A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Spoiler: My Leans/Reasons
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    Mr. Popo: This man's shoulders must be tired from carrying the discussion so hard. It's refreshing to see somebody who isn't me pulling a townie gambit. Murska and the rest of the old guard are way better than me, but don't tend to go for showy plays. I appreciate that, and it's giving wonderful insight into Popo's mindset. Locktown, even more so than...

    Libro: Despite their professed opinion to the contrary, effectively the uncounterclaimed Countess. Only thing that would make me feel stronger about this lean is if they participated more since I know full well they're an experienced player who understands the game better than most and it frustrates me to no end that they don't post more aaaaaaaaaaaa

    Snowblaze: Some questionable stuff here and there, but overall seems genuine. Just is trying to get a mech plan to work in a game where mech really can't work - most of the questionable weird stuff arises directly from that.

    BatCatHat/Book Wombat/EmmyNecromancer/Rogue_Alchemist/Supagoof/Xihirli: Very few posts with anything that really provokes thoughts from me. Inactives aren't here, Xihirli is Xihirli'ing, sky is blue, ho hum.

    bladescape: bladescape is fairly quiet and not putting forth too much to think about, but that strikes me as kinda weird. I've generally gotten an impression of activity from them in previous games, and now they're kinda quiet. Makes me nervous, but I don't really have anything I can point to as a weird take.

    Rogan: Rogan's arguments feel weird at times, just slightly off. Missing the point in ways that I feel were very obviously stated. But there's not a ton of it.

    gac3: Is mostly flying under the radar, apparently missed the game after being the one to let the others know where the thread was, and one of their few posts is doing a classic wolf move. Doesn't feel great.

    JeenLeen: Bunch of little weirdnesses adding up into a pile of suspicion. If JeenLeen looked normal, I'd be looking weirder at Popo for suspecting them, but this isn't striking me very well either. One post in particular had a bunch of little things to call out.

    AvatarVecna: Obviously, lockscum, as usual. Never to be trusted, lynch D1, vig-shoot N1, whatever it takes.


    Spoiler: All Votes Not Crossed Out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supagoof View Post
    BatCatHat
    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Sugapoof
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    AvatarVecna
    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    JeenLeen[/B]
    Quote Originally Posted by Libro View Post
    Mr Popo
    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Mr. Popo
    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    Mr Popo
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Mr Popo
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    JeenLeen
    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    JeenLeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    JeenLeen
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    JeenLeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    Mr. Popo


    Vote Count
    Batcathat (1): Supagoof
    Sugapoof Supagoof (1?): gac3
    AvatarVecna (1/0?): Rogan(?)
    Mr Popo (4/5?): Libro, JeenLeen, Xihirli, Rogan(?), Book Wombat
    JeenLeen (5): Batcathat, Snowblaze, bladescape, Mr Popo, AvatarVecna
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-09-11 at 05:03 AM.


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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Book Wombat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Sugapoof? Sugar puffs? Sounds sweet.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Has Mr. Popo played before at a point I haven't? Because right now I'm wondering why they are staying so many people with such confidence are town. To the point that they claim their three wolf suspects are either it or wolves are inactive.

    That said I haven't read all of the posts. I have skimmed some of the bigger ones as I have just gotten off of work. Seems like Mr. Popo is a big suspect base on the number of times I saw him named in red. Is it just because of all this weird countess claim stuff?
    I think Mr Popo played way back in the day, but despite him implying in a post that he's played with me before I honestly can't for the life of me recall when.

    It could be another layer deception (and tbh, probably is). When people think they have you figured out, they act sloppier. if Mr Popo acts certain about particular people he secretly suspects, they're a bit more likely to relax and slip up. It's kinda like Godwin's Law: on the internet, the easiest way to get the truth isn't to just ask your question, it's to assert with confidence an answer you know is wrong so that somebody else will feel compelled to correct you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Everyone knows Wizards only become adventurers because it's the fastest way to get more Wizard levels.

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    I welcome votes on me from gac3 and book wombat directly after accusing them of being wolves.

    Let's get Jeen and gac3 and Book Wombat on me all in a line, posing for a picture.

    I want it for my scrap book.

    So now, because I have the evidence I need, I am ready to pull out the hammer of justice and show you where and why and how I got to literally all my reads.

    And then it seriously doesn't matter whether Jeen and gac and Book get me dead today or not.

    It literally makes zero difference to the outcome.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    I honestly didn't see your post calling me out before posting. Probably wouldn't voted if I had seen it.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    General replies to AV, not quoting because I don't trust myself with quotes.

    That "secrets" line in my RP does look rather like I'm soft-claiming Princess, doesn't it? (Being Chaotic is actually fun, I should try it more often!)

    The Princess not being able to network isn't because of what you've said, it's because once they've revealed they can't be targeted by actions other than the nightkill. There are probably some variants of the plan that would work differently but it's not really relevant at this stage. I'm done with mechanics.

    On "I was hoping that wouldn't happen": I wasn't expecting town to fakeclaim confirmed town roles. Also I wanted a day one without counterclaims and that sort of drama for once. Which was stupid of me, really.

    Why am I the only one who doesn't get words about why I'm town?

    And on bladescape, a) he said he'd be casual this game and b) he was a wolf in the last three games so acting differently isn't really a fair reason to suspect him.
    I have returned.

    Werewolf games won: 8
    Werewolf games lost: 5
    Games as town: 8
    Games as neutral: 2
    Games as wolf: 3
    Games narrated: 1
    Deaths: 6

    I have no clue what Iím doing, but you still shouldn't trust me.

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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Book Wombat's Avatar

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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    This could of course be a lie to make me look more Town, up to you what to think.

    EDIT: Addition to my previous post.
    Last edited by Book Wombat; 2021-09-11 at 05:05 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    I honestly didn't see your post calling me out before posting. Probably wouldn't voted if I had seen it.
    Even if you're telling the truth about both not seeing it and being town, it's still not a great look, you understand? Like, "If I were a wolf, I would've seen that trap and not stepped in it" gets into WIFOM - it's easy for a wolf to step into it on purpose and then be like "a wolf would've been too smart to step in the trap".

    EDIT: It doesn't help that more than one of your posts comes with a "I guess that looks kinda wolfy? lol oh well" afterthought. Classic TWTBW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    That "secrets" line in my RP does look rather like I'm soft-claiming Princess, doesn't it? (Being Chaotic is actually fun, I should try it more often!)
    Yes, and it should be a hard-claim (but not a bold one).

    The Princess not being able to network isn't because of what you've said, it's because once they've revealed they can't be targeted by actions other than the nightkill. There are probably some variants of the plan that would work differently but it's not really relevant at this stage. I'm done with mechanics.
    I think I missed that part of the mech. So you don't look worse for shooting down an upside to the plan that didn't really exist, I won't hold it against you anymore.

    On "I was hoping that wouldn't happen": I wasn't expecting town to fakeclaim confirmed town roles. Also I wanted a day one without counterclaims and that sort of drama for once. Which was stupid of me, really.
    Drama creates discussion and wins games. I've got a dozen games I played in before WW/Mafia died around here where everybody is quiet and wolves just coast to victory on the laurels of "it turns out town didn't actually want to play after all".

    Why am I the only one who doesn't get words about why I'm town?
    Mostly cuz I've been up all night and rearranging names into order, I ended up missing you. The summary of reasoning has been added, and I'm kinda regretting putting blade/rogan in yellow cuz it hurts my eyes.

    And on bladescape, a) he said he'd be casual this game and b) he was a wolf in the last three games so acting differently isn't really a fair reason to suspect him.
    That's probably fair, it's still setting me off though.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-09-11 at 05:07 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    It doesn't help that more than one of your posts comes with a "I guess that looks kinda wolfy? lol oh well" afterthought. Classic TWTBW.
    What can I say, it comes naturally Į\_(ツ)_/Į.
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  10. - Top - End - #130
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    I already hardclaimed Princess. I'll do it again, if you like: I'm the Princess ;)
    I have returned.

    Werewolf games won: 8
    Werewolf games lost: 5
    Games as town: 8
    Games as neutral: 2
    Games as wolf: 3
    Games narrated: 1
    Deaths: 6

    I have no clue what Iím doing, but you still shouldn't trust me.

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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    I already hardclaimed Princess. I'll do it again, if you like: I'm the Princess ;)
    As my first royal decree as princess, I say we should all include a princess hardclaim in every one of our posts.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Everyone knows Wizards only become adventurers because it's the fastest way to get more Wizard levels.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    So you look at gac, for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Sugapoof because i was going to vote BCH and you beat me too it.
    This is the sort of vote I see often from wolves on day one random voting stage. I do not think that Gac and Suga are partners for this vote.

    the purpose of these kinds of votes are:

    1) Blend in, it is random voting stage.
    2) No real reasons given, so wolf has as many options as possible
    3) If votes start piling on Supagoof after this point, hey, maybe it will provoke a claim.


    Simple simple.

    So what else did gac do today?

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    How I feel every game. I see the recruitment and am like "welp, I'm playing." Then the game roles around and I'm like... "Do I even know how to play this version?"
    Non-threatening fluff comment to get on AV's good side. "i know exactly how you feel, fellow townie".

    Nothing nothing nothing Page 2:

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Oh man. I forgot this game started. I need to catch up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Okay... So Mr. Popo claimed? But then said "don't give hints as to who the princess is not... I might be the princess. Does that mean they didn't claim?

    This is not a "this seems Wolfy" post as much as "is this what happened" post.
    "I am not paying close attention to this game. Sorry, fellow townies, I shall catch up."

    followed by:

    "I am tracking the claims and otherwise not solving the game or doing anything."

    Purely being concerned with claims and mechanics and lurking is what wolves do a lot, particularly when they're bad at being a wolf.

    Me trying too hard for a town read:
    At first, I read the "this is not a this seems wolfy post" aspect as possibly being a struggling townie catching up rather than shading people. It took reading AvatarVecna town for me to get to the point where I needed to really boot someone from my village because too many villagers, and this is clearly the worst stretch I made to get to a town read which I realized literally as I was presenting it in my first leans wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Because I am not in other games right now and have school and overtime and got into the habit of only checking like every other day and after posting the first time I got busy. I honestly even now don't remember if this started yesterday or two days ago. (I plan to check after this reply.)

    Then someone said this makes me look vote worthy. I didn't spot anyone accusing me of being inactive or not talking, so what is the point of anyone, wolf or town, being all "I forgot the game was happening, if they aren't either telling the truth or defending against inactive targetting.
    This is a post only talking about himself. this can happen, but it shouldn't be this much of what you're doing on a given day.

    Clearly the most interesting thing that has happened thusfar this game is I claimed count and someone thought gac might be worth questioning for that awkward return post.

    Nothing else interests gac enough to talk about yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by gac3 View Post
    Yet is on Mr. Popos list of town. He did express hesitance but... This should be a null read based on the fact there's nothing there right? Am I missing something? It's one thing if it was "these three look Wolfy so Supagoof is probably town" but it wasn't. It seems off to me.

    Edit: having actually read more of the post, by Mr. Popos own wolf hunting logic that they shared... Supagoof should be on the list of wolf subjects for having voted for one of their town picks.
    After being accused of being a wolf and suspected by multiple people, Gac returns to discuss only myself, his accuser.

    So again, self focused.

    And here is the big giant 999 foot tall flaming scum tell, right here, in bold.

    Accusing a townie of inconsistency.

    "This townie should accuse literally everyone in the game who voted for a townie, otherwise they are being hypocritical and inconsistent."

    That's right, this is how townies think.

    Remove all context, all other possible difference makers between Supa and anyone else, and insist that "by your own logic" there have to be like 9 wolves in the game.

    This is called being an unfair juror and it is also the mega flaming scummy "inconsistency is the hobgoblin of wolfy minds" scum tell.

    This person is a lock wolf, never rescind, is literally always guilty.

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    ...calling out inconsistencies between how a player talks and how they act is a part of catching wolves, though. Most of the conclusions in that post feel pretty solid, but "if you call me out on my inconsistencies, you're scummy" isn't a great take.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Everyone knows Wizards only become adventurers because it's the fastest way to get more Wizard levels.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    The die favours Rogan not.
    This is a vote for a townie for zero reasons, the exact same thing as gac3's opener.

    The wolfy purpose of which is stated in the wall I posted about gac. It's the same shiz, and even distancing oneself from responsibility by claiming the dice made him do it.

    You know who didn't do that? Rogan.

    I harshly disagreed with it, but Rogan was basically plopping his big manly balls all over Vecna and saying LOL I SHOULD KILL YOU EVERY GAME FOR FUNSIES.

    Which is downright toxic if it's not actually a joke.

    But you know what that isn't? Avoiding responsibility for his own vote. Which is why Rogan is a big manly villager right now and Book Wombat is getting slammed shut by this entire village.

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    I have a thought, what if the Princess or Countess role is currently not in use? The role descriptions do not appear to say if they will always be in use at the very beginning, only that if someone gains the role they will not be able to change it.
    If the Queen's Servants know that one or both roles are missing they could easily fake-claim. Just speculation but who knows?
    Pure mechanics speculation which is not even the case because we have claimed Princesses and Countesses.

    "Who knows?" Padding. This is staggeringly bad "I am thinking about this game" pretend roleplay.

    That's page 1. Does he improve?

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    Another thought, the Countess' role seems to like it's her purpose to sacrifice herself for the Princess after the reveal.
    You don't say!

    This is pure commentary mode, zero threats made against wolves, zero direct or indirect pressure, zero solving done. Haven't seen even one villager read yet.

    Surely something villagery happened on page 2? Nope? Okay.

    Three strikes and you're out, Wombat.

    I accuse Wombat and immediately Wombat appears, flinch flinch lurky lurky wolfy flinch flinch caught you, scummer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    Somehow Mr. Popo feels off to me, might be all the layers. Dunno.
    "off" is such a slam dunk case.

    Way to distance yourself from the responsibility of my townie death by saying "off" and "Dunno".

    You're clearly confident this kills a wolf.

    Obviously, frankly.

    Book Wombat can get owned by this entire village.

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    Uh, yeah. I only reloaded the page at around 11 o'clock and posted half an hour later so I missed the part where Mr. Popo called me out.
    Probably sounds a bit suspicious, oh well.
    Book has zero townies, has voted for two townies, and admits the timing of their OMGUS is a bit suspicious.

    GLAD WE AGREE.

    When you have this many villagers, hitting wolves is shooting fish in a barrel... of laughs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    ...calling out inconsistencies between how a player talks and how they act is a part of catching wolves, though. Most of the conclusions in that post feel pretty solid, but "if you call me out on my inconsistencies, you're scummy" isn't a great take.
    Read the specifics of what was said, one more time.

    You absolutely can get this. Absolutely you will have zero struggle with this concept.

    I suggested the wolf team (of three) probably plopped their votes all over townies today.

    Yes, of course, some townies did that as well. Of course. What person in their right mind thought i implied otherwise?

    Now, put yourself in gac's shoes.

    He is literally suggesting every vote on a townie is equal.

    Which means we have more wolves this game than townies.

    There can be no context whatsoever that makes one vote on a townie wolfy, and another villagery.

    No context, no reasoning.

    Simply accusing someone for being wolfy and voting for people I think are villagers is scummy because hey, villagers also voted for villagers.

    Which makes sense exactly in the universe where I had zero reasons to town read anybody, and in literally no other universes.

    That is EXACTLY a wolf suggesting a townie "should" think all votes for townies are equal.

    It is EXACTLY a scum mindset, and literally never a townie mindset.

    Literally no townies ever, ever, ever think in this specific way, even yourself, who believes that wolves behave inconsistently.

    Townies do it way more, so I harshly disagree with you philosophically, but even if you believe it, you know for a FACT that particular logic is bogus in the extreme and that was literally the logic being presented.

    No townie thinks that way including you who thinks that calling out inconsistencies (this generic? Give me a break!) is a good way of catching wolves.

    You have to disconnect your brain and pretend not to be able to think like a human being, in order to PRETEND to believe that.

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    In at least the past ten games my first vote was random. In this game it was no different. Most other players should know about this.
    EDIT: Oh, whoops. Past nine games.

    Don't have much to say about the other things.
    Last edited by Book Wombat; 2021-09-11 at 06:05 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    I'm just saying that "he called me out on a perceived inconsistency" is not smoking gun evidence. Getting into the weeds makes it look worse, but your initial response to it painted "calling out inconsistencies" with a very broad "this is wolfy" brush.

    I calls em like I sees em and that doesn't stop just cuz the person getting called out is in my town reads. It's still only D1.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    In at least the past ten games my first vote was random. In this game it was no different. Most other players should know about this.
    Don't have much to say about the other things.
    Honestly also this. This is just kinda how people vote.

    "AV is always sus so vote them D1"

    "RNGesus says to kill AV"

    "AV needs to die for screwing us over last game"

    "killing AV before they get to play is funny"

    None of these are concrete reasons to vote me this game, even if some of them maybe look like real reasons. Early D1 votes never have actual reason behind them, and so far that looks like the basis for Popo's leans on gac3, Book Wombat, Rogan, and his early lean on me. Literally his whole evidence for a case against me that he wasn't outright stating at the time was "voting somebody for basically no reason".


    Currently Recruiting WW/Mafia: Unavenger's "UPick 2: Pick Harder"

    Avatar by AsteriskAmp

    Aspiring optimizers can try their luck in Zinc Saucier XXXIX: Hoist The Colors High

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Everyone knows Wizards only become adventurers because it's the fastest way to get more Wizard levels.

  17. - Top - End - #137
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2014
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    Germany
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    So you look at gac, for example.

    <snip>

    This person is a lock wolf, never rescind, is literally always guilty.
    One of my problems with Mr Popo are absolute statements like that. But it might be a difference in play style.

    I don't know what I should make of him and if anything he does or suggests is really something he thinks best for town, a ruse to hide his true intentions and lure the traitors into a false sense of security, or a wolf playing too much like a wolf in order to deceive everybody.
    I think he is willing to take a risk, no matter the alignment.

    And now I am sitting here, wondering if I should trust my gut, trust some more experienced players (hoping they are not all allies) or do something different altogether.

    I think in some ways, Mr Popo is similar to AV. Both very fond of the manipulation part of the game. I tend to go against AV for the same reasons. I should leave my tunnel and read everything again, trying not to let my prejudice cloud my views.

    Unwilling to vote today:
    Rogan, Libro, Snow, Xi, BatCatHat, Emmy, Rouge.
    AV (it would still be funny, but that's not sufficient reason for a vote anymore)

    Mr Popo is in a weird spot. On the one hand, many things would make sense as a Town player, on the other hand, just as many things rubb me the wrong way.

    I think there are arguments for a vote for Mr Popo, gac, book and Jeen.

    I am going to cross out my votes and check again which of those targets will, in my opinion, yield the best results.
    Spoiler: I'm a seer
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    All the discussion of how weird the half-hour start is seems weirdly prescient, in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Can I use my prediction of the half an hour being used to set up Factional chats as proof I am the Seer?
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions

  18. - Top - End - #138
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    JeenLeen is a bigger monster, but here, I have way, way more evidence to show you.

    For your convenience I have bolded and color coded the stuff I refer to.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    The Countess and Princess are the only Roles that can't be changed via King or Prince, correct?
    Asking mainly to make sure they can't mess up this plan.

    ---

    I like the feel of Snowblaze's plan. It feels similar to the type of perhaps-overthought plan I'd like to devise and submit D1 for consideration, and I generally only do that as Town. (A wolf is usually too cautious to submit such a thing.) However, I've seen Snowblaze be a bold wolf.

    Would the wolves like the plan to work?
    In an obvious way, no. Sets up a towncore, blah, blah. But let's look at it from a wolf!Snowblaze perspective, if Snowblaze's goal is to gain immense towncred.

    It sets up 2 players as essentially-death-proof Town (assuming 2+ Handmaidens and the wolves don't get lucky killing handmaidens early and/or trading out the Roles of handmaidens). That's strong, and (if the Baron is/stays Town) enables strong networking. Even if the Baron is a wolf and sets up the town-verified as in communication with a wolf, that seems likely to backfire. Unless the wolves have an abnormal number of wolves -- seems unlikely due to some dislike of the number of wolves in the last game -- I think the wolves would be more worried about the towncore than having a wolf embedded in towncore early on. The wolves would need to luck out killing handmaidens for this plan to be in their favor... so unless there aren't any curently or they are wolves... seems a bad ploy for a wolf to suggest.

    All in all, doesn't sound worth it. So I'd lean Snowblaze as town.
    Also, I agree it's worth getting the Princess killed if it means we can kill a wolf fakeclaiming Countess.

    Something about AvatarVecna's banter/joke-vote on Libro rubs me the wrong way, enough to justify an early D1 vote.
    Opening lines: Sure, let's have our important roles claim.

    I like the feel of Snowblaze's plan which I think is townie, but she could also be a wolf.

    But I do not think she is a wolf, therefore she is a town lean.

    "I agree" it's worth getting our princess killed and getting the countess killed, in the unlikely event that after this plan a wolf claims countess, when the setup has a countess and the wolves know that.

    The only part of that which is remotely like villaging at all is reading Snow as town. Everything else is wildly wolfy.

    And really, why wouldn't you read a townie town who is suggesting to hand over the important roles you otherwise have to seek out and murder, and are worried about voting for and getting OMGUS voted when they hard claim (which is one way to out them, but if you can do it without voting them at all, all the better!)

    And now, I shall vote for AvatarVecna, a townie, because they voted Libro, a different townie.

    You see, it's his fault I am voting there, more or less. Avoiding responsibility when that's wrong.

    So, full of wolfy agenda and blame shifting. All in just the first post.

    Let's continue:

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I like how you're playing. Very fun to read.
    From a practical perspective, I'd rather vote someone else than you, assuming no actual evidence, just to keep reading the letters you are writing.

    Since Roles aren't tied to alignment (except for two Roles), eh... hard to read Xi's suggestion and the relevance of what Batcathat notes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I agree with this thought.
    But note that Snowblaze is only asking the Countess and Princess to claim, and their powers can't be stolen/swapped by the Prince or King.

    But, yeah, massclaiming in general is... at the least, strange this game. Since you can't really verify. For one example: even if a Guard says someone lied about their Role, the claimer (truthfully or not) could say that they got swapped. Since it can't help the Town verify someone as being honest, I think claiming (outside of Princess or Countess) only helps the wolves.
    I lean that Snowblaze's plan helps the town more than the wolves, but I'd like to hear more thoughts.
    Here is this post:

    Hi, Xihirli, your roleplaying is non-threatening to me, and I shall buddy you.

    I shall vote in a way that deliberately does not hunt you if you are a wolf because reasons villagers shouldn't use.

    "I agree" scumtell goes off a second time in two posts.

    This is diplomatic and ingratiating and furthermore, has been performed by literally every. single. wolf. team. I have faced. In the past year. Every single game. Without exception. None.

    Multiple times, from multiple wolves, in the correct wolfy context of buddying and being ingratiating and +1'ing some villager's post.

    This tell is inaccurate to the point that townies can do it a lot too. So I never, ever use this tell alone.

    I always combine it with several other wolf tells, because then, the accuracy skyrockets.

    So, mechanics talk fills the remainder, with hedging as to whether it is pro town or not. Gives points on both sides.

    Nothing else of substance on page 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    From the rules, it sounds like you only power-claim Princess if you type the keywords in bold. The Princess could 'soft-claim' Princess, or anyone could fakeclaim Princess.
    It also seems implies that anyone could type the keyword in bold to fakeclaim Princess, but of course such would be found out once it becomes clear we're not just waiting on Cao to confirm.

    @Cao: could you confirm if the above is correct? Also, if someone fakeclaims Princess via typing the keywords in bold, would you officially state they are not the Princess, or would you purposefully not respond?
    More mechanics talk.

    Further, this post strongly implies that Jeen is not the princess. Which is something a villager should be more careful NOT to do.

    But obviously a wolf has no such concerns.

    Which, combined with the multiple "I agree" tells and stalling in the mechanics discussion, has given me three reasons to scum read JeenLeen already.

    So after discussing almost nothing at all but mechanics for three posts, Popo steps in and shuts it down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    I have an idea, let's not systematically give hints as to who the Princess is not.

    As far as I am concerned, everyone is the Princess, including me.

    And if you imply you're not, I would like a few words with your corpse at sundown.
    Because it's disastrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I hadn't noticed the key phrase "to the effect of" claiming the Princess in the role power. So it's just the idea and the bolded text that matters, not the exact syntax, colon-use, or word order. Good to realize.

    Also nice to know I can easily confirm I'm not the princess, if for some reason I'd like to.
    And then Jeen continues to discuss mechanics and specifically disclaims being the princess, which draws attention and is wolfy and therefore bad to do as the princess.

    And it's bad to do as a wolf because it's wolfy.

    Doing wolfy things is pretty bad when it's early game, no matter what your alignment is.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    I think so.
    Here's the order of relevant things I saw:

    1. Mr. Popo claimed the Countess role.
    2. Libro maybe implied a counterclaim. Not really clear what he meant.
    3. Mr. Popo responded (jokingly?) as if Libro was asking about "Count" vs "Countess" as opposed to a claim.
    4. During later discussion, Mr. Popo said he might be the princess. Which I read as them backing off from their prior claim, but it wasn't explicitly that.

    Now, to me, that does read as wolfy. But, since the wolves supposedly know who the unclaimed roles are, it looks non-wolfy since I can't see a wolf fakeclaiming Countess when they know Countess is in play. So ends up as confusing.
    Lurking, not solving.

    Taking two positions at the same time, in the bolded parts.

    Only discussing claims and mechanics.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    If not that I already know someone I want to move my vote onto, that misstep is enough to make me vote gac3 D1. Does seem odd.
    "Odd, interesting, strange, weird" are all terms that wolves use instead of taking a stand as to whether someone is wolfy or villagery.

    Combined with explicitly not voting there, that's extra wolfy.

    You posted after Mr. Popo claimed, but did not claim then. So I'm assuming you're lying.
    If not, want to throw a bold to back that up?
    Fishing for role claims.

    Eh... I was going to wait until 5 pm to post this, but I'll go ahead and post it now.
    Preparing posts in advance is wolfy.

    After a little more thought, I started having second thoughts about Snowblaze's plan. I wrote up my arguement against it shortly after my first post, but was waiting to post it until giving others' time to vote and talk.
    But then I accidentally closed Notepad and lost it. So trying to write it up again.

    Would wolf!Snowblaze propose this plan?
    How bad is it if we mislynch town!Snowblaze? (Keeping in mind we will probably mislynch D1 anyhow.)

    I realized this plan effectively eliminates a large amount of the Town's power, at little to no risk to wolves.
    The Princess is revealed, but her vote is nullified. She becomes a null player.
    The Countess is revealed, but since the wolves know who the Princess is, she won't help catch wolves.
    The handmaidens are occupied, and thus won't stop the wolf NK or other actions.

    This effectively gives the wolves free reign to target with minimal risk of getting caught, and, while it creates a town-verified duo, they only have 1 vote between them. And the Baron (if even Town) can't communicate with either to expand a private network.
    So, yeah, there's watcher powers and maybe the Guard(s) could catch someone, but it's less likely if those roles are occupied. That's a good setup for the wolves to have time to hunt out the rest of Town and be able to overwhelm the Countess and Princess via controlling the lynch, especially if (as the plan is going as intended) wolf!Snowblaze has a lot of towncred and thus coasts safely.

    Now, Snowblaze's plan does have some merit. Not saying it doesn't. But I'd trust it a lot more if we knew Snowblaze's alignment. So I propose lynch her.
    This is the wolfiest argument in the history of wolfy arguments.

    First: Snowblaze's plan is good and can help town and reads villagery.

    Then: The plan has some merit. Not saying it doesn't. But let's lynch Snowblaze to confirm Snowblaze is town, for no reason, and then continue to encourage townies who shouldn't claim day one to claim on day one.

    Did Libro counterclaim Mr. Popo?
    I dislike Libro's maybe-implied-counterclaim, while he explicitly states he's on break and thus sets the groundwork that he doesn't have much time to post and has a rationale for not being able to clarify anytime soon. It feels like something a wolf might say to get a wagon on Mr. Popo, only for the wolf to be able to clarify "too late" during the weekend when posting might be low.
    "dislike" and "feels" are not stances taken on alignment.

    Also fishing for claims again.

    Though I guess I'm paranoid enough to contemplate that the wolves might be trying to gain towncred via both of them being wolves and hoping at least one becomes trusted. But that seems unlikely between role-switchers that could fail, watchers that could see a supposed-Countess targeting, and Guards maybe able to confirm an unswitchable Role. But that's probably too bold a move for wolves to make. On the other hand, I could see wolves doing that if they had sufficient numbers (4+?) and knew there was no Countess in play.
    ...urgh, confusing.
    Continually claiming to be confused, over and over again.

    This is pretend struggle, not natural behavior.

    I could see that scenario, but I think it more likely that wolf!Snowblaze would plan for the plan to succeed (to gain towncred), but that the plan isn't actually as good for town as it sounds.
    But, yes, I also have a complimentary paranoia about Snowblaze.

    I'm pretty sure the wolves do not contain all of Snowblaze, Libro, and Mr. Popo. Seems too bold to do two schemes D1 (Libro-maybe-counterclaim-Popo in a double-fakeclaim-Countess move, and Snowblaze's plan). So if two of those three wind up flipping wolf, I trust the third. Yet, the longer I let the paranoia stew, the more I could consider it as possible. So crazy a gambit the wolves feel compelled to take it, since no way the Town would believe it. And not like any seers exist in this game.
    So let's smudge all three of these townies and claim it is a crazy gambit, and begin with executing Snow.

    Note: when I wrote the long chunk of stuff above, Snowblaze's claim was "not Countess or Princess". I also take her latest claim as joking, but, uh, felt like I wanted to clarify since that context did maybe-change.
    This part is fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    No. That's my bad.
    For some reason, I misread "vote count" as an awkward way of saying "the value of your own vote", and so misread it as the Princess' vote changing from 1 to 0. Not that votes against the Princess count as 0, which is obviously the correct and logical interpretation.

    That does make Snowblaze's plan more pro-town.
    But I still find it iffy
    in that it basically directs the Handmaidens to known targets, letting wolf NKs goes relatively free and wolf King/Princes get targets they know they can target.
    Takes two positions at the same time.

    This is not a natural development of reads, it is a justification of a position taken.

    Instead of making reads fit the evidence, Jeen is forcing the evidence to have no effect on his own votes or "beliefs".

    That's backward and what wolves do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Is it just me or does Jeen's reasoning here seem a little odd? Lynching someone to judge if their plan is pro-wolves or pro-town instead of just dissecting the plan and judging it on its own merits?
    Which Bat immediately sees. And so do I.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    No, it is not only you.

    Every single one of Jeen's posts makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. Which is a pretty neat trick, as Popo is hairless. I am trying to talk Jeen down and get on the same page, but I am not forced to vote for Vecna today, is what I am saying.
    If I ever town read Vecna, I would immediately yeet Jeen into the sun based on their body of work thusfar.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    The reason I propose this is because I think we (as the Town with limited intel) necessarily can't know as many details as the wolves know. I can see the plan as made by a townie or a wolf, and as either pro-town or pro-wolf. (And not mutually exclusive: a townie can (and I definitely have as town) propose a pro-wolf plan thinking it's a good move for town. And the wolves might propose a pro-town plan by accident, or even for towncred if they think it's not too anti-wolf.)

    Since there's unknowns that make it hard to tell if the plan is a sound one, I'd like to know the alignment of the person proposing it. I trust Snowblaze's reasoning abilities, so if she as Town proposed it, I'd go with it being a good plan.


    But I can get your point. But for the D1 lynch we have so little to go on, I find it useful. Usually when there's nobody I strongly suspect, I like to lynch the person whose death will yield the most info about survivors' alignment, I don't think Snowblaze's death will do that, but it will yield useful info about the source of her plan.
    See all this bolded?

    This is explicitly never the Princess.

    It is also riding the fence so hard Jeen has to be bleeding below the belt by now.

    And then Jeen doubles down on basically lynching Snowblaze to confirm that Snowblaze is town and for basically zero other reason.

    Instead of deciding for oneself if the plan is a good plan, we have to somehow kill the person who proposed it.

    Then we'd know if it was good?

    Because villagers never come up with specious plans which they have good intentions about but can seriously backfire, of course.

    There is no wolfier argument than "I think this person's ideas are good, we should yeet them to make sure the person proposing the idea is town, before we proceed."

    That is not even an accusation of being a wolf.

    But I tell you what, JeenLeen fighting machine, you think the idea is good, so let's execute YOU and see YOUR alignment before we proceed.

    That's my response to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    I prefer finding arguments that lead to the arrest and exile of disloyal persons.

    I find the game is easier to solve when the disloyal persons are already rounded up and in prison.

    Can I re-interest you in a re-death for the un-dead abomination Vecna who is at the very least not clearly and obviously loyal to the crown?
    One more attempt to get Jeen to vote for people they can believably think are a wolf as opposed to voting villagery people for wolfy reasons.

    One last chance, because we need every active townie we can get, even one with their head so buried in mechanics and claims they are flat out not solving at all, nor even voting for someone I can believe is even their own suspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    So, Jeen can assist me with destroying an actual suspect today or I can join you on voting for Jeen.

    There may only be room in this game for one Genie, but I am continuing to give Jeen rope to hang someone else with rather than himself. It's always possible they are just an accidentally disloyal looking pretty pretty princess.
    Final warning before I yeet the Jeenie into the sun.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeenLeen View Post
    Eh, I was close to voting Mr. Popo before Libro posted. I would have if not that he's a new player (for some definition of 'new'), and there's a meta currently not to vote new (or returning players who are new to most folk here) D1, but evidence like a counterclaim is hard to ignore.
    And then Libro posted.

    Mr. Popo, any defense?
    For what it's worth, I buy you are experienced and a valuable asset to the Town when Town. You could well be a confident townie using a tested methodology, but I can also see a wolf counting on the meta and confidence to wade through this Day.

    Plus, if you flip wolf, lots of towncred to AV and your opposition to Snowblaze's plan makes it look more appealing.
    If you flip town and aren't the Countess, then, well... wish you hadn't claimed.
    If you flip town and are the Countess... well, I find that doubtful as it means Libro is a wolf throwing his life away D1.

    An oddity: the wolves, from what Cao said, know what Roles are inactive. So it seems odd to claim a Role like Countess or Princess where they can't be duplicates with the same Role. But maybe the wolves didn't communicate well, or wolf!Popo thought he could backtrack well enough on his claim, or just the oddness of the game/D1 would let it coast. An odd thing, to be sure, but I'm not sure how to factor it into my analysis or let it impact my vote.
    I'd appreciate others' thoughts, especially Mr. Popo's.
    "Odd / interesting / weird / strange / dislike / feel"

    All of these words in the context of an accusation are shifting the blame and distancing from one's own suspicion.

    Instead of saying your suspect is actually suspect, or suspicious, or wolfy, or scummy, or outed, or howling, or definitive stances, you continually hide behind passive aggressive language.

    Indirect accusations are wolfy.

    Say "Odd" again.



    You will know MY NAME IS THE POPO when I yeet you into the sun.



    There is a reason so many people wanted to vote for Jeen today, their iso literally is an entire tire yard caught ablaze, with very very little in the way of possible counterindicators.

    The sum total of their villaging this game is to suggest Snowblaze is a villager and then suggest we yeet her to make sure.

    This one can get flipped today, no holds barred, no lines, no waiting.

    Straight into the sun.




    (Giant pause separating these two walls)






    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    I think there are arguments for a vote for Mr Popo, gac, book and Jeen.
    You can yeet all four of them, in any order you please.

    That's only a dumb idea when there's a fourth wolf at this point.

    Now I can spend the next several hours going over how I town read each person in sequence, describing for you how in the blue heck I got so many villagers to begin with, but let's give people the quick summary.

    Supagoof is likely town because gac3 is likely a wolf and voted him d1 in the rvs stage for the reasons I wager are a wolf.

    That's it, that's all I got on goof. Their one post is also strikingly warm and fuzzy to me on a visceral level that I cannot put into words.

    Obviously, I cannot blue this person. But man, if gac is a wolf, why would your next arrest be Goof?

    Especially after gac came back with the argument that I should suspect goof for the reasons I suspected Gac.

    That's not wolf/wolf a LOT.

    BattheCat has been flowing, natural, waterfall thoughts all game, snap voted Jeen for all the wolfy stuff Jeen did, and is clearly in high spirits, no tension, when they made the jokes about Vecna not even needing justification to be voted.

    Not my top villager read, but has done literally zero wolfy things all game and has been very alert and participating and actually hunting of wolves.

    What more do you ever need? Hunting villagers is literally this simple when wolves do not have a game that is superior to this hurdle.

    Good wolves clear that hurdle, but we're not dealing with those if my reads are correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    It was in this little park that I used to categorize fossils and read the rings of slaughtered tree trunks. I wrote a research paper once that dedicated thirty pages purely to logging birds. Iíve never been happier to forget the words double-crested cormorant.
    They used to tell us when we spent our summers here that we could canoe or kayak, whatever we liked. But we couldnít swim. No, never swim. That was too dangerous, we had to be weary of the water. Even the beach had signs that read ďDANGERĒ for fear the residue from inside you still swirled into the algae-flooded waters, even after all those years. They must have been right, though. To find any signs of life we had to take the river where it met the ocean. There, the muck thinned into salted clouds of green that you still couldnít quite see through, but somehow seemed more inviting.
    We were children, though. And all the precautions made us restless.


    So it's now occurred to me that I was really into the idea of a love letter themed game not knowing that love letter is like... a show name or something. I just thought it was letters and I think I'm in a different setting than everyone else.

    Eh, in for a penny.

    Weighing in on the "reveal town roles" plan: This will always just feel unsporting to me. It's such an obvious move that a lot of games inspired by preexisting stories just don't have a mechanical way to prevent. Heck, I left Seto Kaiba out of Yu-Gi-Oh! purely to subvert the idea "she'd never leave THIS character out"
    Spoiler
    Show
    also the section of the story I was adapting had nothing to do with that windbag
    but a lot of games like this just can't have that option built in. This just feels like a move we should ladies' agreement out of
    .
    Xihirli

    Everything in the bolded here is super natural, believable, and it rings absolutely true.

    Immediately opposing the mass claim, having no idea about the setup, just wanting to roleplay, getting pocketed by Jeen who is wolfy as heck?

    Yeah, that's good enough for a day one town read. You better believe Popo about that one.

    I marked Xi down as not today and she has only gotten better from there, while everyone below Xi got worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladescape View Post
    WAIT.

    Do I know you Mr Popo.

    I think I do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also wanna say that Snow is just town rn so there's that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If Mr Popo is who I think they are then they don't even get a townread for their opening so far. =P

    I respect you too much my good sir.
    How about bladescape?

    That's all the exact correct reaction to everything that happened all game at that point.

    Instead of sitting here discussing mechanics, blades is giving out actual town reads and gave a suspicion and a big fat warning that I am an ultra wolf that no one should ever just trust no matter how townie I sound.

    THAT is how townie blades would react to suspecting I am in the game.

    With that one post, he is already leagues and leagues ahead of all my suspects in terms of actual villaging. That's how little effort it actually took.

    Is that *safe*? Could he not be a wolf if my wolf reads are wrong?

    Blades is one of the greatest wolves of all time.

    He's also one of the greatest villagers. And guess what, he randed village this game, finally.

    How about that? Not even difficult.

    Snowblaze is easily town for her plan, her reactions all game, her town and scum reads, and Jeen trying to kill her to prove she is town.

    That one wasn't difficult either.

    She also claimed Princess quickly, but was also clearly playing along, which indicates a spirited, free mindset free of tension.

    if this one is wolfing, congrats. I never hit here unless literally all my suspects are wrong. 1 out of 3 wrong, you can consider her at LYLO or MYLO only. That's how strong that is.

    AvatarVecna is the comeback king and has been the most staggeringly villagery person by cold read since their mediocre opening post.

    They are villaging light years ahead of my suspects, easily in my top 4 townies of the game now, and that's combined with me and the person who can only ever be the Countess, which reminds me:

    Libro is the countess and therefore always town.

    My gambit proved that to be the case. Just like when Chessgeek and I claimed masons, and the real masons claimed, we proved that they were really the masons, because wolves do not counterclaim 2 claimed masons EVER.

    And also, 2 wolves do not claim to be masons EVER.

    So town had twice as many masons that game because I lied to them!

    Libro is now my mason buddy, one way only, because I lied, openly, deliberately, and obviously about being the countess and even told everyone I was lying about it.

    Rogan is the lawful paladin to my chaotic evil genie.

    Dude has the towniest mindset and is not afraid to claim responsibility for their votes or discuss all their actual town reads and scum reads.

    It shouldn't be this trivial, but it is.

    And if you people think I would ever arrest EmmyNecromancer or RogueAlchemist today over any of gac3, Book, or Jeen, you are out of your minds.

    I refuse to give the wolves a single villager. Not one. Not even if they are not here to defend themselves.

    And if there are 4 or 5 wolves, THERE THEY BE.

    We can deal with them later.

    This has been Mister Popo, the guardian of Earth, and THIS IS HOW I VILLAGE.
    Last edited by Mr Popo; 2021-09-11 at 07:32 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #139
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Xihirli's Avatar

    Join Date
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    On one of these days, we snuck up there and passed a few cans of beer around, still warm from being hidden outside. I had scanned a bag of pot into evidence earlier that week and suggested we use it. Perhaps if weíd been a little more sober, we might have realized it wasnít a very bright idea, but we werenít, and we didnít. It wasnít difficult to get, either. It was stupidly easy to walk into evidence, stuff it into my trousers, and walk out. Mixed with the thrill of theft, it was the best high I ever had. We sat around the bell, rusted so bad it had turned Liberty green.
    I wonder what it looks like now. Maybe I ought to take photos of that, too.



    Okay, went to work and then sleep. Catching up, Popo became the lead lynch for a second then chimed in with a post essentially saying "I meant to fake-claim and get caught. It was all a clever ploy, you see."

    And that's fair enough I suppose. It did strike me as... a risk a wolf wouldn't need to take at this point. Now that's no guarantee, but ultimately I have decided to cross out my vote. If Popo sparks discussion and activity like this every day then every day we keep him alive is a good thing at least in that end.

    That said, I've not been pulled over to the JeenLeen wagon. Popo's got a lot of information going toward JeenLeen, excepting one crucial thing, and that is experience playing with Jeen. Now I've run a game that Jeen was playing in and I've been in games with them for... what, the last year? It's been a fair few. And I will take a second to say that Jeen always acts like this. Now, in Jeen's defense, or rather, not at all, he is also usually Neutral, so my town-read on him may be off, but looking at his behavior D1 in my Yu-Gi-Oh! game, it was full of statements like "I'll be up-front that I'm aware this totally can look like a wolf defending himself, but..." and "I don't want to answer this too fully -- I wrote up a lot of IF-THEN scenarios then deleted them..." ALMOST saying a lot of things. He also sort of bumbled around with the rules (misidentifying the Baner role, asking over the phase mechanics), and I say that as a proud bumbler around with the rules. Jeen learns by doing and doesn't usually hit his stride day one. His behavior today has been consistent with his town behavior.

    So I'm looking for alternate wagons.
    Spoiler: Quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
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    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
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    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
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    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
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    Nobody else is gonna be right behind me, right now. Only Xihirli.
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    If Xi and I agree some more, I will start to doubt my own alignment!
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  20. - Top - End - #140
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    That said, I've not been pulled over to the JeenLeen wagon. Popo's got a lot of information going toward JeenLeen, excepting one crucial thing, and that is experience playing with Jeen. Now I've run a game that Jeen was playing in and I've been in games with them for... what, the last year? It's been a fair few. And I will take a second to say that Jeen always acts like this. Now, in Jeen's defense, or rather, not at all, he is also usually Neutral, so my town-read on him may be off, but looking at his behavior D1 in my Yu-Gi-Oh! game, it was full of statements like "I'll be up-front that I'm aware this totally can look like a wolf defending himself, but..." and "I don't want to answer this too fully -- I wrote up a lot of IF-THEN scenarios then deleted them..." ALMOST saying a lot of things. He also sort of bumbled around with the rules (misidentifying the Baner role, asking over the phase mechanics), and I say that as a proud bumbler around with the rules. Jeen learns by doing and doesn't usually hit his stride day one. His behavior today has been consistent with his town behavior.
    I agree with most of this but another thing about Jeen (admittedly based on my own lesser experience) is that he usually have pretty solid plans and "Let's lynch Snow to decide if we should follow her plan or not" still strikes me as a weird one. Of course, maybe it's a smarter plan than I think or maybe Jeen just has a bad day, but it's still my main argument for voting him.

    That said, an alternate wagon probably wouldn't be a bad idea.

  21. - Top - End - #141
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Libro only popped into the thread to counterclaim
    I donít think Iíve ever come close to matching the high-volume posters such as yourself, at least not in recent history.

    The main reason for that is I have an unshakable habit of excessive self-editing. The poem post took ~ three hours. I took an hour composing this one. Between work this past week and personal issues I needed sleep last night. I didnít want to funnel more time into keeping pace with this speed-demon of a thread.

    an obvious fakeclaim.
    Wasnít obvious to me, especially given 2/3 of the previous WW games I played. I had somebody falsely claim my role in gac3ís Percy Jackson game earlier this year and Snowblazeís Evil Villains game last year (Smugglers and Scallywags instead had the *fun* of being a cult game). I was seeing red.

    I think Iíve managed to catch up on the discussion since my last post, but something feels fishy enough about the current wagons that Iím not shifting my vote just yet. No evidence just a gut feeling. Iíll aim to post again in 3-4 hours or so.
    "Ye are who ye are on all o' yer days. All o' em. Includin' that worst an' tha best. Ev'ry single one counts. All tha way ta tha end."

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  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    I won't say anything other than Mr Popo used to play here.

    He's also a good player.

    He's also going a lot harder than I think we're used to around here lmao.

    Migraine abating and I have some free time so I now gotta take gamestate reads and turn them into Medieval prose.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Just getting it out before I have to prosify everything:
    Libro is also town.

    Another thing:
    Popo should know that I can probably fake that opener as wolf.

    I suspect his read is more "These other people are probably scum so that puts you towny and you're doing initial reads" but still kinda meh.

    PSA:
    Popo will say "This person is definitely wolf" while he doesn't believe it that seriously. He uses certainty of statement to garner gamestate reads.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    bladescape: bladescape is fairly quiet and not putting forth too much to think about, but that strikes me as kinda weird. I've generally gotten an impression of activity from them in previous games, and now they're kinda quiet. Makes me nervous, but I don't really have anything I can point to as a weird take.
    I removed the hideous colour.

    Also given I've randed wolf all my games on this site since I returned so far you'd think "weird/different" would be a good thing.

    But then I guess Snow gave me a townread for being different last game and we all know how well that turned out. =P
    Last edited by bladescape; 2021-09-11 at 09:11 AM.
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  23. - Top - End - #143
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    JeenLeen is a bigger monster, but here, I have way, way more evidence to show you.

    <Snip>
    <QUOTE of jeen correcting me and asking for narrator confirmation >

    More mechanics talk.

    <Snip>

    "Odd, interesting, strange, weird" are all terms that wolves use instead of taking a stand as to whether someone is wolfy or villagery.

    Combined with explicitly not voting there, that's extra wolfy.

    <Snip>

    Preparing posts in advance is wolfy.

    <Snip>

    This is the wolfiest argument in the history of wolfy arguments.

    First: Snowblaze's plan is good and can help town and reads villagery.

    Then: The plan has some merit. Not saying it doesn't. But let's lynch Snowblaze to confirm Snowblaze is town, for no reason, and then continue to encourage townies who shouldn't claim day one to claim on day one.

    <Snip>

    Continually claiming to be confused, over and over again.

    This is pretend struggle, not natural behavior.

    <Snip>

    Instead of deciding for oneself if the plan is a good plan, we have to somehow kill the person who proposed it.

    Then we'd know if it was good?

    Because villagers never come up with specious plans which they have good intentions about but can seriously backfire, of course.

    There is no wolfier argument than "I think this person's ideas are good, we should yeet them to make sure the person proposing the idea is town, before we proceed."

    That is not even an accusation of being a wolf.

    But I tell you what, JeenLeen fighting machine, you think the idea is good, so let's execute YOU and see YOUR alignment before we proceed.

    That's my response to that.

    <Snip>
    <Directed at me and my suspects (which happened to include him)>

    You can yeet all four of them, in any order you please.

    That's only a dumb idea when there's a fourth wolf at this point.

    Now I can spend the next several hours going over how I town read each person in sequence, describing for you how in the blue heck I got so many villagers to begin with, but let's give people the quick summary.

    <Snip>
    I disagree about your interpretation of Jeens mech / clarification posts being bad for town. Especially the post where he made sure that the Princess can claim without using her power. It is important for everyone in the game to be on the same page regarding the actual rules. They are the law, so to speak. And if there is confusion about the law, you absolutely should ask an authoritie. The narrator in this case.

    I disagree about the part of
    "Odd, interesting, strange, weird" are all terms that wolves use instead of taking a stand as to whether someone is wolfy or villagery.

    I think it's pretty normal to be insecure about day 1 reads and asking for a second opinion. In fact, this seems more natural than your behavior, but I think those are different approaches to the game.
    Same thing, but to a lesser degree, about preparing posts.


    But now, there is the real problem with Jeen.
    He was willing to arrest someone who made a plan that could be risky in order to check if this plan was good. That's stupid.
    It would give the traitors time to plan and change the basic premise of the plan. It would add additional complications to the plan, like the risk of accidentally losing personal important to the plan. You want to test a plan in a way that is not useful for testing the validy of the plan while simultaneously weakening the plan.

    I don't blame anyone being confused about things that are meant to be confusing. But being confused is not a positive thing either.

    So I can agree with this plan. Vote Jeen now and get a flip. Best case, we get a wolf. Worst case, we will still have some vote movement to analyze day 2.




    I am glad you are going to explain your town reads some more. I only skimmed them by now, I think the post will be big enough already.
    I promise I will read them properly and make my mind up about them by the time I actually move to my computer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Dearest,

    It pains me to bring such word to your ears, but the Queen and Princess have come to conflict now. I find myself, even now, embroiled in such politics, although I long for the estate on which we shared so many years. But, alas, duty calls and as such I have but to provide council and participation in this playground of paranoia as noble and servant alike narrow their eyes at each other and attempt to root out those who follow the Queen's way.

    Of such, of course, I have but a perspicacious mind. Many acknowledge it, but I find myself ill-inclined to put such strenuous effort upon my own brain when I have other matters to attend to. Still, perhaps informing you of my situation and beliefs will find an ease that not only are my discoveries kept safe, but that you may live vicariously through my words and perhaps experience the daily discussion and investigation yourself.

    Though the paranoia is but tedious.

    Of good news to share, it seems that an old friend has returned. Count Popo, if you recall him from his visit to our estate. He grows weary with life but still musters spryness I envy and an energy and vigour I cannot hope to match with my now aching bones. He has seemed good to be around thus far, but I know his wily words are difficult to distinguish and risk much in considering him perhaps a safe friend. I will of course gladly work with him, but his words are of poison should he harbour affection towards the Queen, and I must analyse each missive from him within such consideration. One thing that perhaps abates my concern is how their viewpoint matches mine at times.

    Of similar virtue, a lovely chamber-maid who bears the name of Snow. She has perhaps been the most enthusiastically ardent in her attempts to defend the Princess, and I cannot help but find sincereness in her pleas. There is little concern I have of her to be one of a more fluid integrity, and I cannot help but thing she is of sound mind and astute observation. I cannot help but attribute her insistent defense of the Princess is a perfect elaboration on how our dear Princess has touched the minds and hearts of the common folk, of which she is a most courageous supporter.

    Alongside her, the Countess Libro is of utmost virtue, if I am to believe the titles. Though I am not one for much pomp and vigour, I do note that of much recent history that title has been one that has aligned itself with the Princess' cause. I find it unlikely that they would bring such valour to her highnesses name while also harbouring ill-will. I refuse to believe such loyalty would be betrayed by venom.

    There is also the matter of the poet and playwright Xi, of which I cannot help but swoon in awe of their creative prowess. Of course, their obvious loyalty to the Princess is of import as well, but perhaps I am too blinded by their words and wit to concern myself with the more trivial or political matters regarding them.

    I have more concerns of the accountancy of Gac. A willful man, he has pleaded forgetfulness in the face of the royal court, and I cannot help but wonder if this were perhaps a ruse. I am of little mind to hang one such as him over such a small violation of social etiquette, but I must keep such concerns alive, and not let such information to die in the drains of our memories.

    But most of my concerns dwell at the feet of Jeen from house Leen. Marquis Leen is of great concern, whose arguments flit between concern that the young servant Snow's plan comes from a place of ardour or a place of devious trickery. I am most concerned that he suggested such a thing as to trial Snow, as if we could not investigate the quality of her plan without knowing her allegiance.

    More-over, their reaction to suspicion in light of their opinions has not roused much sympathy in my heart. I would be fine seeing them and their family hang, for the good of the Princess and those that serve her.

    Forever yours,

    With as much love as the starlight sky dares bequeath upon these mortal eyes,

    Asterion 'Blade' Feneris, of the Moonlit Scape


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Popo View Post
    It matters not. Neither of us is the cat this time. I doubt you will be the bringer of my end in either manner of passing because I too have respect for your considerable abilities.

    I doubt you are either disloyal or so foolish.
    This is a hilarious post if you know the original context this is referencing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    If my experience tells me anything it's that it's not as open/close as it looks right now.

    Guarantee one of Jeen/Gac is red tho.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm tempted to make a case on R_A for memes.

    (Context: As wolf last two games I cased R_A D1 and tried to flip them.)
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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    A few notes:

    I donít necessarily agree with every aspect of Mr Popoís cases, but I agree with his conclusions; I independently think Jeen/gac3/BW have all been wolfy to some extent.

    Iím not as confident on the townreads of bladescape or Xihirli as he is, I think both could fake their posts so far as wolves. Plus theyíre both always wolves, going by recent statistics.

    And itís Batcathat, not Batthecat. Speaking of whom, if you want an alternate wagon, why not start one yourself? (Just... ignore the unholy mess that is the grammar of that sentence.)

    Yeah. Itís probably not this easy - a rule I made for myself a while back was ďif you think youíve solved the game on day one, youíre wrongĒ. But I also think itís too early to be re-evaluating and tinfoiling, and thereís a pretty good chance Jeen is a wolf (I was just going to say the fact they havenít posted recently doesnít look great, then I remembered they said in recruitment theyíd be less active on weekends.)

    So Iím okay with the gamestate as a whole rn - this will probably be my last post before EOD so I wanted to make that clear.

    Also Iím overdue another piece of RP.


    The servant was being noticed, now. The Count, or Priest, trusted her, another noble praised her ďsound mind and astute observationĒ, and someone had suggested she could be a conspirator. Which, secret or no secret, she certainly was not.

    The agreement seemed to be that her accuser was wrong, and perhaps a conspirator themselves. All seemed well - or relatively, considering the situation. Which meant that something was going to go horribly wrong very soon. That was always the way with these things.

    Still, she hummed a merry tune to herself as she prepared the nobles' rooms for the night. For now, at least, there was peace and calm.
    I have returned.

    Werewolf games won: 8
    Werewolf games lost: 5
    Games as town: 8
    Games as neutral: 2
    Games as wolf: 3
    Games narrated: 1
    Deaths: 6

    I have no clue what Iím doing, but you still shouldn't trust me.

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  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Sure, Iíll go for one. When in doubt, butcher the silent, right?

    EmmyNecromancer

    On mobile, else I would have included a letter fragment.
    Last edited by Xihirli; 2021-09-11 at 08:52 PM.
    Spoiler: Quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zar Peter View Post
    Supagoof took the most blows and incidentally took exactly the same damage Xihirli inflicted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silent_Interim View Post
    Xihirli: Being a better target since 2015.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    Xihirli, bastion of murder and betrayal.
    Quote Originally Posted by BasketOfPuppies View Post
    Wow I missed a lot today. So, kill Xihirli?
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Nobody else is gonna be right behind me, right now. Only Xihirli.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    If Xi and I agree some more, I will start to doubt my own alignment!
    Quote Originally Posted by flat_footed View Post
    I still prefer to see you as the dagger hanging over us all, Xi.

  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    I donít necessarily agree with every aspect of Mr Popoís cases, but I agree with his conclusions; I independently think Jeen/gac3/BW have all been wolfy to some extent.
    I definitely agree about Jeen and at least partly about gac but I don't really have opinions either way on BW. I should go back and reread some stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    Iím not as confident on the townreads of bladescape or Xihirli as he is, I think both could fake their posts so far as wolves.
    Indeed, if being wolf buddies with them last game taught me anything, it's that both of them are scary good at playing townies. Though I still get a town feel from Xi and I agree with whoever said blade is acting differently this game (last game he was driving the discussion a lot more, for one thing) which might be a good sign. So neither of them would be my first choices for either town or wolf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowblaze View Post
    Yeah. Itís probably not this easy - a rule I made for myself a while back was ďif you think youíve solved the game on day one, youíre wrongĒ. But I also think itís too early to be re-evaluating and tinfoiling, and thereís a pretty good chance Jeen is a wolf (I was just going to say the fact they havenít posted recently doesnít look great, then I remembered they said in recruitment theyíd be less active on weekends.)
    Yeah, my biggest worry is that we lynch Jeen and he flips town. If that's the case I'll start doubting everything.

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Vote Count:
    Batcathat (1): Supagoof
    Supagoof (1): gac3
    Mr Popo (3): Libro, JeenLeen, Book Wombat
    JeenLeen (5): Batcathat, Snowblaze, bladescape, Mr Popo, AvatarVecna
    EmmyNecromancer (1): Xihirli

    Not voting (3): EmmyNecromancer, rogue_alchemist, Rogan

    Hopefully nothing wrong.
    Last edited by Book Wombat; 2021-09-11 at 11:37 AM.
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  29. - Top - End - #149
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    I don't think I'll get anywhere with my analysis until I have more concrete data (lynch/night results) to work with, so I'll be leaving my vote where it is and seeing what happens.
    "Ye are who ye are on all o' yer days. All o' em. Includin' that worst an' tha best. Ev'ry single one counts. All tha way ta tha end."

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  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: Love Letter Mafia

    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    Sure, Iíll go for one. When in doubt, butcher the silent, right?

    EmmyNecromancer

    On mobile, else I would have included a letter fragment.
    As much as I like you, Xi, you won't convince me to vote for someone with literally 0 posts and therefore 0 connections to any other player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Book Wombat View Post
    Vote Count:
    Batcathat (1): Supagoof
    Supagoof (1): gac3
    Mr Popo (3): Libro, JeenLeen, Book Wombat
    JeenLeen (5): Batcathat, Snowblaze, bladescape, Mr Popo, AvatarVecna
    EmmyNecromancer (1): Xihirli

    Not voting (3): EmmyNecromancer, rogue_alchemist, Rogan

    Hopefully nothing wrong.
    Missing my vote, but I didn't spot anything else to be wrong. But I didn't check everything, so everybody active should take a look to see if their vote is placed correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    But now, there is the real problem with Jeen.


    Unfortuanatly, I had some short notice change of plans, so I won't be able to be active for the next 4 hours. But I will check in again before going to bed. Don't know for sure how long, might depend on the level of activity here.
    Sorry about that.
    Spoiler: I'm a seer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unavenger View Post
    All the discussion of how weird the half-hour start is seems weirdly prescient, in retrospect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rogan View Post
    Can I use my prediction of the half an hour being used to set up Factional chats as proof I am the Seer?
    Quote Originally Posted by rogue_alchemist View Post
    only IRL, not as in game proof, as we all know that recruitment threads don't count for making IG decisions

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