A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #391
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    I'm actually struggling to think of a time this wasn't my actual success... Except when I'm low on noise too.



    Okay I'll go ahead and make a list too since everyone else is...

    Libro
    Rogan
    Xi

    AV
    Mr. Popo
    Supagoof
    Snowblaze

    Batcathat

    Though the last one is really me following with things. I'm still surprised that Supagoof and Snow aren't our top suspects. Especially since Mr. Popo had so adamantly been sure that Snow and Supagoof were the next two to be killed no matter what, with the possible exception of Book. I know why book is no longer on the table but still.
    If you think maybe BCH shouldn't be our top suspect, you must have a reasonablensuspicion Book Wombat based somebody other than Libro N1. If you've got a case for it, I'm all ears.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
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  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Now I feel a little worse about gac. Following along with suspecting me while also questioning it enough to look good after I flip could be wolfy. Or just being unsure, I can certainly empathize.

  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    If you think maybe BCH shouldn't be our top suspect, you must have a reasonablensuspicion Book Wombat based somebody other than Libro N1. If you've got a case for it, I'm all ears.
    I'll finish catching up tonight and either conceed the point or make a new case.

  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Xihirli: I've yet to see anything from Xihirli that couldn't be easily faked. It's all pretty casual and laidback and going with the flow. Prime real estate for a coasting wolf.
    No, youíre a coasting wolf!

    Iíve been at work and hesitant to post since I donít have access to the document Iím pulling from for the letters. But Batcathat before I forget.
    Spoiler: Quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Nobody else is gonna be right behind me, right now. Only Xihirli.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    If Xi and I agree some more, I will start to doubt my own alignment!
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Crazy Mech Question


    Is it possible to send in a night action which would be impossible with your current role? Like, a guard targets someone without providing a role to guess.
    The Prince could change the role and the new role could resolve.

    If this is possible, I would suggest the following (assuming honest claims of Emmy, Xi and Snow/Popo):
    Popo targets BCH, BCH targets me, I target one of my top townies.
    BCH will become either the Prince or the maid.
    If BCH becomes the maid, I will be protected.
    Else, he will be a Prince and use his power on me, so I will be the Maid.

    Some other role could target me, to see if I am protected or not. If I am protected, BCH was the Maid and followed the plan. If I am not protected, I can either claim my role or will be dead. One way or the other, my role will be public. If I am the Maid, BCH was following the plan and is a Prince now. If I am not the maid, BCH is either the Countess and Libro lied or, more likely, BCH didn't follow the plan. Either way, BCH should probably die. If BCH flips town, he will flip Countess. Or King, I guess. In which case either Snow or Libro will die. Oh, or he flips Guard, in which case Mr Popo either didn't want to do his part, or he was kinged (again).

    And I guess, I should stop here, since my whole plan relies on Caos answer on the question.

    Is it possible to send in a night action which would be impossible with your current role?

    So, each Night, you are allowed to submit a Night action. If the Night action fits your current Role it goes off as intended, if it does not match your Role, you will get a response similar to "Invalid number of targets" (Side note, I have a standard message for an invalid target, I just don't remember the exact wording atm).

    I hadn't thought of this possibility but technically you could submit an action for a role you don't have, hoping you will have it by the time you would act. I don't see any reason to rule against it so, *shrug* go ahead.

    To make sure the rules in the specific situation you outlined are clear: I flip a coin to decide which Prince will resolve first (in case they interact in a funny way, like this). I would do the same thing even if one of them is currently unused. I should have specified that in the Prince section, but only mentioned it in the Unused Role Example buried in a spoiler.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    Spoiler: Unused Role Example
    Show

    Both of the Princes have the same value, so the Narrator flips a coin to see whose power is used first.
    Last edited by CaoimhinTheCape; 2021-09-16 at 10:09 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Then I'm sorry to say you made a mistake somewhere along the way (or you're a wolf and I'm even more sorry ). Isn't part of your big process to ask yourself "Is there some way this suspected wolf could be town?" or something like that? Because the only thing necessary for me to be town is for BW not to use their power in the most rational way.

    I get why I look very suspect, I do, but keep the above in mind and at least look at alternate possibilities.
    Suppose they were using it in the other rational way, which is to be self protecting.

    If that were true, then they would not have died last night.

    For you to be town, Book needs to have been using their power to not guard the countess claimant, or himself, or bladescape, or me, because my powers were stolen that same night.

    And I am waiting for others to come forward with some anomalous result where they targeted someone night one and their action did not resolve.

    Unless that happens, I have no reason to suspect that Book targeted anyone but the most rational candidates, himself or the Countess.

    Since he died N2, he wasn't targeting himself.

    It wouldn't be a slam dunk case, but, your reactions under questioning by AV don't help. You essentially gave up, it seemed. I will check again.

  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    Suppose they were using it in the other rational way, which is to be self protecting.

    If that were true, then they would not have died last night.

    For you to be town, Book needs to have been using their power to not guard the countess claimant, or himself, or bladescape, or me, because my powers were stolen that same night.

    And I am waiting for others to come forward with some anomalous result where they targeted someone night one and their action did not resolve.

    Unless that happens, I have no reason to suspect that Book targeted anyone but the most rational candidates, himself or the Countess.

    Since he died N2, he wasn't targeting himself.

    It wouldn't be a slam dunk case, but, your reactions under questioning by AV don't help. You essentially gave up, it seemed. I will check again.
    FWIW, I'm not sure if it was unstated or not true this game, but typically baners either can't self-bane, or can't bane the same person two nights in a row, either of which would explain why BW was vulnerable N2 even if they didn't want to protect Libro. Additionally, you got King'd the first night, didn't you? Handmaid can't block the King, or the Princes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
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  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Yep, started as priest, targeted supagoof N1, action did not resolve, was forcibly changed to King.

    So the thing is, that means whoever started with King is mafia.

    And Supagoof started as handmaiden, apparently?

    Checking.

    For some reason I read a second handmaiden claim somewhere on skim, and we have a dead one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Watching kiddo for next 3 hours.

    Trying to post and solve but interruptions are nigh constant.

    Sigh.... I may be largely inactive the latter half of this day. After sleep is work.

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Xihirli is the one claiming to have started as a Handmaiden, iirc Supagoof is claiming to have always been a guard.

    Anyway. Here are the arguments against wolf!Batcathat:

    - I still havenít found a strong motivation for them to fakeclaim the clear on Libro
    - I donít see why theyíd kill BW given that Batcathat would always win a thunderdome between those two
    - Batcathatís play is significantly different from Afterlife, in which they were a wolf

    Whereas the requirement for town!BCH is for BW to have targeted someone other than Libro night one.

    ...meh, stuff it, Supagoof is probably a wolf regardless of Batcathatís alignment.

    Reads lists appear to be the thing now, so:

    Libro
    AV
    Mr Popo
    Rogan
    gac3
    Xihirli
    Batcathat
    Supagoof

    With wolves probably within the bottom three. Supagoof + one of Batcathat/Xihirli.

    My gut says Batcathat is town, my brain says thereís strong evidence against them, so this is the compromise Iíve reached with myself.
    Last edited by Snowblaze; 2021-09-17 at 05:37 AM.
    I have returned.

    Werewolf games won: 8
    Werewolf games lost: 6
    Games as town: 8
    Games as neutral: 2
    Games as wolf: 4
    Games narrated: 1
    Deaths: 7

    I have no clue what Iím doing, but you still shouldn't trust me.

    Extended Signature

  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    It wouldn't be a slam dunk case, but, your reactions under questioning by AV don't help. You essentially gave up, it seemed. I will check again.
    Yes and no. I absolutely intend to keep defending myself (and failing that, giving as much help as I can going forward) until I'm lynched but I accept that the case against me is very strong and I'm unlikely to convince everyone. I can and have provide alternate explanations and alternate suspects but unless I discover that someone said "By the way, I'm a wolf" somewhere in the thread, I don't think it's likely to sway the vote.

    I'm not really sure what questioning you mean. I think (a town) AV and I agree for the most part. BW not protecting Libro N1 is unlikely, I just know it must have happened. But by all means Ė if anyone has any questions I'm happy to answer them to the best of my ability.

    I've been trying to come up with some alternative to BW just chosing not to protect the Countess but nothing seems to work, even assuming pretty much everyone else lied about their claims. The one scenario I suppose is possible is that BW wasn't the handmaid to start with (and intentionally lied about it in the sig) but got turned into it N1. But even assuming I haven't overlooked something else, being turned into the very role you lied about being seems very unlikely. So I think the most likely scenario is the obvious one Ė BW didn't protect Libro. Maybe they realized it was a mistake and did so N2, only to get killed themselves instead. I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    My gut says Batcathat is town, my brain says thereís strong evidence against them, so this is the compromise Iíve reached with myself.
    That's kind of funny, that's sort of the reverse of how my brain and gut feel about you.

    Going back to Goof is an interesting move in a situation where no one would have blamed you for sticking to me. I suppose it could be the same as I accused gac of earlier Ė to look good after I flip. But I guess that voting Supagoof is the smart move for both selfish reasons and the good of the town. If he does flip wolf I was probably wrong about you, turning on your wolf buddy in this situation seems very unnecessary.
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2021-09-17 at 07:22 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    - I still havenít found a strong motivation for them to fakeclaim the clear on Libro
    - I donít see why theyíd kill BW given that Batcathat would always win a thunderdome between those two
    - Batcathatís play is significantly different from Afterlife, in which they were a wolf
    Someone who is Mafia began the game with the King role and targeted me Night One.

    That someone needs to have some explanation for what role they have and what they were doing.

    Since "what they were doing" is always a lie, and could be counterclaimed, Bat has to make up a lie that passes the sniff tests.

    No priests can counterclaim him anymore, but a Guard needs to have a CORRECT answer when they claim what the role was they targeted.

    So, since guards are the most common role, you claim that, and then claim the information you already know from the claims.

    It doesn't make any sense for a townie to do, at all, not remotely.

    And, it can't be verified.

    And, it can't be proven to be wrong, either, because anyone who could prove it wrong is dead.

    However, any townie starting handmaiden should be targeting the Countess night one, since the Countess claimed.

    And AV correctly pointed out that if this happened, then the scry as you call it, would be blocked.

    So here we have:

    1) A mafioso who absolutely needs a viable starting role claim, since they started as the King.
    2) A person who, as town, has absolutely no need to be scrying Libro, particularly since they counterclaimed me, and I unclaimed, and I am town, and they have not been counterclaimed since. There is no purpose to scrying Libro. At all. No solving purpose whatsoever.
    3) The only possible purpose is to make a claim that is not immediately known mechanically to be a lie.
    4) Yet, due to a close reading of the game, AV had Bat and Wombat as unpaired before Wombat ever died, and saw something in their signature line that said handmaiden. Then he died and flipped town, handmaiden. Who should have been protecting the Countess, period. And was not inactive.
    5) Which means BatCatHat should not have gotten the obvious scrying result of Countess on the claimed and not counterclaimed Countess.

    That is why it is not villagery, and why a wolf would feel compelled to execute this silly plan, because what's even sillier is claiming to be the King on night one, and stealing my priest powers from me.

    That's straight out.

    Can't claim Princess.
    Can't claim Countess.
    Can't claim any role you DO NOT ACTUALLY HAVE that has a confirmable result and then lie about it, like after Kinging me, claim to have Baroned someone else. Can't do that without corroborating stories.
    Can't claim to have created quicktopic chats, since that would be a lie.
    Can't claim to be one of the handmaidens here, because that would be counterclaimed if both were in play and town.

    Go down the list of viable claims for a starting Mafia King.

    Or, as you suggested, I think it was you, that I could have been hit by a Baron.

    Why Baron? That's something I didn't get.

    The king targeting me is straightforward, why did you jump to it being a Baron action.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    I thought a Handmaid might have targeted Mr Popo, but then realised he was Baroned
    How did that become your conclusion?

    - - - Updated - - -

    https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...2&postcount=50

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    Roles

    This game is a mostly open setup, where the possible roles are known to all players. Each role, value, and its power will be described below. As mentioned above, a player's Role may change during the course of the game, but not their Alignment.

    The number of roles in the game will be based on how many players join. The default number of roles will be based on a 15 player game:
    Princess - 1
    Countess - 1
    King - 1
    Prince - 2
    Handmaid - 2
    Baron - 2
    Priest - 2
    Guard - 5

    This means that one role will not be in the game at any given time. The Mafia will always be aware of what role is not in the game.

    Below are the names of the roles, in the format of "Role Name - Role Value"


    The Princess - 8

    Spoiler: Role Information - Princess
    Show
    The Princess is always Town. Whoever gets the role of Princess cannot lose the role of Princess for any reason.

    Once per game, you may publicly declare yourself Princess (by bolding words to the effect of Claim: Princess). The Narrator will confirm your role. Going forward, your vote count at the end of each Day will be set to 0, regardless of how many people voted you. After revealing yourself, the only Night action that can target you is the Mafia kill.

    Spoiler: Ability Interactions - Princess
    Show

    If the game begins while no one has the Princess and a Mafia member is forced to take a new role, then the Mafia member will not receive a new role. The target who would receive a new role and the person who forced the role change are not notified that the power did not work.


    The Countess - 7
    Spoiler: Role Information - Countess
    Show
    The Countess is always Town. Whoever gets the role of the Countess cannot lose the role of the Countess for any reason.

    At the end of each night, you will be informed of who has targeted the Princess (but not the identity of the Princess or the people who targeted them). You will have the option to change any number of abilities targeting the Princess to target you instead. The player(s) whose target is changed will not be told.

    Spoiler: Ability Interactions - Countess
    Show

    If the game begins while no one has the Countess and a Mafia member is forced to take a new role, then the Mafia member will not receive a new role. The target who would receive a new role and the person who forced the role change are not notified that the power did not work.

    The Countess does not count as targeting the Princess, so the ability will still work after the Princess has claimed.

    If multiple cards of the same type target the Princess, the Countess will be told.

    The Countess will receive the following information when someone targets the Princess.
    King - "The King has tried to swap roles with the Princess."
    Prince - "The Prince has tried to swap roles with the Princess."
    Handmaid - "The Handmaid has tried to block actions targeting the Princess. Any actions listed below will not resolve."
    Baron - "The Baron has tried to establish communication with the Princess."
    Priest - "The Priest has tried to watch the Princess."
    Guard - "The Guard has tried to guess that the Princess is the ____."
    Mafia - "The Mafia has tried to kill the Princess."


    The King - 6
    Spoiler: Role Information - King
    Show
    Each night, the player with the King may choose one other player in the game. They will switch roles so that the targeted player becomes the King and the original player gains a new Role.

    This functions as a Roleblock, as the King's ability will have already resolved before the target player gets their turn. The player who used the King does not get to benefit from their new Role until the next Night Phase.

    Spoiler: Ability Interactions - King
    Show

    If the King targets the player with the Princess or the Countess, the King will receive the following feedback "You cannot trade roles with your target."


    The Prince - 5
    Spoiler: Role Information - Prince
    Show
    Each night, choose one player (you may choose yourself). That player discards their role and takes the unused role.

    Spoiler: Ability Interactions - Prince
    Show

    If the Prince targets the player with the Princess or the Countess, the Prince will not receive any feedback.
    If the Prince targets a player with the King or Prince, the target will discard their Role and possibly use their new ability if there is a valid target on that Role's turn.


    The Handmaid - 4
    Spoiler: Role Information - Handmaid
    Show
    Each night, choose one player (you may choose yourself). No further actions against the target resolve.

    Spoiler: Ability Interactions - Handmaid
    Show

    If both Handmaids target the same player, no further actions will resolve against the target as if only one player targeted them.
    If the Baron targets a player that has been targeted by the Handmaid, they will receive a result of "Target invalid, no communication established."
    If the Priest targets a player that has been targeted by the Handmaid, they will receive a result of "Target invalid".
    If the Guard targets a player that has been targeted by the Handmaid, they will receive a result of "Target invalid".
    If the Mafia targets a player that has been targeted by the Handmaid, they will not receive feedback but their target will not die.


    The Baron - 3
    Spoiler: Role Information - Baron
    Show
    Each night, you choose two different players (you may choose yourself). A private communication will be set up between them.

    Spoiler: Ability Interactions - Baron
    Show

    If one target was blocked by the Handmaid's ability, you will receive a result of, "Target invalid, no communication established."

    If someone starts the Night as the Baron but has their role switched, they will receive the message "Invalid number of targets."
    If someone targets one player but has their role switched to the Baron, they will receive the message "Invalid number of targets."


    The Priest - 2
    Spoiler: Role Information - Priest
    Show
    Each night, choose a player (you may choose yourself). You will learn the name of the player they targeted.

    Spoiler: Ability Interactions - Priest
    Show

    The Priest will learn everyone that their target has targeted. They may receive the following results:
    "Your target did not target anyone."
    "Your target targeted _____."
    "Your target targeted _____ and ____."
    "Your target targeted _____, ____, and ____."

    If the Priest targets a player that has been targeted by the Handmaid, they will receive a result of "Target invalid".


    The Guard - 1
    Spoiler: Role Information - Guard
    Show
    Each night, choose one player and guess what their role is. You will be told if you are correct or not.

    Spoiler: Ability Interactions - Guard
    Show

    If the Guard targets a player that has been targeted by the Handmaid, they will receive a result of "Target invalid".

    The Guard will receive one of two results:
    "Your target is the ____."
    "Your target is NOT the ____."

    This action occurs after roles are swapped by the King/Prince so the Guard will receive information about the new role.

    You can use this ability only to check roles, not alignment.



    Night Actions will resolve in the following order:
    King > Prince > Handmaid > Baron > Priest > Guard > Mafia Kill

    Before any of those actions resolves, The Countess will use their ability to change targets.

    Spoiler: Ability Interactions - Unused Role Example
    Show

    At the start of the game, there is a Guard who is unused.
    On Night 1, Alice (The Prince) forces Bob (The Baron) to take a new role. Carol (The Prince) chooses herself to take a new role.

    Both of the Princes have the same value, so the Narrator flips a coin to see whose power is used first. After the coin flip, Carol's ability resolves first.

    Carol's power resolves on Carol. Carol discards her card (The Prince) and receives the unused card (The Guard).
    Alice's power resolved on Bob. Bob discards his card (The Baron) and receives the unused card (The Prince).

    The Mafia receives the following feedback.
    "At night start, the unused role was The Guard. During the night, The Guard was assigned to a player and replaced by The Prince. Also, The Prince was assigned to a player and replaced by The Baron. The current unused role is the Baron."
    Because I am so very tired of having to refer back to this post when all the information is buried deep inside it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Okay.

    I confused Baron and Prince.

    You were referring to gac using the baron's comms power on me. Got it.

    I thought you had TMI that I had been hit with a (Prince) power rather than directly Kinged from the King power.

  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    I thought you had TMI that I had been hit with a (Prince) power rather than directly Kinged from the King power.
    That also wouldn't actually make sense given your own information. If you were targeted by a Prince N1 while you were the Priest, and the Prince gave you the King role, the Priest role picks a single target, and the King role picks a single target, so your action of "I target [player]" would still have succeeded. You would've gotten feedback that looks likething like.

    "You've been crowned King. You targeted bladescape in the night. You have swapped powers with bladescape, making them King and you Priest."

    That's not what happened. You became King, and you got no feedback on your Priest power. That only happens if you got King'd, not Prince'd into being King.


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  13. - Top - End - #403
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    2) A person who, as town, has absolutely no need to be scrying Libro, particularly since they counterclaimed me, and I unclaimed, and I am town, and they have not been counterclaimed since. There is no purpose to scrying Libro. At all. No solving purpose whatsoever.
    As I said, the reason I targeted Libro was partly for the (probably very slight) chance that the claim was false for some reason but primarily because I couldn't think of a better use for it, since its use is so limited.

    The case against me is basically based on both BW and myself using our powers in an optimal fashion N1. Which is not an unreasonable assumption to make but it is hardly the only alternative.

  14. - Top - End - #404
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    In case everyone is wondering why I seem to have a fairly solid grasp of how to play the game of mafia, but I am badly misunderstanding the roles in this game:

    Spoiler
    Show
    1) Most of the roles in this game are garbage and low or negative utility for town.
    2) The roles specifically prevent solve by spreadsheet a lot because there is missing information, and the setup is designed against an early mass claim being a good idea because roles can be stolen by the mafia, changed, or forced to be discarded, and the mafia are given what amounts to a fake claim because they know a specific role is not in the game so it is safe to claim. For example, I think there shouldn't be two handmaidens. And I assumed that Goof was claiming handmaiden when he said he could "guard" the princess. Which is wrong, that's not what a Guard does. The roles that could ever guard the princess are the Countess and the handmaidens, and giving town all three of those roles is overpowered.
    3) The mechanics are so overly complicated and convoluted precisely because you have to prevent an instant spreadsheet solve by mass claim or by claimed roles being used over multiple nights, and even includes a coinflip mechanic and other garbage like role value and rank and all sorts of this other gobbeltygook that I took one look at the roles in the setup and concluded that their value is essentially only in their claim and confirmable power, such as someone claiming to be a baron and using the baron power N1.

    So I have had the mechanics, the roles, their precise name, their rank, their value, their order of resolution, what gets coinflipped, all of that? On standby. It's in the OP, and players who play that way, more power to em, I am not one of them. (Like Lightfoot, in return of the Clowns, who doggedly tracked claims and claimed actions publicly all game long to absolutely zero fruitful effect until it was final 7 and miraculously, there was exactly enough information claimed that it exactly narrowed the possible scum teams down to just the one correct one.)

    That almost NEVER happens, and if it does, it happens way too late for a player like ME to ever take advantage of it because I gotta solve by cold read and kill the mafiosi TODAY, not tomorrow, and I am usually never alive tomorrow.

    I have also brute force solved spreadsheet style games and gotten boned by there being godfathers, ninjas, or townies dying without their roles being revealed.

    So I absolutely never, at any point in my entire process, ever ever ever ever began to care at all about the roles.

    I only care about behavior, and if someone claims that the information based around the roles and claims leads to a solve, then and only then, do I look at it.

    And then, I compare it to what I think my cold reads currently are, and if its my top top top scums claiming my cold read completely clear townies are guilty, I probably don't believe them.

    Not unless it's like, the final wolf left alive, and it's way before LYLO, and despite being universally scum read, they claim to have found the last wolf, and therefore, hit there, and if wrong, kill self.

    Then I care.

    I have not cared at all, except in the following ways:

    The Countess protects the Innocent Child, the Princess, who is an Innocent Child role. Basically, a singular Mason.

    That's a role I understand and care about at all.

    The countess itself? Just because it keeps the innocent child alive, is otherwise worthless, except it is also a semi innocent child role, because it should be always town and can be independently corroborated.

    Those roles I cared about.

    Making private threads? Don't care. proves you did that, dont even know if you cant kill at the same time. Useless without cops, mostly worthless, but for the severely mechanically inclined among us, you can probably link together the very top read townies and hope they are all town and privately share info that way, but even so.

    Right now? All of town's important roles have died or been outed. A mass claim helps town more than scums.

    I suggested last night in gac's chat with me that if we flipped a scum today, a second scum, that everyone should mass claim tonight. There is no point in not having literally everyone not claim their starting role, all their actions, and all possible information en masse tonight with 2 dead wolves in 3 attempts.

    It is straight up dumb not to try to brute force the game that way after 2 dead wolves and our naughty bits that matter already exposed anyway.

    But before now, it was protect the identity of the Princess time and try to get her deep, and thus, everyone shaddap about their roles for crying out loud, especially if you're a handmaiden. Which is why people coming into the thread and saying "I'm a role that protects the princess!" after finding zero townies and zero wolves, in a game where the mafia can kill you, block you, or steal your role, or discard your powers, tells me you have a wolfy mindset.

    Wolfy or incredibly not thinking about how it impacts the game or your team to claim.

    So people going "I used my power in a non confirmable way on night one, and am claiming right now for no reason" is wolfy.

    Meaning, Emmy claiming to use her power to turn herself into a Guard instead of confirming her own location with someone, is wolfy, not villagery.

    And she was a wolf.

    Meaning, Goof coming in here and saying "I am a role that guards the princess" read to me like a handmaiden claim, and it's super wolfy to come in here and claim a handmaiden when you weren't close to being a top wagon at the time, and doing it after the other handmaiden died is poking for counterclaims, or it means you are a mafia and the game host gave you a handmaiden role that can be used offensively by the mafia team to prevent town actions from resolving.

    Now I see Goof is claiming Guard, rather than handmaiden, and Xi is claiming to have started with that role.

    Xi is someone I have not looked at closely enough, but on casual pass throughs and a quick iso looked fine.

    People going "I am a Guard, and I scried a role that town has 1 of, who claimed, and was not counterclaimed, and I did that instead of telling everyone something we don't already know" is also wolfy.

    Like, all of those claims are wolfy.

    Except I am apparently misunderstanding Goof's claim, he is saying he is a Guard, which does not guard the princess at all, but worded it as if it suggested so.

    None of those claims are in any way helpful for town and none of the usages of the roles were in any way helpful for town, but something tells me that all three of these role claims should not all be scum, even though two of them probably are, and one of them definitely was.


    But I never care about the spreadsheet solve. I explicitly laid out in my guidebook why I avoid wasting my time on spreadsheet solves especially in a game where there's multiple roleblocker like powers and powers can be forcibly removed or stolen.

    Spoiler
    Show
    I only claimed Priest truthfully because that is the role I was given by the game host and I didn't care about that role in the slightest, but I had to claim my truthful role after Libro full claimed Countess and accused me.

    It's not okay to lie there. If I had a different role, it would have been safer for me to work contrary to Blaze's day one idea to out the Countess immediately. But I decided to go that route due to the in thread circumstances, regardless of my actual role, which wasn't countess, handmaiden, or princess, so it was a low value role to me in terms of the solve.


    I have looked at the roles in closer detail exactly when it came up in the game as an important point, and otherwise not bothered to care about any of them, except to understand the Princess and Countess are lock town and have powers that are legit useful, and the handmaiden is also protective, and that there are blockers and role stealers and incomplete information.

    That's the full extent to how much I care about that, because I typically play in games where the town powers are few and far between and we always have to solve first, rather than futz around with "I'm a role that definitely shouldn't claim day one, let me do it anyway because we are in the habit of beginning with claiming as opposed to solving!"

    Spoiler
    Show
    I just hate that, it's antithetical to good vanilla town play, and weakens your ability to solve the game by cold read because you are relying on game host provided design and information to corner the scums for you.

    And when it doesn't, and all you do is hand wolves extra data, why did you do any of it? Delayed solving and got your powers outed faster.

    You never start with the claims. It's bogus. When I said "Lets all mass claim" on day one, when I claimed Countess, that was the biggest lie I have told in years. There's no way I would ever be in favor of that for real.

    I said that precisely because I have ZERO reason to claim Countess otherwise, and it's silly to do so unless I was playing for a d1 mass claim strategy which I find revolting under all circumstances.

    Even when it is the correct move, like this years' champs series, and it busts the game in town's favor, I still find it revoltinglynot fun. Claiming to be actually in favor of that idea was a howler that is severely out of character for me, and then I immediately "thought about it and decided" it wasn't a very good idea after all and we should stop with my claim and that no one should claim besides me and definitely I shouldnt be counterclaimed, which is what my real thoughts on the matter were.


    This can be a matter of taste and a glaring example of where I am not good at the game, as opposed to examples where I am.

    Spoiler
    Show
    I am also terrible at turbos which are ultra fast games that are over in an hour, and terrible at mashes which are ultra massive games with like 70 players and almost all of them are power roles and the days are 12 hours long so I never play these games anymore.

    Those types of games do not appeal because they are based on either making wild uneducated guesses (turbos) or having ultra great instincts (turbos) or playing by power role and spreadsheets and claims (mashes).

    I hate those games and dont play them anymore, and I dont play all power role games for similar reasons, usually.


    And I said all of this way before this game began. So it's just how I am with these games.

    Even now, when I think a mass claim should be the correctmost move, especially with another dead wolf incoming soon, I still cannot be bothered to collect all the role claims and begin the sudoku puzzle of piecing the game together by mechanics and claims.

    Someone else will always have to do that, and then, I will double check them to see if I spot an easily spotted lie.

    Otherwise I am straight up disinterested in the powers, other than for how people are either confirmed innocent by them, or wolfy for not using their power in a pro town enough manner.

    If I can spot that the usage is probably wrong, it is probably wrong and wolfy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    That also wouldn't actually make sense given your own information. If you were targeted by a Prince N1 while you were the Priest, and the Prince gave you the King role, the Priest role picks a single target, and the King role picks a single target, so your action of "I target [player]" would still have succeeded. You would've gotten feedback that looks likething like.

    "You've been crowned King. You targeted bladescape in the night. You have swapped powers with bladescape, making them King and you Priest."

    That's not what happened. You became King, and you got no feedback on your Priest power. That only happens if you got King'd, not Prince'd into being King.
    None of this ever gets into my brain this game unless it is carefully explained to me like I am five.

    I defer to everyone here as the expert. I am specifically unsuited to approaching the game this way, due to how convoluted it is.

    I hate basic actual sudoku puzzles because I have a severe amount of aphantasia.

    I literally cannot "see" anything in my head when I close my eyes. I cannot see anything when I daydream, it is purely thoughts and emotions.

    There are literally no images in my head except through my literal eyes.

    I cannot complete anything except the most basic of sudoku puzzles with the numbers filled in almost completely.

    Not without an eraser, and systematically marking down all the possible numbers for each box brute force style. Which I cant fit with an actual pencil and paper. So I hate those danged puzzles.

    I know what the procedure is for solving them. I know how to solve them. If I sat there long enough, I could solve the very hardest ones.

    I just hate it so very, very, very much. Because it takes me way longer than anyone else, because, just like a chess board, I cannot picture what the board looks like a move or two ahead in my brain.

    I know when the move is good by experience and pattern recognition, not because I can see the position 3 moves ahead in my head and evaluate it like I am looking at a static image. Real chess professionals can do that.

    I can't do anything with the roles this game except the most basic of solving logic. It's incomprehensible to me and very unfamiliar to me.

    Spoiler
    Show
    Not that it isnt a nice change of pace and not that the design doesnt look artful and well designed from the layman's perspective.

    But it's a bit like a very powerful roller coaster to someone with motion sickness. I can appreciate others like it, and more power to them. Have fun on that ride.

    This is the one ride at the amusement park I observe mostly from the sidelines, or I walk up to the entrance with you and turn back.
    Last edited by Mr Popo; 2021-09-17 at 02:32 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #405
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    Right now? All of town's important roles have died or been outed. A mass claim helps town more than scums.
    ...you're right.

    Spoiler: Claims
    Show
    These are the remaining players and roles. Two of them are scum, but not necessarily lies.

    AvatarVecna Batcathat gac3 Libro Mr Popo Rogan Snowblaze Supagoof Xihirli Unused Unused
    Countess ---- ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    King ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ---- ----
    Prince ---- ---- ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Prince ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Handmaid ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Baron ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Baron ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ----
    Priest ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Guard ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Guard ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ----
    Guard ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----



    ...you're right. That chart is too full. Scum knows if their own claims are fake, they know which roles have been cycling through the two unused slots, and if townies are fakeclaiming, scum probably has enough info to know there's a lie in the web of claims, and they have enough info to track it down. They either already know or they find out tonight, so no point hiding it. I'm the Priest, and I've never not been the Priest, but I don't have a way to prove that.

    I'll write things up from my perspective and y'all can decide if it's worth a thunderdome.


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  16. - Top - End - #406
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Xihirli never claimed Baron, she claimed I turned her into a guard. Someone did QT us last night, though.

    Also. You're claiming Priest. Directly counterclaiming Mr Popo.

    screams into the abyss
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  17. - Top - End - #407
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    Xihirli never claimed Baron, she claimed I turned her into a guard. Someone did QT us last night, though.

    Also. You're claiming Priest. Directly counterclaiming Mr Popo.

    screams into the abyss
    You implied she was baron by mentioning it. Unless you want to suggest that any baron on either team made a QT that didn't involve themselves?

    Also, I wanna be very clear that I am not counterclaiming Mr Popo. We are both town.


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  18. - Top - End - #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    You implied she was baron by mentioning it. Unless you want to suggest that any baron on either team made a QT that didn't involve themselves?

    Also, I wanna be very clear that I am not counterclaiming Mr Popo. We are both town.
    Xihirli is claiming that she was turned into a guard night one. If this claim is true, she can't have created a QT night two. So baron!Xihirli implies she fakeclaimed guard for ??? reason.

    ...I hate mechanics.
    I have returned.

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  19. - Top - End - #409
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    Xihirli is claiming that she was turned into a guard night one. If this claim is true, she can't have created a QT night two. So baron!Xihirli implies she fakeclaimed guard for ??? reason.

    ...I hate mechanics.
    Wait, Xihirli is claiming to not be Baron? Either Xihirli is lying, or a Baron linked Snow and Xihirli despite being neither. You could also be lying, but Popo king'd you so that would require the scumteam to be you and Popo to frame Xihirli for some reason? I agree with "I hate mechanics".


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  20. - Top - End - #410
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    Claims so far

    Libro claims to be the Countess.

    Batcathat claims to be a Guard, and to have successfully confirmed Libro's role night one.

    Xihirli claims to have started as a Handmaid (I think she implied targeting Libro night one) but been turned into a Guard night one.

    AvatarVecna claims to have been a Priest all game, and to not be counterclaiming Mr Popo.
    Mr Popo claims to have started as a Priest, targeted Supagoof night one but been kinged, and kinged Snowblaze night two, becoming a Prince. He also claims gac3 is a Baron who targeted him night one.

    Supagoof claims to be a guard, and to have targeted gac3 night two and successfully guessed his role.

    Snowblaze claims to have started as a Prince, targeted Xihirli night one and attempted to target Batcathat night two but was kinged. She also claims a QT between her and Xihirli was established night two.

    Known information
    JeenLeen was a Guard at the start of the game.
    bladescape was a Priest at the end of night one.
    EmmyNecromancer was a Guard at the end of night one.
    Book Wombat was a Handmaid from the start of the game until his death.
    rogue_alchemist was the Princess at the end of night two.

    Think that's everything, let me know if there are errors or I've missed something.
    Last edited by Snowblaze; 2021-09-17 at 05:07 AM.
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  21. - Top - End - #411
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Pre-game, I get the Priest card. I'm not fond of playing watcher, because I tend to die early, and I would've preferred to be Baron and get a few private chat shenanigans going, but whatever, gotta deal with the cards I'm dealt. I'm gone for most of D1 and come in to be a bit solvy while there's still daylight. A player I'm unfamiliar with (Mr Popo) seems to be very good at the game, in a way I'm used to being on the other side of. He's townreading me based on "not flailing when a few people are voting me", so I suspect pocketing a little bit...but because he's so good, I'd have to be stupid not to suspect him at least a little bit regardless of what's going on, so that goes on a backburner.

    N1, we get a little ways through and Mr Popo is claiming that he wants to kill an inactive D2, preferably Emmy because "she should've been here". I go look at the activity of the two inactives, and sure enough, rogue_alchemist hadn't bee on the forum in days, while Emmy had been on earlier in the night phase. Up until now, I wasn't really sure who to Priest, and had been waffling between bladescape, Xihirli, and Popo (players I'd be particularly worried about because of my difficulty in reading them). But this gave me something substantial to test:

    If Emmy was actually inactive, then Priesting her wouldn't come up with any information. She's probably just having a rough time with life again, so I could try and dissuade the wagon the next day. I expect to die early anyway, and we've got a backup watcher, so I might even survive N2 if I claim D2 to protect Emmy. On the other hand, if she uses a power and doesn't speak up N1 or D2, Popo and I pushing the wagon should be enough to get her lynched because our momentum is too strong for most players. And if the usual nonsense of "why are you lynching an inactive, she hasn't even done anything, stop wasting the lynch on somebody who's gonna end up being town and actually hunt for wolves" comes up, I can respond with "actually, I'm town watcher, and I saw Emmy use her power last night". Plus, I do kinda suspect her of being scum for that weirdness in her activity, so if it turns out she targeted (for example) Xihirli, and then when we kill her she flips Scum!Guard, I know that Xihirli is probably innocent because scumteam was spending a role-scry on her from a player nobody should've known was in the game at that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaoimhinTheCape View Post
    bladescape and Priest Helenus, Town, were poisoned.
    This is the post that killed my plans to claim D2 if it became necessary to get Emmy checked. I'm now the only remaining town watcher in a game that has no seers. There's no way in hell I'm claiming unless my life is on the line or I feel not claiming would be handing scum victory somehow. I will explain why I think not claiming today would've been a mistake.

    I saw Emmy target target herself. Princess and Countess don't have targeting powers. King would target one person, so that could be it. Prince could be it . Handmaid couldn't be it - Handmaid only targets one person, sure, but then my Priest power wouldn't have worked. Baron couldn't be it, they target two people. Priest couldn't be it - Priest only targets one person, sure, but both priests are accounted for. Guard could be it. So our options are that Emmy is the King, Prince, or Guard who self-targeted N1 for some reason. My best guess at the time: King and Guard make no sense for anybody to target themselves with under basically any circumstances, but I could see somebody with Prince using the power on themselves to get a different power...especially if they know what powers are available in the unused pile. I take this as further implication that Emmy is on scumteam.

    Of course, at this point I can do jack all with that information except push for people to lynch Emmy, since I can't share any of this. I join her wagon and hope for the best.

    ...the best did not occur.

    Oh, Popo voted emmy in the next post, sure, and our endorsement of the wagon in the night and at SoD made it the main wagon pretty early, and Emmy died and flipped scum. But this is the one that made game a nightmare for me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    I have baby in arm

    typing with mouse + onscreen keyboard

    i began game as priest

    n1 i was changed to king

    i have a night chat with someone villagery, they can confirm

    but no need

    keep princess hidden and safe

    countess keeps her safe when outed

    secrecy keeps her safe when countess dies

    sit back, remain calm

    analyse day one + n1

    i believe in you

    - - - Updated - - -

    my target n1 was supagoof

    action doesnt resolve because i was forcibly kinged

    - - - Updated - - -



    game only has 2 priests max

    blades priest at game start
    popo priest at game start
    i claimed d1


    there will be no counterclaims
    In my head, there are two possible situations that actually occurred:

    1) Popo is telling the full truth, and what happened is that bladescape started as town!king, king'd Popo in the night, and got killed...flipping as priest. Popo freaks out and assumes the mafia kill would've prevented the King power from being used (which isn't how the action resolution rules work).

    2) Popo is lying. Popo is scum, and knows scum didn't have King role and doesn't have Priest role, so Popo speaks up and says "whoever stole Priest from me must be scum". This is scum!Popo fishing for the final town!priest to counterclaim, the same way Popo somehow got the countess to counterclaim D1 and somehow didn't get lynched for it.

    ...I assumed Popo knew how the action resolution stuff worked, because he was such a good player, and that meant he was scum. But I was still convinced Emmy was scum and couldn't fathom why he would bus her. Either I was wrong about Popo, or Popo was one crazy wolf...and Popo seemed pretty crazy.

    I keep putting work in for ISOs during D2/N2/D3. I put off the Popo ISO on purpose. I started the ISO on D3 partially hoping one of us would die and resolve it, and partially because I wanted to have a rock-solid case against him, otherwise he'll twist stuff around on me and scum would get town to lynch their last watcher. And I didn't claim, because there were few enough claims and dead bodies and scum players that there's no way they knew where I was. I just kept quiet, kept my suspicions of Popo on the backburner, and kept ISOing everybody, hoping I could figure out enough to pin him.

    When I finally ISO Popo, I go in looking for reasons to scumread him. I find townie explanations and scum explanations for just about everything. I stop the ISO on the post I linked above, giving a theoretical explanation for how maybe the remaining Priest isn't scum because I still really don't wanna claim publicly, and then I end the ISO, claiming I got too tired of it to continue. It seems that Popo might've been right about nobody reading my ISOs, though, because nobody asks Popo why he didn't consider that possibility - I know that if I ask him directly, it might effectively be outing myself to scumteam if I harped on that one point, while it's possible that most of town would completely miss the real reason I'm asking the question.

    ...but I can't bring myself to scumread Popo. I know how to play wolf well enough, and bussing Emmy makes no sense. Regardless of how many scum there are, it makes no sense to intentionally lynch your own inactive player instead of letting them autolynch, even if you get towncred for doing so (and Popo tried to insist that nobody should get towncred for Emmy's flip, since her getting lynched was a foregone conclusion before the night is over).

    And then Popo says that mass-claiming might make sense here, and it gives me pause. The princess is dead, the countess is outed, and there's been a whole bunch of claims. Scum knows if there's a lie in the web of claims (even if they're not 100% sure on where the lies are), they know what the unused roles were all game (and Cao confirmed that Prince targets have their old power go to the unused pile again), and scum has had two nights of a couple powers to work with. Scum might be fakeclaiming, but they know what their own roles are. How much could they have put together?

    ...so I make the chart, and there's not a lot of holes in it. There's almost certainly enough claims even just D2 that scum could put together a mostly complete map of who's who on D2. Book Wombat was killed either because they saw the BW claim (or maybe they just saw me essentially out BW with my vague accusation in the night), or just because scum was firing into the pool of unknowns. Maybe they knew I was priest, maybe they didn't. But why am I not dead? Why isn't Popo dead? I'm about 95% sure Popo is town at this point, so why is scumteam letting us both live?

    ...so that we tunnel each other. The further Popo and I get in the game together, the more likely it is Popo maths out the claims, figures out who's lying, and realizes I'm the Priest. And if I don't explain myself, Popo will hound me to the ends of the earth and distrust everything I've ever said and get me mislynched. And because of that post up there, they had to know that Popo post would sound to me like scum!Popo trying to bait me into a counterclaim. Scum left two dangerous players alive, because they got lucky: bladescape was the only person who super-distrusted Popo coming out of D1, and so bladescape roleblocked Popo. Scum saw Popo set himself against the remaining priest, knew the priest wasn't among the scum, and decided to leave Popo alive. Maybe they knew I was Priest N1 (lucky guard power?) or maybe they've just gained enough clues to piece it together, or maybe they just saw me soft-claim that BW was handmaid and decided baner takes precedent over me.

    But at this point, with everything that's out here right now, I can't not claim. This argument and potential mislynch can't happen on LYLO; if it's going to happen, it needs to happen when we can afford for it to happen.


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  22. - Top - End - #412
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    ...you're right.

    Spoiler: Claims
    Show
    These are the remaining players and roles. Two of them are scum, but not necessarily lies.

    AvatarVecna Batcathat gac3 Libro Mr Popo Rogan Snowblaze Supagoof Xihirli Unused Unused
    Countess ---- ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    King ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ---- ----
    Prince ---- ---- ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Prince ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Handmaid ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Baron ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Baron ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ----
    Priest ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Guard ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
    Guard ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- CLAIM ---- ---- ----
    Guard ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----



    ...you're right. That chart is too full. Scum knows if their own claims are fake, they know which roles have been cycling through the two unused slots, and if townies are fakeclaiming, scum probably has enough info to know there's a lie in the web of claims, and they have enough info to track it down. They either already know or they find out tonight, so no point hiding it. I'm the Priest, and I've never not been the Priest, but I don't have a way to prove that.

    I'll write things up from my perspective and y'all can decide if it's worth a thunderdome.
    About the chart, we also have Emmy who claimed prince turned guard and Xi claiming maid turned guard.
    So, assuming they are telling the truth, the discarded cards are prince and maid.

    I know somebody isn't telling the whole truth. That's Xi. It would make more sense for a Baron to connect someone with himself. And Xi can't be a guard, since I am a guard. But no useful info from my side. Popo wasn't the Priest at end of night 1. But he claimed to have been kinged before I could ask about this, so no new info.
    Snow is not the Baron at the end of n2. That's no new info either.

    So, right now we have one guard claim more than possible, two Priests claims for day 1, with no way to clear either. (At least, I can't see such a way).

    The double Priest claim is more concerning, since Mr Popo and AV are on the top of many read lists and the activity list.

    The Guard claims are not that open and shut. Is there anybody who would like to withdraw a claim and give their reasoning?


    About my crazy plan, I am not sure how Caos clarification about the coin flip would influence things and at this point, I think pouring too much energy into it would only be a distraction.
    If the plan is still possible in the night, I can think about it again.

    Side note: Oh boy... everybody going into the day, thinking it would be clear cut? Wrong... so wrong.
    Spoiler: I'm a seer
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    All the discussion of how weird the half-hour start is seems weirdly prescient, in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Can I use my prediction of the half an hour being used to set up Factional chats as proof I am the Seer?
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions


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  23. - Top - End - #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    About the chart, we also have Emmy who claimed prince turned guard and Xi claiming maid turned guard.
    So, assuming they are telling the truth, the discarded cards are prince and maid.

    I know somebody isn't telling the whole truth. That's Xi. It would make more sense for a Baron to connect someone with himself. And Xi can't be a guard, since I am a guard.
    There are five guards. Two guard claims are confirmed via death (JeenLeen and Emmy, at least at time of death), and now we have Xihirli, Rogan, Batcathat, and Supagoof claiming guard as well. One of these people is necessarily lying, but that doesn't mean it has to be Xihirli. Batcathat flips tonight as either scum!guard or scum!non-guard. If she flips scum!guard, one of Xihirli/Rogan/Supagoof is lying about being a guard. If she flips scum!non-guard, then Xihirli/Rogan/Supagoof aren't lying about their roles.

    The double Priest claim is more concerning, since Mr Popo and AV are on the top of many read lists and the activity list.
    I'll once again clarify that I'm not counterclaiming Popo. From my perspective, everything makes sense: bladescape started as king, king'd Popo because Popo is shifty as hell and bladescape knows how shifty Popo can be, bladescape dies as Priest because of the King switch, and Popo swears revenge on the remaining priest. Town!Popo only swears revenge if he doesn't realize the possibility that bladescape was king, and it's possible he thought mafia kill would interrupt king power when it can't. I'm stuck unable to claim without telling scumteam where the last watcher is and triggering Popo into myslynching me before I can give literally any useful information.

    Speaking of "useful information", I said I had no way to prove that I'm Priest at all, let alone prove that I was priest N1. Well on N2, I targeted gac3, and gac3 targeted gac3 and AvatarVecna...which I would've learned regardless of being Priest because I'm the one the QT was made with and gac3 was later outed as Baron.


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  24. - Top - End - #414
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Skimming through... It appears my role has been outed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    You implied she was baron by mentioning it. Unless you want to suggest that any baron on either team made a QT that didn't involve themselves?

    Also, I wanna be very clear that I am not counterclaiming Mr Popo. We are both town.
    Until Mr. Popo told me that they were going to die as if it was gospel truth, I wasn't going to use my power on me last night.

  25. - Top - End - #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Skimming through... It appears my role has been outed.
    I'm a little sorry about that, but I'm about 70% sure scumteam already knows who everybody is; at most, they were going to figure out everything tonight, maybe tomorrow morning after the NK flip. Popo was right, massclaiming was the answer in this situation, so I went ahead.

    (I also kinda vaguely recalled that Popo had referred to you as Baron, but looking back, I'm not sure why? I can't find it anywhere, so yeah I outed you but I also kinda thought you were already outed, so even though outing people is the good move right now, that's definitely at least a little bit my bad. >.<)

    Until Mr. Popo told me that they were going to die as if it was gospel truth, I wasn't going to use my power on me last night.
    Why not? The whole point of the power is a slow build-up of a private network, and the only person you can trust is yourself by default. You were going to make a QT between two townies, neither of whom made it or knows who made it? All that's gonna do is put them at each other's throats.


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    It's always AvatarVecna time.

  26. - Top - End - #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    Claims so far

    Libro claims to be the Countess.

    Batcathat claims to be a Guard, and to have successfully confirmed Libro's role night one.

    Xihirli claims to have started as a Handmaid (I think she implied targeting Libro night one) but been turned into a Guard night one.

    AvatarVecna claims to have been a Priest all game, and to not be counterclaiming Mr Popo.
    Mr Popo claims to have started as a Priest, targeted Supagoof night one but been kinged, and kinged Snowblaze night two, becoming a Prince. He also claims gac3 is a Baron who targeted him night one.

    Supagoof claims to be a guard, and to have targeted gac3 night two and successfully guessed his role.

    Snowblaze claims to have started as a Prince, targeted Xihirli night one and attempted to target Batcathat night two but was kinged. She also claims a QT between her and Xihirli was established night two.

    Known information
    JeenLeen was a Guard at the start of the game.
    bladescape was a Prince at the end of night one.
    EmmyNecromancer was a Guard at the end of night one.
    Book Wombat was a Handmaid from the start of the game until his death.
    rogue_alchemist was the Princess at the end of night two.

    Think that's everything, let me know if there are errors or I've missed something.
    Blades was a Priest, not a Prince.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    In my head, there are two possible situations that actually occurred:

    1) Popo is telling the full truth, and what happened is that bladescape started as town!king, king'd Popo in the night, and got killed...flipping as priest. Popo freaks out and assumes the mafia kill would've prevented the King power from being used (which isn't how the action resolution rules work).



    But at this point, with everything that's out here right now, I can't not claim. This argument and potential mislynch can't happen on LYLO; if it's going to happen, it needs to happen when we can afford for it to happen.
    I think this post is a beautiful illustration of the differences between AV and me. I propose a crazy plan based on mechanics. A plan for further actions, that will generate new info and might save someone from night kill.
    AV on the other hand uses her knowledge of the rules to solve, going backwards AND including motives and reads.

    And if I try to read her own motives? I am running in circles. Wolf!AV would not want to kill Popo, regardless of his Alignment. A Bus would be too risky. A Town killed would make AV the primary target for the next lynch.
    Town!AV would want Wolf!Popo arrested ASAP. But Town!AV would not know Popo is a Wolf. She might have reasons to suspect this (and she laid them all out in her ISO) but she came to a different conclusion. And Town!AVs reasons for wanting Town!Popo alive are even more important. A misslynch here would spell doom for AV and, by proxy, the rest of town.

    I think we can agree that there is no way Popo and AV are w/w? (Okay, they might be bored in this case and want to add a challenge, but come on... they would not be that cruel, would they? )

    Is there a volunteer for going back to a blades ISO to check for a sign he might be the king or intending to target Popo?
    Spoiler: I'm a seer
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    All the discussion of how weird the half-hour start is seems weirdly prescient, in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Can I use my prediction of the half an hour being used to set up Factional chats as proof I am the Seer?
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions


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  27. - Top - End - #417
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Is there a volunteer for going back to a blades ISO to check for a sign he might be the king or intending to target Popo?
    I gave them a (very) quick look but I can't say I found anything that stands out or hasn't already been discussed. Considering how much time he spent talking about Popo, targeting him is certainly possible but that's hardly news. I even tried finding signs in his RP letter that it was from the perspective of the King but couldn't find anything.

  28. - Top - End - #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Spoiler: bladescape ISO
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    Welcome Mr Popo I hope you enjoy the stay.
    Typical early randvote.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    WAIT.

    Do I know you Mr Popo.

    I think I do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also wanna say that Snow is just town rn so there's that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If Mr Popo is who I think they are then they don't even get a townread for their opening so far. =P

    I respect you too much my good sir.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Good Sir Goof, I recommend you ignore such heathenous activity of peasantfolk. They know not their position compared to your own incomparable position.

    Let it be known that you are a knight of much renown. I've only joust come to this decision.
    I should probably reevaluate Mr Popo more critically at some point - having a style of play I like doesn't make them towny. But I like effort because the more effort that goes into the game, the more likely scum is to get caught, so tryharding tends to be a pretty pro-town move (even if I know full well it can be a great bluff sometimes, and Mr Popo even acknowledges exactly that).

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    I mean, I'd say that claiming a role that's guaranteed to be town is pretty deserving of a townread, but ymmv.

    ...now how paranoid should I be about the fact you're townreading me?

    I've worked out what I'm doing for my RP and will get to work on putting together a scene. No song ideas yet, though!
    I pulled the Snowblaze quote to see if the full context would better explain the smiley, but I'm still not really able to sus any deeper meaning behind the smiley. It's probably just that Snowblaze is being paranoid and bladescape was amused by that, but I worry I'm missing out on something that made blade suspect Snow (especially when, a few blade posts back, Snow was a town lean). Idk I'm probably just trying to read deeper into it because this ISO is surprisingly sparse of actual analysis to dig into.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    Why was AV suspicious again? I'll reread but don't recall a specific case

    - - - Updated - - -

    My next post will have gamestate thoughts but I'll be writing it as a letter rp because that sounds fun
    Calling out Mr Popo on being very gung-ho about killing me for no publicly-stated reason, and promises more thoughts to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    JeenLeen

    (RP post delayed due to irl/distraction)
    Oh well, maybe later. The next one is big enough that I'll need to break it into chunks:

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    I won't say anything other than Mr Popo used to play here.

    He's also a good player.

    He's also going a lot harder than I think we're used to around here lmao.

    Migraine abating and I have some free time so I now gotta take gamestate reads and turn them into Medieval prose.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just getting it out before I have to prosify everything:
    Libro is also town.

    Another thing:
    Popo should know that I can probably fake that opener as wolf.

    I suspect his read is more "These other people are probably scum so that puts you towny and you're doing initial reads" but still kinda meh.

    PSA:
    Popo will say "This person is definitely wolf" while he doesn't believe it that seriously. He uses certainty of statement to garner gamestate reads.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I removed the hideous colour.

    Also given I've randed wolf all my games on this site since I returned so far you'd think "weird/different" would be a good thing.

    But then I guess Snow gave me a townread for being different last game and we all know how well that turned out. =P
    Ha! I see what you did there. Don't worry blade, it'll come back around.

    bladescape giving us more information about popo, but I'm not sure if it's quite as useful this time. I could hazard a guess about the reasons why, but a lot of it could make scum consider possibilities I'd rather went unconsidered, so the only one I'll state is that I think the activity level could easily be attributable to having returned to WW on this forum, with a few old familiar faces in the mix even.

    *nodnod*

    Murska does that a lot too. Seems to be a thing the old guard does to newer players who don't have good poker faces yet. Also probably works well on veterans who try to play as honest townies even when lying would be better for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    Dearest,

    It pains me to bring such word to your ears, but the Queen and Princess have come to conflict now. I find myself, even now, embroiled in such politics, although I long for the estate on which we shared so many years. But, alas, duty calls and as such I have but to provide council and participation in this playground of paranoia as noble and servant alike narrow their eyes at each other and attempt to root out those who follow the Queen's way.

    Of such, of course, I have but a perspicacious mind. Many acknowledge it, but I find myself ill-inclined to put such strenuous effort upon my own brain when I have other matters to attend to. Still, perhaps informing you of my situation and beliefs will find an ease that not only are my discoveries kept safe, but that you may live vicariously through my words and perhaps experience the daily discussion and investigation yourself.

    Though the paranoia is but tedious.

    Of good news to share, it seems that an old friend has returned. Count Popo, if you recall him from his visit to our estate. He grows weary with life but still musters spryness I envy and an energy and vigour I cannot hope to match with my now aching bones. He has seemed good to be around thus far, but I know his wily words are difficult to distinguish and risk much in considering him perhaps a safe friend. I will of course gladly work with him, but his words are of poison should he harbour affection towards the Queen, and I must analyse each missive from him within such consideration. One thing that perhaps abates my concern is how their viewpoint matches mine at times.

    Of similar virtue, a lovely chamber-maid who bears the name of Snow. She has perhaps been the most enthusiastically ardent in her attempts to defend the Princess, and I cannot help but find sincereness in her pleas. There is little concern I have of her to be one of a more fluid integrity, and I cannot help but thing she is of sound mind and astute observation. I cannot help but attribute her insistent defense of the Princess is a perfect elaboration on how our dear Princess has touched the minds and hearts of the common folk, of which she is a most courageous supporter.

    Alongside her, the Countess Libro is of utmost virtue, if I am to believe the titles. Though I am not one for much pomp and vigour, I do note that of much recent history that title has been one that has aligned itself with the Princess' cause. I find it unlikely that they would bring such valour to her highnesses name while also harbouring ill-will. I refuse to believe such loyalty would be betrayed by venom.

    There is also the matter of the poet and playwright Xi, of which I cannot help but swoon in awe of their creative prowess. Of course, their obvious loyalty to the Princess is of import as well, but perhaps I am too blinded by their words and wit to concern myself with the more trivial or political matters regarding them.

    I have more concerns of the accountancy of Gac. A willful man, he has pleaded forgetfulness in the face of the royal court, and I cannot help but wonder if this were perhaps a ruse. I am of little mind to hang one such as him over such a small violation of social etiquette, but I must keep such concerns alive, and not let such information to die in the drains of our memories.

    But most of my concerns dwell at the feet of Jeen from house Leen. Marquis Leen is of great concern, whose arguments flit between concern that the young servant Snow's plan comes from a place of ardour or a place of devious trickery. I am most concerned that he suggested such a thing as to trial Snow, as if we could not investigate the quality of her plan without knowing her allegiance.

    More-over, their reaction to suspicion in light of their opinions has not roused much sympathy in my heart. I would be fine seeing them and their family hang, for the good of the Princess and those that serve her.

    Forever yours,

    With as much love as the starlight sky dares bequeath upon these mortal eyes,

    Asterion 'Blade' Feneris, of the Moonlit Scape


    - - - Updated - - -



    This is a hilarious post if you know the original context this is referencing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If my experience tells me anything it's that it's not as open/close as it looks right now.

    Guarantee one of Jeen/Gac is red tho.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm tempted to make a case on R_A for memes.

    (Context: As wolf last two games I cased R_A D1 and tried to flip them.)
    what I can glean from this:

    Popo is a townlean, but a risky one in blade's mind, because he's tricky. Nothing new there.

    blade trusted that Snowblaze is genuine, as is Libro.

    blade is lightly townleaning Xihirli based on RP, but isn't sure that's a good basis for a townlean, especially D1.

    blade is concerned about gac and is lightly scumleaning him, but so far it's not really enough evidence to have earned a vote.

    blade was very interested in seeing JeenLeen hang, which occurred and provokes some change in thoughts later in the ISO.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    Popo is very good at finding town and as wolf good at hiding his wolf buddies.

    He can and will change those reads on new info. Don't think it's as set in stone as he takes it. He just evaluates the most likely targets for the day and moves in on that.
    *nodnod*

    If he was the kind of person who defends his D1 reads to the end of time, unwilling to consider new evidence, he wouldn't be anywhere near the kind of player you felt the need to warn us about.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    For what it's worth if this flips green I'd want to relook at Rogan
    Rogan did a few shifty things, even if there's people I'm rating lower. With JeenLeen gone, I've got a pressure-vote on Emmy to show up. I'd be fine going for Rogan, but for the moment I'd like to dig into the ISOs that popped up overnight - they've almost certainly got some juicy details in them that'll be fun to analyze, and there's promise of even more to come. And while I'm vaguely comfortable-ish clearing Popo on activity alone for the moment, I don't feel comfortable doing that for more than one person at a time...and gac isn't the "recently returned to our little community" guy, so he gets the cross-examination first. Rogan still definitely in my scum leans atm though.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    To re-eval:
    Rogon

    To keep an eye on:
    Mr Popo

    To protect:
    Libro/Snow

    Basic thoughts from beneath a headache
    The only one that didn't get a mention in that initial "my leans" RP letter is Rogan, who has since attracted attention. Nothing particularly surprising there.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    Me pregame: I'm gonna be casual this game.
    Mr Popo: *Exists*
    Me: Well there goes my plans.



    I'm not going to lie, my favourite part of that post was the whole "Bladescape can do everything so far as wolf."

    Because it's true.

    And I was going to call you out on that if you tried to hard-town me because I was already sus of the early "Blade is town" approach you had. Mostly because I know you know I can do this as wolf. And while I'm not AS good as I was before I took my 6 year hiatus (maybe) Mr Popo is always aware of Blade's wolf range, given the number of fun games we've had.

    I want to verify, btw, that this could all come from a wolf Mr Popo. Absolutely keep an eye on him as the game goes.

    BUT that being said I'm leaning towards him being town this game.

    The reason?

    His thoughts on several things have matched mine. Other than how hard he stuck on AV early on when I already flipped onto Jeen for the "Kill Snow to check the plan" post, he's fairly consistently in the same vein of thought as me.

    There is one possible sus part:
    He had Rogan as towny up until I voiced to re-check him.

    It's decently possible if Rogan is w that Mr Popo is possibly wolf too. Not guaranteed. Not "Lock that vote in if one of them flips". Just a possibility. Because Rogan had a good D1 in terms of post quality, but his positioning in thread was weird. That's why I made my "re-assess" post. And immediately after that Mr Popo tumbles the guy down the list. If he's town it's because he actually re-assessed.

    If it's wolf it's because he knows that I know him defending Rogan here would not be in line with the level of thought process I'd expect from him here.


    Either way. I'll try to do gamestate thoughts later but I gotta do work now so I'll be back in like...

    9ish hours?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also unpairing is simple but also complex.

    It's called "Check who each person could be a wolf with."

    Because if there's 3 wolves and one person could only be wolf with one person then no matter how sus they act they're probably town.

    That being said, this is subject to wifom and you have to have good reason to unpair but anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also Mr Popo get some rest.

    But why Emmy? Of the 0 posters?

    Or did Emmy actually post today.
    Bolded the section I feel is relevant. A rogan reevaluation/cross-examination needs to happen - idk if it'd be a smoking gun pointed at Popo, but the change in position just because blade spoke out against Rogan isn't a good look.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    I feel like I've missed something here.

    From what I can tell, both have 0 posted.

    Mr Popo mentions that "Of the two Emmy is the one that SHOULD have been here by now"

    I'm not sure I follow?

    (It's not impossible I've straight missed something)
    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    Ahh. Fair.
    This was a quick little exchange explaining how one weird thing blade noted about Popo wasn't actually all that weird.


    Step 1) Dig into gac3's ISOs and see if anything feels like scum trying to look like town.

    Step 2) Re-ISO Rogan, re-evaluate.

    Step 3) ISO Popo properly and see what can be gleaned.
    Here's the post where I ISO'd blade. It has all the blade posts. I've even made sure to make it so this post has quotes-within-quotes.

    (Also, this would be really good evidence that I was already looking for "signs to prove blade was the King"...if it didn't come before Popo indicated he'd gotten King'd. Alas.)


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  29. - Top - End - #419
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Here's the post where I ISO'd blade. It has all the blade posts. I've even made sure to make it so this post has quotes-within-quotes.

    (Also, this would be really good evidence that I was already looking for "signs to prove blade was the King"...if it didn't come before Popo indicated he'd gotten King'd. Alas.)
    Spoiler: Tech question
    Show

    You selected your post to edit it, copied the contend and went back without really changing anything. Next, you quoted your post. You replaced the auto generated content with the post you copied in step 1.
    Is this correct? Or is there another, simpler way to quote a post without losing the quotes in it?


    After reading this post, I have to agree with Bat. Nothing in there reads king, even if you are looking for it. But it shows that Blades was taking Mr Popo serious and paid attention there.

    The signature of his letter could be interpreted as belonging to an religious order, if you know he flipped Priest, but this is reaching for straws.

    Maybe, blades used the king to see if Mr Popo was the princess. In this case, he would receive invalid target and would know he doesn't need to be paranoid about Popo.
    The power working normally would give blades knowledge of Popos starting role, which might be useful for further analysis.

    I'm afraid, I'm not much better informed now than before reading the whole thing.
    AV remains helpful, but this is not going to proof her innocence.
    Spoiler: I'm a seer
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    All the discussion of how weird the half-hour start is seems weirdly prescient, in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Can I use my prediction of the half an hour being used to set up Factional chats as proof I am the Seer?
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions


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  30. - Top - End - #420
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    I'm a little sorry about that, but I'm about 70% sure scumteam already knows who everybody is; at most, they were going to figure out everything tonight, maybe tomorrow morning after the NK flip. Popo was right, massclaiming was the answer in this situation, so I went ahead.

    (I also kinda vaguely recalled that Popo had referred to you as Baron, but looking back, I'm not sure why? I can't find it anywhere, so yeah I outed you but I also kinda thought you were already outed, so even though outing people is the good move right now, that's definitely at least a little bit my bad. >.<)



    Why not? The whole point of the power is a slow build-up of a private network, and the only person you can trust is yourself by default. You were going to make a QT between two townies, neither of whom made it or knows who made it? All that's gonna do is put them at each other's throats.
    As for revealing me, eh. At this point I was on the fence about just saying it anyways. Now I don't have to decide.

    My original plan was "Mr. Popo seems town and better than me. QT with him night one. Night two: link Mr. Popo with whoever they want." But Mr. Popo was convinced they would die and gave me a whole bunch of stuff I was supposed to post today. So I connected you to me instead.

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