Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

[Ashen Lilies]

I can't describe what an incredibly hardcore move it would be to end this series with Rand dying and a voice whispering "I have won again, Lews Therin." I would have so much respect for that.

Put a pin in that idea for if this show gets canned early.

[Blackhawk748]

I forget all the supporting quotes, but the Dusty Wheel podcast showed how (cover art notwithstanding) brown Egwene and Nynaeve can/do align with what we're told in the books.

Some of the changes are definitely more contradictory however, like Siuan, but I don't mind those either.

I wouldn't be shocked. Jordan liked having non normal (for us) hair and skin color combos. Like, the Aiel have a bunch of redheads and IIRC they have a darker skin tone, which is not a normal combination.

I did always envisage Perrin kinda looking like a guy I know who had a big mop of curly hair, but the guy they went with has the overall size down if nothing else.

[Psyren]

I can't describe what an incredibly hardcore move it would be to end this series with Rand dying and a voice whispering "I have won again, Lews Therin." I would have so much respect for that.

While I don't totally disagree, the actual ending to the series is too good to pass up seeing on screen for me

And if the show does really well, we may even explore the post-TG world where

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The Aiel may end up enslaved/eradicated, the Black and White towers join forces, the Ogier use the Book of Translation etc.

Rodin posted a wiki link further up that's collected all of Judkins' answers during various AMAs on social media (twitter, instagram, etc.)

Again, for posterity: https://wot-prime.fandom.com/wiki/Rafe_Judkins/Quotes

As to minor details I'm looking forward to: whether or not they'll cast Americans for the Seanchan :V

I missed that link, thanks!

The Seanchan having US southern accents feels like it will just be too fun to pass up so I really hope they do this. So many fantasy settings skew towards British mores/actors for the main region, with the "exotic" lands then defaulting to some pastiche of Asian/Middle Eastern/African - see also Westeros vs. Essos, Khanduras vs. Kehjistan, etc. For the Seanchan to sail in going "Bow to the Empress, y'all!" all over the place will turn that cliché on its head in an instant.

I wouldn't be shocked. Jordan liked having non normal (for us) hair and skin color combos. Like, the Aiel have a bunch of redheads and IIRC they have a darker skin tone, which is not a normal combination.

I did always envisage Perrin kinda looking like a guy I know who had a big mop of curly hair, but the guy they went with has the overall size down if nothing else.

One theory about Siuan I saw on reddit:

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She's darker with what appear to be elaborate tattoos on her chest - perhaps they are making her a Sea Folk in this version rather than a Tairen peasant, in order to more strongly tie in that people to the main cast, as in the books they are pretty tangential other than the Bowl. That would be a heavy departure from the lore but might make for a tighter story overall.

[Ashen Lilies]

At least we're already getting a defiance of the first part. Nice diverse cast, and it looks like they're pulling a lot of cultural diversity in for the set and costume design as well. Lan's warder clothing seems to be clearly styled after hanbok, the probable Dragonsworn in the trailer have a mix of outfits including some that look distinctly Chinese, and the aerial shots of Tar Valon clearly show Middle-Eastern style domes and minarets sharing the skyline with European style villas (appropriate for such a cosmopolitan city at the center of the political world).

But I just happened to notice that most of the main cast are mostly Britain and Europe-based (Daniel Henney being a notable exception) so I was hoping their casting director might cross the Atlantic as well for the overseas colony making its reappearance, though there are probably budget and legal reasons not to.

Siuan: even if that theory is incorrect, the casting feels right to me. Tear is to the south and mentioned as being quite hot and humid, and we have existing examples of dark-skinned Tairens (Juilin, most notably) already present in the books.

[snowblizz]

Like, the Aiel have a bunch of redheads and IIRC they have a darker skin tone, which is not a normal combination.

The Aiel are fair-skinned, think Irish.... until they get sunburnt at any rate.....

This is someone reporting back a question asked at some panel years ago:

Robert Jordan
He made the Aiel look Irish because he thought it was kind of funny. He doesn't like the fact that hardened desert warriors are always described as looking a certain way, so he used the opposite description.

One of the very main ideas of RJ's work is that he heavily mixed up real world stuff in ways that wasn't too "natural" so things are familiar but combined in odd ways. This world is the Age of Legends, that maybe was more uniformly like ours, and scattered everything around so people and cultures sorta got shifted around. The mix and match of e.g. building styles is part of that. People we would associate with certain styles and cultures don't have them. People don't look like we expect them to form the places they live in. The world is all broken apart and things shuffled around.

[TheStranger]

I always read the Two Rivers as a having a Mediterranean or Middle Eastern level of skin tone, personally. Rand in the books has fairer skin than the norm, but not so much that it’s obvious except where he’s not tanned. If he were the one ginger in a village of black people, it wouldn’t be his hair and eye color that people comment on.

My only issue with Perrin being black is purely intellectual. He’s from a district with a population of maybe a few thousand that’s been mostly isolated for about 2,000 years. My guess is that genetic variation in the Two Rivers is barely enough to avoid serious inbreeding. Whatever the dominant skin tone in the Two Rivers is, I’d guess there isn’t a lot of variation among families. But in terms of casting for the show, that’s a complete non-issue.

I think RJ said at one point that the Aiel were meant to look Irish as a deliberate subversion of what we expect desert warriors to look like. They’re always described as heavily tanned but pale-skinned otherwise, I think. Edit: yep, that’s the quote.

And yeah, the Seanchan accent is described as a thick drawl in enough places that I’d be a little disappointed if they didn’t have southern accents. Though that does raise a question - if somebody is watching the show in Texas, what will they think about the Seanchan being the only people without accents?

[Psyren]

At least we're already getting a defiance of the first part. Nice diverse cast, and it looks like they're pulling a lot of cultural diversity in for the set and costume design as well. Lan's warder clothing seems to be clearly styled after hanbok, the probable Dragonsworn in the trailer have a mix of outfits including some that look distinctly Chinese, and the aerial shots of Tar Valon clearly show Middle-Eastern style domes and minarets sharing the skyline with European style villas (appropriate for such a cosmopolitan city at the center of the political world).

I love the idea that Ogier just went ham as far as architectural styles sourced from our Age, whether or not they even knew or realized that

But I just happened to notice that most of the main cast are mostly Britain and Europe-based (Daniel Henney being a notable exception) so I was hoping their casting director might cross the Atlantic as well for the overseas colony making its reappearance, though there are probably budget and legal reasons not to.

Not surprising, British actors are just in vogue for this sort of thing. GoT, The Witcher, Shadow & BoneCastlevania, Warrior Nun, the list goes on.
(All the more reason, in my view, to make the Seanchan as violently American-sounding as they can to really shake things up.)

Siuan: even if that theory is incorrect, the casting feels right to me. Tear is to the south and mentioned as being quite hot and humid, and we have existing examples of dark-skinned Tairens (Juilin, most notably) already present in the books.

Let me be clear - even if she happens to "just" be a dark-skinned Tairen I'm here for it. But the tattoo seems very elaborate (not to mention prominently framed) to not have any real significance beyond aesthetics either. I could be wrong of course.

My only issue with Perrin being black is purely intellectual. He’s from a district with a population of maybe a few thousand that’s been mostly isolated for about 2,000 years. My guess is that genetic variation in the Two Rivers is barely enough to avoid serious inbreeding. Whatever the dominant skin tone in the Two Rivers is, I’d guess there isn’t a lot of variation among families.

1) Manetheren was a massive cosmopolitan empire, big enough at its peak to contain swathes of three other modern nations (Ghealdan, Amadicia, Tarabon and a decent slice of Andor), so even as isolated as their Two Rivers descendants may have gotten there is still plenty of room for variation.

2) This notion about how the Two Rivers should lack diversity has been debunked (with citations) on numerous podcasts and fan circles by folks much more knowledgeable than I as soon as the casting was announced, here's an example. 14:30 is the specific Emond's Field discussion, but among other citations brought up in that video are included the fact that Ishara - the queen who founded Andor and from whom every Andoran high noble house that wants to claim the Lion Throne descends - is explicitly described as being as dark-skinned as an Atha'an Miere in Path of Daggers.

TL;DR it's best we put the erroneous notion of an all or even mostly-white Two Rivers out of our minds as soon as possible, that was never supported by the text.

Though that does raise a question - if somebody is watching the show in Texas, what will they think about the Seanchan being the only people without accents?

The same that British people watching almost any other fantasy show these days would think I imagine

[Gnoman]

One theory about Siuan I saw on reddit:

Spoiler

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She's darker with what appear to be elaborate tattoos on her chest - perhaps they are making her a Sea Folk in this version rather than a Tairen peasant, in order to more strongly tie in that people to the main cast, as in the books they are pretty tangential other than the Bowl. That would be a heavy departure from the lore but might make for a tighter story overall.

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That would be an incredibly drastic change. Not out of the question, of course, but there's no way to maintain the dual "the Amyrlin is the center of the Tower" and "The Tower has no idea that channelers are common and honored among the Sea Folk" with a Sea Folk Amyrlin. The Suian we see wouldn't keep a secret like that, and there is no way she wouldn't know. This theory would require a massive rewrite of almost every Tower plotline.

[Psyren]

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That would be an incredibly drastic change. Not out of the question, of course, but there's no way to maintain the dual "the Amyrlin is the center of the Tower" and "The Tower has no idea that channelers are common and honored among the Sea Folk" with a Sea Folk Amyrlin. The Suian we see wouldn't keep a secret like that, and there is no way she wouldn't know. This theory would require a massive rewrite of almost every Tower plotline.

Nah, just a rewrite of the Sea Folk plotline. Personally I'd rather they axe the Sea Folk entirely, but if they're going to keep them this might be a way to streamline things.

What did the secret really add to the lore anyway?

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They did nothing of consequence after the Bowl, and Moiraine figured out the twist on her own anyway. What's the point?

[Ashen Lilies]

It might be nice to not have them be the most unlikeable culture this side of the Seanchan.

[TheStranger]

Manetheren was a massive cosmopolitan empire, big enough at its peak to contain swathes of three other modern nations (Ghealdan, Amadicia, Tarabon and a decent slice of Andor), so even as isolated as their Two Rivers descendants may have gotten there is still plenty of room for variation.

2) This notion about how the Two Rivers should lack diversity has been debunked (with citations) on numerous podcasts and fan circles by folks much more knowledgeable than I as soon as the casting was announced, here's an example. 14:30 is the specific Emond's Field discussion, but among other citations brought up in that video are included the fact that Ishara - the queen who founded Andor and from whom every Andoran high noble house that wants to claim the Lion Throne descends - is explicitly described as being as dark-skinned as an Atha'an Miere in Path of Daggers.

TL;DR it's best we put the erroneous notion of an all or even mostly-white Two Rivers out of our minds as soon as possible, that was never supported by the text.

I 100% agree that Manetheren was probably cosmopolitan and maybe even mostly black. I’m not arguing for a mostly white Two Rivers, just a mostly-homogeneous Two Rivers. Whatever ethnic diversity you had at the fall of Manetheren seems like it should even out into a relatively uniform shade of brown over 2,000 years of relative isolation, and the text generally supports there being a common “look” among the population. My reading of the text is that the prevailing skin tone is more swarthy than brown, but that has nothing to do with how the Emond’s Field crew is described and everything to do with the fact that Rand is generally described as being remarkable for hair/eye color rather than skin color, and that Tam isn’t *obviously* not his father. Otherwise, I’d agree that there’s no reason the standard Two Rivers ethnicity couldn’t be closer to black than white based on the descriptions of the natives.

I want to be clear that I’m not complaining about Perrin being cast as black. It’s just a bit of fridge logic on my part.

[Psyren]

For it to end up "mostly homogenous" though, you'd have to know the makeup of the original group that settled the area that would become the TR. That's information we just don't have.

The closest we have is Elaida in Eye of the World, doubting Rand's claims to be from the Two Rivers based on his light eyes, ginger hair, extreme height and pale skin color. Not only does that actually strengthen the argument for the rest of the main cast being darker-skinned, the word she uses for the latter two attributes specifically is "seldom", which of course proves that there are other folks there as pale as Rand - just that it doesn't happen often. Ergo, diversity.

(I know you're not complaining about the casting - I'm merely pointing out the flaws in the fridge logic being employed.)

[Blackhawk748]

I generally had the Two Rivers folk as kind of "General Mediterranean" look with maybe some slightly lighter hair shades, but its not like Jordan did much for describing a person's appearance more than once. He much preferred to talk about their clothes.

Dear lord the clothes descriptions.

[russdm]

My most abiding memory about this books was trying to find aircraft and computers and such.

As it turns out, that was Terry Brooks Shannarra, which was built on after our own world, not wheel of time. I still can't remember how I got that confused in my head.

Also, I think that I ended up just started ignoring plots, like everything to do with the Aes Sedai (Did the White and Black Towers really provide us with something? was there a point of exploring or having all the many Ajahs?), all the Dagger-Guy from that cursed city that Mat Idiot-Ball to get, the entire Seanchan part, Mat and Mat's plotline.

What exactly did these things add again?

I spent more time wanting to read about Lan, and Nynaeve and Min. And about the efforts to stop the evil one/shadow

[TheStranger]

For it to end up "mostly homogenous" though, you'd have to know the makeup of the original group that settled the area that would become the TR. That's information we just don't have.

The closest we have is Elaida in Eye of the World, doubting Rand's claims to be from the Two Rivers based on his light eyes, ginger hair, extreme height and pale skin color. Not only does that actually strengthen the argument for the rest of the main cast being darker-skinned, the word she uses for the latter two attributes specifically is "seldom", which of course proves that there are other folks there as pale as Rand - just that it doesn't happen often. Ergo, diversity.

(I know you're not complaining about the casting - I'm merely pointing out the flaws in the fridge logic being employed.)

I don’t see why the original makeup matters, other than affecting the general shade of brown you end up with. Unless you’re saying that 2,000 years isn’t enough for the gene pool to be pretty well mixed? My gut says it is, but I could be wrong. An expert in population genetics could tell us.

I actually just reread that part of TEotW, and I interpret Elaida’s quote as saying that Rand’s coloring is pretty much unheard of in the Two Rivers. If there was any meaningful diversity of skin colors, she wouldn’t take it as casting doubt on his story.

That said, the idea that Rand’s coloring came from his mother is perfectly plausible in general (if Tam isn’t particularly dark-skinned). The Two Rivers is isolated, but people do come and go sometimes. If Perrin’s father were a merchant’s guard who took up with a local woman, for instance, that would justify him being black when the rest of the cast isn’t. That’s not supported by the books (per Moiraine, the old blood of Manetheren is strong and pure in almost all these young men), but it’s an entirely valid reason for a little bit of diversity in the region.

[Blackhawk748]

Also, I think that I ended up just started ignoring plots, like everything to do with the Aes Sedai (Did the White and Black Towers really provide us with something? was there a point of exploring or having all the many Ajahs?), all the Dagger-Guy from that cursed city that Mat Idiot-Ball to get, the entire Seanchan part, Mat and Mat's plotline.

What exactly did these things add again?

In order:

Neat word building and seeing how much of a twisted ball of plots the Aes Sedai have turned into

Mat is fun and following him around is also fun.

I do agree that the Black Tower was horrifically underutilized and feels very much like an abandoned plot line.

[Tvtyrant]

I don’t see why the original makeup matters, other than affecting the general shade of brown you end up with. Unless you’re saying that 2,000 years isn’t enough for the gene pool to be pretty well mixed? My gut says it is, but I could be wrong. An expert in population genetics could tell us.

I actually just reread that part of TEotW, and I interpret Elaida’s quote as saying that Rand’s coloring is pretty much unheard of in the Two Rivers. If there was any meaningful diversity of skin colors, she wouldn’t take it as casting doubt on his story.

That said, the idea that Rand’s coloring came from his mother is perfectly plausible in general (if Tam isn’t particularly dark-skinned). The Two Rivers is isolated, but people do come and go sometimes. If Perrin’s father were a merchant’s guard who took up with a local woman, for instance, that would justify him being black when the rest of the cast isn’t. That’s not supported by the books (per Moiraine, the old blood of Manetheren is strong and pure in almost all these young men), but it’s an entirely valid reason for a little bit of diversity in the region.

Real world reasons for ethnic drift don't apply in fantasy-land. The Aiel would be dark because of terrible skin cancer rates, the two rivers would be light from rickets. Phenotype shifts are fairly rapid from even small fatality differences.

All of which is to say, they aren't aiming for demographic accuracy. They are aiming for a modern cosmopolitan city look for audience reasons. Like not-katanas being better in WoT then straight swords, it is effectively a genre convention.

[Rynjin]

As to minor details I'm looking forward to: whether or not they'll cast Americans for the Seanchan :V

As I recall the Seanchan are ethnically Asian, but were taken over by Hawkwing's empire, which had the Texan accents.

So it's a good opportunity to cast people of Asian descent and also not have to go too far afield for casting.

My most abiding memory about this books was trying to find aircraft and computers and such.

As it turns out, that was Terry Brooks Shannarra, which was built on after our own world, not wheel of time. I still can't remember how I got that confused in my head.

Also, I think that I ended up just started ignoring plots, like everything to do with the Aes Sedai (Did the White and Black Towers really provide us with something? was there a point of exploring or having all the many Ajahs?), all the Dagger-Guy from that cursed city that Mat Idiot-Ball to get, the entire Seanchan part, Mat and Mat's plotline.

What exactly did these things add again?

I spent more time wanting to read about Lan, and Nynaeve and Min. And about the efforts to stop the evil one/shadow

Yeah, on the contrary, Mat was my favorite character to follow and I absolutely ****ing despised Nyanaeve (and Egwene for that matter).

Maybe we don't make broad sweeping cuts to the series' content based on one person's taste, mm?

[Gnoman]

Nah, just a rewrite of the Sea Folk plotline. Personally I'd rather they axe the Sea Folk entirely, but if they're going to keep them this might be a way to streamline things.

What did the secret really add to the lore anyway?

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They did nothing of consequence after the Bowl, and Moiraine figured out the twist on her own anyway. What's the point?

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For thousands of years, the Aes Sedai have believed that they are the only organization of women that use the Power. This is fundamental to their entire structure. The Sea Folk Windfinders (along with the Aeil Wise Ones, the Seanchan Damane, and the Kin) were every bit as earthshaking a secret as if somebody in Middle Earth found a suitcase full of Rings of Power. Having the head of the Tower be aware of this would be as fundamentally wrong as if she were Black Ajah.

[Ashen Lilies]

As I recall the Seanchan are ethnically Asian, but were taken over by Hawkwing's empire, which had the Texan accents.

So it's a good opportunity to cast people of Asian descent and also not have to go too far afield for casting.

Not quite. The Seanchan are described as being ethnically diverse, I think even more so than the Westlands, due to being a centralized, continent-spanning empire rather than a collection of independent nations. What we see of them in the Return is a cross-section of all the different ethnicities of people that make up their military and nobility, drawn from across their full territory. Culturally and aesthetically, they borrow a lot from East Asia, specifically Imperial Japan and China in particular terms of their clothing design and some cultural baggage (but also from Byzantium, Persia, and the antebellum American South) but in terms of the actual people there's a high degree of physical variation, which is fairly unremarked upon. Tuon and Anath* are black, but Selucia is described as creamy-skinned and blonde. Suroth is described as having black hair and eyes, which could well be East Asian. Egeanin has fair skin, dark hair, and blue eyes.

The only time we ever see a Seanchan dwell on national origin or ethnicity among their own people the same way Westlanders do is with Ajimbura, who is explicitly noted to be from a very recently subjugated people. What I generally infer from the Seanchan perspective is that the way you look or the color of your skin has become a largely irrelevant detail; there is one Empire, and all peoples are part of it. They have plenty of other ways to brutally segregate and dehumanize people, but race and (and incidentally, sex) aren't among them.

The Seanchan having American accents I don't think came specifically from Hawkwing's empire specifically, since Hawkwing is a speaking character and I don't recall him being noted to have the drawl, but more a series of cultural references: Seanchan occupies America's place geographically, historically (in a demented sort of way - if America had ever launched a full reconquista of the Old World as Seanchan does), and somewhat pointedly, culturally - the Seanchan being a notable slave society.

*okay so she's not technically Seanchan, but her skin color is given so little regard by all the Seanchan around her that I think it counts

[Mechalich]

The Seanchan having American accents I don't think came specifically from Hawkwing's empire specifically, since Hawkwing is a speaking character and I don't recall him being noted to have the drawl, but more a series of cultural references: Seanchan occupies America's place geographically, historically (in a demented sort of way - if America had ever launched a full reconquista of the Old World as Seanchan does), and somewhat pointedly, culturally - the Seanchan being a notable slave society.

Seanchan slavery - in which there are significant gradations of slave status and many slaves have high levels of authority including over free people and slavery has no ethnic basis, is clearly not based on the the Antebellum American model of slavery and more on the way slavery operated in Classical Antiquity and large East Asian states. The status of the Deathwatch Guard, for example, a group of slaves who not only form an elite military unit but may rise to command rank and command large armies of free soldiers, is completely antithetical to the antebellum form of slavery. Rather it is slavery in Shaara - regularly referred to as 'human animals' - that hews closer to that model.

[Rynjin]

Not quite. The Seanchan are described as being ethnically diverse, I think even more so than the Westlands, due to being a centralized, continent-spanning empire rather than a collection of independent nations. What we see of them in the Return is a cross-section of all the different ethnicities of people that make up their military and nobility, drawn from across their full territory. Culturally and aesthetically, they borrow a lot from East Asia, specifically Imperial Japan and China in particular terms of their clothing design and some cultural baggage (but also from Byzantium, Persia, and the antebellum American South) but in terms of the actual people there's a high degree of physical variation, which is fairly unremarked upon. Tuon and Anath* are black, but Selucia is described as creamy-skinned and blonde. Suroth is described as having black hair and eyes, which could well be East Asian. Egeanin has fair skin, dark hair, and blue eyes.

Well, Asian peoples in general are very ethnically diverse so this doesn't really contradict anything I think. Tuon is very dark skinned, but that could mean she's "black" in the sense of being of African descent...or maybe she's Thai, Filipino, Indian, etc.

[Psyren]

I don’t see why the original makeup matters, other than affecting the general shade of brown you end up with. Unless you’re saying that 2,000 years isn’t enough for the gene pool to be pretty well mixed? My gut says it is, but I could be wrong. An expert in population genetics could tell us.

When you find one let me know.

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For thousands of years, the Aes Sedai have believed that they are the only organization of women that use the Power. This is fundamental to their entire structure. The Sea Folk Windfinders (along with the Aeil Wise Ones, the Seanchan Damane, and the Kin) were every bit as earthshaking a secret as if somebody in Middle Earth found a suitcase full of Rings of Power. Having the head of the Tower be aware of this would be as fundamentally wrong as if she were Black Ajah.

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First off, no. They knew they weren't alone, they were just convinced that poking into those other cultures wasn't worth the effort. Getting to the Aiel to try and snoop would have just resulted in a lot of dead Aes Sedai (the waste is harsh enough to even kill Wise Ones after all), the Sea Folk DO send channelers to the Tower (weak ones in the books, but Siuan could easily be one of those without changing much), and the Tower DOES know about the Kin.

Second, none of what you said answers my question. As written in the books, what vital narrative purpose do the Sea Folk serve? The Tower's structure, by your own admission, wasn't affected one iota by what they knew or didn't know about these other societies, theirs especially. The Bowl of the Winds was effectively a filler arc. The only important thing it did was get Mat in contact with Tuon, which could be accomplished in other ways without nearly as much padding. The Sea Folk in the books are an annoying waste of space.

[Ashen Lilies]

Seanchan slavery - in which there are significant gradations of slave status and many slaves have high levels of authority including over free people and slavery has no ethnic basis, is clearly not based on the the Antebellum American model of slavery and more on the way slavery operated in Classical Antiquity and large East Asian states. The status of the Deathwatch Guard, for example, a group of slaves who not only form an elite military unit but may rise to command rank and command large armies of free soldiers, is completely antithetical to the antebellum form of slavery. Rather it is slavery in Shaara - regularly referred to as 'human animals' - that hews closer to that model.

You're correct of course, and I did note that the Seanchan draw across a broad spectrum of cultural references.

Seanchan slavery does not totally resemble in large part the race-based chattel slavery of the Americas, though there are mentions of slave markets where da'covale can be bought and sold - so there are some classes of slave that do function more as chattel, with certain slaves owned by the Crystal Throne, like the aforementioned Deathwatch Guard as well as the Seekers being unique cases. Damane may be bought and sold as well - I believe Egeanin in her first introduction considers it a point of pride that she owns one - and while that's not specifically race based, the enslavement of an entire group of people based on a specific inborn trait is... well there are parallels that can be drawn.

Without following the rabbit hole too much further down though, since I find the subject distasteful, all I mean to suggest is that, regardless of the specific details, seeing as the man was from the American South himself, the confluence of the presence of a predominant slave-based society, where their practice of institutional slavery, independent of form, is repeatedly highlighted as an example of their villainy and otherness (slavery being a distinct enigma to the Westlands, who have no form of it, and where the very concept of 'people as property' is anathema to moral, right-minded people like Mat Cauthon) with various forms of American-coding (their geographic location, history, and the all-but-named signature drawl) is a collected irony that couldn't have been arrived at totally by happenstance.

[Corvus]

My main issue with the series is it is on Amazon, whom I am in no hurry to give any money too.

The trailer itself made it look a little too generic. If you didn't already know it was WoT nothing really jumped out and screamed it.

And no sign of Thom or Loial.

I would have preferred if Moraine and Lan were closer to their correct heights, Lan being much, much taller than the very short Moraine, but that is a minor thing.

Seanchan strikes me as being a little bit like Rome - race really wasn't an issue and anyone could earn Roman citizenship. Rome was very cosmopolitain.

[Ashen Lilies]

To return to topics that aren't, uh, discussing the details of fictional slavery, some other things I'm interested in:

- how they deal with Mat in the first few seasons. Because let's be honest, Mat for the first two books is kind of a tool. Are they going to have him be an unlikeable jerkwad for such a significant early part of the show?
- Perrin's characterization. Since he, more so than the other characters, is a deeply introspective and internally focused character, and like 90% of his characterization and development comes through his internal dialogue.
- whether they're going to keep the whole ta'veren thing. It's a great, deliciously meta concept in the context of the books, but might come across as a little too esoteric for tv audiences. The main characters can still be the Pattern's Special Children without there needing to be an in-universe study of it, and the singling out of the trio when the girls (Egwene specifically) have equally meteoric and improbable character trajectories was always a little odd.
- this answer from Rafe:

Spoiler: of Rands and Romances

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No

(5 hours of backlash later) Let’s just say I’m much more interested in polyamory than polygamy. And maybe give me a little more credit than assuming I’m gonna gut that entire story and ruin everything off a one word answer? ;)

The Elayviendha (Avilayne?) neurons in my brain are exploding right now.

[Mechalich]

Spoiler: romances

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With regard to Rand's romances, it's simply not an issue for now, especially given that it looks like Elayne won't even appear in Season One and while Min will, she's likely to be a blink-and-you'll-miss-it presence in one or at most two episodes. Rand vaguely falls out of love with Egwene over the course of the first three books, but he also barely sees her during them - when they reunite in Tear at the beginning of book four they're both completely different people than who they were leaving the Two Rivers.

There are hints of the Elayne and Aviendha romances in book four, but Elayne is immediately separated from Rand for a very long time - after leaving Tear they don't see each other again until Rand visits her in Caemlyn which is in book nine. Aviendha's relationship with Rand doesn't become romantic - a development that due to circumstances is extremely sudden - until midway through book five. It would be perfectly possible for the show to completely drop those romances between seasons four and five and it would disrupt basically nothing previously established to that point.

Overall WoT's romantic elements are rather late developing. Mat, for all his vaguely playboy-ish behavior doesn't get involved in any sort of substantial relationship until he gets stuck in Ebou Dar in book six and doesn't meet Tuon until book eight. Rand's relationship with Min doesn't become serious until book six. Egwene's 'relationship' with Gawyn barely manages to unfold at all. Nynaeve's romance with Lan just sort of appears as a fait accompli and then they spend most of the series dealing with the bizarre obstacles the warder bond throws out in its direction. None of the minor romances Siuan/Gareth, Moraine/Thom, etc. even materialize as possibilities until the later books. Somewhat hilariously, it's only Perrin who actually gets anywhere significant in terms of romantic relationships in the first four books - and because he's so far ahead of everyone else Jordan had to continually hammer at that relationship in order to force drama.

I wouldn't be surprised if the show tried to accelerate some of the romantic elements early on, especially Rand/Min, simply to prevent the show from coming across as shockingly sexless for the first three seasons.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: romances

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With regard to Rand's romances, it's simply not an issue for now, especially given that it looks like Elayne won't even appear in Season One and while Min will, she's likely to be a blink-and-you'll-miss-it presence in one or at most two episodes. Rand vaguely falls out of love with Egwene over the course of the first three books, but he also barely sees her during them - when they reunite in Tear at the beginning of book four they're both completely different people than who they were leaving the Two Rivers.

There are hints of the Elayne and Aviendha romances in book four, but Elayne is immediately separated from Rand for a very long time - after leaving Tear they don't see each other again until Rand visits her in Caemlyn which is in book nine. Aviendha's relationship with Rand doesn't become romantic - a development that due to circumstances is extremely sudden - until midway through book five. It would be perfectly possible for the show to completely drop those romances between seasons four and five and it would disrupt basically nothing previously established to that point.

Overall WoT's romantic elements are rather late developing. Mat, for all his vaguely playboy-ish behavior doesn't get involved in any sort of substantial relationship until he gets stuck in Ebou Dar in book six and doesn't meet Tuon until book eight. Rand's relationship with Min doesn't become serious until book six. Egwene's 'relationship' with Gawyn barely manages to unfold at all. Nynaeve's romance with Lan just sort of appears as a fait accompli and then they spend most of the series dealing with the bizarre obstacles the warder bond throws out in its direction. None of the minor romances Siuan/Gareth, Moraine/Thom, etc. even materialize as possibilities until the later books. Somewhat hilariously, it's only Perrin who actually gets anywhere significant in terms of romantic relationships in the first four books - and because he's so far ahead of everyone else Jordan had to continually hammer at that relationship in order to force drama.

I wouldn't be surprised if the show tried to accelerate some of the romantic elements early on, especially Rand/Min, simply to prevent the show from coming across as shockingly sexless for the first three seasons.

Spoiler

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Also Min and Rand spend about 100X as much time together as lovers/in a relationship as him and the other two. They could easily have Avidendah and Elayne date each other and he has like a fling with each of them and nothing would change. Heck he barely talks to Elayne after book IV.

[Psyren]

And no sign of Thom or Loial.

Both have been cast, we just haven't gotten them in the promo material yet.

- how they deal with Mat in the first few seasons. Because let's be honest, Mat for the first two books is kind of a tool. Are they going to have him be an unlikeable jerkwad for such a significant early part of the show?
- Perrin's characterization. Since he, more so than the other characters, is a deeply introspective and internally focused character, and like 90% of his characterization and development comes through his internal dialogue.
- whether they're going to keep the whole ta'veren thing. It's a great, deliciously meta concept in the context of the books, but might come across as a little too esoteric for tv audiences. The main characters can still be the Pattern's Special Children without there needing to be an in-universe study of it, and the singling out of the trio when the girls (Egwene specifically) have equally meteoric and improbable character trajectories was always a little odd.

1) We've already got signs of Mat being different from the get-go here. The very first shot we see of him in the trailer is playing with dice after all

2) Perrin is the character I'm hoping gets the most changes. Like seriously, I don't know how Jordan made

Spoiler

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a Matrix-controlling wolf-king

so boring but he sure found a way.

3) I actually always liked that early line from Moiraine where she believed Egwene and Nynaeve were on the cusp of being ta'veren themselves. Certainly it would explain a lot about their respective meteoric rises if they were just in the club too. If we're going to emphasize their protagonist-ness as much as the trailer is hinting (especially Egwene's), that's a great reason to lean in.

I wouldn't be surprised if the show tried to accelerate some of the romantic elements early on, especially Rand/Min, simply to prevent the show from coming across as shockingly sexless for the first three seasons.

Judging by the trailer I don't think we have to worry about "sexless"

[Anteros]

Brandon Sanderson said a neat thing a while back that I like, which is that you can think of the show as another "turning of the Wheel". There look to be a lot of changes to stuff, and the showrunners seem to be taking a lot of liberty to shuffle things around significantly to make things work for TV, which so far I'm feeling pretty optimistic for.

I feel the opposite about it. I want to see the Wheel of Time, not someone's fan fiction re-write. I understand you have to change some things to make it work for tv, but they seem to be taking more liberties than I would like.

If Brandon "rewrite the magic system and change the protagonist in the last book" Sanderson says we need to think of it as a completely different turning, you know things are going to be wild.