Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

[russdm]

So, Amazon Prime is doing the Wheel of Time series; the trailer is on Youtube and Amazon Prime.

It looks...Interesting. Don't know anything more about it. About the series being made on Amazon Prime, as I have read the whole book series.

[Rynjin]

Everything I've seen on it sounded good for a while. Casting was pretty good, with the exception of Perrin (who always had a more Hispanic or dark skinned Mediterranean cast in my head), trailer seemed solid, and the show seemed to get that while Rand is the main character of the SERIES, he's not really the main character of the FIRST BOOK, as they go out of their way to obfuscate which of the three boys is special (the final answer being: all of them) and Lan and Moiraine try to keep everyone safe from all the dark and spooky **** out there.

Then I heard they were going to try to adapt all of book 1, along with parts of books 2 and 3 into one 8 episode season, and my hopes started to diminish a bit. While the series can use a lot of trimming, most of that trimming would need to take place between books 6 through 10, maybe 4 and 5 as well at a real stretch. Books 1-3 are dense with plot and I can't see how chopping them up to make a single 8 episode season is going to turn out well.

[Ramza00]

So, Amazon Prime is doing the Wheel of Time series; the trailer is on Youtube and Amazon Prime.

It looks...Interesting. Don't know anything more about it.

Abandon all hope while you are still innocent. It is a book series of 4.3+ million words, with 1,379 total POVs done by 147 different POV characters. For comparison Lord of the Rings plus the Hobbit over 4 books is 576k words.

It is “baroque” with its amount of unnecessary excess detail so it will be interesting how a tv series will adapt all of that.

[russdm]

Abandon all hope while you are still innocent. It is a book series of 4.3+ million words, with 1,379 total POVs done by 147 different POV characters. For comparison Lord of the Rings plus the Hobbit over 4 books is 576k words.

It is “baroque” with its amount of unnecessary excess detail so it will be interesting how a tv series will adapt all of that.

Ummm......

I actually the whole books series from start to finish, book 1 to book 13/14/15/WhenEverItEnds.

I will say this about the Book Series:

Robert Jordan was a moron. The books kept adding whole new plots to it, and all bunches of stuff. The books just dragged on and were a struggle to get through. Brandon Sanderson's were pretty good and featured some good stuff and good pacing; pacing is something that Robert Jordan's books kind of missed out on.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well they didn't make the same mistake of Game Of Thrones and at least the series is finished before they make the TV adaptation. In general, I don't have high hopes for book adaptations, but we can be assured that if the series goes bad it's because the TV people screwed up.

My main concern is actually that R Jordan's weird gender hang-ups and stereotypes are totally out of place in this day and age.

[Gnoman]

Everything I've seen on it sounded good for a while. Casting was pretty good, with the exception of Perrin (who always had a more Hispanic or dark skinned Mediterranean cast in my head), trailer seemed solid, and the show seemed to get that while Rand is the main character of the SERIES, he's not really the main character of the FIRST BOOK, as they go out of their way to obfuscate which of the three boys is special (the final answer being: all of them) and Lan and Moiraine try to keep everyone safe from all the dark and spooky **** out there.

Then I heard they were going to try to adapt all of book 1, along with parts of books 2 and 3 into one 8 episode season, and my hopes started to diminish a bit. While the series can use a lot of trimming, most of that trimming would need to take place between books 6 through 10, maybe 4 and 5 as well at a real stretch. Books 1-3 are dense with plot and I can't see how chopping them up to make a single 8 episode season is going to turn out well.

They are not doing all of Book 1 in Season 1. Portions are being moved to Season 2. This is straight from the creators

[Rynjin]

Have a link? What I was talking about was from an interview but I did only skim it.

[Murg]

I have read the books up until the last two.

I was not impressed with the trailer.

I have to question how they think they'e going to fit a massive 14 book series into a TV show? I mean just doing Book 1 and completely ignoring every minor character and subplot could take them two seasons. Then they've just got 13 (larger) books to go!

How are any of the dozens of major named characters going to get enough screen time to matter? Well, maybe I am being too pessimistic; I will hold off final judgement until the series comes out.

[Maelstrom]

I have read the books up until the last two.
I have to question how they think they'e going to fit a massive 14 book series into a TV show? I mean just doing Book 1 and completely ignoring every minor character and subplot could take them two seasons. Then they've just got 13 (larger) books to go!

Honestly I think TV is the only real way to doing epic series such as these, especially with technology progressing as it has.

[Precure]

Finally a thread to discuss Wheel of Time.

[Rodin]

Have a link? What I was talking about was from an interview but I did only skim it.

Most of what we know seems to come from some AMA sessions. https://wot-prime.fandom.com/wiki/Ra..._wrap_May_2021

A few key comments from there are that elements from Eye of the World will be cut and used in later seasons, there will not be one season per book (with most of the cutting happening to the bloat in the middle of the books), and that he dodged a question on what exactly the books covered in Season 1 and 2 will be.

The final bit of info is speculative but intereseting. There are 8 episodes in season 1, with the final 2 episode titles being hidden. However, the 6th episode is titled "The Flame of Tar Valon", which is one of the opening chapter titles for The Great Hunt. This seems to indicate that either Rand's meeting with the Amyrlin is moved forward in time or we will have completed Eye by episode 6 and will be moving into Great Hunt territory by then.

And let's be honest. As much chaff as there is to cut from the later books, there's quite a lot the TV series can skim over in the early books too. Rand and Mat's adventures on the road to Camelyn are not that important to the greater narrative, and most of the chasing of Padan Fain in book 2 can be excised. A lot of the time the girls spend in the Tower is very cuttable as well - you need a certain amount of info to establish Tower politics, but most of their arc in the Tower is them discussing how to hunt Black Ajah and griping about being punished for one infraction ore another.

What I think we're most likely to get is Eye of the World largely intact, but with some of the more important setup plots from Great Hunt moved forward. Great Hunt and Dragon Reborn then get folded into one season, as there's not a lot happening in the world at large (at least, not on page) during those books. At that point you can slow down and properly address the plot in books 4-6, then start ruthless slashing and burning the kudzu that springs up until the plot starts moving again half a dozen books later. I'd expect 7-8. 9-10, and 11-12 to each be folded into one season, not necessarily evenly. There was one book (Winter's Heart? Path of Daggers? Way too long since I read them) that was pointed out as being almost entirely pointless in terms of moving the plot forward. That book may just get cut entirely apart from a handful of key scenes being pulled out.

[Seerow]

The final bit of info is speculative but intereseting. There are 8 episodes in season 1, with the final 2 episode titles being hidden. However, the 6th episode is titled "The Flame of Tar Valon", which is one of the opening chapter titles for The Great Hunt. This seems to indicate that either Rand's meeting with the Amyrlin is moved forward in time or we will have completed Eye by episode 6 and will be moving into Great Hunt territory by then.

I think it's bold to assume that the Eye isn't either cut, or one of the plot elements shuffled forward into a later season.


It was always really weird that the group went into the blight and fought a number of forsaken plus who Rand thinks is the Dark One.... all at the end of book 1. This is one of the first things I expected to be majorly changed.

[Rodin]

I think it's bold to assume that the Eye isn't either cut, or one of the plot elements shuffled forward into a later season.


It was always really weird that the group went into the blight and fought a number of forsaken plus who Rand thinks is the Dark One.... all at the end of book 1. This is one of the first things I expected to be majorly changed.

Possibly, though I don't know when it would make a reappearance. The Eye is essentially a private Callandor, something that gives Rand a massive temporary power buff and lets everyone who sees him use it (including himself) know he's The Dragon.

The other things that come from the Eye are one of the Seals, the Dragon Banner (which gets used at the end of book 2) and The Horn of Valere (which is the Macguffin driving the entirety of book 2).

It's hard to push it back further than that. You need the Horn for book 2, so if you don't get it at the Eye you have to find it somewhere else. By book 3 the Eye is irrelevant - Callandor serves the same purpose and is reusable.

[Gnoman]

Finally a thread to discuss Wheel of Time.

Getting the show discussion out of the Lets Read thread is a good thing.

[Mechalich]

The final bit of info is speculative but intereseting. There are 8 episodes in season 1, with the final 2 episode titles being hidden. However, the 6th episode is titled "The Flame of Tar Valon", which is one of the opening chapter titles for The Great Hunt. This seems to indicate that either Rand's meeting with the Amyrlin is moved forward in time or we will have completed Eye by episode 6 and will be moving into Great Hunt territory by then.

The former seems much more likely than the later, since it's really just a matter of juggling some logistics. The novels chose to bypass Tar Valon in Book One because they take the ways from Caemlyn and then moves the Amyrlin up to Fal Dara to meet with the main cast. That move creates a delay in several of The Great Hunt's events because a significant portion of the cast then has to ride back to Tar Valon from Fal Dara. It seems reasonable that the show will have the characters go to Tar Valon first, bypassing Caemlyn (none of the Trakand siblings have been cast yet), and then jump to the Eye from there.

The whole incident at the Eye is such an obvious season climax event that it's almost impossible to imagine it being used for any other purpose. WoT has many flaws, but Jordan was absolutely a master of ending his books with a bang.

[Psyren]

Since we have a show thread now let's throw up the trailer:

The whole incident at the Eye is such an obvious season climax event that it's almost impossible to imagine it being used for any other purpose. WoT has many flaws, but Jordan was absolutely a master of ending his books with a bang.

It's notable that the one book where he didn't do this (Crossroads) is often seen as one of the worst if not the worst.

I think it's bold to assume that the Eye isn't either cut, or one of the plot elements shuffled forward into a later season.


It was always really weird that the group went into the blight and fought a number of forsaken plus who Rand thinks is the Dark One.... all at the end of book 1. This is one of the first things I expected to be majorly changed.

I don't think it's weird. The Eye is the best explanation for why the Shadow, despite thousands of years of searching, failed to locate Lews' stash. It's also a great way to foreshadow what Rand can eventually do without having him deal with the taint yet. And of course it also explains how Rand, despite only just having begun to channel, is able to body three (well, two) Forsaken.

[Anteros]

If the rumor that they're doing the first 3 books in one season is true, I don't see how they can possibly do it justice in 8 episodes. I understand the material needs trimming, but to compress it that much I don't see how it would even make sense.

Also, a lot of the "filler" or cuttable content is really what makes the series unique. Jordan makes his world breathe in a way that no other author really replicates. A lot of people don't like it, and that's completely understandable, but it's what makes the series unique.

[anjxed]

Plus most of the fat that needed to be trimmed seemed to be from book 7 onwards

[Ashen Lilies]

If the rumor that they're doing the first 3 books in one season is true, I don't see how they can possibly do it justice in 8 episodes. I understand the material needs trimming, but to compress it that much I don't see how it would even make sense.

As mentioned, they're not compressing all of the first three books into one season. The first season is going to be largely book 1, but with some events and themes from books 2 and 3 pulled forward. I wouldn't be surprised if some New Spring made it in too, given Moiraine and Lan's central billing. And correspondingly, some parts of book 1 are getting pushed back, Caemlyn in particular. The Trakands weren't cast for Season 1 (but there's some leaks/rumor mill stuff that Ceara Coveney has been cast as Elayne for season 2, based on her appearing in some photos with other cast members).

From the above linked collection of quotes:

Season One will cover Book One, plus some of Book Two and even Book Three. But also not all of Book One, as some of it is in Season Two. Cryptic enough?

We'll have to see, but I very much expect Season 1 will still end at the Eye. I'm interested to see how they handle it, since I've always had mixed feelings about it. It's a great climax setpiece for the one book, but it always felt like a weirdly isolated one-and-done macguffin that never really shows up or gets mentioned again outside of that passing mention in TSR.

Brandon Sanderson said a neat thing a while back that I like, which is that you can think of the show as another "turning of the Wheel". There look to be a lot of changes to stuff, and the showrunners seem to be taking a lot of liberty to shuffle things around significantly to make things work for TV, which so far I'm feeling pretty optimistic for.

[Psyren]

Plus most of the fat that needed to be trimmed seemed to be from book 7 onwards

Ahh the slog. Let's hope they take a hedge trimmer to it.

Brandon Sanderson said a neat thing a while back that I like, which is that you can think of the show as another "turning of the Wheel". There look to be a lot of changes to stuff, and the showrunners seem to be taking a lot of liberty to shuffle things around significantly to make things work for TV, which so far I'm feeling pretty optimistic for.

This or a portal stone world are honestly the best ways to think about it. This is a setting where the same 7 ages repeat endlessly after all.

[Dire_Flumph]

As someone who was deep into this series in the 90's I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with, but my expectations are that this will be a loose adaption at best. Doing a streamlined and pared down run through book one, then taking bits and pieces of other books as inspiration, but largely creating their own narrative is my guess. Getting the whole series filmed even in trimmed down fashion would require this to become a "Game of Thrones" style phenomenon to happen at least, and I don't see that in the cards. Amazon isn't even following through completing the Expanse series, so I'm expecting whole books worth of plot to end up on the chopping block even if they do make it to the conclusion.

Consider me hyped though to watch this. Especially want to see what they come up with for the Ways.

[Blackhawk748]

Well, Moraine looks good from casting, and I assume that's Egwene with Rand? It's been over a decade since I read the series but I always thought of her as a dirty blonde, then again I somehow missed the fact that all of the Seanchan speak with Texas style drawls or that Tuon was black, so very possible I missed relevant info there.

Though doesn't Rand have red hair? I get not really bothering, but I thought that he did. Or was it a bunch of Aiel who did? Again, been a while.

It does seem like they aren't even trying for the Aes Sedai ageless face thing, and I can't say that I blame them.

[Ashen Lilies]

The showrunner specifically called out the ageless faces and color-changing Warder cloaks as effects that won't be making it to the show just because they'd be hideously expensive to handle/a poor use of the effects budget. CGI alteration that needs to be done for every frame a certain character appears, sometimes multiple characters at a time? No thanks.

[Blackhawk748]

The showrunner specifically called out the ageless faces and color-changing Warder cloaks as effects that won't be making it to the show just because they'd be hideously expensive to handle/a poor use of the effects budget. CGI alteration that needs to be done for every frame a certain character appears, sometimes multiple characters at a time? No thanks.

I forgot about the cloaks, and I was wondering how they'd do the face thing. Not doing it is perfectly fair.

[Ashen Lilies]

A few of Judkin's comments on budget constraints I found particularly illuminating. Spoiler tagged in case people want to be surprised by changes to what we will and won't see.

Spoiler

Show

VFX that require you to touch every frame that a character appears on screen are not great uses of money. So don’t expect to see CGI faces for all Aes Sedai

I love Lan's cloak in the show. But much like Aes Sedai agelessness, if it's an effect that's going to cost a fortune every time a character is on screen, it's a bad use of money. Unless you want to see all of S1 in the Winespring Inn. Then you can have color changing cloaks :)

The writers room floor is littered with my tears. Truly though, I don't want people to be unprepared for how different the show is to the books. To do a proper adaptation, it has to be. As a thought exercise, just imagine we can only do four of the cities from EoTW. So from Emonds Field, Taren Ferry, Baerlon, Shadar Logoth, Whitebridge, Four Kings, Breen's Spring, Caemlyn, Fal Dara, which do you choose? What are the knock-on effects for character and story from the ones you don't go to? Which characters haven't met each other now and how can you reconnect them? We have amazing writers and hugely helpful support in Brandon and Harriet to tackle these changes. But they're not small. Gird your loins, my friends.

This is perhaps the biggest source of changes for us. Even with the massive amount of money Amazon has kindly given us to bring this world to life, to go to as many unique cities/villages/locations as they do in the books is simply impossible. We have chosen to do a few places extremely well (both culturally and with production design) instead of doing dozens of places cheaply and badly. This results in many changes that have huge ripple effects (if you can't go to Baerlon, do you still meet Min? Do you still encounter the Whitecloaks? Do you still have dreams of Ba'alzamon? Etc). I'm betting that most things that feel the most unnecessarily changed to people from the books (even if they're hugely separated from that specific location) will be borne out of a location specific change.

[KillianHawkeye]

The showrunner specifically called out the ageless faces and color-changing Warder cloaks as effects that won't be making it to the show just because they'd be hideously expensive to handle/a poor use of the effects budget. CGI alteration that needs to be done for every frame a certain character appears, sometimes multiple characters at a time? No thanks.

That makes sense, honestly. There are certainly going to be enough other special effects to be seen.

[Psyren]

A few of Judkin's comments on budget constraints I found particularly illuminating. Spoiler tagged in case people want to be surprised by changes to what we will and won't see.

Great context from Rafe, what's the source for these comments?

Consider me hyped though to watch this. Especially want to see what they come up with for the Ways.

Different but related, I'm really excited for how they handle The Matrix Tel'aran'rhiod. Also, I'm expecting the Aiel Waste to be in here in a future season and really want to see that.

Well, Moraine looks good from casting, and I assume that's Egwene with Rand? It's been over a decade since I read the series but I always thought of her as a dirty blonde, then again I somehow missed the fact that all of the Seanchan speak with Texas style drawls or that Tuon was black, so very possible I missed relevant info there.

Though doesn't Rand have red hair? I get not really bothering, but I thought that he did. Or was it a bunch of Aiel who did? Again, been a while.

It does seem like they aren't even trying for the Aes Sedai ageless face thing, and I can't say that I blame them.

I forget all the supporting quotes, but the Dusty Wheel podcast showed how (cover art notwithstanding) brown Egwene and Nynaeve can/do align with what we're told in the books.

Some of the changes are definitely more contradictory however, like Siuan, but I don't mind those either.

[Ashen Lilies]

Rodin posted a wiki link further up that's collected all of Judkins' answers during various AMAs on social media (twitter, instagram, etc.)

Again, for posterity: https://wot-prime.fandom.com/wiki/Rafe_Judkins/Quotes

As to minor details I'm looking forward to: whether or not they'll cast Americans for the Seanchan :V

[Rodin]

Brandon Sanderson said a neat thing a while back that I like, which is that you can think of the show as another "turning of the Wheel". There look to be a lot of changes to stuff, and the showrunners seem to be taking a lot of liberty to shuffle things around significantly to make things work for TV, which so far I'm feeling pretty optimistic for.

Douglas Adams also insisted that every adaptation of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy be substantially different, as there was no point in simply adapting the same story over and over again.

I also came to this conclusion about The Witcher series. They pulled chronology from all over the books, as well as inventing new things for the show. I don't feel like the show suffered for it, as it pulled together what was originally a very fragmented narrative into a cohesive whole. If they do half as well with the Wheel of Time I'll be a happy camper.

[MammonAzrael]

This or a portal stone world are honestly the best ways to think about it. This is a setting where the same 7 ages repeat endlessly after all.

I can't describe what an incredibly hardcore move it would be to end this series with Rand dying and a voice whispering "I have won again, Lews Therin." I would have so much respect for that.