A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #1021
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    That would be somewhat inaccurate.
    Kudos to you for trying, but he admitted he's not even watching the show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velaryon View Post
    Watched episode 4 last night. Not bad. The most annoying thing is that when Liandrin mispronounces Nynaeve's name, she does so in the way that I pronounce it (I HATE the canon pronunciation of her name, it sounds bad to my ear and it doesn't look like how a name spelled that way should sound, at least to me). It's a minor thing, but I'm annoyed because that's how I wish it was pronounced all the time.
    I find it interesting because Liandrin's pronunciation is much closer to the (correct) Welsh pronunciation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    In the books the party stops in Baerlon and that's how Nynaeve is able to catch up. The show, by cutting this interlude, eliminates the time Nynaeve needs to reunite with the group and therefore her journey makes no sense.
    In the books, Nynaeve gets a much later start because she has to send word to Mavra Mallen in Deven Ride before following the party instead of immediately following their trail from the Trolloc cave. It evens out I'd say.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  2. - Top - End - #1022
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    That would be somewhat inaccurate.
    Spoiler: In brief
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    Rand stabs one with a spear from behind when it is distracted by his father.

    Nynaeve is being hunted by one and hides in a pond, it wades into the pond and starts stabbing around it, she emerges from behind it grabs its weapon from its belt (not the one in its hand) and stabs it.

    It might be also worth noteing that it has been established that Trollocs are scared of water (so it might be further distracted) but the scene does not seem to really make an obvious issue out of that.


    I have no real issue with either scene.
    That does sound much more reasonable than how I've seen others describe the scene.

    When I said Rand killed one on accident I was referring to the scene in the books.

    Edit: watched the 30 second clip of the scene in question on YouTube.

    First thought: why does this look like Xena? Wasn't that 20 years ago? I thought this show had a budget?

    Second thought: I'm definitely getting more predator vibes than scared villager from Nynaeve.

    Third thought: why does a 9 foot tall monster go down from a knife slash from a 140lb girl...who was also crouched? Why is the trolloc suddenly 4 feet shorter so she can stab it in a vital area?

    Yeah...the scene wasn't as bad as it could have been, but it certainly isn't anywhere close to being good. I'm not certain it's even in the same zip code.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2021-12-01 at 02:36 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #1023
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    I've been trying to figure out why I'm not really enjoying the show, and I think it's because of the three boys. I love the book versions of Rand, Mat, and Perrin, so for me, they were the three most important characters for the show to get right.

    But right now, none of the three boys are any fun to watch! Perrin is a self-hating wife-murdering mess and that's basically never going to get any better – even his identity as a blacksmith has been left out apart from a few implied references. Mat's been turned into a petty thief whose personality has been shaped by his awful parents, and he's only going to get worse as the dagger's influence grows. And Rand's character development has been hamstrung by their decision to leave out all of his most important moments from the books, so his entire identity revolves around Egwene (and let's be honest, did ANYONE read the Eye of the World and think that the Rand/Egwene romance was their favourite part?)

    It's just a downer to watch. All of the innocence and positivity of the three boys seems to have been deliberately cut out so that the show can be more "dark and edgy". I end up feeling worse after watching each episode than before it.
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  4. - Top - End - #1024
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Perrin is a self-hating wife-murdering mess
    There is a lot to be said about Perryn and the inclusion of a wife, but calling him a murderer seems a bit harsh.

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by The Patterner View Post
    There is a lot to be said about Perryn and the inclusion of a wife, but calling him a murderer seems a bit harsh.
    In fairness:
    Spoiler
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    One should not swing ones axe without knowing what one is swinging at - calling it murder, manslaughter, collateral damage, justified homicide etc is largely semantic

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    In fairness:
    Spoiler
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    One should not swing ones axe without knowing what one is swinging at - calling it murder, manslaughter, collateral damage, justified homicide etc is largely semantic
    Absolutely not. The difference is intent. And apart from legal differences this makes BIG difference in characterisation. If the show acknowledges this remains to be seen, though.

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    In fairness:
    Spoiler
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    One should not swing ones axe without knowing what one is swinging at - calling it murder, manslaughter, collateral damage, justified homicide etc is largely semantic
    That's definitely not semantics, no. And taking the time to perfectly ascertain his target in a split-second life or death situation could have just as easily gotten him killed.

    Not to mention,
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    he's Ta'veren, so she was probably screwed no matter what, from a purely in-universe perspective. I wonder if that would be recognizable in a court in Caemlyn or Tar Valon?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Your Honor. The defendant, my client, is one of the most powerfully Ta'Veren people the Pattern has ever spun out. The events of his life are largely outside of his influence, free will little more than the illusion of choosing whether he would like wine or ale with dinner. His wife's death was a deliberate part of the Pattern and thus he was merely the instrument, no more guilty than the axe. Take a care that it does not decide that your thread must end to ensure the continued Weaving."

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
    "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, Your Honor. The defendant, my client, is one of the most powerfully Ta'Veren people the Pattern has ever spun out. The events of his life are largely outside of his influence, free will little more than the illusion of choosing whether he would like wine or ale with dinner. His wife's death was a deliberate part of the Pattern and thus he was merely the instrument, no more guilty than the axe. Take a care that it does not decide that your thread must end to ensure the continued Weaving."
    I mean, isn't this
    Spoiler: ToM Book 13
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    pretty much how his ACTUAL trial went j/k
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Having people help him flee the country before an investigation can be held probably isn't a good look.

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Having people help him flee the country before an investigation can be held probably isn't a good look.
    I'm sure all the Trollocs and Fades would've been polite enough to wait for the conclusion of the inquiry to clear him
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    You know one thing I HATE about this show? And it has nothing to do with the content at all: the music.

    The main theme/"danger music" is godawful. Or more accurately, it's consistently MISUSED. It's horror movie strings that consistently play in action scenes. Sucks all the excitement out, but also doesn't add tension like I imagine is the intent because it's completely out of place.

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    In fairness:
    Spoiler
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    One should not swing ones axe without knowing what one is swinging at - calling it murder, manslaughter, collateral damage, justified homicide etc is largely semantic
    Do you actually believe this, or are you just being contrarian?

    Edit to add:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    You know one thing I HATE about this show? And it has nothing to do with the content at all: the music.

    The main theme/"danger music" is godawful. Or more accurately, it's consistently MISUSED. It's horror movie strings that consistently play in action scenes. Sucks all the excitement out, but also doesn't add tension like I imagine is the intent because it's completely out of place.
    I'll have to pay attention to this the next episode, haven't really noticed the music.
    Last edited by The Patterner; 2021-12-02 at 02:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Hrm, over on https://wot-prime.fandom.com/wiki/Season_1#Episodes the description for the final ep reads as Season finale. For twenty years, Moiraine has dreamed and worked towards this moment. But she can't stop the Dragon Reborn from seeing the appeal of the Dark.

    Wait, what? The appeal of the dark?

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Well, Ishmael does make an appeal to Rand along the lines of "Hey, come over to the dark side...we have cookies! And you won't go insane, that's good too."

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus View Post
    Hrm, over on https://wot-prime.fandom.com/wiki/Season_1#Episodes the description for the final ep reads as Season finale. For twenty years, Moiraine has dreamed and worked towards this moment. But she can't stop the Dragon Reborn from seeing the appeal of the Dark.

    Wait, what? The appeal of the dark?
    Consider how they described ep4: Moiraine struggles with uncertainty while Lan struggles with their new companion. Rand wonders about Mat and Mat starts to wonder at himself. Egwene and Perrin take their first steps down a different path. An incredible new power is unleashed on the world.

    I guess the last part is about Nynaeve, but that don't make sense since there is nothing new about her power, it's just strong.

    So, maybe take the descriptions with a grain of salt?

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Based on Dana the Darkfriend, they seem to be making more of an effort to explain how Sha'tan could be attractive. A better effort by Ishamael, Lanfear, or another Forsaken to seduce the Dragon might well fit.

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    What do people think? Is there any sort of consensus on whether this is good.

    I read the first book, and thought it was quite good, but I didn't like it enough that I was driven to read the rest.

    Do you think I'd like the tv show?

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    What do people think? Is there any sort of consensus on whether this is good.

    I read the first book, and thought it was quite good, but I didn't like it enough that I was driven to read the rest.

    Do you think I'd like the tv show?
    Big shrug from me, I have no clue what you like.

    The show is decent as fantasy shows go. 7/10 kind of show in my books. But the first book is also a 7/10 kind of book as well, it's really only later that the series kicks it into turbo overdrive with the crazy awesome ****.

    As a non-book-reader (mostly) you'll be less annoyed by narrative changes?

    But ultimately the only way you can really tell is if you watch it.

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    What do people think? Is there any sort of consensus on whether this is good.
    Certified Fresh 85% Critic 80% Audience

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    I read the first book, and thought it was quite good, but I didn't like it enough that I was driven to read the rest.

    Do you think I'd like the tv show?
    Can't really answer this one. If you already have Amazon Prime Video I'd say give it a go, if you don't then getting it just for this when you're not sure about the genre might not be the best move. Of course, they have a bunch of other good shows too (Expanse, woohoo).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnoman View Post
    Based on Dana the Darkfriend, they seem to be making more of an effort to explain how Sha'tan could be attractive. A better effort by Ishamael, Lanfear, or another Forsaken to seduce the Dragon might well fit.
    Yeah - and hell, even
    Spoiler: TGH Book 2 spoiler/E4 spoiler
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    Liandrin was making some reasonable points about Logain instead of being her usual mustache-twirling man-hating straw lesbian self as Jordan wrote her.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Well, Ishmael does make an appeal to Rand along the lines of "Hey, come over to the dark side...we have cookies! And you won't go insane, that's good too."
    And didn't he attempt to entice Rand with his adoptive mother? Who was then practically never mentioned in the books again?

    ...Book 1 definitely could have used more time in the oven
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-12-02 at 10:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  21. - Top - End - #1041
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    That rotten tomatoes link is misleading. It's gotten by averaging the rating for the most recent episode with the season average. The show's actual current average rating is about 70.

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Last I checked, the IMDB rating (generally a lot more useful than RT) was around 7.5. So, very similar to the ratings of most other adaptions of large fantasy book series – Shannara was 7.2, Legend of the Seeker 7.6.

    I predicted before the series came out that it was going to land squarely in the big basket of average-quality fantasy adaptions, and so far it's looking as though I was right.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and the final book in the series, Risen, is out as of December 2021. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    That rotten tomatoes link is misleading. It's gotten by averaging the rating for the most recent episode with the season average. The show's actual current average rating is about 70.
    "The series' Average Tomatometer is the sum of all seasons divided by the number of season scores with a tomatometer score." I don't see anything about most recent episode there.

    Even if you were right though, that just confirms what some of us have been saying, that the show has been picking up steam as it goes on if the recent episode(s) could move the needle that much over the opening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Last I checked, the IMDB rating (generally a lot more useful than RT) was around 7.5.
    I find this average calculation suspect considering that IMDB has the episodes as follows: E1 7.5, E2 8.1, E3 8.1, E4 9.1.

    It suggests to me that the "series score" is just pulling the first episode rather than averaging all of them. This is backed up by Game of Thrones doing the same thing, those last two seasons should have definitely pulled the average down.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-12-02 at 12:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  24. - Top - End - #1044
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "The series' Average Tomatometer is the sum of all seasons divided by the number of season scores with a tomatometer score." I don't see anything about most recent episode there.

    Even if you were right though, that just confirms what some of us have been saying, that the show has been picking up steam as it goes on if the recent episode(s) could move the needle that much over the opening.



    I find this average calculation suspect considering that IMDB has the episodes as follows: E1 7.5, E2 8.1, E3 8.1, E4 9.1.

    It suggests to me that the "series score" is just pulling the first episode rather than averaging all of them. This is backed up by Game of Thrones doing the same thing, those last two seasons should have definitely pulled the average down.
    And the season score is gotten by....? {Scrubbed} This information is all freely available and easily obtained.

    You can just click on the "tomatometer" and see that the actual critic review score average for the series is 7.25 out of 10, which somehow magically equates to a score of 85%. Audience score is 80%, but isn't part of the calculation. There's a reason these metrics are very careful to use arbitrary terms like "tomatometer rating". If you have lots of different arbitrary ratings, you can plaster whichever one you want on there.
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-12-04 at 05:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    You can just click on the "tomatometer" and see that the actual critic review score average for the series is 7.25 out of 10,
    Feel free to link to that then, because clicking through the 85% just takes me to the individual reviews.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    you can plaster whichever one you want on there.
    I'm sure you'd have been making this exact point if the review scores were low too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    Scrub the post, scrub the quote
    Keep hoping for it to fail, you'll end up watching it eventually
    Last edited by Pirate ninja; 2021-12-04 at 05:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    I was both impressed and disappointed in episode 4.

    I think think the Nynaeve reveal was epic and well done. What pisses me off it it should have been

    Spoiler
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    Rand.

    It's quickly looking like in their desire to push for girl power (of which there was plenty in the books), they've decided to undercut the lore by quite a bit.

    They've already reduced Rand to the dude that Egwene broke up with, and now they are making Logain seem weak compared to Nynaeve.

    Nynaeve was almost as strong a woman could be, but Logain was only a hair under Rand himself. Its not even a contest.

    Might as well make it so men can link and remove the distinction from saidar and saidin itself.


    Bleck. Disgusting.
    Last edited by Sivarias; 2021-12-02 at 02:43 PM.

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    amused Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm sure you'd have been making this exact point if the review scores were low too.
    I wonder what that movie from May is doing now that it is “free” on the subscription site.

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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Sivarias View Post
    Might as well make it so men can link and remove the distinction from saidar and saidin itself.
    Honestly? To an extent, yes, they should. Almost nothing the male channelers do in the books makes any sense.

    All they really need to keep is that women can't teach men* and vice-versa. That's it.

    *by which I mean, saidar-users can't teach saidin-users and vice-versa
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-12-02 at 03:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Honestly? To an extent, yes, they should. Almost nothing the male channelers do in the books makes any sense.

    All they really need to keep is that women can't teach men* and vice-versa. That's it.

    *by which I mean, saidar-users can't teach saidin-users and vice-versa
    Can you give me examples of them not making sense? I dont remember much specifics about male channelers versus female aside from the basics. Men cant link with each other, but tend to average stronger than women, which im assuming is some gender norm thing like women tend to work together men tend to be solo strong man types or whatever. And also the areas they specialize in tend to be different element wise than women. That sort of thing. When you say make no sense do you mean by their own established lore they break the rules? Or you just dont think the rules jordan wrote for them make sense?
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    Default Re: Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Last I checked, the IMDB rating (generally a lot more useful than RT) was around 7.5. So, very similar to the ratings of most other adaptions of large fantasy book series – Shannara was 7.2, Legend of the Seeker 7.6.

    I predicted before the series came out that it was going to land squarely in the big basket of average-quality fantasy adaptions, and so far it's looking as though I was right.
    It's definitely better than Shannara (which was hot ass, in a completely different way from the books) and Legend of the Seeker (which was fun, but very cheesy, and actually better than the books).

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