New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 169
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    No, the second movie falling flat was 100% the Wachowski Sisters decision making in that movie, don’t give them a pass on that architect scene.
    I'm not giving them a pass, but I still disagree with "100%".

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    ...Do I really need to explain why the movie making money is important? Especially a big budget, special effects driven one like this movie seems to be? Even if the director would be fine if it doesn't succeed financially because they made ART! I amd very certain the people who funded it feel VERY differently. And if the director wants to make more movies and make more art, she needs their support.

    So yes, driving off potential customers isn't just dumb or bad, its bad-dumb.
    Watering down your message to try and be all things to all people can be just as bad. Winter Soldier had a clear stance regarding themes like state surveillance and trusting authority, and it didn't mind potentially losing those who held an opposing view.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tail of the Bellcurve
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    No, the second movie falling flat was 100% the Wachowski Sisters decision making in that movie, don’t give them a pass on that architect scene.
    The Architect scene is hands-down the most challenging and interesting part of Reloaded, and a really excellent piece of film making to boot. If it had been more of that, and less of endless tedious fist fights, I'd have loved the movie.
    Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
    When they shot him down on the highway,
    Down like a dog on the highway,
    And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.


    Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    I like it. It looks like its almost a soft restart of the series where we get to enjoy a lot of the classic scenery and where Neo has to relearn who he is and what he can do. The main reason i didnt like the second and third was that neo was basically god in the matrix. There was no real path, it just went from "I know kung fu" levels of standard behavior to "Now I am god." With nothing really in between discovering he is The One and being able to do anything. This looks like it may involve more of that in between that I would have enjoyed a lot more in the second film. He has these abilities but he seems to be still figuring out how to do them.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Dragonus45's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville Tennessee
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    The Architect scene is hands-down the most challenging and interesting part of Reloaded,...
    That is what The Architect scene was supposed to be yes, and the monologues intention of deconstructing the flaws of the first films themes just didn't execute well.

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    and a really excellent piece of film making to boot. If it had been more of that, and less of endless tedious fist fights, I'd have loved the movie.
    This is where I hard disagree, that scene is tedious and and boring and even as someone who is interested in what it has to say I struggle to really pay attention to it when I rewatch the film.
    Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
    If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    Hopefully Lana and the studio are confident enough to really lean into the trans allegory this time.
    I don't hope for that. The benefit of the looser version is that it works as metaphor for a variety of things. Doubling down on the allegory would just make the whole thing narrower and less relatable to most viewers. Beside, the Wachowskis are now out, their struggle was public, the reality behind the fiction is known. What purpose would doubling down on a fictionalized allegory have? If they want to make a point of transgender issues, they can, get this, have a real trans person on the screen and talk about those issues directly.
    Last edited by Vahnavoi; 2021-09-10 at 11:01 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ramza00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    This is where I hard disagree, that scene is tedious and and boring and even as someone who is interested in what it has to say I struggle to really pay attention to it when I rewatch the film.
    Why one fails is often tedious and boring. Likewise the whole point is to make the Architect be a condescending [censored]. Neo was attacking the concept of The Crystal Palace, and thus this makes Neo Dostoevsky‘s The Man from the Underground, the insane man who defies common sense. If Smith is Neo’s mirror who is not headed, then the Architect is the person Neo is rebelling against for he is cold and condescending.

    The problem is “choice”
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-09-10 at 11:56 AM.
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    I personally think the He Who Remains speech from Loki was the Architect speech done right.

    As far as trans-ness, I don't want to be beaten over the head with an anvil either. But some attempt at refocusing the red pill/blue pill allegory back to its roots would be nice too.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ramza00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    ...Do I really need to explain why the movie making money is important? Especially a big budget, special effects driven one like this movie seems to be? Even if the director would be fine if it doesn't succeed financially because they made ART! I amd very certain the people who funded it feel VERY differently. And if the director wants to make more movies and make more art, she needs their support.

    So yes, driving off potential customers isn't just dumb or bad, its bad-dumb.
    A world where you can't offend anyone for they are irrationally mad about things if you offend them is a sterile world.

    Just like it would be a sterile world if there is no point to fighting Smith for might makes right. The parents of Sati, the child program in movie 2 and 3, risk everything to save their daughter, to live, even if offended other peoples sensibilities. Is this irrational or rational, does it matter, it is a choice and the source is love?

    An artist has the right to say I live, I exist, even if that makes other people angry. Even if they, the angry ones, will get perma-mad. In a world you can't do this, then Smith might as well had won. There is a reason why Neo fights Smith, and Neo is fighting for people like Sati and Zion, strangers, even if his reason for living (which is Trinity) is now gone.

    -----

    "We can never see past the choices we don't understand." (there are 4 other variants of this quote the Oracle uses) Perhaps the director chooses to offend people who are so mad about trans people, and this is a rational choice on the director, for the director does not care if some people are angry with their money. Money is not the only thing that is important to her in her life.

    A false balance can be more toxic than unbalancing "it" and making some people angry. (it is the answer to the choice you have made Callos, but not the choice the director has made.)
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Honestly, it's difficult to have faith in the Wochowsky (Wachowsky? Wochowski? I have no idea how to spell that) when they haven't made a single good movie in the last 20 years...

    The original Matrix sequels were pretty bad, and since then, the siblings have written/directed "masterpieces" such as Speed Racer, The Invasion, Cloud Atlas and... Jupiter Ascending! Oooph... It certainly doesn't look like they got better over time.

    Sense8 had a interesting premise, but wasn't executed very well, IMO.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2021-09-11 at 02:14 AM.
    Homebrew Stuff:

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Dragonus45's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville Tennessee
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Honestly, it's difficult to have faith in the Wochowsky (Wachowsky? Wochowski? I have no idea how to spell that) when they haven't made a single good movie in the last 20 years...

    The original Matrix sequels were pretty bad, and since then, the siblings have written/directed "masterpieces" such as Speed Racer, The Invasion, Cloud Atlas and... Jupiter Ascending! Oooph... It certainly doesn't look like they got better over time.

    Sense8 had a interesting premise, but wasn't executed very well, IMO.
    Speed Racer is an unironic master piece, and they produced Ninja Assassin which was exactly the movie that it said it was going to be in the name.
    Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
    If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ramza00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Honestly, it's difficult to have faith in the Wochowsky (Wachowsky? Wochowski? I have no idea how to spell that)
    Wachowski

    You could have looked that up if you are asking the question though 🙃
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Speed Racer is an unironic master piece, and they produced Ninja Assassin which was exactly the movie that it said it was going to be in the name.
    To each their own, I suppose... Speed Racer has one really cool fight scene... But other than that I found the movie to be... Meh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Wachowski

    You could have looked that up if you are asking the question though 🙃
    True... But then again, I'll probably forget how to spell it again in 15 min. So, no biggie.
    Homebrew Stuff:

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Sense8, Speed Racer and Cloud Atlas were fantastic. Vastly superior to Reloaded and Revolutions anyway. So I can see a positive trajectory in their work.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ramza00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Adds V for Vendetta being good to PsyRen's list.
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    I don't have a problem with the concept of a Matrix 4. The reason a Neo exists is because the Architect has never made a stable Matrix which all humans will accept. There is an 'unbalanced equation', growing discontent within the Matrix which culminates in a Zion and a Neo who resets the system.

    Six times before, Zion was destroyed and Neo reset the system. Time #7, Zion was not destroyed and the red pills were released, while the Matrix stabilized with the blue pills who, like Cypher, would rather live in a virtual reality dream world than in the postapocalyptic real world.

    Be that as it may, the equation was still not balanced, which meant that in a generation the Matrix would again become unbalanced, and there would again be a Neo to restore it.

    Which would be ... right about now, really.

    The first Matrix movie was a work of art. The second two were distinctly meh. I'm hopeful that the Wachowski brothers can tell a story worth watching, even if they are my diametric opposites in political and spiritual matters. For myself, I find only listening to people who think just like I do, reinforcing my own preconceptions, quite boring. I know how *I* think. I want that thinking challenged.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Paris, France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Six times before, Zion was destroyed and Neo reset the system. Time #7, Zion was not destroyed
    Five times before, and time #6.

    In Revolutions, the Architect tells Neo that this is the sixth version of the Matrix, and that it will be the sixth time the machines destroy Zion.

    Be that as it may, the equation was still not balanced, which meant that in a generation the Matrix would again become unbalanced, and there would again be a Neo to restore it.
    Indeed, although my bet at the moment is that Resurrections will follow the same Neo we are already familiar with. I say this because:
    • The trailer shows the machines healing Neo.
    • The new Matrix began differently, the old Zion was not destroyed, and the machines might not know what to expect from the next big anomaly, so they are keeping the One they know.

    I also get the feeling that, far from the bum the first set pictures seemed to suggest, Thomas has been reinserted into the system as somebody wealthy and respected. Ironically, what Cypher was asking for himself.

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I don't have a problem with the concept of a Matrix 4. The reason a Neo exists is because the Architect has never made a stable Matrix which all humans will accept. There is an 'unbalanced equation', growing discontent within the Matrix which culminates in a Zion and a Neo who resets the system.

    Six times before, Zion was destroyed and Neo reset the system. Time #7, Zion was not destroyed and the red pills were released, while the Matrix stabilized with the blue pills who, like Cypher, would rather live in a virtual reality dream world than in the postapocalyptic real world.

    Be that as it may, the equation was still not balanced, which meant that in a generation the Matrix would again become unbalanced, and there would again be a Neo to restore it.
    I mean the conclusion of the third movie seemed to be that Mankind and the Machines were finally at peace again and that the Matrix would no longer be needed.


    I'm hopeful that the Wachowski brothers
    Wachowski sisters, they came out publicly as transwomen some time ago.
    Forum Wisdom

    Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Paris, France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I mean the conclusion of the third movie seemed to be that Mankind and the Machines were finally at peace again and that the Matrix would no longer be needed.
    The Machines still need plugged humans for electricity. Or processing power, as I hope the new movie will "retcon back" into the story.

    Which I think is compatible with the peace, because even during the war Zion let humans choose the blue pill and stay inside the Matrix, which 99.9% of them did.

    It is more that Machines would previously not tolerate how "those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster", but now they have to accept the ever growing population of Zion.

    Wachowski sisters, they came out publicly as transwomen some time ago.
    And only one sister, Lana Wachowski, is working on the new movie.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Sense8, Speed Racer and Cloud Atlas were fantastic. Vastly superior to Reloaded and Revolutions anyway. So I can see a positive trajectory in their work.
    No accounting for taste, I guess...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Adds V for Vendetta being good to PsyRen's list.
    This one really shouldn't count, honestly... Their contribution was pretty minor, by all accounts.
    Homebrew Stuff:

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Raleigh NC
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    I mean the conclusion of the third movie seemed to be that Mankind and the Machines were finally at peace again and that the Matrix would no longer be needed.
    I watched the movies same as you. My conclusion at the end of movie 3, when the Architect said "they would be freed", he was specifically referring to the red pills and the people of Zion. There are uncounted millions of people still plugged in, and they would violently reject any attempt to take them out. They would be nothing but a headache and a burden for the people of Zion. Like Cypher, they would never cease wanting their old lives back and would demand them. So it would not be an act of charity to free the blue pills, even if the machines did not still need them.

    So my read of the end of Matrix 3 was: Zion would thrive, the Matrix would continue. Both redpills and agents would still operate within the Matrix. From time to time, some people will be unable to thrive in the Matrix, in which case they would be redpilled to new lives in Zion. I can even imagine a world where agents and redpills work together to identify misfits and transition them to new lives in the real world. Thus, redpills thrive, and the Matrix is more stable since it has a safety valve to let off pressure.


    But that wouldn't be the end of conflict. You'd still have individual redpills trying to use their in-matrix powers to be little gods inside the Matrix, in which case both machines and redpills would be well advised to arrest and banish the rogue actors out of the matrix. Likewise, you would have rogue programs both in the real world and in the Matrix. In which case, Redpills and Agents could cooperate as law enforcement agencies might cooperate through interpol to identify malefactors and contain or eliminate them.

    And all would live happily ever after.. if it were not for that 'kink' in human nature that makes us forever discontent. There's a theological term for this which is out of forum scope. As it is, it's a more stable Matrix than the one that existed before the Matrix trilogy.

    The fact that humans still prove difficult, necessitating a new Neo to re-stabilize the situation, is still plausible. No structure with humans in it ever endures permanently. We can, however, face the task in our time and hand on a good starting point to the next generation when it comes their turn to face the contradictions of human existence. With or without machines.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."

    -Valery Legasov in Chernobyl

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Paris, France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I watched the movies same as you. My conclusion at the end of movie 3, when the Architect said "they would be freed", he was specifically referring to the red pills and the people of Zion. There are uncounted millions of people still plugged in, and they would violently reject any attempt to take them out. They would be nothing but a headache and a burden for the people of Zion. Like Cypher, they would never cease wanting their old lives back and would demand them. So it would not be an act of charity to free the blue pills, even if the machines did not still need them.
    This.

    I can even imagine a world where agents and redpills work together to identify misfits and transition them to new lives in the real world.
    Redpills and Agents could cooperate as law enforcement agencies might cooperate through interpol to identify malefactors and contain or eliminate them.
    There was one point where the Wachowskis considered The Matrix Online, an MMORPG, to be the canon sequel of the trilogy.

    Everyone played a red pill, but would not necessarily follow orders from Zion, instead choosing to work alongside the agents of the Machines or the exiles of the Merovingian. And while I never played it myself (or any other MMO for that matter) I know there were a bunch of weird storylines, including Morpheus getting angry and more forceful toward blue pills.

    No clue if Lana Wachowski will pay that game any mind while making the new movie.

    And all would live happily ever after.. if it were not for that 'kink' in human nature that makes us forever discontent. There's a theological term for this which is out of forum scope.
    Wish I knew what that word is. Anyway, I was looking for a way to use that reaction image, and well that's one.


  22. - Top - End - #82
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    ...

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Watering down your message to try and be all things to all people can be just as bad. Winter Soldier had a clear stance regarding themes like state surveillance and trusting authority, and it didn't mind potentially losing those who held an opposing view.
    Is it watering down the message though? Truth be told, even being much more aware of trans issues now than I was when the Matrix came out, I still don't really see a trans message in the Matrix. There's a lot of messages there to be honest but, to be more specific, I don't see a specific link between the blue pill/red pill analogy and being trans. That's not to say that such an interpretation is impossible just that one of the many reasons it was adopted was because it was a very universal analogy which in my opinion was a very good thing. It IS open to interpretation and thus it has a lot more relevancy and enduring power than if it was specifically linked to to just the director's intention.

    In essence, I think you water down the analogy by linking it so overtly to a single message and, more importantly, you lose nothing by leaving it unchanged and using it as it is. I'm not saying don't use the blue pill and red pills as they were originally used in the Matrix, they very much should what I am saying is going a step above and beyond that to 'reclaim it' or to take shots at how people use it now doesn't help in any capacity and can only hurt the movie and the analogy itself. It only serves to agitate.

    Winter Soldier handled its stance quite well in my opinion because while it very clearly takes a side on the theme its presenting, that state surveillance and unquestioning trust of authority is bad, it also presents some positives of that as well and has a beloved character (Nick Fury) be the advocate for you. Where it not for the whole Hydra using the murder-air-fortresses thing, you actually have an interesting set up to think and question about it. If the helicarriers were in a trustworthy Shield's hands that is used as Fury intends it, are they a good thing? Does the fact Hydra set it up and clearly planned to abuse them once mean the entire idea has no merit or is it just another point in Cap's argument that so much power shouldn't be in anyone's hands? There is nuance to it...up until the Nazi death cult reveals it still exists, haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Sense8, Speed Racer and Cloud Atlas were fantastic. Vastly superior to Reloaded and Revolutions anyway. So I can see a positive trajectory in their work.
    I wouldn't say Speed Racer is fantastic...but I will say it is very, very enjoyable and a delight to watch, and a point in Lana's favor.
    Warriors & Wuxia: A community world-building project focused on low-magic wuxia/kung-fu action using ToB.

    "These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2011

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Originally Posted by Eldan
    Urgh. You know, my immediate reaction when I heard there was a matrix 4 was "This is unnecessary. 2/3 matrix movies are already bad, and a sequel decades later can't improve it".

    …this trailer has nothing I want to see. They put so much focus on the effects and martial arts scenes, except those aren't remotely new or interesting anymore. It all looks so... done. Done a hundred times by other movies.
    Pretty much this.

    The first movie was brilliant. The second was a reasonably entertaining action movie, and the third…doesn’t bear thinking on.

    And as others have noted, this looks like every other superhero movie these days. Neo and the Ten Rings just doesn’t grab me.

    Originally Posted by Saintheart
    ...but the sequence with the Tengu monks in that movie was awesome.
    Wait, there were tengu monks?

    I only managed about ten minutes before I quit. But when were the tengu monks?

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Perth, West Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Wait, there were tengu monks?

    I only managed about ten minutes before I quit. But when were the tengu monks?
    Neo John Wick Kai had to get proper swords for the 46 ronin he was allied to, and he figured the best place to do that was from the tengu monks who had raised him as a child and who, despite him not being tengu, decided it was a cool idea to teach him shadowy Weeaboo Wuxia fighten and stuff and then let him leave to wander the world.


  25. - Top - End - #85
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GnomePirate

    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    United States
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    I am very interested if Lana Wachowski will continue to pack philosophy themes into the new Matrix. The first Matrix was really based on Plato's the Cave and Descartes "Evil Demon" thought experiment. Except Descartes never got to use Kung Fu against his Evil Demon. Matrix 2 and 3 are a discussion of free will vs determinism. And it's not clear which won out in the end.

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Perth, West Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
    I am very interested if Lana Wachowski will continue to pack philosophy themes into the new Matrix. The first Matrix was really based on Plato's the Cave and Descartes "Evil Demon" thought experiment. Except Descartes never got to use Kung Fu against his Evil Demon. Matrix 2 and 3 are a discussion of free will vs determinism. And it's not clear which won out in the end.
    Hello, moviegoer. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although watching this trailer has reduced you by at least a quantum of brain cells, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my Easter Eggs you will understand, and some you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be "What is Neil Patrick Harris doing in a role for which he is clearly stunt casting and really not suited," you may or may not realise it is simultaneously the most irrelevant.

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ramza00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Hello, moviegoer. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although watching this trailer has reduced you by at least a quantum of brain cells, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my Easter Eggs you will understand, and some you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be "What is Neil Patrick Harris doing in a role for which he is clearly stunt casting and really not suited," you may or may not realise it is simultaneously the most irrelevant.
    Neil Patrick Harris is going to scream “this is my world now” and then start doing a musical number.
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Dr.Samurai's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    ICU, under a cherry tree.
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Callos_DeTerran View Post
    Is it watering down the message though? Truth be told, even being much more aware of trans issues now than I was when the Matrix came out, I still don't really see a trans message in the Matrix. There's a lot of messages there to be honest but, to be more specific, I don't see a specific link between the blue pill/red pill analogy and being trans. That's not to say that such an interpretation is impossible just that one of the many reasons it was adopted was because it was a very universal analogy which in my opinion was a very good thing. It IS open to interpretation and thus it has a lot more relevancy and enduring power than if it was specifically linked to to just the director's intention.

    In essence, I think you water down the analogy by linking it so overtly to a single message and, more importantly, you lose nothing by leaving it unchanged and using it as it is. I'm not saying don't use the blue pill and red pills as they were originally used in the Matrix, they very much should what I am saying is going a step above and beyond that to 'reclaim it' or to take shots at how people use it now doesn't help in any capacity and can only hurt the movie and the analogy itself. It only serves to agitate.
    I agree with this sentiment. I did not know about the trans allegory until I read this thread. It also did not occur to me when I learned of the Wachowski's transitions years back.

    That said, I think what people were saying is that it was supposed to be this, but the studio got in the way. My hope is that the story remains cohesive with the rest of the franchise and doesn't become something else because the writer/director wasn't able to tell their original story. But if that does end up being the case, hopefully it is done well.
    Winter Soldier handled its stance quite well in my opinion because while it very clearly takes a side on the theme its presenting, that state surveillance and unquestioning trust of authority is bad, it also presents some positives of that as well and has a beloved character (Nick Fury) be the advocate for you. Where it not for the whole Hydra using the murder-air-fortresses thing, you actually have an interesting set up to think and question about it. If the helicarriers were in a trustworthy Shield's hands that is used as Fury intends it, are they a good thing? Does the fact Hydra set it up and clearly planned to abuse them once mean the entire idea has no merit or is it just another point in Cap's argument that so much power shouldn't be in anyone's hands? There is nuance to it...up until the Nazi death cult reveals it still exists, haha.
    My takeaway from Winter Soldier is that even people doing the right thing can have really bad ideas. So yeah, Nick Fury thinks these are necessary to take down major threats. The problem with these heli-carriers is the assumption that the people in power will always value the same things that you value, and use the heli-carriers as you intended. The movie has this already be the case by revealing Hydra has been there all along.

    But the more likely scenario is that after Nick Fury's tenor, someone else runs SHIELD and has a slightly different take on the heli-carriers and uses them a little differently, and so on and so forth. Granting these types of overt authoritarian powers always assumes they will always be controlled by a trustworthy and virtuous individual with sound judgement, etc. But how often are people seeking positions of power these types of people? And how can we guarantee that they always are? (Answer is we can't and that's why these things are bad ideas.)

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Titan in the Playground
     
    lord_khaine's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    A world where you can't offend anyone for they are irrationally mad about things if you offend them is a sterile world.
    Likely one of the most relevant comments about modern media of all kinds.
    And for that matter modern culture. I really think the drive to not wanting to offend -anyone- of any leaning, has ruined a lot over the last 10 years.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Ramza00's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Matrix 4 / The Matrix Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
    I agree with this sentiment. I did not know about the trans allegory until I read this thread. It also did not occur to me when I learned of the Wachowski's transitions years back.
    Just want to clear some stuff up since there has been some wrong information (by accident I bet), and misleading stuff in this thread.

    It was Lilly Wachowski not Lana who has talked about it being a Trans Allegory the Red Pill, aka not the director for Matrix 4.

    Backstory which I am purposefully keeping it brief

    Famous CEO in May 2020 was mad about there being a Covid pandemic and that there were shutdowns and restrictions on said CEO’s factories designed to save lives of that factories workers. It was a month long meltdown of said famous CEO, and one day he tweeted “Take the Red Pill” in said tweet. Before and after that tweet there is all this political stuff I am not going to get into due to forum rules. Then a media celebrity who is related to a politician quote tweeted it in an affirmative way that was political, and Lilly said some profanity in response that was 4 words. If you want more info google it, I will not say more due to rules about Politics.

    So a single incident. Yet both the CEO and the Lilly response went viral for both are famous people and this was Month 2 and change of the pandemic even though the interaction was brief. People then project lots of stuff based on a single incident.

    —————

    In August 2020 Lilly did a 4 minute Q&A for some questions than fan submitted that were written for the Netflix Film Club which is on YouTube. Link here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adXm2sDzGkQ

    In the Q&A Lilly says yes it was a Trans metaphor, also it is art and things are not just 1 to 1. Furthermore Lilly says she enjoys evolution and change and part of Art is once out there it means things to other people and the creators do not control it, for art is non linear. She enjoys how people find their own meaning and is glad it resonated with some people.

    There is several questions in that 4 minute video and I am not capturing it all, not going to try to capture it all, just watch the video. I am making clear the artist is not saying there is a specific meaning and all other meanings are invalid.

    —————

    A reminder it is the other Sister Lana Wachowski who is directing The Matrix Resurrections. Who knows what that future story will tell.
    Stupendous Man drawn by Linklele

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •