Roy Greenhilt is useless?

[TooSoon]

We actually don't even know if Xykon has 2 Epic Spell slots.

Xykon is unbeatable... except for that time he lost to Soon, and a Silver Dragon, or that time a level 8 fighter beat him, or that time he almost got taken out by an exploding Dungeon, etc, etc. The 2 most serious opponents Xykon has faced were both nerfed by the author for plot reasons. Both Durokan and V should have beaten him, but didn't because the story demanded it. In a straight up fight with the Ancient Black Dragon, Xykon almost certainly lose (assuming he didn't run away in time) based on the spells he has shown so far, and there are hundreds if not thousands of dragons in this world alone, and many monsters and dragons more powerfull than the ABD. With the limited amount I've seen of the Linear Guild, it feels like they would have been able to take down Xykon.

Xykon is powerful, but there are others more powerful.

[Hurkyl]

Both Durokan and V should have beaten him, but didn't because the story demanded it.

Aside: do you really mean V specifically should have beaten him, or do you instead mean some completely different person who had access to the same resources but without arrogant belief he was powerful enough to casually brute force a victory? (I can't say anything about the Dorukan fight)

[TooSoon]

Aside: do you really mean V specifically should have beaten him, or do you instead mean some completely different person who had access to the same resources but without arrogant belief he was powerful enough to casually brute force a victory? (I can't say anything about the Dorukan fight)

I mean someone who had the same strength as V, but employed moderate competence, and didn't lose because the plot demanded it. I believe Xykon COULD have somehow beat Dorukan, but the actual fight that happened (coupled with the actual abilities Xykon has shown) were worse than the V fight.

Let's be real here. If Durkon and Roy were able to spring an ambush in this dungeon with Durkon using Anti-Magic field, then Durkon and Roy would make short work of him based on the actual abilities Xykon has shown to date. Even Durkon by himself, provided he has Xykon in a relatively confined space so he can't run, would take Xykon down with an AMF probably. Xykon is little more than a skeleton with a lot of hit points in an AMF. His special abilities and magic are all gone. He'd be left with Epic Mage Armour, so he'd take less damage, but Durkon also has an artifact hammer which retains it's abilities in the AMF, so you'd have to give Durkon decent odds. Combined with Roy in such a situation Xykon is doomed. Yes, he can cast Superb Dispelling (at least once, we don't know if can do it more times), but that wont work. Each time he casts S.Dispelling he takes non-trivial backlash damage, and even if he could somehow cast it say 6 times, Durkon can prepare to cast AMF more than 6 times with ease. So Xykon is just damaging himself the more he dispels it. We know he doesn't have quicken spell, so he can't hustle out of there with a teleport after dispelling it. Durkon can just keep trapping him in it.

[Mechalich]

I mean someone who had the same strength as V, but employed moderate competence, and didn't lose because the plot demanded it. I believe Xykon COULD have somehow beat Dorukan, but the actual fight that happened (coupled with the actual abilities Xykon has shown) were worse than the V fight.

V beats Xykon if they succeed on the concentration check invoked by the anti-spell traps in Xykon's base (which Redcloak, not Xykon, is responsible for) and thereby successfully open the fight using Time Stop. Xykon describes the check as super easy, which suggests it's impossible for him to fail. Assuming the lich has something like +30 to the check (that'd be around 20 hp of damage, not unreasonable), I'd imagine a DC around there, which is very makeable for a level 14-15 V (should be above +20, probably closer to +25). Even assuming a conservative 50% chance to pass the check, Xykon survives based on a coin toss, which is hardly something the 'ultimate villain' can hang his hat on.

Xykon is little more than a skeleton with a lot of hit points in an AMF. His special abilities and magic are all gone.

He may retain his damage reduction of 15/bludgeoning in an anti-magic field (depends on interpretation), even though the 'magic' part vanishes. That's significant against Roy (because he doesn't power attack), and other members of the Order. Honestly, the Order really ought to have invested in a few basic magical blunt weapons for Belkar, Elan, and Haley in the assumption of the upcoming lich fight (Roy's weapon of legacy appears to be able to overcome Xykon's damage reduction). +1 maces are cheap and abundant, and would make a huge difference for Belkar especially who is otherwise basically unable to damage Xykon at all.

[Liquor Box]

That's a highly dubious win. For one, Durcula absolutely had Roy except for a 'sneak attack from behind' and was toying with Roy throughout the fight, considering that he had no need to fight Roy at all since he could have cast Antilife Shell from the start and simply didn't until Roy revealed his previously unknown weapon of legacy ability. Critically, that ability appears to include an effect that can actually permakil a vampire, putting Durcula in real danger for the first time.

Maybe. But I can't recall many times he lost to casters one on one.

It really isn't. Xykon's spell list is really bad and would struggle severely to penetrate the defenses of even a moderately prepared opponent. He has to rely on using Superb Dispelling to smash apart an opponent's defenses and then concentrate on winning the subsequent burn battle. He's reasonably well designed to win that battle, admittedly, being both a sorcerer and a lich, but he has vulnerabilities. His complete and total lack of any minionomancy of his own, notably, is an issue, especially when it comes to opponents immune to mind-affecting and death attacks (ironically, he's vulnerable to being wailed on by the undead).

It also might be possible to round-robin Xykon out of superb dispellings (presumably he only has two epic spell slots) and once that's done he's unable to defeat a turtled-up caster.

Who can you think who is more powerful? Maybe the MitD?

He did already beat the three most powerful wizards of all time spliced together.

Any vulnerability you identify is only relevant to the extent there is a character who is set up to exploit those vulnerabilities, and whose usualy fighting style allows them to do so.

[hamishspence]

He did already beat the three most powerful wizards of all time spliced together.

First- V had only two soul splices in the fight with Xykon, not three (V had lost Haerta's splice right after the fight with the black dragon).

Second, V is still bound by the action economy, so it's not like fighting two wizards - it's like fighting one wizard with access to the same amount of spells as two wizards.

[Liquor Box]

First- V had only two soul splices in the fight with Xykon, not three (V had lost Haerta's splice right after the fight with the black dragon).

Second, V is still bound by the action economy, so it's not like fighting two wizards - it's like fighting one wizard with access to the same amount of spells as two wizards.

Yep, understand that (well, I'd forgotten that there were only two wizards left) but V at that point still must have been incredibly powerful, perhaps more powerful than any wizard ever, and Xykon stomped him.

[TooSoon]

V beats Xykon if they succeed on the concentration check invoked by the anti-spell traps in Xykon's base (which Redcloak, not Xykon, is responsible for) and thereby successfully open the fight using Time Stop. Xykon describes the check as super easy, which suggests it's impossible for him to fail. Assuming the lich has something like +30 to the check (that'd be around 20 hp of damage, not unreasonable), I'd imagine a DC around there, which is very makeable for a level 14-15 V (should be above +20, probably closer to +25). Even assuming a conservative 50% chance to pass the check, Xykon survives based on a coin toss, which is hardly something the 'ultimate villain' can hang his hat on.



He may retain his damage reduction of 15/bludgeoning in an anti-magic field (depends on interpretation), even though the 'magic' part vanishes. That's significant against Roy (because he doesn't power attack), and other members of the Order. Honestly, the Order really ought to have invested in a few basic magical blunt weapons for Belkar, Elan, and Haley in the assumption of the upcoming lich fight (Roy's weapon of legacy appears to be able to overcome Xykon's damage reduction). +1 maces are cheap and abundant, and would make a huge difference for Belkar especially who is otherwise basically unable to damage Xykon at all.

1) No, Xykon loses his damage reduction. As I said, he's little more than a skeleton with a lot of HP in an AMF.
2) V could have used a tonne of ways to win if he fought remotely competently, it was not just contingent on the Time Stop (especially since all V has to do is cast the buffs they wanted to during Time Stop BEFORE they teleported in). Idiot ball/railroad plot sadly.
3) Durkon's hammer is a blunt weapon, and it retains it's magical abilities in an AMF because it's an artefact, which is why I mentioned it and noted Durkon would probably solo him if he cast AMF with Xykon's back against a wall. With Roy joining him it would be over in no time, basically unwinnable for Xykon as currently displayed (if he has other abilities we don't know about then maybe he could do something).

Xykon beating V (and Dorukan) was plot driven, not based on what should have happened with competent tactics employed. Xykon would get stomped by the ABD that V fought, never mind various Epic Monsters.

[hamishspence]

1) No, Xykon loses his damage reduction. As I said, he's little more than a skeleton with a lot of HP in an AMF.something).

DR/bludgeoning is Extraordinary

DR/magic is Supernatural

DR/bludgeoning and magic, is two different DRs, combined. A case could be made that in an antimagic field, DR/Bludgeoning and magic, changes to "Just" DR/bludgeoning, rather than going away completely.

[TooSoon]

DR/bludgeoning is Extraordinary

DR/magic is Supernatural

DR/bludgeoning and magic, is two different DRs, combined. A case could be made that in an antimagic field, DR/Bludgeoning and magic, changes to "Just" DR/bludgeoning, rather than going away completely.

This is the link to the Lich template in 3.5. It clearly lists the DR aspect as being (Su)/supernatural in nature, when it refers to both the bludgeoning and the magic resistance.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm
"Damage Reduction (Su)
A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. "

Supernatural abilities are toast in the AMF, so Xykon gets no damage reduction of any kind. Xykon retains his extra-ordinary abilities, which are also listed; but damage reduction is not among them.

[The MunchKING]

We actually don't even know if Xykon has 2 Epic Spell slots.

You have to in order to be able to get Epic Casting.

You need 24 ranks in the Knowledge skill appropriate for your class to take the feat, and your spell ranks per day are Knowledge skill ranks/10.

[TooSoon]

You have to in order to be able to get Epic Casting.

You need 24 ranks in the Knowledge skill appropriate for your class to take the feat, and your spell ranks per day are Knowledge skill ranks/10.

Well, I kinda assumed he had to have 2 Epic Spell slots even though we hadn't seen him cast 2 in a day because if he has Epic Mage Armour he assumedly burns a slot casting that every morning. That still only leaves him with 1 other slot he know for sure he has going into any given fight.

[dmc91356]

On the idea of Durkon soloing Xykon in an AMF, didn't the recent comic which showed him failing to get the hammer up to Sunny (panel 7 of https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1239.html) shed some light on this?

Not sure how across-the-board that applies, but it might mean that the hammer isn't artifact level because, if it were, I would think it could be thrown as normal in Sunny's AMF.

[Vinyadan]

I don't think Durkon quite rises to the level of CoDzilla, but he's still pretty powerful. He has decent melee skills, a bunch of really good buffs, and some powerful attack spells. Holy Word alone should solidify Durkon as combat effective.

Leeky the Druid and Durkon the Cleric going all out against each other as giant titans towering over a modern-looking city was actually a reference to CoDzilla, it's written in one of the commentaries. (I get what you mean, I thought it was an interesting thing to point out)

[woweedd]

1) No, Xykon loses his damage reduction. As I said, he's little more than a skeleton with a lot of HP in an AMF.
2) V could have used a tonne of ways to win if he fought remotely competently, it was not just contingent on the Time Stop (especially since all V has to do is cast the buffs they wanted to during Time Stop BEFORE they teleported in). Idiot ball/railroad plot sadly.
3) Durkon's hammer is a blunt weapon, and it retains it's magical abilities in an AMF because it's an artefact, which is why I mentioned it and noted Durkon would probably solo him if he cast AMF with Xykon's back against a wall. With Roy joining him it would be over in no time, basically unwinnable for Xykon as currently displayed (if he has other abilities we don't know about then maybe he could do something).

Xykon beating V (and Dorukan) was plot driven, not based on what should have happened with competent tactics employed. Xykon would get stomped by the ABD that V fought, never mind various Epic Monsters.

I wouldn't say it was an idiot ball, so much as V being...Well, kinda an idiot. V has massive Int, true, but their Wisdom is not the best, clearly. They got cocky, thought they were invincible, and got punched into the ground. That's not really an idiot ball, that's who V is: They're someone who relies on the idea of brute force above all else, "as the size of an explosion increases, the umber of situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero" and so forth. They were so effective against the Black Dragon, mainly because the ABD's threating of their kids pissed them off enough to dispense with their ego and get to the point. That ego boost, however, meant they drastically underestimated Xykon.

[Dion]

I am fully on board with Roy being replaced by any of the other far more competent adventuring mages with party leadership potential that we’ve seen in comic.

Maybe one of the mages at WartHogs could replace him.

[Mechalich]

I wouldn't say it was an idiot ball, so much as V being...Well, kinda an idiot. V has massive Int, true, but their Wisdom is not the best, clearly. They got cocky, thought they were invincible, and got punched into the ground. That's not really an idiot ball, that's who V is: They're someone who relies on the idea of brute force above all else, "as the size of an explosion increases, the umber of situations it is incapable of resolving approaches zero" and so forth. They were so effective against the Black Dragon, mainly because the ABD's threating of their kids pissed them off enough to dispense with their ego and get to the point. That ego boost, however, meant they drastically underestimated Xykon.

They didn't drastically underestimate Xykon. Arguably, V didn't underestimate Xykon at all, but instead underestimated Redcloak's ability to get more out of Xykon than Xykon can output on his own. They were also really cavalier about their defenses, which is an overall trend in OOTS for spellcasters. Running around as a high-level wizard without protection from death effects is a bad idea. If V has death ward or some other protection from death up he mops the floor with Xykon easily (especially since Xykon doesn't have the presence of mind to use superb dispelling until Redcloak tells him too).

Generally, I get it. The Giant doesn't want to portray high-level mage combat the way it actually works in D&D - in which both sides start out enacting a giant pile of defensive magics and then they engage in dispelling race in which the loser gets one-shoted (this has actually been fairly consistent across multiple editions though the nature of the defensive spells has changed) - because that's boring to draw. Unfortunately that means significantly hobbling all casters, but especially arcane casters, throughout the comic's entire run.

[TooSoon]

They didn't drastically underestimate Xykon. Arguably, V didn't underestimate Xykon at all, but instead underestimated Redcloak's ability to get more out of Xykon than Xykon can output on his own. They were also really cavalier about their defenses, which is an overall trend in OOTS for spellcasters. Running around as a high-level wizard without protection from death effects is a bad idea. If V has death ward or some other protection from death up he mops the floor with Xykon easily (especially since Xykon doesn't have the presence of mind to use superb dispelling until Redcloak tells him too).

Generally, I get it. The Giant doesn't want to portray high-level mage combat the way it actually works in D&D - in which both sides start out enacting a giant pile of defensive magics and then they engage in dispelling race in which the loser gets one-shoted (this has actually been fairly consistent across multiple editions though the nature of the defensive spells has changed) - because that's boring to draw. Unfortunately that means significantly hobbling all casters, but especially arcane casters, throughout the comic's entire run.

It's not even about V needing optimal tactics, it's V using even mildly sensible tactics which we know V knows how to do (e.g. just cast your buffs before you port in, you're going to cast them anyway, why does it have to be in the middle of a battle? Dumb). Also the confluence of events was clearly a railroad plot, not just one thing going wrong; Oh, there are traps there! Oh, and V blows the checks. Oh, and some of V's spells inexplicably don't land, oh and Redcloak and Xykon somehow know about soul splices, etc. Xykon also didn't win alone now did he, even with the broken railroading.

Xykon is a lot weaker than people make out. He is far from invincible as currently displayed, and there are tonnes of beings who can and should be able to solo him in this world.

[woweedd]

It's not even about V needing optimal tactics, it's V using even mildly sensible tactics which we know V knows how to do (e.g. just cast your buffs before you port in, you're going to cast them anyway, why does it have to be in the middle of a battle? Dumb). Also the confluence of events was clearly a railroad plot, not just one thing going wrong; Oh, there are traps there! Oh, and V blows the checks. Oh, and some of V's spells inexplicably don't land, oh and Redcloak and Xykon somehow know about soul splices, etc. Xykon also didn't win alone now did he, even with the broken railroading.

Xykon is a lot weaker than people make out. He is far from invincible as currently displayed, and there are tonnes of beings who can and should be able to solo him in this world.

Inexplicably don’t…It’s called a Reflex save. Like with the checks, there’s no spell that makes you immune to having to roll.And of course there were traps: that’s what happens when you assault a powerful mage in his ****ing house. As for the buffs, I don’t think V was even planning to use them. They assumed Xykon would be easy pickings for their new power. Also, yeah he didn’t alone, it’s a major theme of both that arc and thr comic in general really: strength in numbers, if you go it alone, you’re liable to let your own biases trip you up. Xykon would be dead long ago I’d he didn’t have Redcloak to balance out his impulsiveness and arrogance. In other words, he takes steps to rectify flaws that he shares with V, and that’s why he wins. It’s a thing called narrative.

They didn't drastically underestimate Xykon. Arguably, V didn't underestimate Xykon at all, but instead underestimated Redcloak's ability to get more out of Xykon than Xykon can output on his own. They were also really cavalier about their defenses, which is an overall trend in OOTS for spellcasters. Running around as a high-level wizard without protection from death effects is a bad idea. If V has death ward or some other protection from death up he mops the floor with Xykon easily (especially since Xykon doesn't have the presence of mind to use superb dispelling until Redcloak tells him too).

Generally, I get it. The Giant doesn't want to portray high-level mage combat the way it actually works in D&D - in which both sides start out enacting a giant pile of defensive magics and then they engage in dispelling race in which the loser gets one-shoted (this has actually been fairly consistent across multiple editions though the nature of the defensive spells has changed) - because that's boring to draw. Unfortunately that means significantly hobbling all casters, but especially arcane casters, throughout the comic's entire run.

No, they cannot. Death Ward is a divine spell, you’d need a Wish or Limited Wish to replicate it. And Soul Spliced V couldn’t replicate it at all by the terms of the deal.

[TooSoon]

Inexplicably don’t…It’s called a Reflex save. Like with the checks, there’s no spell that makes you immune to having to roll.And of course there were traps: that’s what happens when you assault a powerful mage in his ****ing house. As for the buffs, I don’t think V was even planning to use them. They assumed Xykon would be easy pickings for their new power. Also, yeah he didn’t alone, it’s a major theme of both that arc and thr comic in general really: strength in numbers, if you go it alone, you’re liable to let your own biases trip you up. Xykon would be dead long ago I’d he didn’t have Redcloak to balance out his impulsiveness and arrogance. In other words, he takes steps to rectify flaws that he shares with V, and that’s why he wins. It’s a thing called narrative.


No, they cannot. Death Ward is a divine spell, you’d need a Wish or Limited Wish to replicate it. And Soul Spliced V couldn’t replicate it at all by the terms of the deal.

V was casting Time Stop before the trap got him. There is almost nothing you can cast in timestop that is not a buff. Yeh, you can use delayed blast fireball, but what else? As we saw in the ABD fight, the primary purpose was to buff. Since V wasn't under the gun anymore, why not buff before dropping in? It was pretty plausibility threatening. It wastes your surprise round to do things you could do before you port in there. At least when V ran off unbuffed against the dragon it was understandable; "V doesn't have a second to spare! They could be dead!" Against Xykon? Um, not so much.

[Rrmcklin]

I know next to nothing about D&D proper so I can't really comment on the respective arguments and rebuttals, but I'm curious about the actual points that TooSoon and MechaLich are actually making. That is, if they think the story would be better if it was more strict about D&D and invalidated the majority of the party, if they're just saying, from a strictly technical perspective, that's something that a group of optimized casters could do.

Because if their point(s) is just the latter I'm not seeing much of a reason to argue, and if it's the former, I find myself struggling to see how they can enjoy the story but, still, don't think there's much point to arguing about it.

[Mechalich]

I know next to nothing about D&D proper so I can't really comment on the respective arguments and rebuttals, but I'm curious about the actual points that TooSoon and MechaLich are actually making. That is, if they think the story would be better if it was more strict about D&D and invalidated the majority of the party, if they're just saying, from a strictly technical perspective, that's something that a group of optimized casters could do.

The story tries to play it both ways. It acknowledges tier variance - quite literally in comic 764 - but then tries to pretend it's not actually a thing. The record of efficacy as to the various devices employed is highly mixed at best, with the means used to neutralize V particularly ham-handed at points.

There's also the problem that the main party's most powerful characters are also its least interesting and least developed members. V is such a non-entity that they managed to sell their soul without pathos and Durkon was mostly a generic straight man for much of the comic (the comic has recently gone all-in on Durkon, an essential corrective though probably too late). This is compounded by having spellcaster villains. Xykon is weak for his level, but his level is ridiculously high and even as unoptimized as he is he's fully capable of annihilating the non-caster members of the party, while Redcloak has already shown how a simple summoning spell can tie down those non-casters as well. Victory, should it be possible, will rely on the contribution of the spellcasters far more than that of the non-casters (something that already happened in the big vampire fight - Hilyga and V contributed far more than any of the non-casters in that fight (and on the opposite side, vampiric casting abilities determined the outcome entirely).

There is no good solution. The comic is caught in the high-level 3.5 D&D trap, and it was begun early enough in the development of the editions that Rich Burlew can plausibly said to have been ignorant of how utterly unbalanced and ultimately unplayable high-level 3.5 D&D actually is. I mean, Elan was clearly created as part of a 'bards are useless' joke that was at least partly truly mechanically in 2e, but is absolutely untrue in 3.5 where Bards are higher tier than any non-caster class. The comic is in many ways heir to the misunderstandings of the entire fandom, but unlike a campaign starting today with full awareness of those issues, it's shackled to a past it cannot escape.

Because if their point(s) is just the latter I'm not seeing much of a reason to argue, and if it's the former, I find myself struggling to see how they can enjoy the story but, still, don't think there's much point to arguing about it.

It is possible to enjoy flawed things. OOTS is deeply, deeply flawed. In many ways not just this. It is perfectly reasonable to point out those flaws, and in this case the author is on the record as having noted them himself.

I would like to see better efforts to mitigate some of these flaws. For example, the non-caster members of the Order could be made more useful by procuring situationally appropriate gear. I mean this group has known they are going to have to fight a lich someday for the overwhelming majority of the strip's runtime, and yet no effort has been made to procure magical bludgeoning weapons.

[TooSoon]

The story tries to play it both ways. It acknowledges tier variance - quite literally in comic 764 - but then tries to pretend it's not actually a thing. The record of efficacy as to the various devices employed is highly mixed at best, with the means used to neutralize V particularly ham-handed at points.

There's also the problem that the main party's most powerful characters are also its least interesting and least developed members. V is such a non-entity that they managed to sell their soul without pathos and Durkon was mostly a generic straight man for much of the comic (the comic has recently gone all-in on Durkon, an essential corrective though probably too late). This is compounded by having spellcaster villains. Xykon is weak for his level, but his level is ridiculously high and even as unoptimized as he is he's fully capable of annihilating the non-caster members of the party, while Redcloak has already shown how a simple summoning spell can tie down those non-casters as well. Victory, should it be possible, will rely on the contribution of the spellcasters far more than that of the non-casters (something that already happened in the big vampire fight - Hilyga and V contributed far more than any of the non-casters in that fight (and on the opposite side, vampiric casting abilities determined the outcome entirely).

There is no good solution. The comic is caught in the high-level 3.5 D&D trap, and it was begun early enough in the development of the editions that Rich Burlew can plausibly said to have been ignorant of how utterly unbalanced and ultimately unplayable high-level 3.5 D&D actually is. I mean, Elan was clearly created as part of a 'bards are useless' joke that was at least partly truly mechanically in 2e, but is absolutely untrue in 3.5 where Bards are higher tier than any non-caster class. The comic is in many ways heir to the misunderstandings of the entire fandom, but unlike a campaign starting today with full awareness of those issues, it's shackled to a past it cannot escape.



It is possible to enjoy flawed things. OOTS is deeply, deeply flawed. In many ways not just this. It is perfectly reasonable to point out those flaws, and in this case the author is on the record as having noted them himself.

I would like to see better efforts to mitigate some of these flaws. For example, the non-caster members of the Order could be made more useful by procuring situationally appropriate gear. I mean this group has known they are going to have to fight a lich someday for the overwhelming majority of the strip's runtime, and yet no effort has been made to procure magical bludgeoning weapons.

I very much echo these sentiments, and have said much the same myself in the past. For the most part I thoroughly enjoy the comic. Every now and again there is something which is just hard for me to swallow, because of the mechanics that the story tied itself too (much that the author now regrets this, he has acknowledged the problem many times). I'm not even a D&D expert, like at all; but even I know enough to see some of these things and get mildly irritated. As a fan I don't see the problem. I'd be more worried about being a fan who cheers on the story no matter what it does than be one who offers intelligent criticism once in a while.

[Rrmcklin]

It is possible to enjoy flawed things. OOTS is deeply, deeply flawed. In many ways not just this. It is perfectly reasonable to point out those flaws, and in this case the author is on the record as having noted them himself.

I would like to see better efforts to mitigate some of these flaws. For example, the non-caster members of the Order could be made more useful by procuring situationally appropriate gear. I mean this group has known they are going to have to fight a lich someday for the overwhelming majority of the strip's runtime, and yet no effort has been made to procure magical bludgeoning weapons.

It is possible to enjoy flawed things but I struggle to see how you can get enjoyment out of something if you think one of the flaws is "most of the main characters should be irrelevant/non-existent". For me, something like that would cross the line from flawed into nigh impossible to enjoy. Which is why I asked for specifics about what your position actually is.

I very much echo these sentiments, and have said much the same myself in the past. For the most part I thoroughly enjoy the comic. Every now and again there is something which is just hard for me to swallow, because of the mechanics that the story tied itself too (much that the author now regrets this, he has acknowledged the problem many times). I'm not even a D&D expert, like at all; but even I know enough to see some of these things and get mildly irritated. As a fan I don't see the problem. I'd be more worried about being a fan who cheers on the story no matter what it does than be one who offers intelligent criticism once in a while.

I have claimed nothing even close to that, and from what I can tell no one else has either. So all other arguments and merits aside, you're attacking a strawman with that comment.

[Dion]

I might be dense, but I don’t see how the story would be better if V had conjuration, or Roy had a +5 baseball bat, or Haley was replaced with the Trap Finder 3000 adventure robot.

I mean, sure. Elan could be replaced with a boom box.That would be cool. But how do the rest of the changes help the story?

[Hurkyl]

I would like to see better efforts to mitigate some of these flaws. For example, the non-caster members of the Order could be made more useful by procuring situationally appropriate gear. I mean this group has known they are going to have to fight a lich someday for the overwhelming majority of the strip's runtime, and yet no effort has been made to procure magical bludgeoning weapons.

Possibly silly question: how readily available can we even assume such objects are? Heck, Roy even failed to obtain a mundane weapon and had to improvise a club in the woods after his sword was shattered.

That aside, it's not like they expect to fight Xykon solo and there won't be other targets people need to deal with.

[Mechalich]

It is possible to enjoy flawed things but I struggle to see how you can get enjoyment out of something if you think one of the flaws is "most of the main characters should be irrelevant/non-existent". For me, something like that would cross the line from flawed into nigh impossible to enjoy. Which is why I asked for specifics about what your position actually is.

The flaw is that, when run at full capacity, 66% of the party represents ~20% of its total output - not just in combat but across all story functions save pure comedy. The overall narrative has responded to reducing challenges to those that can be met with ~30% of the party's total output, letting the non-casters (and Elan) go 100% and finding some means to justify why the casters are barely utilizing their resources. Sometimes the means utilized works, sometimes it doesn't.

However, the important point is 'save pure comedy.' OOTS is a comedic parody and as long as it remains funny everything else is manageable. The fact that many of the fights don't work mechanically doesn't both me very much because I have no expectation for the fights to work in that fashion (honestly, Belkar's comment in the most recent strip is incredibly on point). Generally I find that when the strip tries for dramatic heft it falls fairly flat (the much discussed V vs Xykon fight being a particular low point, because V is such a flat character). This has become more of a problem as we approach the climax, which is a common fate for low-immersion action-comedy stories. At some point you have to stop quipping and actually save the world, and the result is often quite flat - the number of Marvel films with significant third act problems and bland sky-beams is substantial.

[danielxcutter]

Casters are hideously OP in 3.5e, yes.

That being said, saying that V is a flat character is like saying Mt. Everest is small.

[Rrmcklin]

I can see not liking the writing surrounding V (or any other character for that matter) but, yes, calling them flat just seems to be... completely ignoring the actual meaning of the term.

[TooSoon]

Casters are hideously OP in 3.5e, yes.

That being said, saying that V is a flat character is like saying Mt. Everest is small.

He means a flat arc character, but characters like Saitama and Goku are proof that you can be overpowered and a flat arc character and still be a compelling character.