OOTS #1243 - The Discussion Thread

[Lord Vukodlak]

So Haley's little maneuver reminds me of something I pulled off in a D&D campaign a decade back. Where my Lizardman fighter leapt off the top of a tower to grapple a beholder. Now the combined weight of himself and his armor exceeded the beholders maximum load.
So we slowly float down screaming in agony like a balloon with just a little to much weight. The Beholder because I have it by two stalks. And myself because I was getting blast in the face.

Later he prepared float roast.(he cooked and ate the beholder)

[Xihirli]

Is there a particular reason that Haley was able to kick Serini but Serini couldn't shoot Haley? Is there a mechanical explanation or just "Haley rolled better?"

[TriForce]

The definitive guide to character inteeligence:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html

hmm, you know, that beholder a few comics after the one you linked looks exactly like sunny. same eye colour and everything. wonder if thats intentional

[Kantaki]

"Hands and feet are so overpowered!" envy got me a literal laughing out loud, and I don't get many of those.

Is Sunny wrong?
No, they aren't.

But it's a great line, yes.

[BarakDeathBlade]

hmm, you know, that beholder a few comics after the one you linked looks exactly like sunny. same eye colour and everything. wonder if thats intentional

I believe the Giant has said one of the orange/green voices that captured O-Chul and Lein was a recurring character who had appeared in exactly one prior page. Serini's been in multiple, so that leaves Sunny.

Intentional, or an excellent case of "fake it until you make it" or "feign it until they ordain it."

[faustin]

When a beholder have to talk you out of performing a morally questionable action, maybe it´s time to reconsider your alignment.

[Peelee]

When a beholder have to talk you out of performing a morally questionable action, maybe it´s time to reconsider your alignment.

Eye Tyrant is pretty clearly not evil, so I doubt that assertion.

[BarakDeathBlade]

So here's a thought.

I'm assuming, the effects of the center eye last an entire round, even though Haley has left the area of effect. So whatever movement she has done, going up ~ 30 feet under fly, then doing a trapeze act off her bow and kicking Serini, she no longer has Fly for this round?

So she could regain Fly in mid fall, when she uses up her movement?

There's precedent:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html

[Fyraltari]

Is there a particular reason that Haley was able to kick Serini but Serini couldn't shoot Haley? Is there a mechanical explanation or just "Haley rolled better?"

She did shoot Haley. In panel 5.

[Arutema]

Is there a particular reason that Haley was able to kick Serini but Serini couldn't shoot Haley? Is there a mechanical explanation or just "Haley rolled better?"

Presumably yes, dice luck. With uncanny dodge, Haley is the one member of the OOTS who's not flat-footed against Serini's attacks from invisibility, which means Serini needs a higher dice roll to hit Haley than any other member.

[Borris]

Is there a particular reason that Haley was able to kick Serini but Serini couldn't shoot Haley? Is there a mechanical explanation or just "Haley rolled better?"

I see that less as an unarmed attack and more as a bull rush (as part of a charge) that pushed Serini off Sunny's back. Serini didn't get an attack of opportunity because she didn't have a melee weapon out. And Sunny didn't make one (with a bite) because there would have been a 25% chance to hit Serini.

Between a +2 for charging, a halfling's -2 penalty to Strength (plus a possible penalty for old age), and a -4 size penalty, Haley was pretty much assured to win the opposed Strength check.

[Borris]

It does not reflect well on Serini when a literal monster is less monstrous than her...

I'm surprised that no one else pointed this out, but Serini is also a literal monster. Halflings are right there in the Monster Manual, just between half-fiends and harpies

[Jay R]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

... then they are at least as high as a pedestal, according to this article.

Stone is stronger than flesh, but far more brittle.

[Gusion]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

It is only a DC 30 tumble check to ignore 20 feet of fall damage. As an epic level rogue, she can probably make this in her sleep. She probably can make a DC 45 to ignore 30 feet of fall damage, but obviously I'm less certain on that one.

It does not reflect well on Serini when a literal monster is less monstrous than her...

In 1241 Serini wanted the beholderish creature to "hit 'em with everything you got." It was the creature who said, "but not #8, right?" at which Serini said "fine..."

So it isn't anything new that Serini doesn't especially care if they die.

[wilphe]

The loyalty that Sunny shows Serini is an important quality in an ally.

So is thinking on your feet. He needs to work on that.

Well you know, Beholder...

[Sir_Norbert]

I believe the Giant has said one of the orange/green voices that captured O-Chul and Lein was a recurring character who had appeared in exactly one prior page. Serini's been in multiple, so that leaves Sunny.

Not quite. The Giant said, as a teaser in the previous book, that some time in this book we'd re-encounter a character who had appeared in exactly one page so far. A few people guessed -- even though it made zero sense -- that it would be either the green or orange voice, with 1189 as their one appearance. Now that Sunny's appeared, it's very likely that Sunny is the one-appearance character and previously appeared in 32, but we still don't know for certain.

[bt109]

THIS is why I love Haley! Brilliant use of an open feint going to the bow: Sunny thinks she's going to use it as a weapon, so she holds tighter...which is exactly what Haley wants her to do.

I already use her to explain shell games, and this works for one of the 36 Stratagems. I betcha we could find examples of the other 35, too.

Okay, now I've got a project.

[JonahFalcon]

I hope this "heroes fighting heroes" trope is finally concluded.

[elros]

One of my dislikes in every fantasy movie, game, etc are the matrix knock-off characters with high damage bursts, missile attacks that never miss, or dodges that make them impossible to hit. It was kind of neat 20 years ago, but not anymore.
I realize everything happens to further the plot, and in a couple of strips I won’t care, but Haley pulling the combo of Spider-Man and Neo against an epic rogue focused entirely on her just doesn’t work for me.

[danielxcutter]

One of my dislikes in every fantasy movie, game, etc are the matrix knock-off characters with high damage bursts, missile attacks that never miss, or dodges that make them impossible to hit. It was kind of neat 20 years ago, but not anymore.
I realize everything happens to further the plot, and in a couple of strips I won’t care, but Haley pulling the combo of Spider-Man and Neo against an epic rogue focused entirely on her just doesn’t work for me.

I understand what you mean, but I still find it more entertaining than the trope where something's just tough enough to "nope" everything via facetanking.

[enq]

Also, it's not like Haley has been #nbd (no big deal) dodging Serini's attacks. Except perhaps the last one, in which all her time spent with Elan allowed her to pun-dodge.

[BriarHobbit]

This was awesome. All of it. The fight is not done, but I like this new revelation.

[bt109]

One of my dislikes in every fantasy movie, game, etc are the matrix knock-off characters with high damage bursts, missile attacks that never miss, or dodges that make them impossible to hit. It was kind of neat 20 years ago, but not anymore.
I realize everything happens to further the plot, and in a couple of strips I won’t care, but Haley pulling the combo of Spider-Man and Neo against an epic rogue focused entirely on her just doesn’t work for me.

Okay, but...how high level is Haley? The Order has to be in their late teens, right? In order for Haley's Uncanny Dodge to work, Sereni can't be more than 5 levels higher.

And it's not like Sereni doesn't have anything putting her at a disadvantage here. Sunny's distracting her in multiple ways, and she's clearly not had this big a challenge in a while.

[DLcygnet]

Dear Giant,

I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this page, along with many many others; but this one in particular had great pacing, action and comedy, not to mention a fantastic punch-line. Also, rogue family picnics sound fun!

❤

[danielxcutter]

Okay, but...how high level is Haley? The Order has to be in their late teens, right? In order for Haley's Uncanny Dodge to work, Sereni can't be more than 5 levels higher.

And it's not like Sereni doesn't have anything putting her at a disadvantage here. Sunny's distracting her in multiple ways, and she's clearly not had this big a challenge in a while.

It's only Improved Uncanny Dodge, which has to do with flanking, that counts the relevant class levels. Serini could literally have hundreds of levels and technically normal Uncanny Dodge would work just fine.

[Psyren]

Even undead have been portrayed with nuance by The Giant.

In Good Deeds Gone Unpunished:

Spoiler

Show

The Katos meet a friendly ghost, try and find a role for her in their settlement - and then introduce Hinjo to her.

Hinjo makes it clear that, to him, ghosts and the living are morally similar - living creatures are souls with bodies, ghosts are souls without bodies.

And he treats her as very much a person - which means that, if she's doing a job, she must get paid.

Ghosts are a special case though, even D&D does not make them always evil. They are more disembodied tragic soul than negative energy (as compared to say, shadows and wraiths.) In other words, ghosts do not have to conform to any author's general stance on undead, whether that author is Rich or the D&D/PF devs themselves.

[Ruck]

She did shoot Haley. In panel 5.

And in panel 6, we see she missed.

[TuringTest]

... then they are at least as high as a pedestal, according to this article.

Stone is stronger than flesh, but far more brittle.

It should still be higher than an absurdly high air sigil.

Also, it's not like Haley has been #nbd (no big deal) dodging Serini's attacks. Except perhaps the last one, in which all her time spent with Elan allowed her to pun-dodge.

Now I like that dodge even more!

[Sebastian]

So, can Sunny's telekinesis catch them both? Because if they are high enough for stone to shatter on impact...

When you get to a high enough level turning to a stone statue give you less hitpoints.

[diplomancer]

Once I was carrying a small stone tabletop. I tripped and fell down, dropping the tabletop. I was uninjured, but the tabletop split in half.
It's easier to cut flesh than stone, but stone is far more breakable than flesh.