Roy Greenhilt is useless?

[hamishspence]

If we're going by D&D rules, I would call Miko's action the surprise round which spurred everyone to make their initiative rolls. Roy could not have acted during that round.

If we're going by what would reasonably have happened without regard to D&D rules, I would call Miko's action surprising as all get-out since nobody could have reasonably expected she would go from 0-100 that fast and just straight up jump to murder. Roy could not have acted fast enough.

Either way, not really a problem as I see it.

Yup.

On the tabletop, it would need to be a conversation lasting several rounds, with Roy's player saying "I ready an action to bull-rush the paladin away if they try to attack" at the right point, for Roy's player to be able to "interrupt the attack" so they don't get a surprise round in the first place.

In this case, it's not really negligence, to fail to ready an action in in a timely manner.

After having stood by and did nothing while she executed his well-connected patron. Honestly, that was probably Roy's most indefensible blunder in the entire story. It's not like he was distracted or busy, he simply froze.

That's not a blunder, nor is it even remotely indefensible. He was caught off-guard because a paladin suddenly murdered her leige in cold blood. You know, something you wouldn't expect a paladin to do - and even at her worst, Roy acknowledged that Miko was a paladin. Even Hinjo was caught flat-footed, and he was already worried about how Miko was starting to act.

Eugene accuses Roy of "standing their and twiddling his thumbs" - but IMO that's just another part of establishing Eugene's unfairness.


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

[Ionathus]

Because it wasn't really that sudden. Her intentions were telegraphed by a not brief argument between her and Hinjo where she specifically rejected the idea of taking it to trial. And then she strode up to the throne and threw Shinjo into his seat. Where else was she going with that? Again, espeically given he knew her character by this point.

And I'm saying everything she does could easily be part of a single turn. Talking is a free action for antagonists, too.

Armchair quarterback the movements all you like: I still think you're reading too much into it. The scene is dedicated to showing Miko's fall. Of course she gets more talking time and a bit of cinematic leeway with the panels & movement rules. But taking the spotlight she was given and reframing it to portray Roy as incompetent or ignorant is absolutely your own interpretation.

Especially because, as I mentioned before, nobody says anything about it afterwards, and Roy has one of his best fights in the series on the following page where he shines dramatically.

[WindStruck]

So Roy isn't immune to a poison that knocked out O-Chul, and he doesn't have an insane uncanny dodge like Haley...

If Roy wasn't knocked out for this fight, I am pretty sure he would be throwing his sword and skewering a beholder several times.

[Liquor Box]

Lol Wait Wut? She's probably the most combat effective since she has the most uptime (not getting dead, poisoned, thrown off a cliff, or captured by Fiends); which results in more experience and thus is tied for highest level in the order (along with V). The whole point of this current comic sequence is to re-highlight she doesn't need a bow to be dangerous.

Yeah, that's my impression. I don't think she has played a crucial role in any important combats (except potentially this one) and all the others have been crucial in several. Has she had any one on one duels against significant opponents? She has been ineffective in several combats (egbeaten by the sorcerer bandit, dominated in the theives guild). Her strength isn't combat, it more about sneaking and trickery.

Who in the Order, other than Elan, do you think is less combat effective than Hayley?

[ebarde]

Probably Belkar? A lot of his combat showings are just clearing up mooks

[hungrycrow]

We see how Belkar and Haley match up against Crystal and Bozzok: Haley loses while Belkar manages to stall until Bozzok leaves.

Another thing to mention is that we're sort of talking about their builds, but their stats can always be outweighed by good tactics.

[Schroeswald]

Yeah, that's my impression. I don't think she has played a crucial role in any important combats (except potentially this one) and all the others have been crucial in several. Has she had any one on one duels against significant opponents? She has been ineffective in several combats (egbeaten by the sorcerer bandit, dominated in the theives guild). Her strength isn't combat, it more about sneaking and trickery.

Who in the Order, other than Elan, do you think is less combat effective than Hayley?

Haley hasn’t turned the tide of all that many crucial combats but she fought constantly during the Azure City siege and did very well, her attack was the last one against Tarquin and the one that defeated him. She won the combat encounter against Crystal, yea she won that through trickery and charisma but she defeated a significant opponent basically on her own. She was crucial to the ambush of the linear guild and has defeated Sabine several times, her skill set is incredibly useful both in and out of combat.

[Ionathus]

Haley hasn’t turned the tide of all that many crucial combats but she fought constantly during the Azure City siege and did very well, her attack was the last one against Tarquin and the one that defeated him. She won the combat encounter against Crystal, yea she won that through trickery and charisma but she defeated a significant opponent basically on her own. She was crucial to the ambush of the linear guild and has defeated Sabine several times, her skill set is incredibly useful both in and out of combat.

Haley also got the scene at Azure City where she figured out the shell game. That contribution to the team's tactics is mentioned specifically in the book commentary as a signifier of "Haley's back, look at how her cleverness helps the team now she has her voice again."

[elros]

Since Haley regained her voice (and hooked up with Elan), she has actually been pretty effective as a rogue. She has made a number of good role plays with her bluffs, understanding of how others bluff, etc. As a combatant, she is a ranged damage dealer and flanker, and does as well in that role.
In many ways, she has made the furthest progress as a character, with honorable mention to Belkar.

[Liquor Box]

Probably Belkar? A lot of his combat showings are just clearing up mooks

Yeah, but he has a lot of combats against significant opponents as well. The obvious one, as pointed out by HungryCrow, was the fight where he dominated the thieves' guild because Hayley had been getting well beaten by the same opponents. Others include beating one of the fake Xykons, several victories against Yukyuk etc, getting the better of Tsukiko in combat (and rescuing Haley), he soloed Goliath the vampire giant, and heplayed a significant role in the Tarquin fight. Now he has a dinosaur animal companion, he's pretty powerful in combat.

Haley hasn’t turned the tide of all that many crucial combats but she fought constantly during the Azure City siege and did very well, her attack was the last one against Tarquin and the one that defeated him. She won the combat encounter against Crystal, yea she won that through trickery and charisma but she defeated a significant opponent basically on her own. She was crucial to the ambush of the linear guild and has defeated Sabine several times, her skill set is incredibly useful both in and out of combat.

I agree her skill set is valuable out of combat, but I thought we were talking about their value in combat. If he are talking about their value to the party more generally, then I agree, she is not near the bottom.

[Schroeswald]

I agree her skill set is valuable out of combat, but I thought we were talking about their value in combat. If he are talking about their value to the party more generally, then I agree, she is not near the bottom.

I mean, everything I mentioned was in combat encounters, in combat she has defeated Sabine, in combat she was the one who had the final attack on Tarquin, in combat she was very effective in holding the line against the hobgoblins, in combat she was crucial to routing the linear guild, and when placed in combat with the more powerful Crystal she won and Crystal died. All of these are combat encounters where she is proving valuable to the team.

[KorvinStarmast]

Eugene accuses Roy of "standing their and twiddling his thumbs" - but IMO that's just another part of establishing Eugene's unfairness. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html

+1.

So Roy isn't immune to a poison that knocked out O-Chul, and he doesn't have an insane uncanny dodge like Haley...

If Roy wasn't knocked out for this fight, I am pretty sure he would be throwing his sword and skewering a beholder several times.

Or at least once; not sure how the Anti Magic eyeball would impact that Weapon of Legacy he's holding.

[Dion]

If your goal is to smash some boss monsters, V and Roy are your go-to PCs.

If the goal is to achieve some actual goal, I’d put Haley in charge.

[Ionathus]

I don't remember how the tangent of Haley's effectiveness got started (and yes, this is me invoking Mea Culpa on being too lazy to check), but I don't think combat effectiveness is productive as the sole metric for debate in a thread titled "Roy Greenhilt is useless."

Because if the premise is "what does this person bring to the team?" then out-of-combat skills are absolutely a must-have, whether we're talking about D&D gameplay roles or, more broadly, narrative roles in fiction.

[Psyren]

I don't remember how the tangent of Haley's effectiveness got started (and yes, this is me invoking Mea Culpa on being too lazy to check), but I don't think combat effectiveness is productive as the sole metric for debate in a thread titled "Roy Greenhilt is useless."

Because if the premise is "what does this person bring to the team?" then out-of-combat skills are absolutely a must-have, whether we're talking about D&D gameplay roles or, more broadly, narrative roles in fiction.

By the strictest definition though, combat skills for a group that is routinely in combat are useful. Therefore the answer to "is X useless", even if they ONLY bring combat skill, is a clear no.

And Roy does bring more than combat skill, so it's open and shut.

[Liquor Box]

I mean, everything I mentioned was in combat encounters, in combat she has defeated Sabine, in combat she was the one who had the final attack on Tarquin, in combat she was very effective in holding the line against the hobgoblins, in combat she was crucial to routing the linear guild, and when placed in combat with the more powerful Crystal she won and Crystal died. All of these are combat encounters where she is proving valuable to the team.

Yeah, I'm not saying she's worthless in combat at all. I just think that four of the other members are stronger in combat. She has done good things, with 1243 being perhaps the best example.

But in terms of your examples, she did defeat Sabine (as all the order have done with their opposites), I don't rate her shooting of Tarquin because he was already defeated and begging for his life, I don't think holding the line against hobgoblins means much when Belkar was able to rout hundreds of them, and I don't see her as defeating Crystal in combat.

Who in the Order, other than Elan do you think she's more effective than in combat.

I don't remember how the tangent of Haley's effectiveness got started (and yes, this is me invoking Mea Culpa on being too lazy to check), but I don't think combat effectiveness is productive as the sole metric for debate in a thread titled "Roy Greenhilt is useless."

It was because on page one I replied to this thread about Roy's combat effectiveness by saying I thought Roy was good in combat and that I considered Elan the weakest of the Order in combat, followed by Haley.

I took the discussion to be about combat effectiveness. As I've already noted, general effectiveness is a different discussion, and Haley would probably do better in that one.

[DLcygnet]

Who in the Order, other than Elan do you think she's more effective than in combat.

Easily Durkon. I play healers in RPGs and and video games. We're not allowed to die since we're the HP recharger, but we're not terribly helpful at neutralizing or whittling down HP on any given encounter.

[Peelee]

Easily Durkon. I play healers in RPGs and and video games. We're not allowed to die since we're the HP recharger, but we're not terribly helpful at neutralizing or whittling down HP on any given encounter.

D&D Clerics are amazing at whittling down HP on any given encounter. Which just fuels my burning desire for Team Pure Cleric. One day I'll get my friends to pull the trigger on that one, and the resulting campaign will be glorious.

[RatElemental]

Yeah "CoD-zilla" was a big aspect of 3.5. If a cleric was healing you they were wasting their action when they could be killing whatever put you down, and then healing you. If the DM finished you off when you were at -2 while there were still party members up he was either playing an incredibly petty jerk or being one.

[brian 333]

D&D Clerics are amazing at whittling down HP on any given encounter. Which just fuels my burning desire for Team Pure Cleric. One day I'll get my friends to pull the trigger on that one, and the resulting campaign will be glorious.

It's all in the build. We had the most combat-optimized cleric and the most pacifist healer in the same (all cleric) party. Our fights were short and not very entertaining. The pre-battle buffing was epic.

[hungrycrow]

I don't think Durkon quite rises to the level of CoDzilla, but he's still pretty powerful. He has decent melee skills, a bunch of really good buffs, and some powerful attack spells. Holy Word alone should solidify Durkon as combat effective.

[Liquor Box]

Easily Durkon. I play healers in RPGs and and video games. We're not allowed to die since we're the HP recharger, but we're not terribly helpful at neutralizing or whittling down HP on any given encounter.

To be honest I hadn't really considered Durkon's resume within the comic given that Clerics are usually quite strong.

He defeated the bandits, defeated leaky Windstaff, his holy word was decisive against the Linear Guild under the pyramid, but he lost to Malack, played a strong role in the council of clans. Maybe not so strong as Haley's resume?

[hungrycrow]

To be honest I hadn't really considered Durkon's resume within the comic given that Clerics are usually quite strong.

He defeated the bandits, defeated leaky Windstaff, his holy word was decisive against the Linear Guild under the pyramid, but he lost to Malack, played a strong role in the council of clans. Maybe not so strong as Haley's resume?

Throw in him smashing the Huecuva and ninja that attacked Hinjo.

[Peelee]

To be honest I hadn't really considered Durkon's resume within the comic given that Clerics are usually quite strong.

He defeated the bandits, defeated leaky Windstaff, his holy word was decisive against the Linear Guild under the pyramid, but he lost to Malack, played a strong role in the council of clans. Maybe not so strong as Haley's resume?

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the fight against Malack is a difficult point to consider, since Malack was also a Cleric.

[JonahFalcon]

If I recall, Haley talks to Roy's corpse about how nothing is going right without Roy, and later, Belkar tells Roy that everyone was completely useless (including himself) without Roy and completely out of control and making situations more complicated because everyone has their own motivations, and basically reverting to the chaos the team was when first fighting kobolds in On the Order of PCs.

[Ionathus]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but the fight against Malack is a difficult point to consider, since Malack was also a Cleric.

AND a vampire. The fact that Durkon even held his own is impressive.

[Metastachydium]

AND a vampire. The fact that Durkon even held his own is impressive.

Bah, Belkar guts a vampire cleric of roughly the same level faster than she can cast.

[Ionathus]

Bah, Belkar guts a vampire cleric of roughly the same level faster than she can cast.

My understanding is that Ponchula was 4+ levels below Belkar (11ish vs 15ish), but does the vampire block level adjustment change that equation?

Either way, Belkar got a lucky sneak attack (narratively, not mechanically, he's still not a rogue ) on her; I don't think it would've been that one-sided if they'd met head-on in a duel, like Durkon & Malack did. But with his swanky new magic items and protection from domination, I give Belkar fairer odds than when he tangled with Malack.

[hungrycrow]

Durkon assumed that anyone else in the party would have lost to Malack, and the end of the throne room fight kind of proved that assumption correct.

[Metastachydium]

My understanding is that Ponchula was 4+ levels below Belkar (11ish vs 15ish), but does the vampire block level adjustment change that equation?

You got it wrong. It's nameless female vampire's level 11+ versus Malack's semi-confirmed no higher than 12.
As for the LA, that matters little here. That +8 is mostly just a "don't play these critters" sign in flashy neons. I'd say the +2 bump to CR (what two more PC class levels would give) might be a more useful number here.

Either way, Belkar got a lucky sneak attack (narratively, not mechanically, he's still not a rogue ) on her; I don't think it would've been that one-sided if they'd met head-on in a duel, like Durkon & Malack did. But with his swanky new magic items and protection from domination, I give Belkar fairer odds than when he tangled with Malack.

Fair. (Still, if he could just one shot her like that, I'd bet on the Belkster-with-the-clasp-on in one-on-one.)