OOTS #1243 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

Oh, and in 3.5e beholders, uh, reproduce through the only hole in their head they have. Yeah, that one. Also they kill the ones that they deem too different from themselves.

[Petrocorus]

9.9 From the Swedish judge
9.8 from the Russian judge.
10.0 from the Brazilian judge.

9.9 from the French judge too.

Either Sunny uses his eye - which pretty much takes away all of Serini's magic items, her invisibility as well leaving her alone again an entire party - all of which are capable fighters

And incidently, it will also undo most of the debuffs the Order is suffering of. A

Regardless I'll assume this option is off the table since it's kind of clear Bloodfeast isn't getting involved (and Belkar will shove him as soon as the anti magic is back)

I wonder about this. Right now, the AMF is not on the Order, but if Sunny does try to AMF them again, then Bloodfeast is turning back to full allosaurus.
This also means that Elan and Minrah are probably getting V and Roy back up by now.

I think the Giant would disapprove of someone being considered less moral just because they're of a "monstrous" race.

Well, the 3.5 material does describe the beholders as monstrous in their thinking. They are almost literally hardwired to be mad, hateful and paranoid.

[danielxcutter]

Well, the 3.5 material does describe the beholders as monstrous in their thinking. They are almost literally hardwired to be mad, hateful and paranoid.

And Rich absolutely loathes that the devs make any species innately evil. Personally I'd say actually giving enough justification and elaboration makes it less problematic, but as a whole I'm inclined to agree with him.

[Peelee]

And Rich absolutely loathes that the devs make any species innately evil. Personally I'd say actually giving enough justification and elaboration makes it less problematic, but as a whole I'm inclined to agree with him.

I'm 100% with you on everything you said there.

[hungrycrow]

And Rich absolutely loathes that the devs make any species innately evil. Personally I'd say actually giving enough justification and elaboration makes it less problematic, but as a whole I'm inclined to agree with him.

I think Rich is also willing to have certain creatures be innately evil: all of the sentient undead we've seen have been monstrous and even the good Vampire Durkon suggested his change of heart was only temporary.
It just gets uncomfortable when the creatures are just humans with different features and identical jerk personalities.

[Obscuraphile]

I love the implication that Haley has a magic dye job. I know it’s just a representation of the AMF but it’s still funny.

[littlebum2002]

But an anti-magic cone ambush like that was so unfair that there really wasn't a way to get out of it without something completely separate from the mechanics like that

Do you feel that way about Xykon, too? He's WAY too high a level to be an appropriate encounter for the Order.

[danielxcutter]

I think Rich is also willing to have certain creatures be innately evil: all of the sentient undead we've seen have been monstrous and even the good Vampire Durkon suggested his change of heart was only temporary.
It just gets uncomfortable when the creatures are just humans with different features and identical jerk personalities.

It appears Rich is willing to make concessions with outsiders(literally made of X alignment) and undead(literally powered by negative energy) in the context of OoTS at the least, but beholders are neither. Granted, "canon" beholders are also wired to be pretty cuckoo by human standards, but I think Rich has a similar philosophy when it comes to sentients as Keith Baker, creator of Eberron. Keith has a blog and he says stuff like an aberration is probably going to have a hard time being Good even if raised away from their abusive masters and kin and be fundamentally different, but at the same time it'd be possible to achieve non-Evilness.

Also yes, it's particularly oof when the creatures are basically funny-looking humans.

Do you feel that way about Xykon, too? He's WAY too high a level to be an appropriate encounter for the Order.

I'll be honest, I'm expecting Roy to Bull Rush him through the Rift and then he gets eaten by the Snarl.

[hamishspence]

It appears Rich is willing to make concessions with outsiders(literally made of X alignment) and undead(literally powered by negative energy) in the context of OoTS at the least

Even undead have been portrayed with nuance by The Giant.

In Good Deeds Gone Unpunished:

Spoiler

Show

The Katos meet a friendly ghost, try and find a role for her in their settlement - and then introduce Hinjo to her.

Hinjo makes it clear that, to him, ghosts and the living are morally similar - living creatures are souls with bodies, ghosts are souls without bodies.

And he treats her as very much a person - which means that, if she's doing a job, she must get paid.

[Windscion]

So, it is entirely plausible that in one or two pages the Order will realize who they are up against. After all, if Sunny looks at Haley and Serini with zir central eye, goodbye invisibility. And if Sunny doesn't use zir central eye, ze cannot see Serini, and cannot break Serini's fall. I do not see Sunny letting "Mom" be hurt, altho Serini might have indoctrinated Sunny to not worry about falls.
Granted that the Order doesn't know what Serini looks like, she is indisputably an old female halfling involved with the gates .

[danielxcutter]

Even undead have been portrayed with nuance by The Giant.

In Good Deeds Gone Unpunished:

Spoiler

Show

The Katos meet a friendly ghost, try and find a role for her in their settlement - and then introduce Hinjo to her.

Hinjo makes it clear that, to him, ghosts and the living are morally similar - living creatures are souls with bodies, ghosts are souls without bodies.

And he treats her as very much a person - which means that, if she's doing a job, she must get paid.

Spoiler

Show

To be fair, ghosts are one of the few exceptions to the default "undead are Evil" thing. Also taunting haunts, but that's all I can remember at the moment.

[P. G. Macer]

Oh, yeah! That was amazing! Go Haley, go Haley! *waves pom-poms*

Also, the conversation about petrification between Sunny and Serini was a little disturbing, especially as I’m struggling to tell how comedic Sunny’s bold-italic response to “we have glue at home” is supposed to be. Is it supposed to be like a whiney kid’s “Mo-om!” or more like an adult telling their mother “Mom.”?

[danielxcutter]

So, it is entirely plausible that in one or two pages the Order will realize who they are up against. After all, if Sunny looks at Haley and Serini with zir central eye, goodbye invisibility. And if Sunny doesn't use zir central eye, ze cannot see Serini, and cannot break Serini's fall. I do not see Sunny letting "Mom" be hurt, altho Serini might have indoctrinated Sunny to not worry about falls.
Granted that the Order doesn't know what Serini looks like, she is indisputably an old female halfling involved with the gates .

I mean there aren't many other candidates so I wouldn't be too shocked if at least one member of the Order'd guessed who Serini is.

[woweedd]

YOU JUST GOT OUTROGUED, LADY!

And Rich absolutely loathes that the devs make any species innately evil. Personally I'd say actually giving enough justification and elaboration makes it less problematic, but as a whole I'm inclined to agree with him.

In the case of Beholders, I think the implication is less "they're all born evil" and more "the ones that aren't born evil are killed by their parents as weaklings before reaching adulthood", but fair.

[Fyraltari]

And Rich absolutely loathes that the devs make any species innately evil. Personally I'd say actually giving enough justification and elaboration makes it less problematic, but as a whole I'm inclined to agree with him.

These explanations pretty much never hold up to scrutiny, though. Then again, what does in fantasy? And also raise the question of why your story needs your universe to be prejudiced.

all of the sentient undead we've seen have been monstrous.

Behold, the most terrible monster the Order of the Stick ever faced!

[ManuelSacha]

Ah, yes!
Uncanny Dodgeball.
I've seen the YouTube videos.

[Seward]

Aah, I wasn't sure why her magical dagger helped her to climb walls, but now I get it.

Yeh. Adamantine isn't magic, it just lets you cut through anything not 20 hardness as if it had zero hardness. Adamantine weapons are awesome utility tools. Climbing, "lockpicking" by cutting the lock in half, using your "Craft Sculpture" skill on random rocks in downtime tc.

[Bisqwit]

I love the implication that Haley has a magic dye job. I know it’s just a representation of the AMF but it’s still funny.

What do you mean by the implication?
It is an established convention in this comic that an antimagic field makes everything extremely desaturated.

[danielxcutter]

These explanations pretty much never hold up to scrutiny, though. Then again, what does in fantasy? And also raise the question of why your story needs your universe to be prejudiced.

I did say less problematic.

[Mr Popo]

Glorious. A truly enjoyable kick.

[InvisibleBison]

And the number of extra d6s an Epic Rogue gets for a sneak attack requires Serini to have her own dice factory. At 19th level it's +10d6, so maybe +12d6 or +14d6. For each of three attacks per round. 12d6 averages 42, plus the normal weapon damage (d6 + magic bonus for a short sword plus a whole big batch of adds from epic dexterity - call it another 20 points per hit). If Serini can hit 3 times, 180 points of damage in a single round is NOT out of the question.

Except that Serini can't sneak attack Haley. Haley has uncanny dodge, so she retains her Dexterity bonus when attacked by an invisible creature and thus isn't vulnerable to sneak attacks.

[danielxcutter]

Except that Serini can't sneak attack Haley. Haley has uncanny dodge, so she retains her Dexterity bonus when attacked by an invisible creature and thus isn't vulnerable to sneak attacks.

Yes, but she is easily capable of deleting one member of the Order so hard even Resurrection might not work unless she blows a roll or two.

No, I do not expect her to actually do that.

[Shining Wrath]

Except that Serini can't sneak attack Haley. Haley has uncanny dodge, so she retains her Dexterity bonus when attacked by an invisible creature and thus isn't vulnerable to sneak attacks.

I had forgotten that, even though she excels at Uncanny Dodgeball . The only way she can be sneak attacked is if Sunny comes down and flanks her, and Serini is 4+ levels higher. The latter is likely, the former puts Sunny at extreme risk - which they may accept to save Mom.

[KorvinStarmast]

And if Sunny doesn't use zir central eye, ze cannot see Serini, and cannot break Serini's fall.

Setting up an "I've fallen and I can't get up" joke if Haley has her grappled ...

“we have glue at home”

Serini is an epic level adventurer. She's been up to her waist in blood and gore before, over the course of her adventures and battles with the Scribblers. Sunny hasn't the benefit of that experience and is thus trying real hard to stick to the plan Serini had laid out, to include its constraints. Serini is all about the win, and she's the mission leader ...

In the case of Beholders, I think the implication is less "they're all born evil" and more "the ones that aren't born evil are killed by their parents as weaklings before reaching adulthood", but fair.

Yeah, that lore seems to fit the later editions of D&D well enough, but lore need not be considered to be binding.
The game's lore is a seed for the imagination, not a hard and fast rule.

Adamantine isn't magic, it just lets you cut through anything not 20 hardness as if it had zero hardness. Adamantine weapons are awesome utility tools. Climbing, "lockpicking" by cutting the lock in half, using your "Craft Sculpture" skill on random rocks in downtime tc.

Sweet. I wonder if my 5e DM will concur with that theme; one of our PCs has adamantine half plate, so the chance that I might get an adamantine dagger is greater than 0 even if it isn't super high.
And our party is in and about a really big dwarf colony just now.
What shall I trade for an adamantine dagger if there's one available? Hmmmmmm...need to talk to my DM.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Sunny is so adorable in this comic, between their comment about limbs and the arguing with "Mom". I hope that Sunny will be sticking around for a good chunk of this book. I'm also excited to see the Rogue vs. Rogue action that will be present in the next strip!

[Fyraltari]

Serini is an epic level adventurer. She's been up to her waist in blood and gore before, over the course of her adventures and battles with the Scribblers. Sunny hasn't the benefit of that experience and is thus trying real hard to stick to the plan Serini had laid out, to include its constraints. Serini is all about the win, and she's the mission leader ...

Maybe the starting assumption should be that the person who objects to actions that would kill people just doesn't want to kill people?

[Michaeler]

In the case of Beholders, I think the implication is less "they're all born evil" and more "the ones that aren't born evil are killed by their parents as weaklings before reaching adulthood", but fair.

Though to be fair, Sunny appears to have been adopted relatively early in life.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Also, the conversation about petrification between Sunny and Serini was a little disturbing, especially as I’m struggling to tell how comedic Sunny’s bold-italic response to “we have glue at home” is supposed to be. Is it supposed to be like a whiney kid’s “Mo-om!” or more like an adult telling their mother “Mom.”?

Putting the pieces of a broken petrified person back is enough for them to be whole when de-petrified.

My impression is this is sort of like the "Cleric's feather fall": not a big deal to a seasoned adventurer, although a big deal to "normal" people.

[Necris Omega]

Also they kill the ones that they deem too different from themselves.

They're not evil - they're just pathological narcissists!

If nothing else, it keeps them in small-solitary encounters. Beholders are stupid powerful enough as it is with just one of them (this comic being exhibit a).

That said, I do prefer the 3.5 interpretations, if only because I like to keep my Far Realm influences kept as much on the periphery as possible. Beholders are pretty bombastic, and Lovecraft-based horror is more vulnerable to the effects of exposure than most other forms.

[TuringTest]

The only thing that irked me was that sunny used the most effective spell for each party member.

That could be carefully prepared in advance as part of the plan. But it confirms that Serini has been watching the Order quite a bit more that we expected, if she can be so effective with the planning.

Haylee is awesome.
Unarmed Strikes: They're not just for monks anymore!

Amen there!