Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

[Psyren]

And my point is that there’s a perfectly valid in-universe explanation that has no unfortunate setting implications, which you are ignoring.

If the memories were handpicked for Mat to make him the best possible super-general and still ended up univerally cishetmale that's even worse, as it implies that nobody outside that narrow band who ever went to Ghenjei could possibly have any tactical experience he could benefit from. There, acknowledged.

The fact that a fictional setting is not written to cater to your personal beliefs about gender and sexuality does not mean that the author is acting out of some combination of "indifference or malice", and the fact that other people see the world differently to you is not "bad".

And it is not the responsibility of every creator in the world to change their settings, books, characters, and storylines until they have your personal stamp of approval.

It's also not the responsibility of every adaptational showrunner to maintain regressive setting details to cater to your stamp of approval.

And I gotta tell you that fills me with dread. Because I could accept a certain degree of tinkering since that has to happen just in the process of bringing something to screen, but the idea that the show running actively wants to push the series to "push boundaries" makes me start worrying about them losing the forest for the trees and deciding to make a story that's not really about adapting anything anymore.

I genuinely don't understand how acknowledging "women were generals in this setting too, and at least one of them over a period of centuries may have been good enough at it to warrant inclusion in the gestalt genius" warrants filling anyone with "dread."

[Sapphire Guard]

Mat's memories are not randomly chosen (he has no alternate memories of being a child or growing up). There's no necessary implication that female soldiers don't exist, it could just as easily be the case that the Aelfinn looked through their stock of memories for 'adult male soldier' and filled in those gaps.

When Aviendha goes through the glass columns, she sees through the eyes of her female ancestors. When Rand goes through them, he sees through male ancestors. There is obviously no indication, intended or otherwise, that either of them only has ancestors of their own gender.

[Psyren]

Mat's memories are not randomly chosen (he has no alternate memories of being a child or growing up). There's no necessary implication that female soldiers don't exist, it could just as easily be the case that the Aelfinn looked through their stock of memories for 'adult male soldier' and filled in those gaps.

When Aviendha goes through the glass columns, she sees through the eyes of her female ancestors. When Rand goes through them, he sees through male ancestors. There is obviously no indication, intended or otherwise, that either of them only has ancestors of their own gender.

I don't have any objections with how the ter'angreal work. Ter'angreal are constructed by flawed humans after all; any implications there can just as easily be societal as metaphysical.

For a bunch of aliens (Outsiders? Aberrations? Fey?) to see such a clear metaphysical difference between human genders/orientations is a different matter however, it implies there is one. Which of course is exactly what RJ was implying, consciously or not.

(I can just picture the Eelfinn in the background riffling through their archive, stamping any gay general memories with a rainbow X and discarding them to the floor while Mat is yelling in the Old Tongue. "Yeah, let's not give him that one" "Agreed, no bromo" )

[TheStranger]

If the memories were handpicked for Mat to make him the best possible super-general and still ended up univerally cishetmale that's even worse, as it implies that nobody outside that narrow band who ever went to Ghenjei could possibly have any tactical experience he could benefit from. There, acknowledged.

That is exactly not what I was saying. My point is that Mat, specifically, is not in a position to benefit from other memories because they would be more disorienting than helpful. Or, if you prefer, that such a broad perspective would have made Mat not as charmingly oblivious as the Pattern needed him to be at times. My point is that Mat with different memories has a different character arc going forward and the Pattern gave him exactly the memories needed to have the arc he needed to have. The possibility (unconfirmed), that those are all cishetmale has no implications you don’t want it to have.

[Anteros]

I'm not sure the memories were picked with Mat's benefit in mind at all. I think they just grabbed whatever they had on hand to fill the gaps in his mind. Most likely his luck/ta'veren nature influenced what he got, combined with them mostly having memories from adventurous males on hand. If the ter'angreal had been somewhere like the Wastes or somewhere else where there are less traditional gender roles then they would have probably had memories from a broader selection, but Randland is pretty clearly an analogue for western Europe and their development seems to mostly follow along those lines.

I don't have any objections with how the ter'angreal work. Ter'angreal are constructed by flawed humans after all; any implications there can just as easily be societal as metaphysical.

For a bunch of aliens (Outsiders? Aberrations? Fey?) to see such a clear metaphysical difference between human genders/orientations is a different matter however, it implies there is one. Which of course is exactly what RJ was implying, consciously or not.

It's literally a setting where souls themselves have genders that persist through reincarnation and access to different magical abilities based on that. There is no such implication that a difference exists because it's already explicitly stated hundreds if not thousands of times by the time we get to the part with Mat and the snakes. Whether someone personally views that as problematic isn't my place to say, but there's no denying that it's an intrinsic part of the setting.

[Arkhosia]

I don't go here and I don't know a lot about WoT, but the way I see it, the suggestion of some degree of queerness existing through Mat's memories sounds like a really interesting way to explore ideas through adaptation. There's so much to explore about the ideas of how your memories shape you as a person, and so much about the way diverse experiences can better inform us. Lots of potential narrative meat to chew on there - and something that only gets more interesting the broader you expand the differences of background behind said memories.

I will also comment that it feels a little rich to see people so ardently against the idea of progressive adaptation and exploring themes of queerness and gender identity when we're discussing a fantasy series noted for breaking the mold and daring to center a long-running polyamorous relationship between main characters, a type of relationship still rarely shown or engaged with in modern media to this day - but, that may just be me.

[Ramza00]

The fact that a fictional setting is not written to cater to your personal beliefs about gender and sexuality does not mean that the author is acting out of some combination of "indifference or malice", and the fact that other people see the world differently to you is not "bad".

And it is not the responsibility of every creator in the world to change their settings, books, characters, and storylines until they have your personal stamp of approval.

Ditto but the opposite. Making sure there is representation is not an attack on other authors who were indifferent for they wanted to publish 3.4 million words over 15 years. The singular author had priorities they were carrying about and they were hyper focusing on those things. The author was kind of busy! (There is 4.41 million words once you add Brian Sanderson that is 19 days 5 hours if read in the unabridged format.)

When you are dealing with thousands of people which WoT will include due to a tv adaption, you can now spread out load and make things a little more detailed with the representation.

[Dragonus45]

I genuinely don't understand how acknowledging "women were generals in this setting too, and at least one of them over a period of centuries may have been good enough at it to warrant inclusion in the gestalt genius" warrants filling anyone with "dread."

I genuinely want to know why out of all the potential changes to be made here you went with the most innocuous and least influential to the narrative one that I have never complained about for me to be bothered by? Although I will say that the idea that this should somehow convert Matt's sexuality or gender is a bit suspect.

[Ramza00]

Yea, not the first time this or something like it has come up and it won't be the last, but I'm a real purist about an adaptation regardless of what I might happen to think specifically about the material or whether I think certain changes would be nice and I'm not sure why it seems to be so common for people to decide they want to adapt something that I have to wonder if they even like in the first place if they apparently feel the need to totally rewrite the setting and it's context to make it more acceptable to them.




They really shouldn't, for all they tend to be jobbers once the story picks up they should at least play the part of seeming menacing.

Weren’t the Children of the Light some form of purists and their zeal got the whole world into trouble?

[Anteros]

Ditto but the opposite. Making sure there is representation is not an attack on other authors who were indifferent for they wanted to publish 3.4 million words over 15 years. They had priorities they were carrying about and they were hyper focusing on those things. The author was kind of busy! (There is 4.41 million words once you add Brian Sanderson that is 19 days 5 hours if read in the unabridged format.)

When you are dealing with thousands of people which WoT will include due to a tv adaption, you can now spread out load and make things a little more detailed with the representation.

I don't see anyone arguing against representation. That's a bad faith argument. What people are arguing against is representation that's presented in such a ham-fisted, clumsy, and potentially offensive manner. WoT has far more viewpoint characters than any other series I can think of. There's plenty of opportunity for representation without majorly rewriting a huge part of one of the main characters personality.

[Ramza00]

I don't see anyone arguing against representation. That's a bad faith argument. What people are arguing against is representation that's presented in such a ham-fisted, clumsy, and potentially offensive manner. WoT has far more viewpoint characters than any other series I can think of. There's plenty of opportunity for representation without majorly rewriting a huge part of one of the main characters personality.

It is not a bad faith argument, for the fans who are not tied to this production, who only see the obscura away from it all via trailers, leaks, fan speculation etc… well they talk about the worse case scenarios and how they can imagine things going bad. This is kind of human and is not a flaw of individual actors, but instead is a trait of groups and how our anxieties can emerge when we talk socially between people.

Maybe it will be bad, maybe it will be good, who knows. The fact more people are involved fills me with faith and not fear. Of course large groups of people can always lead to a top down structure where bad ideas persist even if they get push back from within the creative team due to things like I am the boss do what I say, or we on deadline and we are rushing, or we design by committee and people can not provide push back by this “consensus decisions, likewise designing things by opinion surveys and so on.

[Traab]

And my point is that there’s a perfectly valid in-universe explanation that has no unfortunate setting implications, which you are ignoring.

Also this. Whether changes to how gender and sexuality are presented in WoT would be a much-needed update or virtue signaling at the expense of a perfectly good story is a matter of opinion. Nobody is going to change anybody’s mind on that point, and we’re likely to get the thread locked if we try. Can we just go back to discussing whether the Children have stupid haircuts and how often Egwene needs to be spanked (yes and nightly, as far as I’m concerned)?

They dont seem to work well on egwene. She seems to treat them as the price you pay for getting caught, not as a means to teach you not to do something.

[Psyren]

WoT has far more viewpoint characters than any other series I can think of. There's plenty of opportunity for representation without majorly rewriting a huge part of one of the main characters personality.

If we don't get any kind of queer representation in the EF5, I'd be a little disappointed in the missed opportunity but my overall enjoyment wouldn't be impacted I'd say.

If we do though... the mere thought makes me giddy.

I don't go here and I don't know a lot about WoT, but the way I see it, the suggestion of some degree of queerness existing through Mat's memories sounds like a really interesting way to explore ideas through adaptation. There's so much to explore about the ideas of how your memories shape you as a person, and so much about the way diverse experiences can better inform us. Lots of potential narrative meat to chew on there - and something that only gets more interesting the broader you expand the differences of background behind said memories.

I will also comment that it feels a little rich to see people so ardently against the idea of progressive adaptation and exploring themes of queerness and gender identity when we're discussing a fantasy series noted for breaking the mold and daring to center a long-running polyamorous relationship between main characters, a type of relationship still rarely shown or engaged with in modern media to this day - but, that may just be me.

Exactly I think the potential for upside here is massive, with very little impact to the core narrative.

I'm not sure the memories were picked with Mat's benefit in mind at all. I think they just grabbed whatever they had on hand to fill the gaps in his mind. Most likely his luck/ta'veren nature influenced what he got, combined with them mostly having memories from adventurous males on hand. If the ter'angreal had been somewhere like the Wastes or somewhere else where there are less traditional gender roles then they would have probably had memories from a broader selection, but Randland is pretty clearly an analogue for western Europe and their development seems to mostly follow along those lines.

IIRC, RJ said in an interview that the majority of them were soldiers/adventurers because those were the folks brave (or foolhardy or desperate) enough to enter the Tower in the first place.

So most of those being cishetmale is to an extent understandable. But 100% is, I feel, a missed opportunity.

It's literally a setting where souls themselves have genders that persist through reincarnation and access to different magical abilities based on that. There is no such implication that a difference exists because it's already explicitly stated hundreds if not thousands of times by the time we get to the part with Mat and the snakes. Whether someone personally views that as problematic isn't my place to say, but there's no denying that it's an intrinsic part of the setting.

Oh I'm not at all denying that's what RJ wrote, he was an essentialist. But I have two main responses to that:

1) Even if we buy the metaphysical immutability of gender between incarnations, no such stricture has to apply to sexuality. For example, over infinite turnings of the Wheel you might be correct that Rand will always be a male saidin-user in each one, but not necessarily that he'll be straight every time, any more than that he'll always go from brown haired Lews to redhead each time.

2) I'm not so much asking the question of what is, but rather the more fundamental question of what should be, and whether an adaptation taking the opportunity to tinker "under the hood" with an IP where they've been given tacit approval to do so is a good thing. (Clearly I believe it is, because of what I believe the broader benefit of fantasy literature to be, but I still enjoy discussing the possibilities.)

That is exactly not what I was saying. My point is that Mat, specifically, is not in a position to benefit from other memories because they would be more disorienting than helpful. Or, if you prefer, that such a broad perspective would have made Mat not as charmingly oblivious as the Pattern needed him to be at times. My point is that Mat with different memories has a different character arc going forward and the Pattern gave him exactly the memories needed to have the arc he needed to have. The possibility (unconfirmed), that those are all cishetmale has no implications you don’t want it to have.

I truly don't see how just one of the generals in his head being gay or a woman would possibly have the butterfly effect on the narrative you're implying here.

[TheStranger]

They dont seem to work well on egwene. She seems to treat them as the price you pay for getting caught, not as a means to teach you not to do something.

Egwene has a complicated relationship with spankings. Wasn't realizing how much fun being spanked was a major piece of character development for her? Or something like that. Gawyn doesn't seem like the type to be into that, though. If they had ever had a chance to try to settle down, Egwene would have been visiting Sorilea on the regular within six months.

On a related topic, I'm wondering if Madeleine Madden (or any human being) can convincingly portray receiving the sensation of spanking to the point of tears via an a'dam. That's a piece of RJ fetish fuel that's too plot central to remove, although I'm hoping they'll tone down the more sadistic elements of it.

[TheStranger]

I truly don't see how just one of the generals in his head being gay or a woman would possibly have the butterfly effect on the narrative you're implying here.

Might have, might not have. There's absolutely nothing in canon (to my recollection) about none of them being gay, btw. All men, I think so, but even that I'm not 100% sure on. But a few hypotheticals off the top of my head:

• Different memories let Mat successfully sneak away from the battle with the Shaido, so he doesn't kill Couladin. Rand either loses that battle outright or doesn't have Mat around, so he goes to "rescue" Egwene himself instead of sending Mat, so...
• More dissonant memories lead to Mat bailing on Rand well before that point, or being drunk and getting killed, or something like that.
• More perspective lets him handle the situation with Tylin better and get out of Ebou Dar without Tuon.
• A woman's memories show him how annoying men are when they try to protect you, so he loses his chivalrous instinct and isn't there when Elayne/Nynaeve need him.

My point is, Mat got handed a bunch of cards and none of them are clubs, so you assume it's because there are no clubs in the deck instead of any other possible explanation. There's no particular reason Mat not getting any women's memories from the Finn has to mean that the Finn don't have any women's memories they could have given him but didn't. Heck, maybe the Finn are just narrow minded and it didn't occur to them to give a man a woman's memories. It's all speculation, but my point is that "women were excluded from Finnland" is just one of many possible explanations.

[Psyren]

Egwene has a complicated relationship with spankings. Wasn't realizing how much fun being spanked was a major piece of character development for her? Or something like that. Gawyn doesn't seem like the type to be into that, though. If they had ever had a chance to try to settle down, Egwene would have been visiting Sorilea on the regular within six months.

On a related topic, I'm wondering if Madeleine Madden (or any human being) can convincingly portray receiving the sensation of spanking to the point of tears via an a'dam. That's a piece of RJ fetish fuel that's too plot central to remove, although I'm hoping they'll tone down the more sadistic elements of it.

I expect the full horror of the a'dam to be on display. Spanking is the least of what they did to her with it, IIRC Renna had her feel like she sat in a boiling cauldron and other such tortures.

Might have, might not have. There's absolutely nothing in canon (to my recollection) about none of them being gay, btw.

You're quite correct, so being explicit about it would be a lot of benefit for no cost.

All men, I think so, but even that I'm not 100% sure on. But a few hypotheticals off the top of my head:

• Different memories let Mat successfully sneak away from the battle with the Shaido, so he doesn't kill Couladin. Rand either loses that battle outright or doesn't have Mat around, so he goes to "rescue" Egwene himself instead of sending Mat, so...
• More dissonant memories lead to Mat bailing on Rand well before that point, or being drunk and getting killed, or something like that.
• More perspective lets him handle the situation with Tylin better and get out of Ebou Dar without Tuon.
• A woman's memories show him how annoying men are when they try to protect you, so he loses his chivalrous instinct and isn't there when Elayne/Nynaeve need him.

99% chance they modify the Tylin thing anyway. Quote that if you like.

The rest of these are, I'll be charitable and call them non sequiturs. There is no reason at all to think "one queer memory" = "fails to kill Couladin," etc.

My point is, Mat got handed a bunch of cards and none of them are clubs, so you assume it's because there are no clubs in the deck instead of any other possible explanation. There's no particular reason Mat not getting any women's memories from the Finn has to mean that the Finn don't have any women's memories they could have given him but didn't. Heck, maybe the Finn are just narrow minded and it didn't occur to them to give a man a woman's memories. It's all speculation, but my point is that "women were excluded from Finnland" is just one of many possible explanations.

I fully get that but here's the thing. In TV being explicit beats these kinds of contortions and headcanons. You can hand him all clubs and then spend years afterward assuring people no really there were totally hearts and diamonds offscreen! Or, you can just include a diamond / heart among all the clubs and preempt all that. One is all it takes.

[Rynjin]

They dont seem to work well on egwene. She seems to treat them as the price you pay for getting caught, not as a means to teach you not to do something.

Because that's basically how it works IRL too. I remember I was once given the choice as a school punishment a session of detention, or 20 whacks.

No hesitation, take the spanking. Like ****, even as a kid I've got things to do. Ain't nobody got time for detention.

I expect the full horror of the a'dam to be on display. Spanking is the least of what they did to her with it, IIRC Renna had her feel like she sat in a boiling cauldron and other such tortures.

Yeah, I expect there'll be some Kaiji style "hallucinations". Metaphors shown visually interposed on reality.

99% chance they modify the Tylin thing anyway. Quote that if you like.

I doubt they'll modify the Tylin thing much, if at all. It's an important scene for Mat, and there's no reason that Tylin NEEDS to be a sympathetic character. She even gets her comeuppance not long after from the gholam.

No, what they WILL modify is Nynaeve and Elayne's reactions to hearing about it and the way they treat him after saving them. I 100% guarantee that.

One of the best changes they could possibly make is not making those two irredeemable, almost comedic super-bitches. Half the **** they do to Mat feels like it stepped right out of an alternate version of Mean Girls with superpowers.

[TheStranger]

I expect the full horror of the a'dam to be on display. Spanking is the least of what they did to her with it, IIRC Renna had her feel like she sat in a boiling cauldron and other such tortures.

You're quite correct, so being explicit about it would be a lot of benefit for no cost.

99% chance they modify the Tylin thing anyway. Quote that if you like.

The rest of these are, I'll be charitable and call them non sequiturs. There is no reason at all to think "one queer memory" = "fails to kill Couladin," etc.

I fully get that but here's the thing. In TV being explicit beats these kinds of contortions and headcanons. You can hand him all clubs and then spend years afterward assuring people no really there were totally hearts and diamonds offscreen! Or, you can just include a diamond / heart among all the clubs and preempt all that. One is all it takes.

I really hope we just get a couple of cut-away shots of the torture starting with some offscreen screaming, and maybe Egwene telling Min about it or something. I have zero desire to witness any of that, to the point that it could put me off the show entirely if they go all-in on it.

I've always imagined that the victory of the Light in TG is a very precariously balanced thing, and everything needs to go just so or the Shadow triumphs. Hence, ta'veren, twisting fate so that fifty random people get married or whatever, because a fiddler playing at the weddings will tell his brother later, who will eventually enlist in the Band of the Red Hand and save Mat's life in the heat of battle or something. So yeah, my headcanon is that any change would be bad. But that's largely beside the point - I'm not trying to prove that Mat had to have only men's memories. I'm saying that is one of many reasons he might have only men's memories.

Anyway, I thought we were talking about the books, not the show. I don't really care what memories Mat has in the show (though I'm broadly against inserting overt real-world social messages in fiction regardless of the message, that would be pretty low-key unless they felt the need to rub our noses in it), my point was just that the fact that Mat only has men's memories in the books (again, not 100% sure whether that's stated or just implied) doesn't mean the Finn only had men's memories available to give him, which was what you were vigorously insisting. That's as much headcanon as anything I hypothesized, and I'm not sure why you've been so attached to it. Basically, you've been insisting on a very uncharitable interpretation, and I've been trying to point out that there are plenty of explanations that don't carry the in-setting implications you're claiming.

[Mechalich]

I've always imagined that the victory of the Light in TG is a very precariously balanced thing, and everything needs to go just so or the Shadow triumphs.

The ultimate presentation in the books suggests the opposite is true - that it is the Shadow that has great difficulty achieving victory. The world is the Pattern, and in order to triumph the Shadow must destroy the Pattern while being largely limited - the True Power might represent an exception - to acting within the framework of the Pattern, which actively resists its own destruction with all the tools available to it.

As a result the Dark One has to progressively weaken the Pattern over time until it is sufficiently frayed that the destruction of a handful of key important threads will unravel it entirely. This is why the Dark One takes a series of actions throughout the books to destabilize the world by maximizing chaos, manipulating the climate, undercutting his own minions, and attempting to turn Rand rather than simply launching a massive Trolloc invasion right away when the nations of the world are completely without the power to resist him because the latter move, even though it is the obvious strategic decision based on the balance of power when the series begins (the Dark One has millions of Trollocs, while the nations of Randland would have been hard pressed to mobilize even half a million troops when the series starts, with a similar imbalance in terms of the channelers on both sides), cannot succeed.

In fact, it is arguable that the tale told in WoT represents an outlier in the turnings of the Wheel and that this is one of the Dark One's top ten best showings in terms of bringing about eternal doom.

[Psyren]

I doubt they'll modify the Tylin thing much, if at all. It's an important scene for Mat, and there's no reason that Tylin NEEDS to be a sympathetic character. She even gets her comeuppance not long after from the gholam.

No, what they WILL modify is Nynaeve and Elayne's reactions to hearing about it and the way they treat him after saving them. I 100% guarantee that.

I broadly meant the entire subplot. Whether they keep the actual abuse the same and change the framing (his mental state and the girls' reaction upon learning of it), or alter the situation as a whole, either would align with my expectations.

One of the best changes they could possibly make is not making those two irredeemable, almost comedic super-bitches. Half the **** they do to Mat feels like it stepped right out of an alternate version of Mean Girls with superpowers.

Jordan's writing here was decidedly lacking, yeah. That plus her general foolhardiness made it almost impossible for me to like Elayne.

Nynaeve was bad here but more than made up for it elsewhere.

Yeah, I expect there'll be some Kaiji style "hallucinations". Metaphors shown visually interposed on reality.

Yeah I expect a decent amount of screaming/terror and flashes.

[Psyren]

I've always imagined that the victory of the Light in TG is a very precariously balanced thing, and everything needs to go just so or the Shadow triumphs.

If it's really that tight then I have bad news, we already lost TG. Thom isn't in the Two Rivers, we're probably not going to the Royal Palace in Caemlyn this season, Moiraine is fighting Logain etc. Those are already way bigger changes than "one of the voices in Mat's head mentions it had a husband."

Anyway, I thought we were talking about the books, not the show. I don't really care what memories Mat has in the show (though I'm broadly against inserting overt real-world social messages in fiction regardless of the message, that would be pretty low-key unless they felt the need to rub our noses in it), my point was just that the fact that Mat only has men's memories in the books (again, not 100% sure whether that's stated or just implied) doesn't mean the Finn only had men's memories available to give him, which was what you were vigorously insisting. That's as much headcanon as anything I hypothesized, and I'm not sure why you've been so attached to it. Basically, you've been insisting on a very uncharitable interpretation, and I've been trying to point out that there are plenty of explanations that don't carry the in-setting implications you're claiming.

I do know what you're pointing out and I responded to that. If there truly is already that kind of diversity in his head, and you're right that what we saw in the books could fit with that, it needs to be onscreen or at least more openly stated.

[Dragonus45]

In fact, it is arguable that the tale told in WoT represents an outlier in the turnings of the Wheel and that this is one of the Dark One's top ten best showings in terms of bringing about eternal doom.

Almost certainly so considering the word of god about how Padan Fain was a new and unique thing in the world that had never existed before and really messed things up for everyone.

[Gnoman]

Egwene has a complicated relationship with spankings. Wasn't realizing how much fun being spanked was a major piece of character development for her?

No. Beatings were never portrayed as anything except a punishment and are never "fun". A major part of her character development is learning to embrace the pain - to treat it as an honorable wound rather than something to be avoided.

[Traab]

As far as changing how elayne and nyaneve react to matts treatment, I kinda hope they dont. One of the biggest things character wise in the entire series is that nobody is a paragon of virtue. They can be petty, mean, vindictive, jerks. Sometimes your friends dont treat you right, sometimes their preconceptions blind them to reality. Thats human nature. Its honestly one of the things I like more about the series despite sometimes complaining about it. The main characters sometimes have bad attitudes, throw tantrums, mistreat each other, and do stupid things. And sometimes they pay for that. Sometimes they learn something from what happens. They grow and change as people, not just characters.

[Psyren]

As far as changing how elayne and nyaneve react to matts treatment, I kinda hope they dont. One of the biggest things character wise in the entire series is that nobody is a paragon of virtue. They can be petty, mean, vindictive, jerks. Sometimes your friends dont treat you right, sometimes their preconceptions blind them to reality. Thats human nature. Its honestly one of the things I like more about the series despite sometimes complaining about it. The main characters sometimes have bad attitudes, throw tantrums, mistreat each other, and do stupid things. And sometimes they pay for that. Sometimes they learn something from what happens. They grow and change as people, not just characters.

I'm okay with flawed characters, but that exchange felt pretty out of character for Nynaeve especially. There's a difference between her general exasperation with Mat and his womanizing ways, and her willingness to let a fellow Emonds Fielder be subjected to pretty explicit and repeated abuse by an outsider. Nynaeve in particular has an affinity not just for physical trauma but mental as well, so she arguably should have picked up on it before Mat telling her, and certainly should have reacted appropriately once she knew.

Elayne I'm not convinced can see past her nose for anyone but Rand so I don't care about her one way or another.

---

Oh, can we say new trailer? Yeah, new trailer!



Very explicit statement from Moiraine there that the Dragon is one of the FIVE of you. Not just the three boys. Love it!

[Ashen Lilies]

I feel like that could still definitely be Aes Sedai weasel words in action, though. Even if she knows it's one of the three boys, she can still say "oh yeah, it's definitely one of the five of you" (wink wink, technically a true statement) to try and grab these two really powerful channeler women and get them to come with her. Aes Sedai, truths, etc. etc. She definitely said "one of the four of you" in the other trailer, not five. I'm so interested to see where we'll go with this.

Also, they made the Whitecloaks actually terrifying, damn.

Also also, there's way more New Spring material in here than I expected we'd see. We get to see the Blood Snow!!!

[Psyren]

I feel like that could still definitely be Aes Sedai weasel words in action, though. Even if she knows it's one of the three boys, she can still say "oh yeah, it's definitely one of the five of you" (wink wink, technically a true statement) to try and grab these two really powerful channeler women and get them to come with her. Aes Sedai, truths, etc. etc. She definitely said "one of the four of you" in the other trailer, not five. I'm so interested to see where we'll go with this.

I find it interesting because she didn't any kind of weaseling to get Egwene to go along in the book, she basically invited herself.

Nynaeve is another matter; she might have needed some trickery to come along willingly, so I can see an argument there. (In the book as you know, she tracked them down because she essentially thought Moiraine kidnapped the other four, and had even less desire to leave Emond's Field than the boys did.)

One issue I see with this different approach - Nynaeve tracking down the group solo (when even the Trollocs and Fade(s) failed to) is initially what impressed Lan and eventually led to their romance blossoming. There are other ways for Nynaeve to impress him of course, but they'll have to be a bit more explicit if they don't want it to feel contrived.

Also also, there's way more New Spring material in here than I expected we'll see. We get to see the Blood Snow!!!

Yeah, Moiraine being raised was not something I expected to see this season.

Are we going to get Tamra Ospenya and Gitara Moroso, I wonder?

[Ashen Lilies]

Lan just sees Nynaeve flip her braid once and he's gone. Absolutely done for.

More seriously, we've seen other clips with only six people riding out of what I presume to be the Two Rivers, so I think this trailer might be lying to us harder in places than even the Tar Valon witches do.

[MammonAzrael]

Generally positive feels from this one!

• While I still dislike their myrddraal, the trollocs look pretty darn good in those clips.
• Excited to see how all the modified material will weave together!
• Very interested to see how much the Whitecloak threat will be beefed up. Feels much more in line with their intended role.
• Still really liking how channeling looks. I'm quite curious to see how they'll handle (if they do it at all) the accidental/unknown channeling throughout the series. And that Saidar/din users can't see the other's weavings.

Minor nitpicks

• Why they calling her Moirane Sedai before she's sworn her Oaths? That would've been an appropriate place for a Damodred!
• Looks like Katanas Are Just Better given how Tam is blocking that trolloc sword. I hope the rest of the series has better fight choreography.
• Is that Thom explaining what Aes Sedai means? If so, that bit feels oddly out of character.
• **** the "360 Experience" of this trailer.

[Psyren]

More seriously, we've seen other clips with only six people riding out of what I presume to be the Two Rivers, so I think this trailer might be lying to us harder in places than even the Tar Valon witches do.

Good point; they could still have Nynaeve not go along initially and follow the group later, and are just being tricky about it in the trailer.

Generally positive feels from this one!

• While I still dislike their myrddraal, the trollocs look pretty darn good in those clips.
• Excited to see how all the modified material will weave together!
• Very interested to see how much the Whitecloak threat will be beefed up. Feels much more in line with their intended role.
• Still really liking how channeling looks. I'm quite curious to see how they'll handle (if they do it at all) the accidental/unknown channeling throughout the series. And that Saidar/din users can't see the other's weavings.

Menacingly circling a pair of scared kids is definitely on brand for Whitecloaks. Not sure who the unconscious/dead person in the red and blue coat on the ground is supposed to be. (Aram? Elyas?)

I'm also assuming they're behind the burning of that woman at the stake - and she must be an Aes Sedai since the whitecloak is ostentatiously displaying her ring on his belt afterward - which begs the question, how in the heck did they manage that? She would need to blindfolded to not weave, rather than merely gagged and bound.

Generally positive feels from this one!
Minor nitpicks

• Why they calling her Moirane Sedai before she's sworn her Oaths? That would've been an appropriate place for a Damodred!
• Looks like Katanas Are Just Better given how Tam is blocking that trolloc sword. I hope the rest of the series has better fight choreography.
• Is that Thom explaining what Aes Sedai means? If so, that bit feels oddly out of character.
• **** the "360 Experience" of this trailer.

- I assume she'll be "Damodred" going into her test, and "Sedai" coming out.
- Tam's katana certainly is Just Better, since it is Power-wrought. Those things are practically vibranium in-universe.
- I'm gonna guess that voiceover is Tam rather than Thom; he would know a lot about them having fought right outside Tar Valon. He has a conversation about the First Oath with Rand in EotW, so they may have expanded that to cover all the Aes Sedai oaths.

---

Some other random things to gush about in the trailer:

Spoiler

Show

- We finally get a look at Moiraine's kesiera.
- Narg v Tam looks like it's going to be as epic as I imagined!
- I assume that's Agelmar in Shienar we're seeing with the topknot, looking very daimyo and badass with his back turned.
- The scene of Moiraine and Lan dressed in white and crying / yelling looks like a funeral. For who I can't say. At this point I'm not even sure Tamra is in this version since Moiraine appears to be getting raised BY Siuan instead of WITH her.
- Nynaeve taking on a whole-*** trolloc with her belt knife is very on brand.
- Battle of Winternight looks like it's going to be badass too. 5 fireballs at once Moiraine, save some Trollocs for Lan! (and here we can clearly see that Fire weaves do look different than Air!)
- Anyone recognize the symbol on that dagger going for Logain? Three stars?
- Veiled Aiel in the Blood Snow taking wetlanders to stabbytown, I live.
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