him too, though. But I don't think we'll see another eye beam barrage, or if we do the Order will actually make some of their saving throws this time.

[Shining Wrath]

Can one have only one Telekinesis spell going at a time? Does Sunny's use of TK "occupy" that eye indefinitely as long as the effect is going?

I read "Ongoing Effect" as requiring concentration, so yes, only one thing levitated / held motionless at a time. But maybe shoving is still allowed. Looks like DM fiat.

[Fyraltari]

Okay, I get it, PCs are harder than stone. Thanks.
Stop the barrage, please.

Haley should be able to get the Fly spell back up from the wand now that she's outside of the Anti-Magic Field.

Oh, right.

So now Haley is going to be engaged in a one-on-one duel with a desperate epic level rogue who is invisible and thus gets surprise every round. Not so good, even if it only lasts one round. We're going to be lucky if Haley doesn't need a resurrection.

Wouldn't V be able to dispell the invisibility.

Oh, indeed. The earlier half of this fight was so frustrating for me, you have no idea.

No, I think we have a pretty good idea of how frustrating you found it.

But an anti-magic cone ambush like that was so unfair

Ambushes are unfair by their very nature.

Well, that was satisfying. Serini really talks too much, even considering that she has an ally to strategize with.

Isolation can do that to people.

[pendell]

I expect this to be added to Haley's Crowning Moment of Awesomeness page on Tvtropes. THAT was cool.

We also have more evidence that Sunny is some flavor of good, given their unwillingness to risk Haley's life, though she is technically an enemy at this time.

I say "their" because for the life of me I don't know Sunny's gender, nor whether it's even relevant to a floating eye-thingie.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[BenjaminGeiger]

I didn't realize Haley studied Ti Kwan Leep.

[Doug Lampert]

Okay, I get it, PCs are harder than stone. Thanks.
Stop the barrage, please.

But they're not, they just roll with the blow, (not to mention having divine favor and luck to help them).

People are flexible, stone is rigid, stone is also heavier, this means it's not unreasonable for a fall that a person considers trivial to shatter stone.

Old statues are often missing arms, because they break.

[Dewin Dwl]

What I was expecting: the Order use their turns to undo all the status effects then hopefully pass their saves next round and then begin the comeback.

What I was not expecting: Haley solos the encounter.

By doing it this way, all that status-effect-undo can happen off-screen. Given that we just had a full strip of that, a change of narrative keeps things fresh. We should have one or two Order members back in the game next strip.

[georgie_leech]

So, does this qualify as a Sneak Attack Boot-to-the-face?

[skim172]

I say "their" because for the life of me I don't know Sunny's gender, nor whether it's even relevant to a floating eye-thingie.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Theory: Eye monsters reproduce asexually. Each of those eight tentacle eyes eventually matures and buds off to become a separate eye monster of their own.

What happens is that eventually, one of the tentacle eyes develops its own mouth. And then the eye will just not stop talking, no matter what the main eye keeps telling it to do. And of course, it's just gotta be contrarian about everything, bickering about the most pettiest of issues - until finally the main eye gets fed up, pulls the eye down and bites through the tentacle like its an umbilical cord, severing the mouthy upstart from the main eye like they're evicting a bad roommate. And then you have a new tiny Beholder.

This conveniently explains why Beholders are naturally Evil. Nice, well-mannered, polite, thoughtful, affable tentacle eyes never get annoying enough for the main eye to finally kick them out. Consequently, only the most ill-tempered, most aggravating tentacle eyes ever gain their independence. Their method of reproduction favors being Evil.

[deworde]

Haley there bringing the ROGUE

[KorvinStarmast]

Eye tyrants are smart, and Serini has intelligence on the party which she no doubt imparted in a strategy meeting. So I'm fine with that part.

Yep.
Speaking of saving throw fails. DC 14 Wisdom save (fear) last week. Party was seven PCs and six Berserkers who'd been summoned from horn of valhalla. 1 PC and 1 berserker saved, the rest fled from the Eidolon to include the cleric with the 20 wisdom. So I have seen it happen. And the previous session, an Oblex cast Confusion with a DC 18 and All three PCs saved! It can sure be swingy.

Whatever happens next, I think Haley wins MVP of this fight.

Gets my vote.

Serini really talks too much, even considering that she has an ally to strategize with.

She's old and eccentric, of course she talks too much. (Kind of like my mother in law, and for that matter, me sometimes ...)

So, does this qualify as a Sneak Attack Boot-to-the-face?

Belkar will be the judge of that.

[Jason]

Haylee is awesome.
Unarmed Strikes: They're not just for monks anymore!

[Shining Wrath]

Okay, I get it, PCs are harder than stone. Thanks.
<SNIP>

Wouldn't V be able to dispell the invisibility.

<SNIP>

Dispel Magic is available to most casting classes, they just have to (A) have it prepared and (B) be able to cast it - right now both V & Durkon are out of the fight. And the number of extra d6s an Epic Rogue gets for a sneak attack requires Serini to have her own dice factory. At 19th level it's +10d6, so maybe +12d6 or +14d6. For each of three attacks per round. 12d6 averages 42, plus the normal weapon damage (d6 + magic bonus for a short sword plus a whole big batch of adds from epic dexterity - call it another 20 points per hit). If Serini can hit 3 times, 180 points of damage in a single round is NOT out of the question.

I expect this to be added to Haley's Crowning Moment of Awesomeness page on Tvtropes. THAT was cool.

We also have more evidence that Sunny is some flavor of good, given their unwillingness to risk Haley's life, though she is technically an enemy at this time.

I say "their" because for the life of me I don't know Sunny's gender, nor whether it's even relevant to a floating eye-thingie.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Per the 5e write-up on Beholders, they reproduce via dreaming, and their dreams become real. Usually this does not increase the number of Beholders in the world, as new and old fight to the death. Sometimes they don't, though.

But they're not, they just roll with the blow, (not to mention having divine favor and luck to help them).

People are flexible, stone is rigid, stone is also heavier, this means it's not unreasonable for a fall that a person considers trivial to shatter stone.

Old statues are often missing arms, because they break.

A fall of 200 feet:

• Is a frightening ride for a mouse
• Injures a cat
• Kills a human
• Turns a horse into a barely recognizable mound of goo

[Draconi Redfir]

Nice moves Haley!