Roy Greenhilt is useless?

[Mechalich]

This is written as if it's a no-fail plan. What if the creature beats the Charisma Check? What if it ports to another plane? What if you fail to overcome it's Spell Resistence? (It gets to try all three ways again tomorrow!)

And the monster gleefully obeys your every whim because CE entities love to be ordered around?

A likely scenario, especially if the caster is summoning right at the limit of her ability, is that the demon makes its save and proceeds to use it's awesome melee attacks on its summoner. And even if your caster gets everything her way, what's to stop the demon from contacting a future enemy and going to work for her until it gets the chance to get revenge on your wizard?

This is what I'm saying: you have these no-fail scenarios that are, by RAW, unlikely to work out in a campaign.

Sure, wizards can do great stuff. They are vulnerable, and a smart enemy will exploit those vulnerabilities.

A smart wizard knows this and wants someone who does not want her dead covering her back.

{scrubbed} I noted that the Glabrezu was just an example? Or maybe the part where you can use the exact same spell to call up an Astral Deva, a LG monster?

An Astral Deva's not a Glabrezu's melee match but it's full attack is still: +21/+16/+11 melee (1d8+12 plus stun) with a very nice ability/immunity/SLA package on top. And for ranged attack needs how about a Ghaele, a CG ball of flying death that strikes with two ranged touch attacks from 300 ft away every round for an average of 26 damage that ignores all DR (and can cast as a 14th level cleric).

The simple reality is that unless they optimize heavily low-tier classes struggle to keep up with the better grade monsters at their benchmarks, never mind casters. If they don't get sufficient WBL they may not be able to do it at all.

I didn't get the impression that V was fighting the ABD intelligently at all: that one also feels like V wielding ultimate arcane power as a cudgel. He goes into that fight unbuffed too, and spends the whole time smugly toying with his opponent.

V goes into almost every fight unbuffed, or with only Invisibility, which is really rather ridiculous considering their overall level. It's one of the ways the comic deliberately limits V's power, even though V has never used up even close to all of their low-level spell slots that could easily be used on some basic protection.

[Hurkyl]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote} I noted that the Glabrezu was just an example? Or maybe the part where you can use the exact same spell to call up an Astral Deva, a LG monster?

Enslaving angels on a daily basis for the course of a campaign isn't likely to work out well for you either. Or anything, really.

V goes into almost every fight unbuffed, or with only Invisibility, which is really rather ridiculous considering their overall level. It's one of the ways the comic deliberately limits V's power, even though V has never used up even close to all of their low-level spell slots that could easily be used on some basic protection.

I mainly mention the "unbuffed" part because the previous poster was trying to contrast the ABD fight as being smarter than the Xykon fight, and the unbuffed thing one of the things that are often cited as evidence of V fighting stupidly.

[hungrycrow]

I didn't get the impression that V was fighting the ABD intelligently at all: that one also feels like V wielding ultimate arcane power as a cudgel. He goes into that fight unbuffed too, and spends the whole time smugly toying with his opponent.

That was my impression too. I think V wins in the end because the ABD was prepared to fight a mid-level caster, and then also stopped fighting intelligently when her ace in the hole failed. Xykon, on the other hand, has fought enough high level casters to not lose his cool.

[Mechalich]

Enslaving angels on a daily basis for the course of a campaign isn't likely to work out well for you either. Or anything, really.

Casting Planar Binding doesn't require enslaving anyone. You can pay the called beings just like Planar Ally if you want. A Glabrezu or Astral Deva sets you back 12,000 gp every 12-20 days, depending on caster level. At 4 CR 12 encounters a day the caster still comes out way ahead.

[TooSoon]

You've said a lot of times that V has less time on screen than the others. But that ignores the fact that Roy was dead for an entire book, and Belkar was either under a mark of justice or near death for setting the mark off for a whole book. Taking those out I doubt they have more appearances than V.

That's putting aside the various other times that mundanes have been nerfed in the comic, like Roy being without his weapon for a long period. V has had just as good a run as anyone else.

Just because wizards can be more powerful than fighters at high level doesn't mean that every wizard is more powerful than every fighter. I don't think it's obvious, based on their performance, than V is more powerful than Roy

Not really. V, despite being handcuffed and railroaded by the author and plot, still demonstrates what we all should already know; he is the most powerful party member, because he is a caster. V beat the teenage black dragon; even today Roy would have no hope of beating it probably. V would have had the ABD down if not for the anti-magic field. Roy could never hope to defeat it. V took out 3 titanium elementals. Roy couldn't beat 1. V defeated Z and stalemated a high level Psion. Roy would have been quickly killed by both. Roy's one prayer is to start the fight at point blank range against a totally undefended V, who isn't using any kind of precog magic, and even then V just moves out of range with fly and puts Roy into a forcecage.

The comic's claim, through the voice of Xykon, that "everything evens out, strange by true" is not correct at all. There are better classes and worse classes. V is in the top type of class and is objectively more powerful than the rest of his team, especially with some of their garbage builds.

[Mechalich]

The comic's claim, through the voice of Xykon, that "everything evens out, strange by true" is not correct at all. There are better classes and worse classes. V is in the top type of class and is objectively more powerful than the rest of his team, especially with some of their garbage builds.

Right. Essentially all characters in OOTS, including the villains and ally NPCs are:
1. Almost completely unoptimized or actually negatively optimized
2. Woefully under-geared for their level.
3. Not making full use of the class features they should possess because the author is justifiably uninterested in detailing them (ex. Roy should have 8 or 9 Fighter Bonus feats, but I doubt we could reliably assign him even 5)
4. Engaging in 1-2 combats per day at most.

All of these things exaggerate the difference in power between tiers, so that the situation is actually worse than it would be if played completely straight. Unfortunately, level 15+ 3.5e D&D is so spectacularly broken that it can't actually be played straight, so it's kind of a wash. The author is fully aware of that and used to have complaints/edits about several broken aspects of the system, such as Polymorph, on the site.

[Hurkyl]

Casting Planar Binding doesn't require enslaving anyone. You can pay the called beings just like Planar Ally if you want. A Glabrezu or Astral Deva sets you back 12,000 gp every 12-20 days, depending on caster level. At 4 CR 12 encounters a day the caster still comes out way ahead.

I don't think it's really "just like". From the spell descriptions, there are two major differences:

• You are bribing it into compelled service rather than bargaining for voluntary service
• The other party is a random outsider you kidnapped rather than a outsider sharing your general philosophy responding to a general plea

I suppose a DM could rule that a binder can opt make the mechanics of the bargain work just like ally does, but you still have the major difference of how they came to be before you. It would be rather unreasonable to expect the target would have a similar disposition as one called through planar ally.

Even if we were talking Planar Ally, it's not obvious to me that serving as the party's meatshield for an extended period of time really counts as the sort of routine task that would garner the standard 1k/day rates. (in particular, it's a calling, not a summoning, so the victim is risking a true death)

[Liquor Box]

Not really. V, despite being handcuffed and railroaded by the author and plot

Just like every member of the party, but probably Roy more than anyone else.

still demonstrates what we all should already know; he is the most powerful party member, because he is a caster. V beat the teenage black dragon; even today Roy would have no hope of beating it probably. V would have had the ABD down if not for the anti-magic field. Roy could never hope to defeat it. V took out 3 titanium elementals. Roy couldn't beat 1. V defeated Z and stalemated a high level Psion. Roy would have been quickly killed by both.

So you say V suceeded:

• beat the teenage black dragon
• beat three elementals
• beat his evil opposite
• beat the psion (in my opinion, his best victory).
• beat the hydra with his sexual assault spell in the first comic (you forgot this one)
• Nale in cliffport. (you forgot this one too)
• contributed usefully against the frost giants

V's successes in combat must be balanced against his failures:

• got incapacitated by a hag (who Belkar defeated)
• was ineffective against Miko
• was on the way to losing to an owlbear (who Roy defeated)
• was losing against one of the fake Xykon before it was crushed by the zombie dragon's head (Belkar defeated one of the other fake Xykons by himself),
• lost to the adult black dragon (although later beat it with the splice)
• lost to Xykon (despite the splice)
• lost to the sorcerous bandit leader
• ineffective in the vampire fight
• incapacitated by Serini

Compare that to Roy's successes:

• Was the last member of the party standing in the fight against the Vampires.
• Was on top in the fight against the frost giants.
• Was getting the better of Vampire Durkon one on one
• Defeated Thog one on one
• Defeated Belkar one on one
• Captured the Linear Guild wizard
• defeated Xykon in round 1
• Defeated Sabine
• Killed an Owlbear
• Defeated Miko in round 2
• Defeated Half Ogre

And Roy's failures:

• Lost round 2 to Xykon
• losing to Tarquin's party
• incapacitated against Serini
• lost round 1 to miko
• lost to the sorcerous bandit leader

Let me know if I forgot any

In my opinion V's list of successes and failures is no more impressive than Roy's. Your mileage may vary I guess.

Roy's one prayer is to start the fight at point blank range against a totally undefended V, who isn't using any kind of precog magic, and even then V just moves out of range with fly and puts Roy into a forcecage.

Well, we aren't talking about a 1v1 (are we?) , so that's not super relevant.

But a forcecage doesn't actually defeat Roy, it means neither Roy nor V can harm the other (for in comic evidence of a forcecagenot being a loss, see where V forcecaged his own party), and they can resume fighting when the forcecage expires. V might be able to usefully cast fly if he's outside, but Roy gets an attack of opportunity while it's being cast, and fly might not get V out of Roy's range as Roy can use his sword for a ranged attack.

[TooSoon]

Just like every member of the party, but probably Roy more than anyone else.



So you say V suceeded:

• beat the teenage black dragon
• beat three elementals
• beat his evil opposite
• beat the psion (in my opinion, his best victory).
• beat the hydra with his sexual assault spell in the first comic (you forgot this one)
• Nale in cliffport. (you forgot this one too)
• contributed usefully against the frost giants

V's successes in combat must be balanced against his failures:

• got incapacitated by a hag (who Belkar defeated)
• was ineffective against Miko
• was on the way to losing to an owlbear (who Roy defeated)
• was losing against one of the fake Xykon before it was crushed by the zombie dragon's head (Belkar defeated one of the other fake Xykons by himself),
• lost to the adult black dragon (although later beat it with the splice)
• lost to Xykon (despite the splice)
• lost to the sorcerous bandit leader
• ineffective in the vampire fight
• incapacitated by Serini

Compare that to Roy's successes:

• Was the last member of the party standing in the fight against the Vampires.
• Was on top in the fight against the frost giants.
• Was getting the better of Vampire Durkon one on one
• Defeated Thog one on one
• Defeated Belkar one on one
• Captured the Linear Guild wizard
• defeated Xykon in round 1
• Defeated Sabine
• Killed an Owlbear
• Defeated Miko in round 2
• Defeated Half Ogre

And Roy's failures:

• Lost round 2 to Xykon
• losing to Tarquin's party
• incapacitated against Serini
• lost round 1 to miko
• lost to the sorcerous bandit leader

Let me know if I forgot any

In my opinion V's list of successes and failures is no more impressive than Roy's. Your mileage may vary I guess.



Well, we aren't talking about a 1v1 (are we?) , so that's not super relevant.

But a forcecage doesn't actually defeat Roy, it means neither Roy nor V can harm the other (for in comic evidence of a forcecagenot being a loss, see where V forcecaged his own party), and they can resume fighting when the forcecage expires. V might be able to usefully cast fly if he's outside, but Roy gets an attack of opportunity while it's being cast, and fly might not get V out of Roy's range as Roy can use his sword for a ranged attack.

You listed a bunch of stuff that mostly falls into the following categories:
a) most of the party would have lost to it (you think the others would have even a chance against an Ancient Black Dragon?)
b) it happened when they were all much lower level (the higher the levels go, the more broken Wizard/casters become), or
c) It was the result of another caster (which does nothing to negate the idea that casters are the best; V losing to Xykon, another caster, does not stand as an example of how casters aren't so great).

Some of that stuff was also just the author railroading the plot for the story. At any rate, we're now at a point where V is just much stronger than the rest of the team. A forcecage actually does defeat Roy, because V can get whatever prep he needs to destroy Roy. In fact, V doesn't need to even do that. The cage lasts for a day and a half at V's current level. V can just come back to cast another forcecage every day until Roy starves to death.

[Liquor Box]

You listed a bunch of stuff that mostly falls into the following categories:
a) most of the party would have lost to it (you think the others would have even a chance against an Ancient Black Dragon?)

No. Most of V's failures which I listed, one of the other party members actually did beat it in the end.

On the other hand, most of Roy's failures V would have (or did) lose as well.

b) it happened when they were all much lower level (the higher the levels go, the more broken Wizard/casters become), or

No. V's listed failures are pretty evenly spread throughout the different book, and include recent fights, like those against Serini and the vampires.

c) It was the result of another caster (which does nothing to negate the idea that casters are the best; V losing to Xykon, another caster, does not stand as an example of how casters aren't so great).

We are not arguing about the idea that casters are the best. We are arguing about whether V is more or less useful than Roy. V losing to Xykon (for example) does count toward that, because Roy himself beat Xykon (albeit only 1/2, but still better than V who lost despite being powered up).

Some of that stuff was also just the author railroading the plot for the story.

Yes, as we mentioned before, all the characters are subject to railroading.

[Dion]

Let’s see if I understand the argument being made.

1) 3.5e D&D beyond 15th level is virtually unplayable unless the DM does extra work to control the game, and the players agree to forgo world breaking optimizations.

2) therefore Rich should introduce several new high level mages with world breaking optimizations

3) the entire comic should be wrapped up in a few rounds of rocket tag where these new high level mages buff up and kill Xykon.

Do I have the argument more or less right?

[JNAProductions]

Let’s see if I understand the argument being made.

1) 3.5e D&D beyond 15th level is virtually unplayable unless the DM does extra work to control the game, and the players agree to forgo world breaking optimizations.

2) therefore Rich should introduce several new high level mages with world breaking optimizations

3) the entire comic should be wrapped up in a few rounds of rocket tag where these new high level mages buff up and kill Xykon.

Do I have the argument more or less right?

I think there are two concurrent threads, right now.

1) Roy is useless-and most people disagree with that, given what we've actually seen.

2) 3.5 is a caster's game, especially at higher levels.

There's some interplay between the two, but they're not one and the same.

[brian 333]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote} I noted that the Glabrezu was just an example? Or maybe the part where you can use the exact same spell to call up an Astral Deva, a LG monster?

An Astral Deva's not a Glabrezu's melee match but it's full attack is still: +21/+16/+11 melee (1d8+12 plus stun) with a very nice ability/immunity/SLA package on top. And for ranged attack needs how about a Ghaele, a CG ball of flying death that strikes with two ranged touch attacks from 300 ft away every round for an average of 26 damage that ignores all DR (and can cast as a 14th level cleric).

The simple reality is that unless they optimize heavily low-tier classes struggle to keep up with the better grade monsters at their benchmarks, never mind casters. If they don't get sufficient WBL they may not be able to do it at all.



V goes into almost every fight unbuffed, or with only Invisibility, which is really rather ridiculous considering their overall level. It's one of the ways the comic deliberately limits V's power, even though V has never used up even close to all of their low-level spell slots that could easily be used on some basic protection.

Notice how the goalposts shifted again? No matter what argument I bring to the table, it is countered by a spell list that has no limit and a caster who never fails a save.

I wish you could play in my sandbox a while. You would quickly learn you can't just blast your way through everything because my dungeons would challenge your wizard. You would learn to conserve your magic for when it's needed, and to use it strategically when you did use it. You would rely upon your non-caster companions to get you where you need to be because wasting a spell slot has consequences.

The problem is not that wizards are ultra-powerful. They are supposed to be. The problem is that dungeon designers don't punish frivolous wastes of spells. If you use up a quarter of your spell slots getting in the door, you will never see the treasure in my dungeon.

But, hey, if you believe that wizards are broken and you won't bother playtesting to see what other classes can do, then that's your thing. You are free to modify the game to suit you or play some other perfect game that properly scales magic.

[The MunchKING]

Notice how the goalposts shifted again? No matter what argument I bring to the table, it is countered by a spell list that has no limit and a caster who never fails a save.

What saves were you asking for? Fighters don't even ask you to make saves in general.

because wasting a spell slot has consequences.

Because you're octupling all the recovery times, yes.

[JNAProductions]

I also notice you've not responded, Brian, to my hypothetical adventures.

I know you asked for there to be entire maps and a detailed world and all that, but surely you can (with the details I provided) make some broad stroke suggestions for how to handle them.

[brian 333]

I also notice you've not responded, Brian, to my hypothetical adventures.

I know you asked for there to be entire maps and a detailed world and all that, but surely you can (with the details I provided) make some broad stroke suggestions for how to handle them.

Your hypotheticals were so vague that I did respond by saying they were too vague to respond to.

And again, there is no argument I could make in general that you could not then say, "Aha! That won't work because in this specific case..."

I'm not trying to resolve every potential hypothetical. I'm telling you that if you take your perfect solo melee-mage team then build a magebuster team of non-primary-casters, you can come up with ways to beat the ultimate powers. Even if it means waiting out the buff dtrations.

You can test this for yourself if you honestly want to learn something.

[JNAProductions]

Your hypotheticals were so vague that I did respond by saying they were too vague to respond to.

And again, there is no argument I could make in general that you could not then say, "Aha! That won't work because in this specific case..."

I'm not trying to resolve every potential hypothetical. I'm telling you that if you take your perfect solo melee-mage team then build a magebuster team of non-primary-casters, you can come up with ways to beat the ultimate powers. Even if it means waiting out the buff dtrations.

You can test this for yourself if you honestly want to learn something.

I'm not saying mages work best as Gishes. That's generally a step DOWN in power.

Can you show us the character sheets that you've been using?

[brian 333]

What saves were you asking for? Fighters don't even ask you to make saves in general.



Because you're octupling all the recovery times, yes.

The saves I was talking about are the saves any creature gets to avoid the effects of Planar Binding. And when the first one makes its save you are going to be rolling up a new level 1 wizard because the summoned creature has toilets to unclog and pig-analogy stys that need mucking back on its home plane, and guess who gets to do it?

At least you finally acknowledge that mages do need rest and study. Although my time estimate was not even double what RAW requires.

Next we'll have you admitting spell slots are limited, and who knows? Maybe you'll secretly confess to yourself that a wizard level 17 won't have every level 9 spell in her book.

Baby steps, but it's progress!

[Dion]

2) 3.5 is a caster's game, especially at higher levels.

I’d argue that it’s a broken game at higher levels.

I think we broadly agree that if this story wasn't about the characters the story is about, but instead was about an optimized group of mages chasing an optimized lich, then everyone admits that this would be a different story.

[TooSoon]

Your hypotheticals were so vague that I did respond by saying they were too vague to respond to.

And again, there is no argument I could make in general that you could not then say, "Aha! That won't work because in this specific case..."

I'm not trying to resolve every potential hypothetical. I'm telling you that if you take your perfect solo melee-mage team then build a magebuster team of non-primary-casters, you can come up with ways to beat the ultimate powers. Even if it means waiting out the buff dtrations.

You can test this for yourself if you honestly want to learn something.

People on here provided ample in depth explanations for you. I remember when you said the Rogue's would "go hide" and myself and multiple other posters explained how futile that strategy would be, and that you in fact were wrong about the rules (e.g. your claim magic couldn't locate your hiding Rogue, when it very obviously could). No further reply seems necessary after that.

[Dion]

(e.g. your claim magic couldn't locate your hiding Rogue, when it very obviously could).

Remind us again which spells V (the wizard) cast to find Haley (the rogue) in the comic?

Or, since I admit I can’t follow this thread, can you summarize your point for those of us who missed it?

[RatElemental]

Remind us again which spells V (the wizard) cast to find Haley (the rogue) in the comic?

Or, since I admit I can’t follow this thread, can you summarize your point for those of us who missed it?

Haley wasn't hiding from V, she was under the effects of Cloister, an epic level abjuration spell that specifically blocks divination magic from finding you.

[Liquor Box]

Remind us again which spells V (the wizard) cast to find Haley (the rogue) in the comic?

Or, since I admit I can’t follow this thread, can you summarize your point for those of us who missed it?

I think the logic is the same as every time in this thread that it has become apparent that V has shortcomings relative to the rest of the party - that a theoretical optimal wizard, who happened to have the right spell memorised, would be able to do it.

[RatElemental]

I think the logic is the same as every time in this thread that it has become apparent that V has shortcomings relative to the rest of the party - that a theoretical optimal wizard, who happened to have the right spell memorised, would be able to do it.

Well, yeah, an epic level wizard casting an epic divination spell probably could overcome the epic abjuration spell that was blocking divination magic by passing a caster level check. This isn't really a good example of a rogue hiding from a wizard, it's a rogue being hidden from a wizard by a sorcerer.

[Dion]

Haley wasn't hiding from V, she was under the effects of Cloister, an epic level abjuration spell that specifically blocks divination magic from finding you.

You’re right! The rogue wasn’t even hiding! And yet… the wizard still couldn’t find her.

Look, I’m mostly just poking fun at what seems to be a very silly thread.

It’s perfectly reasonable claim that wizards have a really big toolkit that allows them to handle a wide variety of situations.

It’s also reasonable to claim that wizards can lay down a huge amount of combat damage in a short amount t of time.

And, taken together the two statements above make the game quite unbalanced, especially at higher levels.

But I am amused at the ridiculous claim that wizards have the ability to replace all other characters in all situations.

[RatElemental]

But I am amused at the ridiculous claim that wizards have the ability to replace all other characters in all situations.

I believe the claim was that any given non wizard could be replaced by a wizard built to do their job, and the wizard will be able to do more things besides, and some jobs can be replaced by the wizard casting a single spell that won't require them to specialize much. So a party full of wizards (and maybe a cleric) would function more effectively than a mixed party.

[Mechalich]

I’d argue that it’s a broken game at higher levels.

It's spectacularly broken at higher levels, honestly, and this is well known. In fact it's known that WotC never even tried to playtest high-level play and many of the creatures/options/abilities introduced for high level play or late in the system run were shovelware designed to fill book copy space rather than actually improve the game or correct any known difficulties.

I think there are two concurrent threads, right now.

1) Roy is useless-and most people disagree with that, given what we've actually seen.

2) 3.5 is a caster's game, especially at higher levels.

There's some interplay between the two, but they're not one and the same.

The general issue is that it is necessary to understand why and how high-level 3.5e D&D is broken in order to address how it affects the contributions of a character like Roy to the story and the impacts of those variances in ability to influence the narrative on the strip as a whole. In particular in spotting the many ways the author has utilized literary devices and mechanical tweaking in efforts to preserve story function with varying levels of success.

A number of posters have tried to advance the counter that high-level 3.5e D&D is not broken and lower tier classes can match the contributions of higher-tier classes. This is incorrect, and this specific online forum is a strange place to advance that argument since it is one of the single largest repositories of evidence on the internet as to why that is so, but it has successfully drawn the argument off (and I'll admit to having gotten drawn in myself). It's also a doubly strange thing to argue in the framework of OOTS a comic that spends a very substantial amount of it's run making jokes at the expense of 3.5's overall brokenness, including remarking specifically on tier disparity (even using the term 'tier' directly) at multiple points.

And when the comic is trying to be funny the overall broken-ness of high-level 3.5 is generally to its benefit, since it offers ready fodder for all kinds of jokes. Heck, the comic has even made incredibly meta-jokes about how the author has found it necessary to distort the mechanics of the system to handle the story, such as having Minrah mock Hilgya for her failure to resist domination compared to other characters, a major statistical anomaly according to the mechanics used to remove her character - more powerful than all the non-casters in the main party put together - from taking over the fight.

The problem comes when the comic needs to be serious and advance major in-narrative goals to prevent the bad guys from winning and (more recently) the world being destroyed. This is a major difficulty for light-hearted comedic action romps generally. Watch a bunch of superhero films and you'll see how they regularly have problems producing a tense and emotionally impactful climax given the quippy-jokey nature of their casts (and also, notably, the vast power imbalances between certain characters, looking at you Hawkeye).

This problem has cropped up more and more of late because the climax is approaching, the stakes are considerably higher, and the characters are higher level. For example, deus ex machina solutions were required to handle both high-level vampire clerics.

It's an issue that hits Roy particularly hard because he's at the center of the narrative and the leader. He needs to make the party succeed in a way Belkar, Elan, and Haley do not. This also means that in fights not connected to overall narrative goals, like the current one, the comic can be thoroughly zany and ignore Roy entirely in a way that won't be possible during the ultimate climax.

I think the logic is the same as every time in this thread that it has become apparent that V has shortcomings relative to the rest of the party - that a theoretical optimal wizard, who happened to have the right spell memorised, would be able to do it.

Not a theoretically optimized wizard, not even a highly optimized wizard. Just a wizard played to a more reasonable representation of their potential. V, in the second half of the comic, tends to cast the same spells over and over (Forcecage, Prismatic Spray, and Disintegrate) and aside from Fly and Invisibility leaves the 4th level spells and below almost completely untouched. The comic, as it often does made the relevant joke about this already. If V used some of those unused slots for basic defenses - even commonplace ones like Stoneskin - they would be much better at staying in fights and their contribution level would skyrocket.

For an audience member who understands the problems of high level 3.5 D&D - which is at least partly expected since this is a high-level 3.5e parody, the characters have been above level ten for almost the entire comic - then the many ways in which the author has to distort, ignore, and massage the rules in order to allow the story to function are very apparent. Does this damage the comic, yes, it does. It impacts suspension of disbelief, undercuts dramatic tension, and renders certain characters less interesting because it's clear they are being deliberately held back. In many ways its part and parcel of simply being a parody, your parody lives or dies by the traits of the thing its parodying.

However, Rich Burlew's story goals have clearly evolved beyond 'D&D parody' and he has made it quite clear that the limitations of the system being parodied hinder the overall comic and if given the choice would have gone down a different road.

[brian 333]

People on here provided ample in depth explanations for you. I remember when you said the Rogue's would "go hide" and myself and multiple other posters explained how futile that strategy would be, and that you in fact were wrong about the rules (e.g. your claim magic couldn't locate your hiding Rogue, when it very obviously could). No further reply seems necessary after that.

So, you are saying that you're right, I'm wrong, and you won't bother with the challenge I proposed because your math says you are right.

Fair enough. Aristotle said that if two objects of different weights fell, the heavier one hits the ground first. Two thousand years later Gallileo dropped two balls of the same size but different weight off the Tower of Piza, and proved Aristotle wrong.

There is a vast difference between theory and practice. Try it and see.

[Dion]

So a party full of wizards (and maybe a cleric) would function more effectively than a mixed party.

But we’ve seen just in the last 10 comics ways that claim fails.

A wizard can’t erase tracks like Belkar the ranger.

A wizard can’t find and disarm traps like Haley the rogue.

A wizard can’t talk to Thor like Durkon the cleric.

A wizard can’t make a beholder blink like Elan the bard.

A wizard can’t cling to walls like Haley the rogue (again).

About the only thing we’ve seen a wizard do about as well as Roy the fighter is pass out from poison.

[brian 333]

People on here provided ample in depth explanations for you. I remember when you said the Rogue's would "go hide" and myself and multiple other posters explained how futile that strategy would be, and that you in fact were wrong about the rules (e.g. your claim magic couldn't locate your hiding Rogue, when it very obviously could). No further reply seems necessary after that.

So, you are saying that you're right, I'm wrong, and you won't bother with the challenge I proposed because your math says you are right.

Fair enough. Aristotle said that if two objects of different weights fell, the heavier one hits the ground first. Two thousand years later Gallileo dropped two balls of the same size but different weight off the Tower of Piza, and proved Aristotle wrong.

There is a vast difference between theory and practice. Try it and see.