Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

[Psyren]

One thing I'm hoping for is a tightening up of the timeline so that characters finish their respective arcs at the same time. One of the big problems with WoT is that character development is very unevenly distributed.

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Perrin arrives at the spot he needs to be for the Last Battle around about book 4. He spends about 8 books doing filler side quests of little importance.

Elayne's queen plotline plods along because the only thing that really mattered for it was her taking the throne, which occurred in book 5. She then doesn't do much, mainly acting as someone for Nynaeve to talk to as Nynaeve goes through her plotline.

Mat's plot is all over the place. He develops in fits and starts in books 1-3, gets some serious development in the next few, then vanishes from the story until Tuon shows up.

Reducing the scope of the plot and slashing filler stories is great for this. You move some events back a bit (like Perrin and the Two Rivers), move some a bit forward, and then you merge characters together to give meaningful things for the cast to do with the remaining storylines.

Agreed. The Forsaken need a lot of tuning/pruning as well.

[TheStranger]

I think the challenge is in agreeing on where the bloat is. Presumably there are those who love the Forsaken scenes and would hate to see them cut. We already have at least one person in this thread who enjoyed the Elayne/Andor plotline, and one who would cut the SL dagger if they could. I assume that *somebody* out there really enjoyed the Shaido, too. It seems like nobody's going to be satisfied with all of the cut/keep decisions that get made.

I kind of like the "another turning of the Wheel" approach to evaluating the show, tbh. There's just too much material in the books to do an adaptation that stays particularly close to the books. It's also unlikely that the show "fixes" all the things in the books that any given fan thinks need fixing, since we all have different opinions on that front. Better to go in without too many expectations based on the books and let the show succeed or fail on its own merits.

That said, I don't know that I'll be able to let go of my familiarity with the books enough to enjoy the show for what it is, or that I'll enjoy it if I do. I'll probably give the first few episodes a shot, but I may be past the point in my life where a WoT screen adaptation appeals to me.

[Psyren]

I think the challenge is in agreeing on where the bloat is. Presumably there are those who love the Forsaken scenes and would hate to see them cut. We already have at least one person in this thread who enjoyed the Elayne/Andor plotline, and one who would cut the SL dagger if they could. I assume that *somebody* out there really enjoyed the Shaido, too. It seems like nobody's going to be satisfied with all of the cut/keep decisions that get made.

Well, sure, just like not everyone is satisfied with everything in the books

But I'm not saying they should cut the Forsaken scenes. Quite the opposite! Watching them all scheme and plot in TAR and lament the barbarism of this Age is a lot of fun, even if we'll have to restructure those scenes to get out of one of their heads. But, I just don't think there's any way we can do 13 of them justice. Either we need fewer of them to start with, or all (well, most) of the ones that die early need to stay dead. Or both.

I kind of like the "another turning of the Wheel" approach to evaluating the show, tbh. There's just too much material in the books to do an adaptation that stays particularly close to the books. It's also unlikely that the show "fixes" all the things in the books that any given fan thinks need fixing, since we all have different opinions on that front. Better to go in without too many expectations based on the books and let the show succeed or fail on its own merits.

It's fine, however, to form expectations based on the trailer and the showrunner's own statements, which is something I'm definitely doing And based on what I've seen so far I expect (hope for) a bit more prominence for Egwene and Nynaeve than in the originals.

That said, I don't know that I'll be able to let go of my familiarity with the books enough to enjoy the show for what it is, or that I'll enjoy it if I do. I'll probably give the first few episodes a shot, but I may be past the point in my life where a WoT screen adaptation appeals to me.

If that's the case for you I understand, but I've been wanting this since before I had any hope that any fantasy series wouldn't be a chintzy low-budget affair. Thanks to streaming I don't have to worry about the showrunners needing to make up filler episodes to keep the actors busy, or the show failing because it got a crappy timeslot, or the network suits airing the episodes out of order because they don't care, and so on. TL

[Anteros]

Agreed. The Forsaken need a lot of tuning/pruning as well.

Shai'tan would agree.

[Mechalich]

But I'm not saying they should cut the Forsaken scenes. Quite the opposite! Watching them all scheme and plot in TAR and lament the barbarism of this Age is a lot of fun, even if we'll have to restructure those scenes to get out of one of their heads. But, I just don't think there's any way we can do 13 of them justice. Either we need fewer of them to start with, or all (well, most) of the ones that die early need to stay dead. Or both.

A large portion of the scenes that the Forsaken are actually in cover fairly important exposition and/or provide essential insight into the Dark One's character and honestly if I were in charge of the show I'd be tempted to add more of them. However, I do agree that 13 characters is simply too many to handle in any substantial way. Still, having high-powered baddies is useful for a long-running show, so I think it makes more sense to organize the Forsaken into two tiers: actual characters and disposable obstacles. The books already do this to a degree and really its just a matter of shifting a few over to the disposable side and giving the handful of substantial things they actually do over to others.

Of course, this is another late developing issue. In the first three books only one of the Forsaken - Lanfear - functions as an actual character. Aginor, Bathamel, and Be'lial are completely disposable baddies and Ishamel is functionally a mobile plot/exposition device who barely manages to operate as a person most of the time.

[Ashen Lilies]

Like I said in the other thread, I think at a minimum it would be better if all the Forsaken minus Ishy just stay dead. None of the Forsaken mk2 except for Moridin really do enough to earn their slot in the story. Osan'gar and Aran'gar are almost complete non-entities (with Aran'gar additionally having aged fantastically poorly as a gross anti-queer/anti-trans stereotype to add into the bargain) and even Cyndane doesn't do a whole lot except be confusing to the rest of the Forsaken and continue to do some weird wishy-washy ambiguous crap? Ishamael/Moridin can just be Shai'tan's favorite lunatic and get a thematic rebirth to further his being a dark mirror to Lews Therin/Rand but the rest should just stay gone.

I could see, additionally to that, trimming off some of the ancillary Forsaken who don't do much to start with, like Aginor and Balthamel, Bel'al, and maybe even Sammael. But I'm less keen on that than I am with the above suggestion.

[Anteros]

Agreed. The resurrected Forsaken don't really add anything to the story. They mostly just exist as a plot device in the Dark one's plan to push Rand into using balefire. You can easily accomplish that other ways, or even drop it.

[Psyren]

I'm okay with three of them:

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Moridin, Cyndane, and Hessalam.

Moridin is obvious, but you need one of the others to die and come back first to set up this ability of the Dark One and the need for balefire.

Lanfear I expect will stay as Lanfear (just weaker) for practical actress reasons - even with her previous appearance, getting depowered and fitted with a cour'souvra are plenty of narrative devices to keep her from haring off after Rand/Egwene/Aviendha the moment she's back. Of all the Forsaken she has the strongest tie to Rand save Moridin himself.

Graendal coming back hideous is poetic justice given her extreme vanity, and she is also the most effective Forsaken in the last battle next to Demandred. She is also Rafe's favorite according to the interview quotes, so the chances of her making it to the end are high.

Of course, this is another late developing issue. In the first three books only one of the Forsaken - Lanfear - functions as an actual character. Aginor, Bathamel, and Be'lial are completely disposable baddies and Ishamel is functionally a mobile plot/exposition device who barely manages to operate as a person most of the time.

This is actually one of the things I'd change:

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Setting up Asmodean for example as a weakling and a coward sooner will better pay off his eventual role as Rand's teacher, and having the others browbeat him in meetings will sell that. Maybe not for season/book 1, but book 2 seems useful.

[Ashen Lilies]

To be honest,

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I never really counted Hessalam in with the rest of the reborn Forsaken, since she isn't really "killed" by the good guys and isn't absent for any particular length of time (unless you count her presumed death at Natrin's Barrow) to shockingly reappear later. Her death and rebirth is just kind of something that gets slotted in as an extra detail to show that being a Darkfriend really does have the crappiest of workplace environments. From what I can remember, The Dark One has her tortured to death offscreen himself and then brought back right away as punishment for getting Aran'gar killed at Natrin's Barrow? or something? But it never actually occurs onscreen, so for reasons similar to what you mentioned for Lanfear re: the practicality of having to recast a role if you can reasonably avoid it, I would be fine with just dropping the whole 'Hessalam' switch and having Graendal survive in her original form through to the Last Battle.

A beautiful character being 'punished' by being made ugly is also just kind of a tiresome trope anyway, and even though it's justified by Graendal the character being exceptionally vain, so being made ugly is a punishment for her, less lookism in media would sit just fine with me.

Moridin is the main one that needs an actor swap. It's a whole thematic deal that Ishamael was Lew's Therin's evil opposite, and Moridin is Rand's, and him going from Lews Therin's age to closer to Rand's age in the process of his rebirth is a whole part of that, even aside from the fact that it makes their eventual bodyswap a lot less weird.

[Saph]

Agreed. The resurrected Forsaken don't really add anything to the story. They mostly just exist as a plot device in the Dark one's plan to push Rand into using balefire. You can easily accomplish that other ways, or even drop it.

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I don't know, I'd say Ishamael/Moridin's resurrection adds quite a bit. Ishy tells Rand over and over again that Rand can't win and that his fight's hopeless. Having Rand kill Ishy, only for him to be immediately resurrected, suddenly makes Ishy's argument make a lot more sense.

It also makes Ishamael's story hit a lot harder. He's the most powerful and favoured of the Dark One's servants, he's been gifted eternal life, and pretty much any luxury anyone could possibly imagine – he's living the life that Darkfriends dream about. And it's all meaningless, because the only thing he actually wants is the one thing he can never have.

[Psyren]

*snip*

Definitely agreed but you may want to spoiler some of that.

To be honest,

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I never really counted Hessalam in with the rest of the reborn Forsaken, since she isn't really "killed" by the good guys and isn't dead for any length of time (unless you count her presumed death at Natrin's Barrow) to surprisingly reappear later. Her death and rebirth is just kind of something that gets slotted in as an extra detail. From what I can remember, The Dark One has her tortured to death offscreen himself and then brought back right away as punishment for getting Aran'gar killed at Natrin's Barrow? or something? But it never actually occurs onscreen, so for reasons similar to what you mentioned for Lanfear, I would be fine with just eliding the whole 'Hessalam' thing and having Graendal survive in her original form through to the Last Battle.

A beautiful character being 'punished' by being made ugly is also just kind of a tiresome trope, and even though it's justified by Graendal the character being exceptionally vain, so being made ugly is a punishment for her, less lookism in media would sit just fine with me.

Moridin is the main one that needs an actor swap. It's a whole thematic deal that Ishamael was Lew's Therin's evil opposite, and Moridin is Rand's, and him going from Lews Therin's age to closer to Rand's age in the process of his rebirth is a whole part of that, even aside from the fact that it makes their eventual bodyswap a lot less weird.

As mentioned, I think it's fitting in her specific case because it's what SHE would consider the ultimate punishment. Not saying that the audience should see it that way. It's her character flaw; moreso than even the other Forsaken, she sees herself as superhuman, but moreover, that her beauty should reflect that. It's especially jarring because as a premier psychologist, she should recognize how illogical that thought process is, but being blind to their own vices to the point of self-destruction is ultimately what makes a Forsaken a Forsaken. (The ones who don't make it to Nae'blis, anyway.)

As for Moridin:

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No need to switch actors, he's going to be caked in makeup and CGI and voice effects as "Ba'alzamon" anyway. You could easily have Moridin underneath all that and nobody would know.

[Ashen Lilies]

Moridin:

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We'll see Ishamael in the flesh if we ever get a version of the prologue scene. Either as a cold-open like the books or as some kind of Moiraine/Thom storytelling framing flashback. I've seen rumors/leaks regarding a casting for Lews Therin (which I hope are true, dude looks like he'd be an awesome LTT), but any casting for Ba'alzamon/Ishy has been kept impressively under lock and key so far. I do have to wonder how they'll handle all that in regard to credits giving the game away early on that front, if they're trying to keep the same twist in the books with Ba'alzamon having been just this dude the whole time.

To me casting a middle-aged actor (similar in age to whoever they've got for Lews Therin) for Ishamon/Ba'alzamael and then a younger actor to go across Josha Stradowski is the way I'd want it to be handled, but you're right in that there are other ways to do it, and we won't know which one they've picked until they actually share that information with us.

[Psyren]

I do think it would be a lot simpler to have

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minor Actor A for Flashback Ishamael's one scene, and major Actor B for BA+Moridin who will have a lot more scenes,

rather than using three actors or moving BA to the A column.

The other option is that they don't show the prologue at all, but rather allude to it, and thus only have one actor to worry about. That will also distance this iteration from the disastrous Red Eagle pilot*. Rafe even alluded to this in the quote page linked earlier:

Question 39 - Prologue
Will we see the prologue from the Eye of the World on screen in season 1

Judkins
You will hear that phrase

*Speaking of which, for those who haven't yet seen - here it is in all its glory before Amazon inevitably scours all trace of it from the interwebs with legal balefire:

[Ashen Lilies]

Thank you so much for linking that, actually. I've been morbidly curious about it since I heard of it, but never enough to actually go searching for it myself. Now true horror is conveniently at my fingertips.

It's funny. If you asked me a year ago if I wanted tEotW's prologue as a cold open for the show I would have been all "hell to the no, that prologue was corny as heck, and no one ever knows what's going on the first time around" but as of right now my thoughts are in the complete opposite direction. It's dramatic, it's brutal (depending on how much attention you want to give to the aftermath of Lews Therin's namesake Kinslaying), and then it ends with the great visual of LTT turning his funeral pyre into a freaking volcano, which would then lead into whatever glitzily animated opening credits sequence they have for the show (I hope it involves a certain wind).

And if people find it confusing, then, well, these TV viewers shouldn't have been so silly as to expect to understand things, better than I did when I first picked up the book years ago.

[nightwyrm]

*Speaking of which, for those who haven't yet seen - here it is in all its glory before Amazon inevitably scours all trace of it from the interwebs with legal balefire:

If someone balefired that out of existence, it would actually improve the Pattern. Damn it's bad.

[Tvtyrant]

I think Aginor might be the most underutilized character in the whole series. He literally did more for Team Evil then anyone else, there wouldn't even be a final battle if not for him. Doing something other then how they used him would be nice.

[Psyren]

Thank you so much for linking that, actually. I've been morbidly curious about it since I heard of it, but never enough to actually go searching for it myself. Now true horror is conveniently at my fingertips.

Consider it a thank you for locating Rafe's quote page for me

...Or perhaps I just got away with horribly offending/assaulting your senses in a completely forum-rules-legal way. Mwahaha!

I think Aginor might be the most underutilized character in the whole series. He literally did more for Team Evil then anyone else, there wouldn't even be a final battle if not for him. Doing something other then how they used him would be nice.

My issue with Aginor is this. Yes, he invented shadowspawn and that's great. But that was the last Age - what has he done in this one? If he had gotten killed off in the last Age and never came back, what would that have changed in this one? That's right, not a thing. We got exactly three new Shadowspawn this age, none of which were made by him, and even his magnum opus (the gholam) didn't encounter or get used by him at all.

[TheStranger]

I think Aginor might be the most underutilized character in the whole series. He literally did more for Team Evil then anyone else, there wouldn't even be a final battle if not for him. Doing something other then how they used him would be nice.

On every reread of the series, I’m underwhelmed by Aginor’s treatment in EotW. Once we know anything at all about how channeling works, his confrontation with Rand makes zero sense. It’s bad enough that Rand can supposedly already handle more of the Power a month after he first channels than one of the most powerful Forsaken, but Aginor also decides to ignore his massive advantage in skill with the Power of favor of just drawing as much as he can but not using it for anything?

It’s a recurring problem with the Forsaken that appear in the first few books, I think. Setting them up as powerful channelers from the AoL while still letting Rand kill them is a tough balancing act, but IMO Aginor is the only one who’s completely unbelievable. I can buy Moiraine sucker punching Be’Lal, and Ishy is both insane and more than willing to sacrifice himself as part of some kind of gambit.

I think the Eye of the World scene would work with just Balthamel present, really. Let him fight with Moiraine and be crippled but not killed by the Green Man before Rand kills him, and you’ve hit most of the key story beats without Worfing the Forsaken nearly as much. You could even have Rand channel to protect one of his friends instead of running away from the fight. Then bring Aginor into the Black Tower in his original incarnation if you still want to use that plotline. Or the other way around - kill off Aginor at the Eye and save Balthamel for something else. But you probably don’t need to have two Forsaken being incompetent at the Eye.

[Psyren]

Ugh, I rewatched it myself - who the hell taught Billy Zane how to pronounce Aes Sedai? ("Ay-yez SYEDYE")

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On every reread of the series, I’m underwhelmed by Aginor’s treatment in EotW. Once we know anything at all about how channeling works, his confrontation with Rand makes zero sense. It’s bad enough that Rand can supposedly already handle more of the Power a month after he first channels than one of the most powerful Forsaken, but Aginor also decides to ignore his massive advantage in skill with the Power of favor of just drawing as much as he can but not using it for anything?

It’s a recurring problem with the Forsaken that appear in the first few books, I think. Setting them up as powerful channelers from the AoL while still letting Rand kill them is a tough balancing act, but IMO Aginor is the only one who’s completely unbelievable. I can buy Moiraine sucker punching Be’Lal, and Ishy is both insane and more than willing to sacrifice himself as part of some kind of gambit.

I think the Eye of the World scene would work with just Balthamel present, really. Let him fight with Moiraine and be crippled but not killed by the Green Man before Rand kills him, and you’ve hit most of the key story beats without Worfing the Forsaken nearly as much. You could even have Rand channel to protect one of his friends instead of running away from the fight. Then bring Aginor into the Black Tower in his original incarnation if you still want to use that plotline. Or the other way around - kill off Aginor at the Eye and save Balthamel for something else. But you probably don’t need to have two Forsaken being incompetent at the Eye.

And why did Aginor need the Eye at all?

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He's already protected from the taint, and it's not like the Eye is an amplifier like the Choedan Kal - or if it is, that wasn't at all explained. The whole point of the Eye is that a bunch of AS strained the taint out (killing themselves in the process) and left a big pool of clean Saidin for the baby Dragon to find later. And they hid Lews' stuff + the Horn there, so that Isshy's gaggle of deluded idiots over the centuries would never find them before the heroes did.

[nightwyrm]

I think if they don't use the LTT prologue in the opening of the 1st season, they could put it in as the opening of season 2 to replace the darkfriends social. Viewers would have a better context of what's happening in the prologue and it would give a better understanding of why Rand is in constant denial about being the Dragon in book 2.

[Rodin]

I'm giving up on spoilers since the thread is full to the brim of them already.

The Forsaken work well as a quirky miniboss squad and mostly don't need pruning (although I agree on the resurrections, they should be the first cut).

Most of them don't have that much characterization because they're the high powered opponents for our heroes to fight at the end of each book. I can see repurposing Aginor and letting Balthamel be the one that bites it, then you have Be'lal in book 3, Asmodean in book 4, Rahvin in book 5, Sammael in book 7....etc. etc.

Honestly, the only reason to trim them is that some of them don't do all that much. Combining some of the more persistent background Forsaken (like Graendal, Mesaana, and Semirhage) and cutting short others (Moghedien overstayed her welcome I thought) would get the numbers down nicely.

As a counter proposal, bring Demandred out sooner. He's supposed to be this big rival to Lews Therin, yet that role is completely supplanted by Ishmael and Demandred doesn't even show up until the final book. He got screwed nearly as much as Aginor did.

I realize looking at it that I've suggested cutting the female roles and enhancing the male roles. I don't think that's a problem though, because the male Forsaken don't do all that much for the most part. Aginor and Balthamel die immediately. Be'lal dies in the same chapter we meet him. Rahvin has one role - seduce Queen Morgase, then get killed. I don't recall us seeing much of Sammael in person - he was just the evil leader of Ilian that made that country the source of conflict in book 7. For Forsaken who actually matter, I think the ladies have it. It's difficult to cut male Forsaken because the only ones who have character development are Ishmael/Moridin and Asmodean.

[InvisibleBison]

I realize looking at it that I've suggested cutting the female roles and enhancing the male roles. I don't think that's a problem though, because the male Forsaken don't do all that much for the most part. Aginor and Balthamel die immediately. Be'lal dies in the same chapter we meet him. Rahvin has one role - seduce Queen Morgase, then get killed. I don't recall us seeing much of Sammael in person - he was just the evil leader of Ilian that made that country the source of conflict in book 7. For Forsaken who actually matter, I think the ladies have it. It's difficult to cut male Forsaken because the only ones who have character development are Ishmael/Moridin and Asmodean.

Also, most of the Forsake can have their gender swapped without causing any narrative problems. I think only Moghedian and Asmodean have to keep their book gender, because they both teach channeling at some point (unless those bits get cut, of course). For all the others, their gender isn't really important.

[Saph]

I realize looking at it that I've suggested cutting the female roles and enhancing the male roles. I don't think that's a problem though, because the male Forsaken don't do all that much for the most part.

That's because, generally speaking, the male Forsaken die and the female ones don't.

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Eye of the World: Aginor (death 1), Balthamel (death 1)
Great Hunt: Forsaken Day Off
Dragon Reborn: Ishamael (death 1), Be'lal (first winner of the You Don't Get A Resurrection Award)
Shadow Rising: Asmodean (clock starts ticking)
Fires of Heaven: Asmodean (clock runs out), Rahvin (second winner of the YDGARA), Lanfear (except not really)
Lord of Chaos: Story was running low on male Forsaken by this point so Dumai's Wells takes the place of the Forsaken Boss Fight
Crown of Swords: Sammael

It's actually quite extreme. By CoS, 7 out of the 8 male Forsaken have died at least once, while 0 out of the 5 female Forsaken have. I can't actually remember at what point the female Forsaken start dying, but it's pretty late.

[Ashen Lilies]

It's a trend that goes further than the Forsaken. Male villains just die, female villains are enslaved or suffer a fate worse than death.

[Tvtyrant]

On every reread of the series, I’m underwhelmed by Aginor’s treatment in EotW. Once we know anything at all about how channeling works, his confrontation with Rand makes zero sense. It’s bad enough that Rand can supposedly already handle more of the Power a month after he first channels than one of the most powerful Forsaken, but Aginor also decides to ignore his massive advantage in skill with the Power of favor of just drawing as much as he can but not using it for anything?

It’s a recurring problem with the Forsaken that appear in the first few books, I think. Setting them up as powerful channelers from the AoL while still letting Rand kill them is a tough balancing act, but IMO Aginor is the only one who’s completely unbelievable. I can buy Moiraine sucker punching Be’Lal, and Ishy is both insane and more than willing to sacrifice himself as part of some kind of gambit.

I think the Eye of the World scene would work with just Balthamel present, really. Let him fight with Moiraine and be crippled but not killed by the Green Man before Rand kills him, and you’ve hit most of the key story beats without Worfing the Forsaken nearly as much. You could even have Rand channel to protect one of his friends instead of running away from the fight. Then bring Aginor into the Black Tower in his original incarnation if you still want to use that plotline. Or the other way around - kill off Aginor at the Eye and save Balthamel for something else. But you probably don’t need to have two Forsaken being incompetent at the Eye.

Agreed. Having Aginor die near the end after having helped make a bunch of new Shadowspawn would have fit better. Or even died the same way he does

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the second time

and have it be a major sacrifice because it ruins their preparations for the Last Battle.

[Ashen Lilies]

As a counter proposal, bring Demandred out sooner. He's supposed to be this big rival to Lews Therin, yet that role is completely supplanted by Ishmael and Demandred doesn't even show up until the final book. He got screwed nearly as much as Aginor did.

I can name one particular way to bring Demandred out sooner that would make a bunch of long-time fans happy.

[Saph]

It's a trend that goes further than the Forsaken. Male villains just die, female villains are enslaved or suffer a fate worse than death.

Eventually, but it takes a lot longer.

The fact that the Dark One keeps on refusing to let the Forsaken stay dead is the only reason that the Forsaken meetups don't end up with the same sort of gender ratio as Charlie's Angels.

[TheStranger]

I can name one particular way to bring Demandred out sooner that would make a bunch of long-time fans happy.

Assuming you mean Taimandred, that would indeed be a solid choice for many reasons.

I kind of wonder if the show will trim any of the iterations of "this nation is ruled by one of the Forsaken, so Rand goes there, kills him, and takes over." Be'lal was fine, Rahvin was personal, but it feels a little repetitive by the time Sammael comes around. I'm not sure what's lost if they let the Seanchan have Illian (or just leave it independent) and leave Tear, Cairhien, and Andor firmly behind Rand.

[Mechalich]

I kind of wonder if the show will trim any of the iterations of "this nation is ruled by one of the Forsaken, so Rand goes there, kills him, and takes over." Be'lal was fine, Rahvin was personal, but it feels a little repetitive by the time Sammael comes around. I'm not sure what's lost if they let the Seanchan have Illian (or just leave it independent) and leave Tear, Cairhien, and Andor firmly behind Rand.

Sammael also contests Rand's reconquest of Cairhien, though he doesn't actually appear onscreen at any point (that battle is written in a rather deliberately surrealist way) and he is a major player in the extended Shaido plot as it unfolds, though Graendal also participates. Sammael is Rand's overall objective for almost three whole books as he starts making plans to attack Illian shortly after taking Cairhein in book five, it's just that stuff keeps getting in the way and the actual assault doesn't happen until much later. As such Sammael is probably the most impactful of the '90% offscreen' Forsaken.


More broadly, thinking about all of this, it's very clear that the showrunners will have to make a series of major choices after season three assuming the show is sufficiently successful to keep going at that point. Note that the odds are against this and I really think Amazon is probably only interested in having one flagship epic fantasy show so in order to survive WoT needs to topple the LotR show. Book 4 is actually surprisingly self-contained as it unfolds entirely in locations that are never again central to the action, which offers a prime window for the showrunners to take some time and plan out what they intend to do from that point onward.

[TheStranger]

More broadly, thinking about all of this, it's very clear that the showrunners will have to make a series of major choices after season three assuming the show is sufficiently successful to keep going at that point. Note that the odds are against this and I really think Amazon is probably only interested in having one flagship epic fantasy show so in order to survive WoT needs to topple the LotR show. Book 4 is actually surprisingly self-contained as it unfolds entirely in locations that are never again central to the action, which offers a prime window for the showrunners to take some time and plan out what they intend to do from that point onward.

I imagine Amazon will make as many seasons of as many epic fantasy shows as people will watch in sufficient numbers to justify their existence. But I really have no idea how all this is perceived outside of the extremely nerdy parts of the internet that I frequent. My worry is that WoT doesn't have the cultural penetration of LotR (or even the Witcher), or the dragons and boobs of GoT, which will make it hard to pull in enough of an audience for Amazon to keep it going. What WoT has going for it is that for a bunch of fantasy fans in their 30s and 40s, it is *the* epic fantasy of our generation. And the timing is right for nerdy guys in their 30s and 40s to now be high-ranking in major tech companies like Amazon and in a position to give the WoT show some legs.