Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

[lord_khaine]

This isn't really unique. The numbers really got away from Jordan and Sanderson only boosted them further. The actual battle at the Field of Merrilor involves a truly mind-boggling number of combatants, possibly larger than any battle ever fought on Earth (the largest 'battle' in history is probably the Battle of Kursk from WW2, which involved upwards of 3 million combatants) and well beyond the ability of societies at this technological level to actually fight.

Kinda forgetting about gateways.
That as such put them far, far above our technological level when it comes to moving stuff around.

[Sapphire Guard]

You can't just snap your fingers and turn a heavy cavalry unit into skilled guerrillas overnight, that's just not an option.

Attacking massed channelers is something that hasn't happened since the Trolloc Wars 1000 years ago, Bornhald's fault is in not being prepared for something that he could not possibly be prepared for (he also doesn't know about raken because he has no way to know about them. He can't randomly assume to be on the lookout for flying lizards.). Everyone after him knows that those tactics don't work, because of what happened to him.

It's like Mat v Seanchan, they're not stupid, they just don't know about his new faster firing crossbows (and luckily have no damane)

The closest this world gets is false dragons against Aes Sedai, which is usually the likes of Logain alone v 6 Aes Sedai, nothing large scale (Also worth noting that the leads are all much more powerful than the average channeler)

Tarabon is already destroyed when Ituralde runs his campaign, he's doing it with bandits that are naturally good guerrilas and by then they have a good idea of what the Seanchan are capable of, he has much more information to work with.

Amadicia falls because they are hit without warning with the Children already in turmoil. Why do they have no warning? Because Niall is assassinated just before he can warn anyone, and the message he is holding happens to fall into a pool of spilled wine. They're essentially unlucky, being in the Two Rivers might have gone better if Fain hadn't kept sabotaging everything (See also: Elaida)

Niall has like three gut feelings in a long and storied career, and actually lost that battle (he was able to get out with his army intact

The numbers get away from the writers because it is basically impossible for one person to script plausible battles with real numbers, and it would be impossible for readers to understand it if they did.

[Psyren]

You can't just snap your fingers and turn a heavy cavalry unit into skilled guerrillas overnight, that's just not an option.

Attacking massed channelers is something that hasn't happened since the Trolloc Wars 1000 years ago.

1) You mean the heavy cavalry legion (two thousand men) that he snuck into Tarabon completely unnoticed? Yeah, Geofram has no experience with stealthy tactics at all.

2) Both of these sound like really good reasons to not charge in like a bull-goose fool attack. He knew about damane firsthand (having lost 50 of his men to just one of them) and he knew from interrogating the beaten villagers in Alcruna that they had plenty more where that came from. There are times to be the first person in 1000 years to try something and this definitely wasn't one of them.

[Corvus]

Another new clip - Moiraine's Quest.



Was LTT ever called the last Dragon in the book? I think he was just the Dragon, nothing else.

And it looks very much like they are trying to obscure who the Dragon Reborn is for those who haven't read it, even including Egwene as a possible candidate.

[Psyren]

I think her use of "last" there meant "previous" as opposed to "final." I agree that her phrasing almost makes it sound like a title though.

And yes, the increased focus on Egwene and even Moiraine's use of the gender-neutral "my mission is to find them" does seem like they're angling for a misdirect for newcomers. Interestingly, it seems like Egwene is sharing in some of their bad dreams on the road too, which I don't think was the case in EotW. If Ishamael is popping into her head as well, could that suggest that in this version, sometimes the Dragon can be female? I sure hope so.

Sidenote: I'm really loving the imagery in some of these shots. The butchered sheep in the shape of the Dragon's Fang, followed by the line of women walking as we observe them through a saidar-shaped hole in the rock - really great and creepy stuff.

[lord_khaine]

Overall surprisingly good.
I honestly had not expected to ever see the Wheel of Time in this quality.
Well its a minor nitpick how much empasis there is on the last part in dragon.
But i assume its just to try and avoid confusing viewers with low attention span.

Else it does not make sense with a female dragon in this turning of the wheel.
As it was a male dragon who sealed the Dark one. And is being reincarnated.

Actually it does not make sense at all, with what we know of legendary heroes bound to the horn.

[Ashen Lilies]

I think her use of "last" there meant "previous" as opposed to "final." I agree that her phrasing almost makes it sound like a title though.

And yes, the increased focus on Egwene and even Moiraine's use of the gender-neutral "my mission is to find them" does seem like they're angling for a misdirect for newcomers. Interestingly, it seems like Egwene is sharing in some of their bad dreams on the road too, which I don't think was the case in EotW. If Ishamael is popping into her head as well, could that suggest that in this version, sometimes the Dragon can be female? I sure hope so.

Sidenote: I'm really loving the imagery in some of these shots. The butchered sheep in the shape of the Dragon's Fang, followed by the line of women walking as we observe them through a saidar-shaped hole in the rock - really great and creepy stuff.

My thought is also that she could be intercepting the boys' dreams with an earlier manifestation of her Dreamer powers. This is fun!

[lord_khaine]

I like that explanation. Do hope they go with it.

[TheStranger]

Having read the books, we know that having a female Dragon Reborn would require revising a substantial amount of worldbuilding and major plot points (please let’s not restart the debate about whether that would be a good idea). But new fans don’t know that, so it makes some sense to tease the possibility that it’s actually Egwene. Though I assume a great many fans will have Rand as Dragon spoiled well before the reveal, so it may not be entirely effective. Though I guess a bunch of stuff in GoT still surprised people, so maybe the average viewer is better at avoiding spoilers than I think.

Aside from that, book Egwene does basically nothing in the whole first book and most of the second. Playing up her importance early in the show makes a lot of sense in general given how important she becomes later on. Whether that means teasing her as a possible DR, hinting at her being a Dreamer, or having Ishamael take an interest in her for her own sake, it’s really smart to set her up as a major character on par with the three boys.

[Psyren]

Overall surprisingly good.
I honestly had not expected to ever see the Wheel of Time in this quality.
Well its a minor nitpick how much empasis there is on the last part in dragon.
But i assume its just to try and avoid confusing viewers with low attention span.

Else it does not make sense with a female dragon in this turning of the wheel.
As it was a male dragon who sealed the Dark one. And is being reincarnated.

Actually it does not make sense at all, with what we know of legendary heroes bound to the horn.

I think it's a red herring and this cycle's Dragon will be a Saidin-user like Lews. But I also think that gender-unlocking constants of the Wheel (the Adversary, The Heroes of the Horn, Ishamael etc) is something worth doing.

Having read the books, we know that having a female Dragon Reborn would require revising a substantial amount of worldbuilding and major plot points (please let’s not restart the debate about whether that would be a good idea). But new fans don’t know that, so it makes some sense to tease the possibility that it’s actually Egwene. Though I assume a great many fans will have Rand as Dragon spoiled well before the reveal, so it may not be entirely effective. Though I guess a bunch of stuff in GoT still surprised people, so maybe the average viewer is better at avoiding spoilers than I think.

Aside from that, book Egwene does basically nothing in the whole first book and most of the second. Playing up her importance early in the show makes a lot of sense in general given how important she becomes later on. Whether that means teasing her as a possible DR, hinting at her being a Dreamer, or having Ishamael take an interest in her for her own sake, it’s really smart to set her up as a major character on par with the three boys.

Having THIS Dragon be female would entail a lot of rework, sure, but I don't think that's the same as saying ANY Dragon would. It's a title.

Agreed on playing up Egwene's importance being a good idea. In fact, giving her more to do early on could foreshadow some of her bigger skills later, like being a Culture Chameleon. (And of course, using her Dreams for some flashy cinematography.)

[Ashen Lilies]

Egwene, especially later on, has a very parallel character arc and serves as a pretty significant counterpoint and rival to Rand so playing up their early romance and elevating her standing makes a lot of sense.

[lord_khaine]

I think it's a red herring and this cycle's Dragon will be a Saidin-user like Lews. But I also think that gender-unlocking constants of the Wheel (the Adversary, The Heroes of the Horn, Ishamael etc) is something worth doing.

Except they are not constants, they are people.
That are spun in and out of the weave as they are born again and again.

Having THIS Dragon be female would entail a lot of rework, sure, but I don't think that's the same as saying ANY Dragon would. It's a title.

Well it both is and isnt a title. I mean when the white and black tower unites they can start calling their leader the Dragon, then we would have a female dragon if that would satisfy you.

But at the same time its not a random title, In the age of legend and in the 3rd age its one of the legendary heroes of the horn.
Who are the same soul reborn, and the creators champion in fighting the Dark One.

[Psyren]

Except they are not constants, they are people.
That are spun in and out of the weave as they are born again and again.



Well it both is and isnt a title. I mean when the white and black tower unites they can start calling their leader the Dragon, then we would have a female dragon if that would satisfy you.

But at the same time its not a random title, In the age of legend and in the 3rd age its one of the legendary heroes of the horn.
Who are the same soul reborn, and the creators champion in fighting the Dark One.

When I say "constant" I mean there appear to be certain immutable characteristics associated with that person's soul, not that they are literally the same individual every time.

The Dark One's Adversary being a saidar-user in a different turning of the Wheel (not necessarily this one) would be an example of something I would want to be possible.

[InvisibleBison]

As far as I know, the idea that a soul's gender and what sort of power it channels is constant throughout its reincarnations never actually appears in the books, so getting rid of it for the adaptation shouldn't be a problem.

[lord_khaine]

When I say "constant" I mean there appear to be certain immutable characteristics associated with that person's soul, not that they are literally the same individual every time.

The Dark One's Adversary being a saidar-user in a different turning of the Wheel (not necessarily this one) would be an example of something I would want to be possible.

Well no. Rand/Therin is a slightly different person in each incarnation.
And its impossible to say if in some turnings, or some ages, its a different hero than the dragon who are spun out to deal with the DO.
But it seems very clear the Dragon is Rands soul. And that should not change.

As far as I know, the idea that a soul's gender and what sort of power it channels is constant throughout its reincarnations never actually appears in the books, so getting rid of it for the adaptation shouldn't be a problem.

It kinda does. Interactions with the heroes of the horn certainly shows gender is a fixed characteristic of a soul.
Case in point, Birgittes past lives.

Well that and that unlucky implication we cant really discuss properly without the thread being locked down.

[Psyren]

Well no. Rand/Therin is a slightly different person in each incarnation.
And its impossible to say if in some turnings, or some ages, its a different hero than the dragon who are spun out to deal with the DO.
But it seems very clear the Dragon is Rands soul. And that should not change.

That's fine - the DO having other Adversaries, some of whom can be saidar-users and might even get different titles in their Age, would be great too.

As far as I know, the idea that a soul's gender and what sort of power it channels is constant throughout its reincarnations never actually appears in the books, so getting rid of it for the adaptation shouldn't be a problem.

It's not explicitly stated, no.

[TheStranger]

It's not explicitly stated, no.

It’s not, but as noted the reincarnations of the heroes of the Horn are consistent. Birgitte is always a woman, Gaidal Cain always an ugly man, etc. OTOH, they could easily be a special case - they’re archetypes more than people, perpetually reliving the same basic persona that got them bound to the Wheel in the first place. It’s entirely possible that ordinary reincarnated souls don’t have as strong a link to their previous lives.

Our only other points of comparison are Rand/LTT and the various reincarnated forsaken. Rand needed to channel saidin because LTT did (not 100% certain on that, but a saidar channeler in that role after a saidin channeler in the LTT role would be a very different turning of the wheel), and the forsaken aren’t really reincarnations, just returning a soul from the dead into an existing body with all memories intact. Neither tells us much about how souls are reincarnated in the ordinary course of events.

[Ashen Lilies]

Random thought I had inspired by this conversation: there's nothing that says Mat's head full of memories all needs to be dudes. They are in the books, as far as we know, but they don't have to be. The pattern we're given is that they're all soldiers, and all come in the 1000 year period between the Trolloc Wars and Artur Hawkwing, but this is a world where we see women soldiers exist.

Could be fun if Mat has distinct memories of being a woman (or several women) to sort through, on top of everything else.

[Psyren]

It’s not, but as noted the reincarnations of the heroes of the Horn are consistent. Birgitte is always a woman, Gaidal Cain always an ugly man, etc. OTOH, they could easily be a special case - they’re archetypes more than people, perpetually reliving the same basic persona that got them bound to the Wheel in the first place. It’s entirely possible that ordinary reincarnated souls don’t have as strong a link to their previous lives.

My point exactly - it's not explicit, but Jordan has heavily implied it. But even something as simple as having Ishamael consider Egwene as a possibility would be enough to improve that implication, even if they end up playing it completely straight afterwards (i.e. Rand.)

Our only other points of comparison are Rand/LTT and the various reincarnated forsaken. Rand needed to channel saidin because LTT did (not 100% certain on that, but a saidar channeler in that role after a saidin channeler in the LTT role would be a very different turning of the wheel), and the forsaken aren’t really reincarnations, just returning a soul from the dead into an existing body with all memories intact. Neither tells us much about how souls are reincarnated in the ordinary course of events.

No argument here.

Random thought I had inspired by this conversation: there's nothing that says Mat's head full of memories all needs to be dudes. They are in the books, as far as we know, but they don't have to be. The pattern we're given is that they're all soldiers, and all come in the 1000 year period between the Trolloc Wars and Artur Hawkwing, but this is a world where we see women soldiers exist.

Could be fun if Mat has distinct memories of being a woman (or several women) to sort through, on top of everything else.

They almost certainly should be, unless no women ever go visit the Finns, which we know is false since Aes Sedai and various Mayeners have been jaunting into Ghenjei for decades.

[Ashen Lilies]

We know at least one of Birgitte's past lives encountered (and died at the hands of) the Finns so Mat could feasibly even have (that one) Birgitte's memories.

Which would be hilariously awkward for the both of them if he did, actually. I can just imagine that conversation between them.

[Psyren]

It would but honestly, fighting alongside her and being connected to her as a Hornsounder are more than enough. Actually remembering being her might break them both

Also, if they can impart memories of the Heroes that would make Mat even more ridiculously OP than he already is! Imagine having Birgitte's archery on top of everything else

[Ashen Lilies]

Mat's already a Loki/Odin archetype, and both those gods are genderfluid as heck, so it would actually only reinforce the thematic ties to them if Mat got ahold of the memories of a bunch of women in addition to men, and his own outlook/presentation/relationship with his gender becomes more fluid as a result.

[Psyren]

You misunderstand - I'm totally 100% fine with Mat getting non-cismale soldier memories. Just not Birgitte specifically

(Of course, if that happened I wouldn't be bothered by it either)

[lord_khaine]

My point exactly - it's not explicit, but Jordan has heavily implied it. But even something as simple as having Ishamael consider Egwene as a possibility would be enough to improve that implication, even if they end up playing it completely straight afterwards (i.e. Rand.)

Its a rather contested stance if its actually an improvement, or the opposite.

Could be fun if Mat has distinct memories of being a woman (or several women) to sort through, on top of everything else.

It would not. It would rather go against the whole thing Mat had with the memories blurring to the point where he had trouble remembering where his own began and someone elses started.
If a significant fraction of those memories were of the wrong gender, then Mat would likely have it a bit easier seperating them.

At the same time. Im quite confident this would not happen.

[Traab]

I could see it being suggested at the start, because thats before we learn more about the cosmology of the world and its infinite cycles and how they work. I mean, does even morraine have that kind of knowledge about reborn souls and so on at the start of the series? Or does she learn about that stuff over time as well? So her and the rest being unsure makes sense because they dont know why it doesnt work that way yet. Then we get the big reveal and over time we learn with the rest of the characters how the universe works. What was the wording of the prophecy? I think it specifies twice and twice shall HE be marked, so that might be an issue. Wait, found it, it says,

“Twice and twice shall he be marked
twice to live, and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.”

So yeah, turns out it has to be a dude, unless thats a different prophecy im thinking of.

[Psyren]

I could see it being suggested at the start, because thats before we learn more about the cosmology of the world and its infinite cycles and how they work. I mean, does even morraine have that kind of knowledge about reborn souls and so on at the start of the series? Or does she learn about that stuff over time as well? So her and the rest being unsure makes sense because they dont know why it doesnt work that way yet. Then we get the big reveal and over time we learn with the rest of the characters how the universe works. What was the wording of the prophecy? I think it specifies twice and twice shall HE be marked, so that might be an issue. Wait, found it, it says,

So yeah, turns out it has to be a dude, unless thats a different prophecy im thinking of.

I could see Amazon throwing a bunch of "they" in the prophecies to preserve the mystery for newcomers, but won't be bothered if they don't.

Its a rather contested stance if its actually an improvement, or the opposite.

*shrug*

[Ashen Lilies]

You misunderstand - I'm totally 100% fine with Mat getting non-cismale soldier memories. Just not Birgitte specifically

(Of course, if that happened I wouldn't be bothered by it either)

Oh yeah, I got you completely. That last comment wasn't a response to you, just me spitballing my original idea further.

It would not. It would rather go against the whole thing Mat had with the memories blurring to the point where he had trouble remembering where his own began and someone elses started.
If a significant fraction of those memories were of the wrong gender, then Mat would likely have it a bit easier seperating them.

Would he? Or would his difficulty distinguishing which of his memories belonged him and which of his memories belonged to other men and which of his memories belonged to women cause his tastes to broaden and perception of his own gender to expand? Mat constantly wanting 'a bit of lace' as a coping mechanism for his abuse at the hands of Tylin. Mat constantly wanting 'a bit of lace' because he wore a really kickass dress with lots of lace once and he really liked that vibe. (Or was that me? No, must have been someone else. Can't have been me. Rand would have laughed at me. Nynaeve would have thought I'd gone funny. It was a really nice dress though.)

Robert Jordan even acknowledged the way in which identity and self-perception can change and be fluid in the text itself. Aran'gar/Halima has many flaws in terms of its representation of queerness, but one of the parts I actually like about her is that she was put in a female body as 'punishment' by the Dark One, and the other Forsaken considered it so, but once she was actually in there, the person that was once Balthamel thought to herself "you know what, I'm actually pretty okay with this". She actively remarks on how her tastes and her self-perception of what she could be has changed and adapted from someone who always saw themselves as masculine and heterosexual to someone who was willing to embrace newfound femininity and womanhood and shifting sexual desires, even if they fell into it by accident, and I always thought that initial peek into her mind was remarkably insightful. And then she becomes sexually predatory and mannish and Mat clocks her and oh no we're in TERF fever dream territory go back GO BACK.

[Rynjin]

I could see it being suggested at the start, because thats before we learn more about the cosmology of the world and its infinite cycles and how they work. I mean, does even morraine have that kind of knowledge about reborn souls and so on at the start of the series? Or does she learn about that stuff over time as well? So her and the rest being unsure makes sense because they dont know why it doesnt work that way yet. Then we get the big reveal and over time we learn with the rest of the characters how the universe works. What was the wording of the prophecy? I think it specifies twice and twice shall HE be marked, so that might be an issue. Wait, found it, it says,

So yeah, turns out it has to be a dude, unless thats a different prophecy im thinking of.

The Dragon Reborn also needs to be male because a lot of other setting details (eg. most or all male Channelers being referred to as "False Dragons) are built on that assumption.

[Ashen Lilies]

Incidentally, there's a bunch of new content up on the Prime site, under an 'Explore' tab on the Wheel of Time page. Character profiles for the E5 and Moiraine and Lan, an interactive map, and a timeline (both sparse for now, but they'll probably fill in as episodes drop - the Age of Legends looks neat, though!)

Justice for Abell Cauthon!

[Psyren]

The Dragon Reborn also needs to be male because a lot of other setting details (eg. most or all male Channelers being referred to as "False Dragons) are built on that assumption.

Three possibilities:

1) You could have that detail be specific to just these 2 Ages without changing anything about the story we're told. Each Turning, the same dude gets spun out and becomes named The Dragon right before the Bore is opened, dies, and gets Reborn in time to reseal it. Anyone else who tries to claim the title is a False Dragon. In all the other Ages, there either is no Dragon, or it's somebody else.

2) The same guy could be Dragon in all 7, but "The Dragon" is not the only Adversary who stands against the Dark One in every single turning.

3) Some combination or halfway point between these two variations.

Incidentally, there's a bunch of new content up on the Prime site, under an 'Explore' tab on the Wheel of Time page. Character profiles for the E5 and Moiraine and Lan, an interactive map, and a timeline (both sparse for now, but they'll probably fill in as episodes drop - the Age of Legends looks neat, though!)

Justice for Abell Cauthon!

They put Egwene's bio right after Moiraine's, and before Rand's. Interesting. All I can think is they're really playing up the red herring.

It's definitely not alphabetical order (Rand comes before Mat and Perrin) nor is it a "making all our female characters prominent" (Nynaeve is second to last, fittingly next to Lan.)

Oh, and the "fever dream" comment made me laugh out loud