Roy Greenhilt is useless?

[RatElemental]

Roy never was a good fighter, he wasn't any good at fights. Hell, he was even bullied in Fighter College and didn't fight back. His main strength is his brain capabilities and he won most of his fights thanks to that. That's one of few things Eugene was right about: Roy would fare better as a magic user.

Roy'd make a good factotum. +Int mod to attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, AC and strength skill checks (on top of usual bonuses). Hell, he could dip the class for 1-3 levels for those at no cost to BAB or hitpoints, he'd just lose a bonus feat or two. Would also make for a good Warblade I imagine.

[Liquor Box]

(I'm more worried about Belkar, personally. He's a melee powerhouse and he can basically just steamroll ludicrous amounts of opponents without breaking a sweat, but boss fights are not his forte (he doesn't tend to fare well against major named antagonists, the only two exceptions I can think of right now are his defeating Miko in WaXP and his effortlessly handling both Bozzok and Crystal, and then wiping the floor with the latter in DStP), and this book promises to be heavy on boss fights while I can't quite see where an army of mooks he could plow through could appear 'round the pole.)

Belkar does ok. As you say, he got the better of Miko (who had previously defeated the whole party, so no mean feat), and dominated Bozzok and Crystal. Beyond that, he has defeated several of his Linear Guild opposites (yukyuk, etc), he soloed Goliath the vampire giant, he (through his dinosaur animal companion) played a significant role in the fight against Tarquin's party.

He's lost a few too - most notably against Roy and against Malack, but I think he does ok against named characters even if they're not his forte.

His combat effectiveness depends on whether the scenario allows him to break out the dinosaur animal companion, but even without him he holds his own. I rate him as more of a factor in most combats than Hayley or Elan.

[Mechalich]

It's worth noting that Roy is both the lowest level character in the party (due both to dying and also to being dead while other party members continued to gain XP), the lowest tier character in the party (Belkar's Ranger/Barbardian combo narrowly edges straight fighter), and the lowest optimized character in the party (he has freaking cross-class Knowledge skill ranks). It's hardly surprising that he has some significant efficacy issues even in the rather loosely adapted version of 3.5 D&D OOTS is dealing with.

This is, at least partly, the joke. The charismatic and noble warrior leader who is also shrewd and plans effectively for his team is a classic fantasy archetype played by many a fantasy protagonist (including in D&D, Tanis Half-Elven famously saved the world leading a party of misfits as a fighter), but 3.5 D&D made such a character into a terrible pile of garbage because in order to the fighter to remain relevant at the one thing they are good at, combat, they have to relentlessly pour essentially every class resource they possess into that space.

Now, as the story has progressed and grown more serious and it actually requires the characters to succeed or the world is doomed, Roy's extremely terrible build has become a genuinely liability to the story. This is hardly unique, V's rather dubious set of prohibited schools and spell selection massively hampers their overall power, and Elan's miserable Int and Wis continually constrain his ability to properly utilize his bard chassis (and the weird custom PrC he's using apparently makes him significantly weaker by cutting off his spellcasting progression since if he were a straight bard he'd have 5th level spells by now). However, even a massively unoptimized wizard is still very powerful and the comic has spent essentially it's entire runtime teaching the audience to expect nothing of Elan, so the issue really does hit Roy the hardest.

[RMS Oceanic]

Roy'd make a good factotum. +Int mod to attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, AC and strength skill checks (on top of usual bonuses). Hell, he could dip the class for 1-3 levels for those at no cost to BAB or hitpoints, he'd just lose a bonus feat or two. Would also make for a good Warblade I imagine.

I always had headcanon that in the timeline where Eric grew up and became a bard, Roy would have been a Duskblade.

[Peelee]

It's worth noting that Roy is.... the lowest optimized character in the party (he has freaking cross-class Knowledge skill ranks)

Is a couple of points in a cross class skill really an indicator here?would his copious feats that all flow towards his modus operandi really be invalidated because he invested some skill points in Knowledge?

[Vinyadan]

Roy'd make a good factotum. +Int mod to attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, AC and strength skill checks (on top of usual bonuses). Hell, he could dip the class for 1-3 levels for those at no cost to BAB or hitpoints, he'd just lose a bonus feat or two. Would also make for a good Warblade I imagine.

Did Rich design the factotum class? It's in Dungeonscape, and he's one of the authors.

[Precure]

I have no idea on what do you base assumpions that:
1. Redcloak knew about Resistance base before V attacked (worrying about Resistance was assignment of Tsukiko, after all).
2. Redcloak considers Goobotopia to be stable (much less that he considered it to be stable before they lost phylactery and before Cliffport recognized their state)

No, these two things happened after V's attack and before they found the phylactery. Redcloak was only stalling Xykon "little bit longer" so they can consolidate goblin control ("breaking the resistance") and establish trade relations with mercantile nations ("Gobbotopia's recognition"), both of these aims accomplished by the time the phylactery is found. So, by the time the phylactery is found Redcloak was already ready to leave for the plan.

[Squire Doodad]

It's worth noting that Roy is both the lowest level character in the party (due both to dying and also to being dead while other party members continued to gain XP), the lowest tier character in the party (Belkar's Ranger/Barbardian combo narrowly edges straight fighter), and the lowest optimized character in the party (he has freaking cross-class Knowledge skill ranks). It's hardly surprising that he has some significant efficacy issues even in the rather loosely adapted version of 3.5 D&D OOTS is dealing with.

I believe, disregarding Minrah, Durkon is the lowest and a level below Roy? But that's besides the point.
Also, Roy having a handful of points in Knowledge: Architecture makes plenty of sense from an irl standpoint. Why? Because he's a human being. He's allowed to know things and branch out his skillset. He's got a high Int stat for a fighter in particular, it's not a problem if he dropped a point or three into knowledge with his spares.
It doesn't take away from the fact that he's the party's main tactician and an epic green-sword-o-fire wielding badass when he shines, and I think this has been the first major fight he's been completely out during since he was brought back.

No, these two things happened after V's attack and before they found the phylactery. Redcloak was only stalling Xykon "little bit longer" so they can consolidate goblin control ("breaking the resistance") and establish trade relations with mercantile nations ("Gobbotopia's recognition"), both of these aims accomplished by the time the phylactery is found. So, by the time the phylactery is found Redcloak was already ready to leave for the plan.

This is correct; I'm sure RC would have loved to stay around and tie up some loose ends, but by the time he had to go, he had done everything he needed to.

[hungrycrow]

Is a couple of points in a cross class skill really an indicator here?would his copious feats that all flow towards his modus operandi really be invalidated because he invested some skill points in Knowledge?

I'd actually say Roy is one of the more optimized members of the Order. Not only do all his feats help him with his many strategy of hitting things with a big sword, but his spellsplinter maneuver is a very good counter to their main threat and his new legacy weapon abilities cover some of his weaknesses as a fighter. He's really only beaten out by Durkon and V, who have only had to keep levelling as full casters.

[Peelee]

I'd actually say Roy is one of the more optimized members of the Order. Not only do all his feats help him with his many strategy of hitting things with a big sword, but his spellsplinter maneuver is a very good counter to their main threat and his new legacy weapon abilities cover some of his weaknesses as a fighter. He's really only beaten out by Durkon and V, who have only had to keep levelling as full casters.

I agree for the same reasons.

[Mike Havran]

No, these two things happened after V's attack and before they found the phylactery. Redcloak was only stalling Xykon "little bit longer" so they can consolidate goblin control ("breaking the resistance") and establish trade relations with mercantile nations ("Gobbotopia's recognition"), both of these aims accomplished by the time the phylactery is found. So, by the time the phylactery is found Redcloak was already ready to leave for the plan.

He "was ready to leave" because he had no other choice, and his sudden efficiency stems from the threat that he would be maimed again if it took him more than six months to find the phylacery. If V had not attacked (or more precisely, made Xykon mad), who knows how long would it take Xykon to get bored with tormenting O-Chul or Redcloak to establish trade with Cliffport (it is implied their stance was influenced by Elves siding against Gobbotopia). It could be years for all we know, because neither Xykon nor Redcloak had strong reason to hurry up.

[Precure]

Redcloak is lying to Xykon. Xykon believes that Redcloak would prefer to be Gobbotopia's leader instead of taking control of the gate for Xykon's sake because he don't know the true nature of the plan. Why would Redcloak want to stay in there for years when the plan, thing he sacrificed everything for, waiting for him? That makes no sense.

[woweedd]

Nah. Roy has been IMMENSLY useful to the party. Saving the rest of the order from execution using nothing but a broken sword and a bag of animals, he orchestrated that whole Linear Guild ambush that is arguably the Order's biggest unqualified success, quite effectively managed to make a plan to get through Tarquin's army sans casualties, and, while he may have failed in the end against the High Priest of Hel, he was effectively fighting alone, against an army of vampires, plus his own mind-controlled party (meaning he has to stick to non-lethal damage for half the fight) and, yet, still managed to get darn close to taking HPOH down. Objectively speaking, Roy probably has the best track record of the entire Order, and, if DSTP is any indication, take him out, you effectively cut out the brain of the entire party. Haley had no idea how to control Belkar, V went nucking futs, Durkon was useless, Elan followed a sidequest into nothingness, ETC.

[KorvinStarmast]

Roy Greenhilt is useless?

Simply wrong
Without a leader, there is no Order and there is nobody opposing Team Evil.

You aren't even close.
Also, as is so often the case, what Fish said.

[OracleofWuffing]

Star Trek has Worf, a character from a warrior race that is known for its brute strength. So, whenever the script wanted to introduce a powerful threat to the crew? They'd have the threat pick up Worf and toss him across the stage like a ragdoll. Whether that made for a better or worse character over the many times it happened is something still discussed on the internet elsewhere, but the bottom line is that if you want to introduce something as a threat, you have it be a threat. Taking out the guy with probably the best armor and HP is an efficient way of demonstrating that you can take out anyone else if given half the chance. These situations may tell us that a character is weak, but they may also tell us that another character is powerful, neither situation is necessarily wrong. There's a bonus piece of entertainment if it turns into an underdog victory for Roy, too.

Or, maybe someone needs some character development without Roy around.

[SlashDash]

I noticed that people forgot Roy single handedly took out the bandits in the woods who captured the entire party - while being forced to hold a non magical stick.




This thread is a bit silly. Roy is the leader who holds everyone together, Belkar explained that perfectly well in the pyramid.

As for Roy losing some fights, what did you expect? Him to just waltz in and kill everything on sight?

This is the same as V explaining how they took out Z, not everyone can be optimized against every single situation. Roy and Durkon are the only ones who had a shot against a vampire's gaze. Durkon even tells Mr. Scruffy is there a shot he can ONLY bring Roy, because everyone else would have no chance. Exactly what happened when they faced Durkon later on. While it makes perfect sense that a Dwarven Cleric has high mental resistances, the odds of a fighter doing that shows you that Roy just went a different path to being op.

And him being able to cancel out spellcasters makes him an incredible dangerous fighter.
It's almost like Roy actually maximized his character to be perfectly good against fighting undead spellcasters.

I wonder why is that?

[Robots]

Just because a character doesn't win all the time doesn't mean they're not an important team asset.

[Mike Havran]

Redcloak is lying to Xykon. Xykon believes that Redcloak would prefer to be Gobbotopia's leader instead of taking control of the gate for Xykon's sake because he don't know the true nature of the plan. Why would Redcloak want to stay in there for years when the plan, thing he sacrificed everything for, waiting for him? That makes no sense.

But that is exactly what he had been doing, right until V and her assault upset the status quo. If Redcloak had been so eager to get to the plan ASAP, he would have left AC to Jirix after a few weeks. He stayed there for months instead and I see no reason why he would not stay for another year or so (Possibly to oversee first one or two harvests?). You seem to argue he was about to come to Xykon and nudge him back on the quest just around that time V attacked. While I do not think it is impossible, I find it highly unlikely.

[Hurkyl]

Redcloak is lying to Xykon. Xykon believes that Redcloak would prefer to be Gobbotopia's leader instead of taking control of the gate for Xykon's sake because he don't know the true nature of the plan. Why would Redcloak want to stay in there for years when the plan, thing he sacrificed everything for, waiting for him? That makes no sense.

He experienced a genuine crisis of conscience during the assault on Azure City, which I fully believe drove him to feel some imperative to establish the newly created nation before moving on.


And then it becomes a holding pattern: Redcloak working to do what he can before Xykon's patience running out, and Xykon working on preparations and his own amusement while granting Redcloak leave to do his thing.

There will always be more involved in establishing a nation, so the only way it was likely to end is either if Xykon's patience runs out or an outside force knocks them out of their status quo.

[brian 333]

I thought the fake phylactery was why RC stayed in Gobbotopia, using the securing of the city as cover for what he was really doing.

[Xihirli]

Hmm. I never considered that. It's true that Redcloak could have switched the phylactery with a fake at any time, and wouldn't have needed to wait for the original to be stolen to make that plan.
However, it's heavily suggested that Redcloak's reason for making the fake was so that he still had access to the phylactery, something he never needed to make sure of before.

Spoiler: Exchange

Show

You didn't think I was going to let YOU keep carrying it, did you?
No. No, I definitely did not.

[DLcygnet]

...could we see him at least hold his own for a few moments before the old man tosses him in a circle like a rag doll. or let him get a few hits in before the Monk-Paladin fury of slap-smites him around? Or just let him succeed at the fort save against the summoned Nightcrawler?

On top of that, I have come to highly question his leadership talents...

does Roy add value to the Order...?

In general, each book focuses on a different character of the Order and they all get to shine at various points for character development purposes. We'll likely see Belkar on deck more in this book. I suspect the Giant feels he's spent a lot of time on Roy and is pulling his punches to allow others on the team to shine (he notoriously does this to V all the time too). Roy is a fine leader and fighter - don't let him getting nuked by psion, passing out drunk or poisoned in recent strips get you down. Besides, as Elan says, "Effectiveness is no fun AT ALL!" Which is the Giant's way of using his author avatar to remind us that he writes for entertainment, not for optimum combat strategy.

To keep your warm at night, here are a few Fighter love pages:

Off screen plans are always more successful!
Spell splinter & Tanking Tarquin
Not Durkon at All.
Pow!
Wham!
Best laid plans and... Flamestrike!
Shot Through the Heart
Flanked and still Fighting
The Twin Turbos

[Psyren]

does Roy add value to the Order,

Yes. Next question.

And boy did you skip a lot of the accomplishments in his resume to try and make your point. For starters, without him the Order would have been stranded in the mountains with no airship/crew when those giants attacked it.

[Lexible]

Roy:

• Captured the Linear Guild wizard

Not to mention he planned the routing of the Linear Guild.

[r2d2go]

He does do it pretty consistently, though. This is one of the incredibly few, if only, instances where he doesn't. Not being able to do something literally 100% of the time is hardly a failing.

Not that I'm saying that is his sole purpose of course, but he does fulfill that role well in addition to the other rolls he occupies.

A little late to reply but I should say I tend to agree, I just think he's failed to tank more often than that. A tank who simply survives is not a tank, and he fairly often fails to actually protect his backline party members. This might be the only time he failed due to taking excessive damage, rather than not taking enough damage, but both of those are failures to tank.

But I think we both agree that it's a minor downside to only one of his many strengths.

[Mr Popo]

The tank is useless because he has done a lot of tanking?

Roy has basically been the hero and also mostly effective most of the comic, bar the time he died, and even then, he went on a journey to be more effective.

It is at this point that most of the rest of the order has become as effective as he is, which makes him seem less competent by comparison.

But most of the order got owned this fight. It's not Roy sucking, it's the entire team going up against a tough ambush.

[Hurkyl]

I think there's literally nothing Roy could have done directly in this ambush unless they're able to ground Serini. And yet Serini still felt it important to spend the entire surprise round taking him out of the fight.

Edit: oh wait, that's not true. It's a bit of a stretch, but Roy's Knowledge (Architecture) might actually be relevant in this very situation, to help identify the nature of how the exit vanished.

[ORione]

I think there's literally nothing Roy could have done directly in this ambush unless they're able to ground Serini. And yet Serini still felt it important to spend the entire surprise round taking him out of the fight.

Edit: oh wait, that's not true. It's a bit of a stretch, but Roy's Knowledge (Architecture) might actually be relevant in this very situation, to help identify the nature of how the exit vanished.

He could throw his sword. Granted, he'd only be able to do that once before Sunny's main eye looked away. Unless the Greenhilt sword is an artifact.

[danielxcutter]

I do think that the current fight is… well, I’m fine with the general premise of “Team Serini is incredibly dangerous”, but I’d say the Order is being incapacitated a bit too much before turning it around for me to entirely like it - it feels like the competence they’ve gained in the last book or two has been reset. They did okay in BRItF and really well in UD - and the final fight in BRItF was mostly the team trying to run away while the Dining Room fight would have been a complete loss if not for Belkar and Durkon breaking through at just the right moments.

That being said, “Roy is useless” is entirely false; arguably he’s being useless now because he’d break Rich’s plans over his knee. It’s why the casters get screwed over so often.

[RatElemental]

Edit: oh wait, that's not true. It's a bit of a stretch, but Roy's Knowledge (Architecture) might actually be relevant in this very situation, to help identify the nature of how the exit vanished.

Roy is easily strong enough with his magic items to just be able to smash through that stone wall, and pretty good odds of being able to do so without them. No need to figure out what happened to the door when you can just make one.