Roy Greenhilt is useless?

[Elenian]

...I'd be willing to bet Level 16 Roy can beat anything a Level 17 wizard could summon anyway.

That's a bet you will lose. Wizards have full-on Gate by 17. Roy is awesome, but he's not going to beat, say, an Uvuudaum in single combat. Even Greater Planar Binding at level 15 will get you a Pit Fiend or Planetar which will give even a fairly optimized fighter serious problems. Heck, you can get a Trumpet Archon from level 11 that would be a nontrivial threat. Most of these options don't cost you any spell slots at all, in that they have vast numbers of useful spell-likes, or full-on clerical casting of their own.

[hamishspence]

I don't know, a 38 HD Solar not only fights like a high level fighter, but has loads of Angel powers on top of it.

I could see a solar with more than the minimum 22 Hit Dice being ruled as a unique being, since it does not adhere to the basic statblock - and thus not controllable via Gate:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.


So if you just say "Solar" then the DM can restrict you to 22 HD solars, and you can't get an advanced solar without it being uncontrollable.

[TooSoon]

I could see a solar with more than the minimum 22 Hit Dice being ruled as a unique being, since it does not adhere to the basic statblock - and thus not controllable via Gate:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.


So if you just say "Solar" then the DM can restrict you to 22 HD solars, and you can't get an advanced solar without it being uncontrollable.

I'm not familiar with the rule that says a solar becomes a unique being at level 23. Is there one? Or is that just your opinion? It sounds like the latter.

[Liquor Box]

Roy's strength is he can fight for the team as a front liner and soak up damage... which a wizard can do with magic. V doesn't have conjuration (part of the plot railroading) so he's limited to transmutations like shapechange or illusions, but either can be used to exceed the value of Roy as a frontliner.

It is not railroading or nerfing that V isn't the optimal wizard or that he doesn't have conjuration. V also has only the spells he has, and it's not nerfing to restrict V to those.

In games it may be typical for every character to be optimised, but that's not any sort of logical necessity. It's not the way it is with people in real life, or with characters in the OotS world.

[hamishspence]

I'm not familiar with the rule that says a solar becomes a unique being at level 23. Is there one? Or is that just your opinion? It sounds like the latter.

All "advanced beings" are unique in the sense that they only exist within the setting "at the DM's discretion".

Similar principles would apply to not allowing players to summon an advanced animal via Summon Nature's Ally spells.


Or to spellcasters trying to summon a famous advanced Balor. They'd be a one-of-a-kind, you'd have to call them by name, and they'd be uncontrolled.

[TooSoon]

All "advanced beings" are unique in the sense that they only exist within the setting "at the DM's discretion".

Similar principles would apply to not allowing players to summon an advanced animal via Summon Nature's Ally spells.


Or to spellcasters trying to summon a famous advanced Balor. They'd be a one-of-a-kind, you'd have to call them by name, and they'd be uncontrolled.

Everything only exists at the DMs discretion though. I mean, your characters sheets need to be ticked off by the DM, the monsters on each settings, and the NPCs, are all created by and at the DMs discretion, and many don't use exact stat blocks from a text book, and even if they do they all have their own unique backstory for the campaign setting, so are all "unique" in the sense you mean. Long story short, there's no rule that a Solar above level 23 can't be gated just because the sample specs don't go that high. This just seems like a personal in-house rule you would like to use. It's not an actual rule. If a level 17 wizard wants to Gate in a level 38 Solar then it seems the rules allow them to do it, and control it.

[Metastachydium]

Also worth noting: Haley was fighting the thieves' guild for some time before Belkar joined the battle... in an enclosed area, which is not ideal for an archer She was still doing well until Crystal (her personal nemesis) gimped her by destroying her bow. Belkar came in late to a fight that Haley had already been fighting on her own for a while. He admittedly embarrassed Crystal and had the upper hand against Bozzok, but I think the circumstances are enough to say it's not a clear-cut indicator of superior combat skills.

Yeah, she managed to kill a few polite mooks who slowly walked towards her one at a time, and then three currently unarmed nobodies before she was power attacked into submission by some dumb brute and Celia, of all people, had to bail her out.

Do you mean HPoH? It's not really fair to count him since he literally exposed his chest for Belkar to stake.

Nope. I mean Greg's right hand woman.

[hamishspence]

If a level 17 wizard wants to Gate in a level 38 Solar then it seems the rules allow them to do it, and control it.

34 Hit Dice, not 38. 17x2 = 34.

And it depends how they're phrasing the Gate spell.

IMO, if they say "I want to Gate in a Solar" it is within the DM's remit to say "OK, you get a solar" - and give them the basic 22 HD one, regardless of how high level the PC is. Players get what they DM chooses to hand out, and what DMs choose to hand out can be assumed to be, by default, the minimum.

If they ask for more than "the regular monster" - it's up to the DM. They can say if the player asks for "A 34 HD solar" that none exist, and not be considered to be "twisting the rules". Advanced monsters are much more overtly discretionary than non-advanced monsters.

And if the player finds out the name of a particular, famous, unusually powerful solar, and say "I wish to Gate in the Solar Avarmaritz" - then that is, by definition, a unique creature.

Long story short, there's no rule that a Solar above level 23 can't be gated just because the sample specs don't go that high. This just seems like a personal in-house rule you would like to use. It's not an actual rule. If a level 17 wizard wants to Gate in a level 38 Solar then it seems the rules allow them to do it, and control it.

If nothing else, updating a monster from "standard" to "advanced" requires a lot of extra work on the DM's part, if it's a lot of hit dice that the monster gains. Not really practical in a combat situation, where the PC is gating in a monster, as one standard action, to attack other monsters. Expecting the rest of the players to be patient while the game grinds to a halt while the DM adds 12 hit dice to the "basic monster statblock", is, IMO, expecting too much.

[brian 333]

We're talking about a level 17+ wizard being used optimally, not subject to plot railroading. If V had conjuration he just summons something stronger than Roy to be a meatshield, or more likely a whole bunch of somethings. V can also turn into stuff much stronger than Roy with Shapechange, or use illusions to create foes stronger than Roy. Roy being strong outside of battle isn't terrible useful.

Just have a party of 6 wizards if you want to know where the wizard is while one wizard is doing something else. Magic can be used to replicate all the stuff the others can do and more.

This sounds like something that looks good in theory. Have you ever playtested it?

Not as a final boss encounter where everyone starts at full hp and spell slots, but as a campaign where the enemy reacts to invasion?

My bet is that you have not. I have. A lot. I came into D&D from wargames, and replaying scenarios was our thing.

An all wizard party uses up too many spell slots to get anywhere, and when they get there they have already used up their spell slots and they have nothing left for the boss. Or they retreat, and have to travel a long way to get to a safe rest area, (or endure countless interruptions in their much needed rest.) By the time they are ready to go back the enemy has entrenched, trapped, and called up reinforcements, leaving your party worse off than before. And then you finally get to the boss and discover he's watched your group long enough to know a disjunction spell turns Hulk back into Banner. (Or worse,) he's packed up the treasure, killed the hostages, and split while you were killing off his minions.

Once, (about a dozen times in that test,) one of our group made almost the exact assertion. Another player said he could take out a team of four wizards with four rogues. The wizard player cried foul when the rogue player simply waited for spells to time out before attacking.

It's a nice theory, but outside of scenarios designed to favor the wizard it never works as well as it does in theory. Let me know how your playtesting works out.

For a much smaller investment the same wizard can buff Roy, (a handfull of level 1&2 slots with maybe a 3 and 5 tossed in for fun,) and instead of retreating when the buffs start to fade, give Roy a Potion (TM), a few more low level buffs, and keep grinding, so that the boss never has time to reorganize or pack up, and your wizard arrives in his lair ready to do some wizardry.

[hungrycrow]

This sounds like something that looks good in theory. Have you ever playtested it?

Not as a final boss encounter where everyone starts at full hp and spell slots, but as a campaign where the enemy reacts to invasion?

My bet is that you have not. I have. A lot. I came into D&D from wargames, and replaying scenarios was our thing.

An all wizard party uses up too many spell slots to get anywhere, and when they get there they have already used up their spell slots and they have nothing left for the boss. Or they retreat, and have to travel a long way to get to a safe rest area, (or endure countless interruptions in their much needed rest.) By the time they are ready to go back the enemy has entrenched, trapped, and called up reinforcements, leaving your party worse off than before. And then you finally get to the boss and discover he's watched your group long enough to know a disjunction spell turns Hulk back into Banner. (Or worse,) he's packed up the treasure, killed the hostages, and split while you were killing off his minions.

Once, (about a dozen times in that test,) one of our group made almost the exact assertion. Another player said he could take out a team of four wizards with four rogues. The wizard player cried foul when the rogue player simply waited for spells to time out before attacking.

It's a nice theory, but outside of scenarios designed to favor the wizard it never works as well as it does in theory. Let me know how your playtesting works out.

For a much smaller investment the same wizard can buff Roy, (a handfull of level 1&2 slots with maybe a 3 and 5 tossed in for fun,) and instead of retreating when the buffs start to fade, give Roy a Potion (TM), a few more low level buffs, and keep grinding, so that the boss never has time to reorganize or pack up, and your wizard arrives in his lair ready to do some wizardry.

This is an OotS forum, I assume most of us have played Dnd a fair bit. Admittedly I've never playtested this specific scenario, mostly because I've found a single mid-op wizard is enough to start controlling the game, and trying to play four complete with contingency lists and minionmancy would get pretty boring.

In this scenario, aren't we talking about 17th level wizards? Why are they running away on foot instead of teleporting? Why aren't they getting their meatshields ahead of time with planar binding or animate dead?

[TooSoon]

34 Hit Dice, not 38. 17x2 = 34.

And it depends how they're phrasing the Gate spell.

IMO, if they say "I want to Gate in a Solar" it is within the DM's remit to say "OK, you get a solar" - and give them the basic 22 HD one, regardless of how high level the PC is. Players get what they DM chooses to hand out, and what DMs choose to hand out can be assumed to be, by default, the minimum.

If they ask for more than "the regular monster" - it's up to the DM. They can say if the player asks for "A 34 HD solar" that none exist, and not be considered to be "twisting the rules". Advanced monsters are much more overtly discretionary than non-advanced monsters.

And if the player finds out the name of a particular, famous, unusually powerful solar, and say "I wish to Gate in the Solar Avarmaritz" - then that is, by definition, a unique creature.




If nothing else, updating a monster from "standard" to "advanced" requires a lot of extra work on the DM's part, if it's a lot of hit dice that the monster gains. Not really practical in a combat situation, where the PC is gating in a monster, as one standard action, to attack other monsters. Expecting the rest of the players to be patient while the game grinds to a halt while the DM adds 12 hit dice to the "basic monster statblock", is, IMO, expecting too much.

Level 34, excuse me. Typo.

All you're telling us is your personal preference, not that there is any rule against it.

[Dion]

Level 34, excuse me. Typo.

All you're telling us is your personal preference, not that there is any rule against it.

Hmm… you’re allowed to gate a “particular being” or a “kind of being”.

I fully agree a generic 22HD solar is a “kind of being”.

I’m not sure if a 34HD solar is a “kind of being”.

Once you start asking for a solar with a specific set of attributes (such as HD), I have wonder if you’re not falling into the particular being territory.

[brian 333]

This is an OotS forum, I assume most of us have played Dnd a fair bit. Admittedly I've never playtested this specific scenario, mostly because I've found a single mid-op wizard is enough to start controlling the game, and trying to play four complete with contingency lists and minionmancy would get pretty boring.

In this scenario, aren't we talking about 17th level wizards? Why are they running away on foot instead of teleporting? Why aren't they getting their meatshields ahead of time with planar binding or animate dead?

Your DM is easy on you, isn't he?

You could get as many minions as you like with Planar Binding and Animate Dead, and Roy would chew through them like a hog at a bake sale. That's assuming your bound minions don't escape and attack their summoner first. (Any bound outsider capable of contesting level 16 Roy is likely to make one of its three saves/day against your mage.)

And gate. Ah, yes, the ultimate summon spell. What do you have to offer a 34 hd solar that it would accept as payment to be your meatshield for a dungeon crawl? And what are you willing to do if you can't pay up on payday?

But assume you get a solar. (Whoops, there go your undead minions!) A properly buffed team of average level 17 can take it down. Without much problem. (And you still owe the promised pay.)

Roy can't be dispelled or banished, which all summons can. Roy won't turn into an AC 13, 43 hp liability when spell durations expire. And Roy doesn't require half your high level spell slots every few hours to stay in the game.

And I'm sure you won't believe me, so playtest it yourself. Be fair, play both sides, and try to win every time. I await your report.

[The MunchKING]

The original quotes I was responding to were

On the other hand, a few really low level spells that buff Roy make him more powerful than anything you could summnn.

And I'd be willing to bet Level 16 Roy can beat anything a Level 17 wizard could summon anyway.

"Some buffs make Roy better than ANYTHING you can summon" and "Level 16 Roy beats ANYTHING a level 17 Wizard could summon".

But assume you get a solar. (Whoops, there go your undead minions!) A properly buffed team of average level 17 can take it down. Without much problem. (And you still owe the promised pay.)

Now it's morphed into a full team AVERAGE level 17, no stated restrictions on class.

Roy can't be dispelled or banished, which all summons can.

Roy can't banish or dispel which makes this comparison useless.

Also, Plane Shift disagrees with you.

And I'm sure you won't believe me, so playtest it yourself. Be fair, play both sides, and try to win every time. I await your report.

Well the actual "real world" results would also vary based on a bunch of factors like terrain, and resources.

[Metastachydium]

But assume you get a solar. (Whoops, there go your undead minions!) A properly buffed team of average level 17 can take it down. Without much problem. (And you still owe the promised pay.)

Roy can't be dispelled or banished, which all summons can. Roy won't turn into an AC 13, 43 hp liability when spell durations expire. And Roy doesn't require half your high level spell slots every few hours to stay in the game.

You do realize that anything capable of easily obliterating a 34 HD solar (obscene amounts of hp, DR and regeneration only bypassed by epic and evil, tons of SLAs including Wish, 20th level cleric casting, a +54 to Will saves against banishment if you overcome its SR &c. &c.) will simply pulverize a level 16 fighter even faster and then the fighter is dead?

[Dion]

I think the argument is “a different party with several combat oriented spellcasters and fewer bards could beat this party in combat.”

I agree with this.

[TooSoon]

Hmm… you’re allowed to gate a “particular being” or a “kind of being”.

I fully agree a generic 22HD solar is a “kind of being”.

I’m not sure if a 34HD solar is a “kind of being”.

Once you start asking for a solar with a specific set of attributes (such as HD), I have wonder if you’re not falling into the particular being territory.

Is a 22HD dragon a "kind of being", but a 34HD dragon is not? This just seems like a personal preference, not anything in the rules. Not that I'm saying to try and to gate in dragons, I'm just saying this seems like some kind of personal preference, not something in the rules. To anyone who takes what I just said too literally; the black dragon in the manual goes up to 38+HD, which is in the great wyrm category. Now clearly it can go above 38HD, the manual just doesn't keep listing beyond the 38HD type. You can do your own calculations as it levels up as the DM. That doesn't make a 38HD black dragon "non-unique" and a 39HD black dragon "unique".

[Dion]

Is a 22HD dragon a "kind of being", but a 34HD dragon is not?

A mature adult black dragon has 22hd by default, and a black wyrm has 34hd by default, so yes… I think they’re both a “kind of being”.

But I think we’re confusing a “particular being” vs a “unique being”.

Tom, the ancient black dragon with 15 cleric levels, who always brings his wand of resurrection with him, is a particular being, but not a unique being.

The Tarrasque is unique.

At any rate, the whole gate thing is silly.

Yes, you can gate in a huge monster. If your DM lets you, you can even gate in and control a huge monster with extra hot die. Get a 34th level half orc Barbarian if you want.

But none of that makes Roy useless.

[Mechalich]

I think the argument is “a different party with several combat oriented spellcasters and fewer bards could beat this party in combat.”

I agree with this.

It's not even that. You could take this same core party assembly and build it better and make it much more powerful. Roy's actually the simplest case, he's a strength-based fighter using a two-handed weapon, which is an acceptable approach for a fighter, but his attributes are badly arranged for his build and has poor skill and feat selection. He doesn't appear to use Power Attack or Combat Expertise (and his Int qualifies for the latter certainly). Belkar likewise has a mismatch between his attributes and his class - no ranger should be using Wis as a dump stat - and his build is actually really bad because TWF-ing is actually terrible in 3.5. His skills and feats are also terribly arranged and even if you count Bloodfeast as an animal companion now, he spent most of the comic without one and for some reason no one has bothered to dispel the polymorph effect for hundreds of strips. Elan has terrible attributes as well - his low Int robs him of skill points and I don't think he's ever even bothered to use bardic knowledge, and he's entered a prestige class that appears to be genuinely terribly and robs him of all his higher-level bard abilities.

Durkon and V are better. They're mostly limited by poor spell selection (and Durkon burning apparently all his 4th level spell slots on Sending literally every day) and V's having the most powerful spell school (by a significant margin) as their prohibited school. However their builds are aggressively generic and neither has a prestige class or item creation feats or any other force multiplier in their build. Haley actually has the best build of the group, as an archery rogue willing to employ fairly aggressive UMD. However, Rogue is low-tier class and archery is a low-damage option in 3.5e.

Of course, it's not like the comic is unaware of this. The story has engaged in numerous circumlocutions to obscure the Order's weakness and to prevent their slightly-better-optimized mirror images in the Linear Guild from utterly pulverizing them (notably by removing the divine caster from said group). At the same time, it hasn't really hesitated to display how weak the Order's non-casters actually are, like the time Redcloak almost killed Roy, Elan, Haley, and Belkar using a single summoning spell.

Even more broadly there's also the issue that basically everyone in the comic is brutally undergeared. If the members of the Order are at even 25% of their appropriate WBL I'd be greatly surprised, something that actually makes the impacts of Tier-variance even worse.

[The MunchKING]

Elan did at least one successful Bardic Knowledge.

[brian 333]

You do realize that anything capable of easily obliterating a 34 HD solar (obscene amounts of hp, DR and regeneration only bypassed by epic and evil, tons of SLAs including Wish, 20th level cleric casting, a +54 to Will saves against banishment if you overcome its SR &c. &c.) will simply pulverize a level 16 fighter even faster and then the fighter is dead?

And I'm certain your DM will let you summon as many as you like.

The first hurdle you'll have to overcome is to get this being to agree to help. Easy in a theoretical vs. challenge. Almost impossible in a campaign. The solar has no reason to do what you want and if you have something to trade, chances are real good you don't have two, so this is a once in a lifetime summon.

Theorycrafting allows me to gear up Roy to the same expense level your wizard spent on the summon. So I buy regen items and spell immunity items and size enhancement items, nullifying the Solar's advantages, and then we see if that green glow is worth anything in battle.

But wait, that's not all! Because all Roy has to do is jump around the Solar and kill your mage. Contract fulfilled; solar goes home. I hope your guy can pay off the solar, (or enjoys polishing alabaster furniture.)

Theorizing is fun. If it's never tested the e-paper it's printed on is worth more.

[The MunchKING]

Yeah because Roy was known for having a 9 foot vertical while wearing plate.

Besides, we all know jumping tends not to work well for fighters with fancy swords.

[danielxcutter]

Uh, I’m pretty sure even a default Solar can beat the crap out of Roy buffed with only 9th-level spell. If he’s buffed with a variety of spells - which is absolutely possible, because the Solar’s not entering combat instantly with buffs and isn’t sticking around long for the summoner to give a lot of them - then he has a better chance, but a) it’s CR 23, he’s not expected to solo it anyways and b) that’s disingenuous if you’re comparing their base capabilities - and he’d probably STILL lose.

Gate’s got a 500 XP cost for summons - arguably that’s not enough.

[Hurkyl]

Elan has terrible attributes as well - his low Int robs him of skill points and I don't think he's ever even bothered to use bardic knowledge,

It's also worth remembering that Elan conveys far less than he understands; strip #30 gives a great example of how it works.

[hamishspence]

I think we’re confusing a “particular being” vs a “unique being”.

Tom, the ancient black dragon with 15 cleric levels, who always brings his wand of resurrection with him, is a particular being, but not a unique being.

The Tarrasque is unique.

IMO "A particular being" and "A unique being" are the same thing.

If a PC has the extraplanar subtype, and another creature finds out that they exist, they can Gate the PC themselves in - like

"I want to Gate in the neraphim Aahz"


but because they are gating in them specifically, then they're uncontrolled., and don't have to come if they don't want to. This ensures that extraplanar PCs don't have to worry about their enemies finding their names out, and gating them away from what they are doing.

Controlled creatures can only be gated in "as a kind of creature" rather than "as specific individuals".

And I'm certain your DM will let you summon as many as you like.

The first hurdle you'll have to overcome is to get this being to agree to help. Easy in a theoretical vs. challenge. Almost impossible in a campaign. The solar has no reason to do what you want and if you have something to trade, chances are real good you don't have two, so this is a once in a lifetime summon.

A controlled Gated creature must fight a single battle, for you, for free, if you demand that and only that.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service.

[Dion]

IMO "A particular being" and "A unique being" are the same thing.

Maybe. It’s honestly hard to tell from the spell description.

Either way, suppose you’re 17th level and you summon something that’s 34HD..

There’s no rule that says Summoned creatures have to be happy about the task they are assigned.

And that’s worth remembering, because the summoned creature is an actual sentient being of considerable power, with its own will and it’s own personal agenda, and it doesn’t get mind wiped or anythjng after the summons

If it doesnt appreciate what it’s been asked to do, the summoner has created a very powerful enemy.

Anyhow, if the question can V kick Roy’s butt, the answer wr is yes, V can kick Roy’s butt.

[TooSoon]

Maybe. It’s honestly hard to tell from the spell description.

Either way, suppose you’re 17th level and you summon something that’s 34HD..

There’s no rule that says Summoned creatures have to be happy about the task they are assigned.

And that’s worth remembering, because the summoned creature is an actual sentient being of considerable power, with its own will and it’s own personal agenda, and it doesn’t get mind wiped or anythjng after the summons

If it doesnt appreciate what it’s been asked to do, the summoner has created a very powerful enemy.

Anyhow, if the question can V kick Roy’s butt, the answer wr is yes, V can kick Roy’s butt.

I think the wider point is that everyone on the order, except Durkon, could have their functions easily replaced by another arcane (or non-arcane) caster like a wizrd or druid. The only reason the current team members are relevant is because this is a story, and the story demands they are. 4 more V's on the team would be able to do everything Roy, Hayley, Elan and Belkar do, but better, and a lot more on top of that.

Roy is a meat-shield. Another V on the team could just summon/dominate/illusion-up better meat shields. Belkar, ostensibly, can find things, have a nifty animal companion, and be a 2nd-ary fighter; again, a caster can use magic to do all those things, and a lot more besides. The same applies to Elan, and (to a slightly lesser extent) Hayley.

The team needs Roy the way we need doorstops. You need one sometimes I guess, but a brick would do the same thing, and the person providing the bricks can do 20 other things better anyway than Roy as well.

[hungrycrow]

I think the wider point is that everyone on the order, except Durkon, could have their functions easily replaced by another arcane (or non-arcane) caster like a wizrd or druid. The only reason the current team members are relevant is because this is a story, and the story demands they are. 4 more V's on the team would be able to do everything Roy, Hayley, Elan and Belkar do, but better, and a lot more on top of that.

Roy is a meat-shield. Another V on the team could just summon/dominate/illusion-up better meat shields. Belkar, ostensibly, can find things, have a nifty animal companion, and be a 2nd-ary fighter; again, a caster can use magic to do all those things, and a lot more besides. The same applies to Elan, and (to a slightly lesser extent) Hayley.

The team needs Roy the way we need doorstops. You need one sometimes I guess, but a brick would do the same thing, and the person providing the bricks can do 20 other things better anyway than Roy as well.

Well, 4 theoretically well-played wizards could replace the team. V has gotten smarter but they still don't optimize to the extent a batman wizard does.

[brian 333]

I think the wider point is that everyone on the order, except Durkon, could have their functions easily replaced by another arcane (or non-arcane) caster like a wizrd or druid. The only reason the current team members are relevant is because this is a story, and the story demands they are. 4 more V's on the team would be able to do everything Roy, Hayley, Elan and Belkar do, but better, and a lot more on top of that.

Roy is a meat-shield. Another V on the team could just summon/dominate/illusion-up better meat shields. Belkar, ostensibly, can find things, have a nifty animal companion, and be a 2nd-ary fighter; again, a caster can use magic to do all those things, and a lot more besides. The same applies to Elan, and (to a slightly lesser extent) Hayley.

The team needs Roy the way we need doorstops. You need one sometimes I guess, but a brick would do the same thing, and the person providing the bricks can do 20 other things better anyway than Roy as well.

You use up a crapload of spells doing this and you get the benefit for a number of rounds or turns.

Roy can't be banished. Belkar can't be dispelled. Haley can't be ignored while you kill the summoner.

The theory looks good, but after three encounters your wizards have to rest. What's the enemy doing in all that time? Patiently waiting for your return? Or did he learn from your previous attempts and is making things harder? Or grabbing the loot and running?

Playtest it. I have. The theory looks good, but any DM worth his dice bag will cure you of that delusion rather quickly.

[TooSoon]

You use up a crapload of spells doing this and you get the benefit for a number of rounds or turns.

Roy can't be banished. Belkar can't be dispelled. Haley can't be ignored while you kill the summoner.

The theory looks good, but after three encounters your wizards have to rest. What's the enemy doing in all that time? Patiently waiting for your return? Or did he learn from your previous attempts and is making things harder? Or grabbing the loot and running?

Playtest it. I have. The theory looks good, but any DM worth his dice bag will cure you of that delusion rather quickly.

So basically your wizards can't do everything if the side you are fighting also has casters. This is in no way a rebuttal to my point. If the opponent you are fighting is a team of non-casters like Roy and Hayley and Elan and Belkar then the caster team goes to town on them. The only shortcoming is if you fight a team with Vs and Durkons, in which case more Vs and Durkon's are still better placed to fight this team of casters (e.g. a druid with the natural spell-feat wading into attack, another caster with good defences, etc). Would Elan, Roy, Hayley and Belkar even survive ordinary broken spells from run of the mill casters like Cloudkill, Black Tentacles, Horrid Wilting (from a distance, coupled with teleport), Irresistible Dance (utilized by an archmagi with arcane reach) or Maze? Never mind Gate and the like.