Roy Greenhilt is useless?

[elros]

So basically your wizards can't do everything if the side you are fighting also has casters. This is in no way a rebuttal to my point. If the opponent you are fighting is a team of non-casters like Roy and Hayley and Elan and Belkar then the caster team goes to town on them. The only shortcoming is if you fight a team with Vs and Durkons, in which case more Vs and Durkon's are still better placed to fight this team of casters (e.g. a druid with the natural spell-feat wading into attack, another caster with good defences, etc). Would Elan, Roy, Hayley and Belkar even survive ordinary broken spells from run of the mill casters like Cloudkill, Black Tentacles, Horrid Wilting (from a distance, coupled with teleport), Irresistible Dance (utilized by an archmagi with arcane reach) or Maze? Never mind Gate and the like.

The rules of D&D 3.5 allow full casters to dominate at higher levels, and wizards with the right spells can overcome any situation. There is a reason the Giant has limited the full casters: V banned conjuring and cannot summon, and is also restricted by the soul debt to IIFC, Minrah is lower level, and Durkon never has the right spells prepared. It is easy to imagine a story where a few casters dominate everything around them.
And Roy has spent the entire comic trying to prove that fighters are not useless. Given the limitations of his class, he is effective in his role, especially with his weapon of legacy. And I am not sure, but I think Roy has been knocked out more than anyone else in the party, consistent with his role as meat-shield.
And that limitation is exactly why I like Roy the character so much: he does his best to be a leader, and that means trying to get each member of the party to be as effective as they can be. And as the Deva said when he was judging him, the fact that he is trying is important.
I also admit I am biased because I loved playing the “fighter with a six pack of potions.”

[brian 333]

So basically your wizards can't do everything if the side you are fighting also has casters. This is in no way a rebuttal to my point. If the opponent you are fighting is a team of non-casters like Roy and Hayley and Elan and Belkar then the caster team goes to town on them. The only shortcoming is if you fight a team with Vs and Durkons, in which case more Vs and Durkon's are still better placed to fight this team of casters (e.g. a druid with the natural spell-feat wading into attack, another caster with good defences, etc). Would Elan, Roy, Hayley and Belkar even survive ordinary broken spells from run of the mill casters like Cloudkill, Black Tentacles, Horrid Wilting (from a distance, coupled with teleport), Irresistible Dance (utilized by an archmagi with arcane reach) or Maze? Never mind Gate and the like.

Great spells. You'll never get to cast them with a ranger going full melee on your wizard. Two, three rounds of failed spells and dead caster.

I imported a halfling ranger built as a mage-killer into NwN and was killing player wizards twice his level. The only time he was vulnerable was when I was AFK.

But the character concept was born as Evrin Strongarm in 1st ed around 1982 or so. Rangers make awesome mage-killers, and got better at it with each edition. Rogues do a good job too. And even if they can't kill the mage for some reason, a grappled mage isn't casting anything.

Do me a favor: make your best solo mage, figure out all his best tricks, then make a character of any class and playtest ways to beat your unbeatable wizard. You will be surprised.

[TooSoon]

Great spells. You'll never get to cast them with a ranger going full melee on your wizard. Two, three rounds of failed spells and dead caster.

I imported a halfling ranger built as a mage-killer into NwN and was killing player wizards twice his level. The only time he was vulnerable was when I was AFK.

But the character concept was born as Evrin Strongarm in 1st ed around 1982 or so. Rangers make awesome mage-killers, and got better at it with each edition. Rogues do a good job too. And even if they can't kill the mage for some reason, a grappled mage isn't casting anything.

Do me a favor: make your best solo mage, figure out all his best tricks, then make a character of any class and playtest ways to beat your unbeatable wizard. You will be surprised.

You couldn't be more wrong.
- Horrid Wilting can be cast from 1080 feet away by a level 17 mage. Your fighter will be dead long before they get into range of the Wizard, even if the Wizard stands still (never mind that the wizard can fly, teleport, and cast other spells to protect themselves from you harming them, and probably has buffs ready).
- Don't think the Wizard is prepped enough? Maze can be cast from 65 feet away by a level 17 caster, and offers no saving throw whatever. The Wizard then has ample time to prepare with buffs and summons that will curbstomp your ranger/fighter when they get out of the Maze, or the spell expires 10 minutes later more likely).
- Irresistible dance combined with arcane reach can be cast from 30-90 feet away, and offers no saving throw. After it hits you, you're basically defenceless.
- Black tentacles is basically inescapable for most meatshields, and can be cast multiple times if someone does escape.

Those are just a handful of average spells, nowhere near the level of Gate, that would render your meat head useless. Heck, you're talking this fight going 3-4 rounds... even a run of the mill idiot blaster mage who just exchanges damage with you stands a strong chance of finishing you off in 2-3 rounds tops if they select the right spells. Do you have any idea how much damage the right blasting spells do? We had a thread where we were discussing ways V could, in theory, finish off Xykon in a single round.

Your whole scenario seems to only work if the melee fighter starts the fight standing right next to the (unbuffed) caster, in a tightly confined space like a dungeon, where they can't move around to create distance, and can't cast defensively because you have a cribbed version of spell splice.

[Ionathus]

So you're saying full-casters are supreme and untouchable and can do everything better than non-casters, as long as they get to face every single battle on their terms? No dungeons, no going multiple fights between resting, no ambushes or surprise rounds, no resource expenditure, full-nova allowed at every encounter?

Perhaps you have a point, but if I could just have a second to explain these perfect calculations about my Spherical Paladin in a Vacuum...

[brian 333]

You couldn't be more wrong.
- Horrid Wilting can be cast from 1080 feet away by a level 17 mage. Your fighter will be dead long before they get into range of the Wizard, even if the Wizard stands still (never mind that the wizard can fly, teleport, and cast other spells to protect themselves from you harming them, and probably has buffs ready).
- Don't think the Wizard is prepped enough? Maze can be cast from 65 feet away by a level 17 caster, and offers no saving throw whatever. The Wizard then has ample time to prepare with buffs and summons that will curbstomp your ranger/fighter when they get out of the Maze, or the spell expires 10 minutes later more likely).
- Irresistible dance combined with arcane reach can be cast from 30-90 feet away, and offers no saving throw. After it hits you, you're basically defenceless.
- Black tentacles is basically inescapable for most meatshields, and can be cast multiple times if someone does escape.

Those are just a handful of average spells, nowhere near the level of Gate, that would render your meat head useless. Heck, you're talking this fight going 3-4 rounds... even a run of the mill idiot blaster mage who just exchanges damage with you stands a strong chance of finishing you off in 2-3 rounds tops if they select the right spells. Do you have any idea how much damage the right blasting spells do? We had a thread where we were discussing ways V could, in theory, finish off Xykon in a single round.

Your whole scenario seems to only work if the melee fighter starts the fight standing right next to the (unbuffed) caster, in a tightly confined space like a dungeon, where they can't move around to create distance, and can't cast defensively because you have a cribbed version of spell splice.

And you still have not playtested this. The fact that a wizard can cast a spell that kills a fighter is no surprise, and yet you reject the premise that a fighter can smack a wizard around with a pointy stick. Whose scenario is more likely in a campaign, and not a vs. challenge in an empty gladiatorial arena?

Your mage is going to be out of spells long before she gets anywhere near the boss in a dungeon crawl. And I'm sure those low level encounters are just going to stand where they are, waiting for her to get a good 8 hours, plus spending the next 8 hours studying spells so she can then go back and do another hour and a half of fighting before she needs another 16 hours.

While the creatures in the dungeon stand there waiting.

[The MunchKING]

plus spending the next 8 hours studying spells so she can then go back

This isn't AD&D. a Wizard only needs 1 hour to rememorize spells.

[Dion]

I like the party combo of fighter / cleric / thief / mage. I think it’s fun to play.

I imagine it’s possible to play with a mage / cleric / mage / mage combo, but I can’t see it being as much fun.

So, for me, mage / cleric / mage / mage can’t do everything that fighter / cleric / mage / thief can do.

[hamishspence]

This isn't AD&D. a Wizard only needs 1 hour to rememorize spells.

They also need 8 hours of "restful calm", but that's already been mentioned.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOver...ngWizardSpells

Rest
To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period. If her rest is interrupted, each interruption adds 1 hour to the total amount of time she has to rest in order to clear her mind, and she must have at least 1 hour of uninterrupted rest immediately prior to preparing her spells. If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

Preparation Environment
To prepare any spell, a wizard must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The wizard’s surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from overt distractions. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might experience while studying. Wizards also must have access to their spellbooks to study from and sufficient light to read them by. There is one major exception: A wizard can prepare a read magic spell even without a spellbook.

Spell Preparation Time
After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.

Spell Selection and Preparation
Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

[Dion]

Perhaps you have a point, but if I could just have a second to explain these perfect calculations about my Spherical Paladin in a Vacuum...

A spherical paladin? Absurd!

Where would the stick go?

[hungrycrow]

So you're saying full-casters are supreme and untouchable and can do everything better than non-casters, as long as they get to face every single battle on their terms? No dungeons, no going multiple fights between resting, no ambushes or surprise rounds, no resource expenditure, full-nova allowed at every encounter?

Perhaps you have a point, but if I could just have a second to explain these perfect calculations about my Spherical Paladin in a Vacuum...

Wizards aren't exactly untouchable, but they have the most powerful and most varied offensive, defensive, and utility abilities. Resource allocation is a problem, but unfortunately less than you'd think, because the wizard is getting more resources every time they level. Is the DM making more encounters per day as the wizard levels? How many encounters is the DM throwing against a 17th level wizard with like 40 spells? How about a team of wizards with 150+ spells?

Ambushes are a problem for any character, but a wizard or cleric is going to have more options for either detecting the ambush or escaping. And really that applies to any type of encounter. Every character wants encounters to be fought on their terms, but casters have better options for making the encounter be fought on their terms.

I feel like this thread turned into another "wizards are op" rant. There really isn't a reason to compare Roy's usefulness to a high op wizard in OotSworld, where casters mostly don't bother with the paranoid shenanigans players do.

[Ionathus]

A spherical paladin? Absurd!

Where would the stick go?

Okay, a Cake-Pop Paladin in a Vacuum then.

[RatElemental]

Okay, a Cake-Pop Paladin in a Vacuum then.

I'm pretty sure those only existed in the movie snack universe.

[Dion]

I feel like this thread turned into another "wizards are op" rant.

Op? What is Op?

Like “original pachyderms” or something?

[elros]

Op? What is Op?

Like “original pachyderms” or something?

Overpowered.

I think the Roy vs Xykon will give us insight into that battle. Roy is a magic sword and spell breaker feat has a chance, but only if he starts out with Xykon in melee range. As Xykon already proved, he can overcome things Roy cannot (e.g. gravity and falling damage).

[The MunchKING]

They also need 8 hours of "restful calm", but that's already been mentioned.

Well yes, of course. But that's a 9 hour turn around time, not the 16 brian was saying.

I feel like this thread turned into another "wizards are op" rant. There really isn't a reason to compare Roy's usefulness to a high op wizard in OotSworld, where casters mostly don't bother with the paranoid shenanigans players do.

Originally it was Roy vs. V if V hadn't banned Conjuration. Then just anything summonable by level 17 wizard.

SO since the whole point of the argument is about conjuration, it would be remiss of me to point out that Teleportation being Conjuration is one of the main reason it's so good and the reason people say wizards can control where and when they fight.

[hungrycrow]

Op? What is Op?

Like “original pachyderms” or something?

I made it a little confusing because I used OP for both overpowered as well as high op for high optimization.

[TooSoon]

Wizards aren't exactly untouchable, but they have the most powerful and most varied offensive, defensive, and utility abilities. Resource allocation is a problem, but unfortunately less than you'd think, because the wizard is getting more resources every time they level. Is the DM making more encounters per day as the wizard levels? How many encounters is the DM throwing against a 17th level wizard with like 40 spells? How about a team of wizards with 150+ spells?

Ambushes are a problem for any character, but a wizard or cleric is going to have more options for either detecting the ambush or escaping. And really that applies to any type of encounter. Every character wants encounters to be fought on their terms, but casters have better options for making the encounter be fought on their terms.

I feel like this thread turned into another "wizards are op" rant. There really isn't a reason to compare Roy's usefulness to a high op wizard in OotSworld, where casters mostly don't bother with the paranoid shenanigans players do.

And that's the mic drop.

Casters aren't entirely untouchable, but they're close enough that it doesn't matter. The person who keeps saying "you haven't playtested it!" is talking to a forum full of people who have long known that casters like Wizards were broken in 3.5, which is why future editions nerfed them substantially. This isn't some controversial point where I need to provide scientific evidence. I'm sorry your gaming experiences didn't yield the same results, but it might be because you DM was being nice, or random variables like luck, or because you were playing at level 10 or something, before the casters become supreme. Once they're around level 17 like V there is really no argument they are far and away the most useful character types, and can basically replace everything the non-casters do and more. There just aren't going to be that many encounters, to the point a team of casters is out of juice, and if there is it's a terribly DM'd setting designed purely to kill the caster team. A team of say a specialist wizard with decent bonuses, a druid, a cleric, a sorcerer, a psion and a wizard archmagi will also have a huge number of spells/spell-like-abilities per day. They are not running out in a hurry, and have plenty of methods to protect themselves if they do (e.g. just cast a forcecage if you get tired slaying people). If V cast a Forcecage on the 4 non-caster members of the party, would they have anything to do except sit in it and feel stupid?

I laid out a bunch of relatively ordinary spells and said "ok, how does your ranger/fighter type beat them" to absolutely no answer.

[hungrycrow]

There just aren't going to be that many encounters, to the point a team of casters is out of juice, and if there is it's a terribly DM'd setting designed purely to kill the caster team. A team of say a specialist wizard with decent bonuses, a druid, a cleric, a sorcerer, a psion and a wizard archmagi will also have a huge number of spells/spell-like-abilities per day. They are not running out in a hurry, and have plenty of methods to protect themselves if they do (e.g. just cast a forcecage if you get tired slaying people).

I'd also point out here, a dungeon with enough encounters to drain an all-caster party will also definitely drain the classic wizard-cleric-fighter-rogue party. And then they'd either retreat or die too, because the fighter and rogue probably can't handle this killer dungeon by themselves.

[Liquor Box]

Is this argument about high level caster vs high level fighter?

Or is it about V, with the spells V has and the playstyle V has vs Roy with the abilities Roy has and the playstyle he has?

Because the first is just theorycrafting and has nothing to do with the Order, or with how effective Roy is in the comic.

[Dion]

Is this argument about high level caster vs high level fighter?

No, this argument is that the best thing for the Order to do is get rid of Roy, Elan, Belkar, and Haley, and replace them all with combat optimized 17th level wizards.

The party should be Durkon, V, W, X, Y, and Z.

Imagine how badass that would be!

For example, just imagine how well they would have done in this fight with the eye tyrant! The fight would have been over in two rounds.

Also, probably get rid of V too, because V is poorly optimized

[Mechalich]

Is this argument about high level caster vs high level fighter?

Or is it about V, with the spells V has and the playstyle V has vs Roy with the abilities Roy has and the playstyle he has?

Because the first is just theorycrafting and has nothing to do with the Order, or with how effective Roy is in the comic.

It's more about the ability of Roy - a high-level fighter - to contribute to a storyline which contains ultimate enemies he will struggle to significantly contribute to defeating. It's worth noting that the Order regularly struggles to defeat challenges arguably well below their effective level - such as the gang of Frost Giants they fought most recently - due to a combination of bad builds, insufficient WBL, and role-playing based inefficiency (ex. Durkon burning essentially all his 4th level spell slots every day on a pile of Sendings).

It's worth recalling that, back around comic #900, Roy, Elan, Belkar, and Haley all struggled significantly to defeat a single Summon Monster IX elemental that Redcloak threw at them. That is direct in-comic evidence of their inability to do much to contribute in a final fight between the Order and Redcloak+Xykon. In all honesty, Redcloak could possibly defeat the entire Order, by himself, with a single casting of Gate. I mean, does anyone really see the Order taking down a Pit Fiend or Balor without a lot of luck?

Thinking about Redcloak, this situation applies to the villain's side as well, since Redcloak, as a cleric with access to all spells on the cleric list, is arguably more dangerous than Xykon because despite Xykon's higher level, his spell list (which we mostly know) is awful.

Ultimately the overriding issue is that high-level 3.5 is a system where build is all. A properly built Tier I is functionally a deity (and I'm not talking about theorycrafted characters, just a straight wizard or cleric with appropriate gear, feats, and spells), while a Tier 4 or lower character will struggle immensely to handle level appropriate challenges unless they are built to one of a very small number of niche methods. It's not anybody's fault, and it's not like the author is unaware of the issue, but it is a problem the comic cannot easily escape.

[Liquor Box]

It's more about the ability of Roy - a high-level fighter - to contribute to a storyline which contains ultimate enemies he will struggle to significantly contribute to defeating. It's worth noting that the Order regularly struggles to defeat challenges arguably well below their effective level - such as the gang of Frost Giants they fought most recently - due to a combination of bad builds, insufficient WBL, and role-playing based inefficiency (ex. Durkon burning essentially all his 4th level spell slots every day on a pile of Sendings).

It's worth recalling that, back around comic #900, Roy, Elan, Belkar, and Haley all struggled significantly to defeat a single Summon Monster IX elemental that Redcloak threw at them. That is direct in-comic evidence of their inability to do much to contribute in a final fight between the Order and Redcloak+Xykon. In all honesty, Redcloak could possibly defeat the entire Order, by himself, with a single casting of Gate. I mean, does anyone really see the Order taking down a Pit Fiend or Balor without a lot of luck?

Thinking about Redcloak, this situation applies to the villain's side as well, since Redcloak, as a cleric with access to all spells on the cleric list, is arguably more dangerous than Xykon because despite Xykon's higher level, his spell list (which we mostly know) is awful.

Ultimately the overriding issue is that high-level 3.5 is a system where build is all. A properly built Tier I is functionally a deity (and I'm not talking about theorycrafted characters, just a straight wizard or cleric with appropriate gear, feats, and spells), while a Tier 4 or lower character will struggle immensely to handle level appropriate challenges unless they are built to one of a very small number of niche methods. It's not anybody's fault, and it's not like the author is unaware of the issue, but it is a problem the comic cannot easily escape.

So are we judging Roy:
- against his peers (others in the party)
- against other character who are available in the OotS world (who are unlikely to be optimised)
- or against theoretical characters who would create if character creation were possible.

It seems you are doing the last. And if so, you are probably right - a optimally built character probably is much better than Roy. But I don't think that's a fair comparison, because (like with the real world) the OotS world doesn't have a host of optimised characters running around.

[TooSoon]

Is this argument about high level caster vs high level fighter?

Or is it about V, with the spells V has and the playstyle V has vs Roy with the abilities Roy has and the playstyle he has?

Because the first is just theorycrafting and has nothing to do with the Order, or with how effective Roy is in the comic.

The thread can make more than 1 point at a time. A number of these points can all be true, and as everyone has said: the author is aware of it, has discussed it, and 95% of people on here are aware of it. 3.5 was delightfully broken, and the rules were substantially changed to nerf many things in future additions to try and make the game more balanced. Take the Tarrasque; nigh unbeatable in most situations in 3.5, but nerfed to the point of comedy in later editions.

Wizards/caster-types are much the same in 3.5. They're not technically unbeatable, but with any sort of proper design they are close enough practically speaking. Even unoptimized, Roy is a joke compared to V or Durkon, and the author is aware of it and has said so. There is a reason so many plot devices keep getting used to try and obscure this reality (e.g. Durkon keeps getting killed so he levels down, Durkon/V are off the team for a while, V is turned into a lizard, V is off panel yet again, V is taken out before he can render the team useless, V's build doesn't include the very best school of magic so he can't just solve all their problems easily, etc). Take a look at the characters with the least on panel appearances. It's no surprise it's the casters. Them being around breaks the team, as they make the other 4 near useless at times. The author sometimes jokes about this, like when Hayley and Elan are discussing their elaborate plan to fight Tarquin's flying riders... then V just takes them all out in 1 shot. "Right, Wizard" mutters Hayley.

[brian 333]

And that's the mic drop.

Casters aren't entirely untouchable, but they're close enough that it doesn't matter. The person who keeps saying "you haven't playtested it!" is talking to a forum full of people who have long known that casters like Wizards were broken in 3.5, which is why future editions nerfed them substantially. This isn't some controversial point where I need to provide scientific evidence. I'm sorry your gaming experiences didn't yield the same results, but it might be because you DM was being nice, or random variables like luck, or because you were playing at level 10 or something, before the casters become supreme. Once they're around level 17 like V there is really no argument they are far and away the most useful character types, and can basically replace everything the non-casters do and more. There just aren't going to be that many encounters, to the point a team of casters is out of juice, and if there is it's a terribly DM'd setting designed purely to kill the caster team. A team of say a specialist wizard with decent bonuses, a druid, a cleric, a sorcerer, a psion and a wizard archmagi will also have a huge number of spells/spell-like-abilities per day. They are not running out in a hurry, and have plenty of methods to protect themselves if they do (e.g. just cast a forcecage if you get tired slaying people). If V cast a Forcecage on the 4 non-caster members of the party, would they have anything to do except sit in it and feel stupid?

I laid out a bunch of relatively ordinary spells and said "ok, how does your ranger/fighter type beat them" to absolutely no answer.

A grossly inaccurate summary, there. I said exactly how I'd beat them: by never letting the wizard cast them. You rejected that as a scemario that favored the fighter, and countered with a scenario that favored the wizard.

But then I had already countered that before when describing an actual playtest. The team of rogues ran away and waited for the pre-buffed wizards' spell durations to expire. Then through sniping and sneak attacks, they decimated the wizards. We played that one about a dozen times. The wizards didn't always lose, but they lost more than the rogues.

The thing is, while wizards have big, flashy spells, there are time and quantity issues. Spell Durations expire, Spell Slots get used up, and dangit if there aren't one or two spells that looked useful, but you never got the chance to use them. Your wizard has to waste spells getting past the gate guards, and every other encounter to get to the boss, and you just don't have enough spell slots.

A fighter never uses up his allotment of 'smack with pointy stick' attacks. He can get the party past the gate guards, and with a little wizardly help all the way to the boss, where the wizard can use her high level spells to take down the boss, instead of wasting them just getting there.

The wizard was never OP. The wizard was always a glass cannon: powerful but fragile.

Think of it in terms of infantry versus artillery. Your artillery can make hash of the enemy infantry, but without infantry support, even a devastated enemy infantry unit can silence your artillery.

So, don't bother playtesting, because you can't be wrong. If you ever find yourself at a con playing a competitive scenario against a ranger named Everin Strongarm, move to a different table, because your much valued illusions will be challenged.

[JNAProductions]

A grossly inaccurate summary, there. I said exactly how I'd beat them: by never letting the wizard cast them. You rejected that as a scenario that favored the fighter, and countered with a scenario that favored the wizard.

But then I had already countered that before when describing an actual playtest. The team of rogues ran away and waited for the pre-buffed wizards' spell durations to expire. Then through sniping and sneak attacks, they decimated the wizards. We played that one about a dozen times. The wizards didn't always lose, but they lost more than the rogues.

How do they run away? Wizards have faster speed (through Flight and whatnot) and Divinations to keep them tracked.

The thing is, while wizards have big, flashy spells, there are time and quantity issues. Spell Durations expire, Spell Slots get used up, and dangit if there aren't one or two spells that looked useful, but you never got the chance to use them. Your wizard has to waste spells getting past the gate guards, and every other encounter to get to the boss, and you just don't have enough spell slots.

And Rogues have limited HP, plus limited use of anything outside skills and stabs, unless using items that have no limited usages. Most do.

A fighter never uses up his allotment of 'smack with pointy stick' attacks. He can get the party past the gate guards, and with a little wizardly help all the way to the boss, where the wizard can use her high level spells to take down the boss, instead of wasting them just getting there.

The wizard was never OP. The wizard was always a glass cannon: powerful but fragile.

The Fighter can run out of HP, though. And that will (at higher levels, and high-op play) happen a long time before a Wizard runs out of spells.

Also, when a Wizard can Abrupt Jaunt, and has 100% fortification (from the Heart spells), and can Scry to see what the threats are in advance to know where and when to be, and can Teleport past a lot of the threats a Fighter would have to fight... I dunno if "glass" is the right word. Cannon, sure.

Think of it in terms of infantry versus artillery. Your artillery can make hash of the enemy infantry, but without infantry support, even a devastated enemy infantry unit can silence your artillery.

So, don't bother playtesting, because you can't be wrong. If you ever find yourself at a con playing a competitive scenario against a ranger named Everin Strongarm, move to a different table, because your much valued illusions will be challenged.

Your version of 3.5 sounds like a lot of fun. It does not, though, sound like the rules as written, when played to a high degree of optimization.

I don't doubt that, in a lot of practical play, Wizards can run out of spells, or have the wrong spells, and a big burly meatshield is useful to have around.
But equally, parts of that can be "Well, Bob wants to play a Fighter-so I won't bind some Devils to be meatshields, so he can have his fun." And other parts can be "It'd be really boring to just Scry & Die every encounter, and I don't actually WANT to use all these divinations all the time. It'd be practical, sure, but boring."

Those are entirely metagame concerns.

On another track, let me propose a couple of scenarios for you. Tell me how you'd handle the challenges as a group of Fighters, and as a group of Wizards. (You can sub in other martials for Fighters, and other casters for Wizards, if you like. But subbing in, for example, a Duskblade for a Fighter would raise some eyebrows in a way a Barbarian wouldn't.)

Spoiler: The Flying Castle

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The BBEG has just launched their flying castle, and is preparing their Ritual Of Ultimate Doom^TM that will end the world as we know it.

You have...

1) One month...
2) One week...
3) One day...

To stop them!

Spoiler: The Fabled McGuffin

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The long-lost Orb Of Great Power^TM is required to complete the ritual to bring prosperity back to the world.

There is a sage in the northern wastes, past the orcish badlands and the frozen mountains, who can lead you to it.

Once the sage is reached, they reveal to you that the Orb is located deep within the earth itself, slumbering with the Tarrasque.

Spoiler: Princess Rescue

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Princess Kihdnahpd was kidnapped! Efreeti brigands stole her, and she's now somewhere in the City of Brass, for what reason, you know not. You also don't know, without knowledge checks, what group of efreeti were the ones to steal her.

[TooSoon]

A grossly inaccurate summary, there. I said exactly how I'd beat them: by never letting the wizard cast them. You rejected that as a scemario that favored the fighter, and countered with a scenario that favored the wizard.

But then I had already countered that before when describing an actual playtest. The team of rogues ran away and waited for the pre-buffed wizards' spell durations to expire. Then through sniping and sneak attacks, they decimated the wizards. We played that one about a dozen times. The wizards didn't always lose, but they lost more than the rogues.

The thing is, while wizards have big, flashy spells, there are time and quantity issues. Spell Durations expire, Spell Slots get used up, and dangit if there aren't one or two spells that looked useful, but you never got the chance to use them. Your wizard has to waste spells getting past the gate guards, and every other encounter to get to the boss, and you just don't have enough spell slots.

A fighter never uses up his allotment of 'smack with pointy stick' attacks. He can get the party past the gate guards, and with a little wizardly help all the way to the boss, where the wizard can use her high level spells to take down the boss, instead of wasting them just getting there.

The wizard was never OP. The wizard was always a glass cannon: powerful but fragile.

Think of it in terms of infantry versus artillery. Your artillery can make hash of the enemy infantry, but without infantry support, even a devastated enemy infantry unit can silence your artillery.

So, don't bother playtesting, because you can't be wrong. If you ever find yourself at a con playing a competitive scenario against a ranger named Everin Strongarm, move to a different table, because your much valued illusions will be challenged.

As the guy above me just highlighted, your version of D&D sounds fun. It does not resemble the actual rules of 3.5 as they exist. How will you stop the Wizard casting their spells when they are:
1) Faster than you (with fly, teleport, etc)
2) Able to anticipate you with precognition magic
3) Able to cast spells that will end you long before they run out of spells.
4) Able to cast defensively

Like, what's the counter? You and the Wizard are in a face off from say 30 feet away. The Wizard casts any of the spells I mentioned. How do you avoid being basically one shot? The answer is you don't. The Wizard will also be able to use that turn to create even more distance if needs be. The weirdest thing about the one scenario you suggested, involving Rogues running off to hide, is that it is the LEAST smart strategy. You're going to give the wizard MORE prep? That's certain death for you if the wizard is vaguely competent. It's moot though because the idea of you being able to actually "escape" someone with the powers of a wizard is positively cute. As I noted, a bunch of these standard spells can be cast from large distances, including over 1000 feet away. Your rogue will be dead long before they escape.

Like, let's say V casts something as basic as resilient sphere or forcecage on the other 4 party members not named Durkon. Can they do anything whatever in response?

[Mechalich]

Wizards/caster-types are much the same in 3.5. They're not technically unbeatable, but with any sort of proper design they are close enough practically speaking. Even unoptimized, Roy is a joke compared to V or Durkon, and the author is aware of it and has said so. There is a reason so many plot devices keep getting used to try and obscure this reality (e.g. Durkon keeps getting killed so he levels down, Durkon/V are off the team for a while, V is turned into a lizard, V is off panel yet again, V is taken out before he can render the team useless, V's build doesn't include the very best school of magic so he can't just solve all their problems easily, etc). Take a look at the characters with the least on panel appearances. It's no surprise it's the casters. Them being around breaks the team, as they make the other 4 near useless at times. The author sometimes jokes about this, like when Hayley and Elan are discussing their elaborate plan to fight Tarquin's flying riders... then V just takes them all out in 1 shot. "Right, Wizard" mutters Hayley.

Right, and this disparity has now become a problem for the comic because it is approaching the final climax because Redcloak (not Xykon, who is hobbled to a beatable level by his terrible spells known list) is actually a functional Tier I caster who has unleashed at least some solid caster tricks in the past like minionomancy (his elementals thing is a long-running joke of its own, but he's also created and used undead extensively), mass buffing, and escape spells (he cast Word of Recall at least once and saved himself in the process).

A climactic battle between the Order and Xykon can only go off if Redcloak isn't actively supporting Xykon. There are various ways he might be neutralized, whether Durkon actually talks him into standing aside, the MitD intervenes, or something else, but Redcloak is simply too powerful a piece at present for the heroes to overcome.

[JNAProductions]

Right, and this disparity has now become a problem for the comic because it is approaching the final climax because Redcloak (not Xykon, who is hobbled to a beatable level by his terrible spells known list) is actually a functional Tier I caster who has unleashed at least some solid caster tricks in the past like minionomancy (his elementals thing is a long-running joke of its own, but he's also created and used undead extensively), mass buffing, and escape spells (he cast Word of Recall at least once and saved himself in the process).

A climactic battle between the Order and Xykon can only go off if Redcloak isn't actively supporting Xykon. There are various ways he might be neutralized, whether Durkon actually talks him into standing aside, the MitD intervenes, or something else, but Redcloak is simply too powerful a piece at present for the heroes to overcome.

To be noted, the goal is now “Redcloak working WITH the Order,” not killing him.

[TooSoon]

Right, and this disparity has now become a problem for the comic because it is approaching the final climax because Redcloak (not Xykon, who is hobbled to a beatable level by his terrible spells known list) is actually a functional Tier I caster who has unleashed at least some solid caster tricks in the past like minionomancy (his elementals thing is a long-running joke of its own, but he's also created and used undead extensively), mass buffing, and escape spells (he cast Word of Recall at least once and saved himself in the process).

A climactic battle between the Order and Xykon can only go off if Redcloak isn't actively supporting Xykon. There are various ways he might be neutralized, whether Durkon actually talks him into standing aside, the MitD intervenes, or something else, but Redcloak is simply too powerful a piece at present for the heroes to overcome.

V, who is all but certainly level 17+, is more powerful than Redcloak right now probably. This idea the order can't beat Redcloak is silly, because they have someone already more powerful than him.

[hungrycrow]

V, who is all but certainly level 17+, is more powerful than Redcloak right now probably. This idea the order can't beat Redcloak is silly, because they have someone already more powerful than him.

I'm not sure V is level 17 yet, we haven't seen them cast ninths. And even with ninths I think it would be pretty even.

The real problem is defeating him a way that he doesn't die and doesn't word of recall away.