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Thread: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
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2021-09-25, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
It's only flawed if your starting point is that every party member should be optimised. There's nothing inherent in DnD that says that should be so. The reason its often like that in DnD games is that most players instinctively want to try and maximise the power they get out of their character. That's not what OotS represents. It treats its characters (including the PCs) like people from a DnDesque universe would be - that is not at all optimised for particular roles.
That is consistent with the real world - are you perfectly optmised for a particular role, not wasting your skill points on anything but whatever is necessary to advance a key role or purpose? Do you try to improve your intelligence or strnegth or charisma because they are necessary to your role to the exclusion of other attributes that are not?
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2021-09-25, 01:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Yeah, I would argue that's not a flaw: Quite the opposite. The story of OOTS is, in many ways, the story of a bunch of incompetent quirky yahoos lucking into a position where their actions hold literarily cosmic significance, and having to grow and mature into the kind of people who would deserve that. That necessities they start out flawed and failable. It is a running gag of the early comic that the Order are incompetent, and Roy is basically the only thing keeping them together, and, while they grow, they remain fairly dysfunctional, both for comedy and because that makes scenes like the Holy Word one in the pyramid, where they actually do manage to pull it together and accomplish something, all the more satisfying. There's a reason sports movies aren't about the team who is objectively the best at sports. The climax will not come down to who has the better spell list. It will come down to, ya know, the characters and their development.
Last edited by woweedd; 2021-09-25 at 01:27 AM.
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2021-09-25, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
No. Tier disparity exists irrespective of optimization. Durkon and V are not optimized, but each one is still more powerful than the other four members of the party put together even as actively portrayed in the comic. This is simply a feature of high level 3.5e D&D and insofar as the comic is committed to following the rules of said system it is a feature of OOTS. The result is a distinct imbalance in the ability of the characters to accomplish narrative goals in-universe. The characters the comic is (or was until recently) the least interested in as characters are those most capable of solving its goals.
Martial caster disparity is a fundamental problem of D&D and has impacted D&D fiction, mostly negatively for as long as D&D fiction has existed. Seriously, Raistlin Majere is not the protagonist of the Dragonlance Chronicles (1e rules), and yet after spending the majority of his time moping and being cynical for the first two thirds of the trilogy he shows up at the end and completely tears control of the climax out of the hands of Tanis Half-Elven (a character Roy has an awful lot in common with, actually) and makes it dance to his deranged tune.
OOTS, through circumstances largely outside the author's control once he committed to the system, was running towards the same sort of conclusion until it swerved aside and spent several hundred strips with the primary impact of elevating Durkon to co-protagonist status. That was an imperfect solution - I did not find the deep dive into Durkon's backstory compelling and those are among the strips I am least inclined to reread - but I get why it was done.
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2021-09-25, 03:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Despite his lack of character development, I would say V is my favourite among the 6 members of the order. Most of the best characters to my mind are not on the team, though Belkar has his moments. Tarquin, Redcloak and Xykon for example are infinitely more interesting, well written and satisfying characters than anyone in the order. Even O'Chul is more compelling. It is kind of getting to the point of comedy how much V has to be sidelined for the plot to remotely work. As we've discussed, the author is aware of the dilemma that V could often solve their problems with a few choice spells. Remember what an awesome character Tarquin was? How deadly he seemed? The story could only present him in such a way, and give us such a great fight, because V was knocked out while it was going on. If he wasn't he can just beat Tarquin with 1 spell, e.g. forcecage. Goodbye Tarquin. Forceful hand. Goodbye Tarquin. Resilient Sphere. Goodbye Tarquin. They then had to bring in a caster to negate V after he returned (they actually brought 2 in), so that Tarquin's plot could continue with V present.
In order to make the story work V has been polymorphed into a Lizard, poisoned before the fight can begin, split off from the party, absent running errands, on another plane of existence, unconscious, had his soul trapped on another plane of existence, off banishing elementals, etc. We're now at the point where V is probably level 17+, and frankly I'm ready for V to start getting a chance to actually, like, use their ability as the teams strongest member by far to, like, actually advance the plot.Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-09-25 at 03:22 AM.
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2021-09-25, 03:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
The Familicide arc was all about giving V a metric ton of character development - changing V's attitudes to what the proper uses of power were, and so forth.
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2021-09-25, 03:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-25, 05:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
That wasn't my point. I don't mind you saying that V and Durkon are the strongest members of the party based on how they actually perform in combat (not how you think they might if they optimised their gameplay). My objections was to the implication that there is something wrong with their portrayal because they are not built optimally or do not act optimally.
Not being built or acting optimally is the norm - going for an optimal build or playstyle is the exception and generally exists only in gaming.
Having said all that, I am not sure that Durkon and V have outperformed the others in combats we have seen. Mundanes have played a significant role, if not the key role, in several of their big combats.
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2021-09-25, 05:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
I feel like you've shot way past whatever reasonable point you were trying to make and are at the point of complaining that V isn't a Mary Sue. That you're going so far as to be complaining the story dare depict the "glass" part of "glass canon" at all. Just being hyperbolic in exasperation or something, I suppose, but *shrug* that's what it feels like to me.
Incidentally, being polymorphed into a lizard in #176 didn't even take V out of the picture. The only encounters during that time were a long fall and a black dragon, in both of which V saved the day.
And being poisoned in #712, that's a pretty great demonstration of the point others were making earlier, about wizards not always getting to choose to fight the battle on their terms.
And, apparently, the lesson about the application of arcane power he could have learned from being turned into a lizard didn't stick -- off hand I sort of feel like rather than taking to heart the idea of applying arcane power to its best effect, it instead reinforced his arrogance, along the lines that arcane power is so great that just having a little bit of it was enough to achieve victory.Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-09-25 at 05:41 AM.
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2021-09-25, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
First, Mimi is one action away from flanking position, and with her potential sub-role as a lurker, it might turn the table pretty quickly.
But also: we're at one neutralize poison distance because Roy might invoke rational thinking into Serini.
I'm answering this thread because it is about Roy! He's so simply powerful and influential that sometimes has to be out of combat, like V at Giraraard's gate. Or against Miko first edition or against Thog on unfavorable conditions. Roy is the only one that can solve this messy setup, have the fortitude to resist most of the attack and use his uber-powered familty swordy feat.
but, ops! my true answer is rampant speculation on how things would go in the next 15 strips after 1244, therefore:
Spoiler
Roy might attempt to peace-treaty with Serini, But this shouldn't happen! the order of the stick would not solve the plot, and nobody from the order of the scribble should have time to offer knowledge or anything (at least not before be ready to seal new gates, if really OOTS needs their consultancy.)
But someone else doesn't want this: the IFCC, which artifact-ready would likely exploit V somehow to interrupt any potential peace treaty.
Serini has to die; Belklar might likely unlive (and probably some of his animal companions). We also know only one creature would join the party, and that's Sunny. Roy against an enraged Sunny and the IFCC problem, is the only one that can solve this messy setup and restore what's left of the order!
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2021-09-25, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
So what? The “class tiers” are all about combat. Who cares about combat? OotS is not a story about combat. Combat is not a narrative goal, and effectiveness in combat is not particularly important in whether or not any character reaches their narrative goal.
Elan and Haley’s narrative goal are to live happily ever after.
Belkar’s narrative goal is to die with the respect of his party.
Durkon’s narrative goal is to have some measure of agency in the final solution that saves the world, whatever that is.
V’s narrative goal is to… honestly, I dont know. Go off and live in Xykon’s astral fortress amd raise dragons or something. It’s slightly interesting that the most powerful character doesn’t seem to actually have a goal.
Only Roy has a narrative goal that involves combat, and his goal is to prove to his dead father (and to himself) that fighters aren’t just dumb meat shields and can effectively contribute to saving the world despite not being as powerful in combat.
Of all of those goals, only one involves combat.
And the one goals that involve combat is exactly opposite the point you seem to be making.
So yes, I agree with your core premise, and the comic has acknowledged your premise for over 1000 strips. It is absolutely true that high level mages are more effective than fighters in dishing out an ass whipping. We all agree. But part of what the comic is about showing that raw combat power isn’t the most important factor in achieving your goals.Last edited by Dion; 2021-09-25 at 12:28 PM.
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2021-09-25, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Durkon is one thing, but I don't see how you can reasonably call V's arc and subsequent ongoing character development "belated". And also, it seems like you're conflating "doesn't do everything" with "lack of development". To which I say... no? Those things aren't the same.
And as others have combat proficiency and character development also aren't the same thing. The story can used improved proficiency as an avenue to show how the characters have developed as characters, but that is not going to be the primary focus because that's not what these characters are about. If that's your primary or sole metric for development I can see why you'd be annoyed, but I'm also glad the writer doesn't share your point of view on the matter.Last edited by Rrmcklin; 2021-09-25 at 12:59 PM.
I'd just like to point out that saying that something unsupported is the case unless someone else can prove that it is not is an utter failure of logic. - Kish
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2021-09-25, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
During the siege of Azure City, V showed how powerful a wizard can be when buffing front line fighters and cancelling other magic.
And regarding martial class versus magic class: the Giant shows how the martial class can win under certain conditions. If not for Xykon, Miko would have won.
This strip has shown that the conditions of the battle matter just as much as the class.
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2021-09-25, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-25, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Yup. Haley and Elan start getting meaningful character development roughly mid-WaXP and Elan doesn't really grow up until BritF. V's arc begins in early DstP, earlier than Belkar's at around the middle of the same book. Only Durkon's is really belated, but it gets a lot of love and focus.
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2021-09-25, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Not sure if this is your head canon, or something else.
In-strip his goal has been, since about strip 606, to fake sincerity.
I need to pretend to have character growth
Looks like you took the fake.
(Whether faking it for long enough will result in "tell a lie often enough and it gets mistaken for the truth" is yet to be revealed)
You seem to have left out the seventh OotSer: Minrah.
Minrah's role is, I think, to act as the catalyst for Belkar's change turning from a lie into the truth ... her goal is to fulfill Thor's plan.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-09-25 at 03:41 PM.
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2021-09-25, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Yeah, V has had moments of being poweful in fights. The fight with the psionic after the fall of Girard's Gate was an example. But so has Roy, and Belkar and Haley. I'm not sure V's resume is more impressive in that regard.
And regarding martial class versus magic class: the Giant shows how the martial class can win under certain conditions. If not for Xykon, Miko would have won.
This strip has shown that the conditions of the battle matter just as much as the class.
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2021-09-25, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Redcloak is also a cleric who apparently doesn't know how to fight with weapons and not magic, which is half the value of being a Cleric as opposed to a straight up caster. Redcloak, in that respect at least, is ludicrously sub-optimized.
The battle at Azure City someone mentioned neatly underscores my point. The other 5 members of the team deal with 2 elementals while V goes off to handle 3 by themselves, then... oops, separated, so the others can do something without V's presence to neuter them, while V is able to use buff spells to wreak havoc on the Goblin Army until more powerful Magic intervenes in the form of RCs summoning magic. People like the poster above who said V hasn't got that great of a proven fighting record in the comic are missing why that is; it's because the author keeps finding reasons to get V off panel so the others can shine. If V was there at the Pyramid against Tarquin for example the fight would have ended in 1 spell, and then how useless would the rest of the team have looked? How uncool would Tarquin have seemed? So V is always shunted off to the side, or given another caster to fight to disguise the fact that yes they are all useless compared to him (Durkon less so obviously, as another legit caster).
I don't really agree Elan got later development than V. Prior to V's arc Elan had a lengthy love arc with Hayley, multiple story arcs about his twin brother, even sub-arcs about his dalliances with a Goblin ninja and a bandit sorcerer were more in depth than anything V received prior to their own arc. Elan just got an additional arc on top of that. By the time of V's arc beginning in comic #623, there had been substantial development for Roy, Hayley, Elan & even Belkar. By comic #661 V's arc was over, and while we saw a teeny bit more development after that V is now behind even Durkon in that respect, which is saying something. As someone pointed out in an above post, we don't even know what V's actual narrative goal in the story is anymore, something we can't say about any of the other protagonists. All we know is that when the team is facing they next key crisis point, V's going to get yanked off the field again by the fiends if not some other plot contrivance.Last edited by TooSoon; 2021-09-25 at 06:35 PM.
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2021-09-25, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Ok, that’s fine.
So which spell should V cast to achieve Belkar’s goal of faking sincerity?
Because I am in a conversation where we are talking about ways that a high level wizard can achieve all the party’s goals with a few spells, and I find myself increasingly curious which spells those are.Last edited by Dion; 2021-09-25 at 07:02 PM.
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2021-09-25, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Well, the goalposts always change. The hypothetical V at 17th level has access to every spell in the book and can cast as many as she likes per day, is always fully buffed, never requires rest, and always knows exactly when to scry so she never gets surprised.
This same mage always knows where traps are set and has an unlimited number of high-powered minions at her beck and call to serve as long as she wishes for no cost.
We don't have to worry about a DM, and WBL only applies to the foe.
In my experience, the DM builds dungeons and campaigns which challenge each character and gives each character a chance to shine. I guess that's a unique experience.
But here's a scenario:
Full attack by a fighter level 17 can deal 2d6+6 damage four times per round. That's better than 12d6 damage per round, not counting magical plusses or other damage. He can do this virtually forever, so long as he has at least 1HP. A wizard can do that 6-8 times using third level slots and another 6-8 times using fourth. (Her higher level slots are reserved for making her an awesome killing machine twice for 17 rounds each.)
Wait, did I just say a fighter can outperform a wizard in dealing damage? Why, yes, I did. Because no matter how awesome a wizard can be, her spells time out and she runs out of spell slots. But a fighter can deal out a fireball per round forever.
The only time a wizard can solo everything is when the DM lets her. A good DM CHALLENGES all PCs, wizards included.
Sort of like our favorite author, who demonstrates that wizards are powerful, but not omnipotent.
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2021-09-25, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Yes, and you're the one changing them.
Do I need to point out that wasn't what anyone said? Or is the vast number of crows fleeing your burning cornfields enough of an indicator about how many strawmen your killing here?
Like Roy, canon V has very little observable spending. Mostly just spell regents.
We've actually seen Roy get MORE Magic gear than V, because at least he got the Belt of Ogre Strength.
If he hits everytime. +2 to roll is not exactly "huge numbers".
AT RANGE being a key point of blaster mages like V's gimmick. Roy has to get in close. Which is why he needed to get a Returning blade.
If he can hit them. Fireball hits a 20 ft. Radius sphere. Roy hits the guy next to him. V could in theory hit hundreds of enemies if you pack them in tight enough. Roy gets Greater Cleave, so I guess he could do the same if he was right in the middle of hundreds of Tiny creatures or something.
They don't have to be omnipotent to be way better than Fighters."Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2021-09-25, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
8d6+24 is 52 damage.
9d6 is 31.5.
+22/17/12/7 means that, if you're attacking AC 24, you hit on a 2/7/12/17, for an actual average of 29.9 DPR, plus 2.99 damage from crits, for a little under 33 DPR. Against one target. In melee range. Assuming you don't need to move more than 5'.
DC 23 means that, if you're attacking a foe with a Reflex save of +12, they save for half on an 11+, for an actual DPR of 23.625. In a 5' burst, so you can hit more than one target. Up to 30' away. And as a standard action, so you can still move freely.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2021-09-25, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-26, 12:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
At level 11, a Wizard (who hasn't idiotically chosen the most powerful school of magic as their banned school) can cast Planar Binding and call a Glabrezu for all their mayhem related needs (which the demon will be only too happy to fulfill, even if it involves helping good guys beat up other demons, because CE is like that).
A Glabrezu's full attack is +20/+20/+18/+18/+18, with an average damage of 45 if all attacks hit (not including Power Attack, which it has), plus improved grab on the two +20 pincer attacks. Oh, and it just happens to have DR, SR, a whole pile of immunities and resistances, always active True Seeing, and a whole pile of SLAs, several of which are at will - it can stand around and Chaos Hammer from 240' away all day long. And yes, without shenanigans Planar Binding does carry a cost, but is that cost greater than splitting loot+XP with an additional party member? If the party member isn't a spellcaster the answer is usually no and therefore the spell serves as a net profit when used as a fighter replacer.
And yes, a Glabrezu is unusually potent for its HD, but not by that much. Really, that's the overall benchmark. Starting as early as level 7, when Lesser Planar Ally comes online, non-casters are constantly being placed on a value scale against whatever the casters could call up at the relevant HD value to replace them. It is just barely possible, with a lot of optimization, to keep pace, but without that huge optimization investment martial characters become explicitly worse than what completely un-optimized full casters can pull out with a single spell. Starting at level 15 - which Durkon is probably supposed to be at this point - he can use Greater Planar Ally to call Planetars - which are not only better fighters than Roy, but better clerics than he himself is (oh, and the planar ally series of spells explicitly exists in Stickworld, since Durkon at one point planned to use them to summon Astral Devas in a gate-defense plan that didn't go off).
This is one of the fundamental problems with high-level 3.5e D&D - without optimization Tier 3 and below classes struggle to keep up with random stuff out of the Monster Manuals that Tier 1 classes can use as everyday minions.
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2021-09-26, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
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2021-09-26, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-26, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
You've said a lot of times that V has less time on screen than the others. But that ignores the fact that Roy was dead for an entire book, and Belkar was either under a mark of justice or near death for setting the mark off for a whole book. Taking those out I doubt they have more appearances than V.
That's putting aside the various other times that mundanes have been nerfed in the comic, like Roy being without his weapon for a long period. V has had just as good a run as anyone else.
Just because wizards can be more powerful than fighters at high level doesn't mean that every wizard is more powerful than every fighter. I don't think it's obvious, based on their performance, than V is more powerful than Roy
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2021-09-26, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Last edited by Dion; 2021-09-26 at 12:39 AM.
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2021-09-26, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
This is written as if it's a no-fail plan. What if the creature beats the Charisma Check? What if it ports to another plane? What if you fail to overcome it's Spell Resistence? (It gets to try all three ways again tomorrow!)
And the monster gleefully obeys your every whim because CE entities love to be ordered around?
A likely scenario, especially if the caster is summoning right at the limit of her ability, is that the demon makes its save and proceeds to use it's awesome melee attacks on its summoner. And even if your caster gets everything her way, what's to stop the demon from contacting a future enemy and going to work for her until it gets the chance to get revenge on your wizard?
This is what I'm saying: you have these no-fail scenarios that are, by RAW, unlikely to work out in a campaign.
Sure, wizards can do great stuff. They are vulnerable, and a smart enemy will exploit those vulnerabilities.
A smart wizard knows this and wants someone who does not want her dead covering her back.
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2021-09-26, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Roy is objectively less powerful then V, yes, but he's also wiser, better able to apply it. One thing OOTS has tried to make clear is that power comes in many forms: It's not about having the most output, it's about using it well. If you build the best tank in existence, and then you immediately drive it off a cliff, you've accomplished nothing but wasting time and resources. V is highly intelligent, yes, but they're not the stragetic type. The whole screw-up is a logical outcome of who V always was: they were cocky, and more obsessed with showing off their newfound unlimited power then ending the fight quickly, because V has always been an arrogant show-off: Why do you think they have such a propensity for monologuing? Dude loves the sound of their own voice. They could have killed Xykon, if they fought in as no-nonsense a fashion as they fought the Black Dragon, but, well, with the Black Dragon, it was PERSONAL: They were in a state of white-hot rage that got them to put their ego aside and fight smart. Xykon? Xykon was just an encore.
Last edited by woweedd; 2021-09-26 at 01:32 AM.
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2021-09-26, 01:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Roy Greenhilt is useless?
Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-09-26 at 01:37 AM.