Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

[Kornaki]

You can't think of anything else that Perrin did this season? :P

[Corvus]

He put something in the fridge I think. Can't remember what so it can't have been that important.

[Anteros]

It makes sense in a twisted way if you think about it. No wonder they said that they had to make a wife for Perrin to fridge as a clumsy way for them to introduce his internal struggle between violence and pacifism. They got it out of the way right at the start and never have to revisit the character again!

[Clertar]

I have a friend who is a huge TWOT fan, reads through the ton of books in the series periodically. He told me that there are a few books that he finds almost unbearable, and some others are just OK. The feeling I get is that TWOT fans have very high levels of tolerance for "bad" material, which is not a bad skill to possess

[Mechalich]

I have a friend who is a huge TWOT fan, reads through the ton of books in the series periodically. He told me that there are a few books that he finds almost unbearable, and some others are just OK. The feeling I get is that TWOT fans have very high levels of tolerance for "bad" material, which is not a bad skill to possess

I feel that any honest assessment of the Wheel of Time is that it is a good but not great piece of epic fantasy. It's above average compared to the majority of its peers, but the flaws are numerous, deep, and readily apparent. Truthfully, Wheel of Time is perhaps most notable that among the modern breed of fantasy series characterized by huge individual books of 200,000+ words and series that stretch to five books or more it is the rare series that managed to actually reach a satisfying conclusion. That it did so despite the fact that the main author died in the process is doubly notable.

I also feel it's important to say that while Jordan was far from the most gifted of fantasy writers, his prose is very readable, and most of the 'bad' material is not problematic because it's miserable to read at the time (though there are several characters who are truly interminable), but that there are huge chunks of the books, especially in books 7-12, that simply don't amount to anything in the end are essentially a word tax on the whole series.

[lord_khaine]

One youth series that'll always stick with me in that regard is the Last Airbender: plenty of capable female characters, present on both sides of the conflict, and they were written well enough that their strength and capability remained clear even when confronted with a strong male character. Katara's interaction with Pakku in book 1 is an excellent example how to handle a gender conflict without simply having one side overpower the other as the "solution".

The 3 initial books of the last Airbender is likely the best youth serie of its decade.
Its almost whatever you want an example of, it got it.
Great villians with depth, redemption arcs, strong characters of both genders, non-sucky comedy relief. The List goes on.
So far it sounds like its still far superior to this million dollar trainwreck.

Avatar doesn't render all men incapable of bending without going crazy, so I don't think that's the strongest comparison. Of course Randland's gender dynamics are off-kilter.

With how few channelers there is. And how distrusted it sounds like the Aes Sedai became (for.. reasons?), then bending/channeling dont seem relevant.

I feel that any honest assessment of the Wheel of Time is that it is a good but not great piece of epic fantasy. It's above average compared to the majority of its peers, but the flaws are numerous, deep, and readily apparent. Truthfully, Wheel of Time is perhaps most notable that among the modern breed of fantasy series characterized by huge individual books of 200,000+ words and series that stretch to five books or more it is the rare series that managed to actually reach a satisfying conclusion. That it did so despite the fact that the main author died in the process is doubly notable.

I also feel it's important to say that while Jordan was far from the most gifted of fantasy writers, his prose is very readable, and most of the 'bad' material is not problematic because it's miserable to read at the time (though there are several characters who are truly interminable), but that there are huge chunks of the books, especially in books 7-12, that simply don't amount to anything in the end are essentially a word tax on the whole series.

Truthfully yeah. Book.. 7-11 is basically a word tax. You could likely have boiled the content of them down to 1 book without missing anything relevant. Or 2 books and easily kept the pace.

Also.. well.. when Jordan is good he is great. When he isnt good its a bit of a slog.
But he did create a living, breathing world. And i do think he did a massive job for the fantasy genre.
Clearing the road for further authors and inspiring a generation of authors. I mean Eye of the World is more than 30 years old.

[Sapphire Guard]

Who would you consider 'great', then? Jordan is about on the level of Martin or Hobb, making up the three big names that can reliably sell. I like Malazan, but it's not as big, the only other comparable name successwise is Stephen King

Brandon Sanderson is okay but not on their level in success or skill. Joe Abercrombie and Mark Lawrence don't impress me. Raymond Feist is pretty solid.

[Traab]

Mercedes Lackey? Im a huge fan of her valdemar world, and like several of her other works. For a series written almost entirely out of any set of timeline its surprisingly well crafted and flows together well. It is a nicely crafted world that makes sense and has a consistent story that lasts thousands of years in universe with eventual tie ins across history. Also, most of the series can be read in any order you want and leave you neither confused as to whats going on, or spoiling the rest. There are a few series that involve the same characters where that doesnt apply but its mostly the case.

[Anteros]

Mercedes Lackey? Im a huge fan of her valdemar world, and like several of her other works. For a series written almost entirely out of any set of timeline its surprisingly well crafted and flows together well. It is a nicely crafted world that makes sense and has a consistent story that lasts thousands of years in universe with eventual tie ins across history. Also, most of the series can be read in any order you want and leave you neither confused as to whats going on, or spoiling the rest. There are a few series that involve the same characters where that doesnt apply but its mostly the case.

I find her work to be pretty simplistic and targeted towards a younger audience, although I haven't read a ton of it.

I agree with the sentiment that if Jordan isn't a "great" then who is? Any author who puts out a lot of work is going to find that some people don't love all of it. And Jordan put out a lot of work. Martin can't finish a series. King can't write endings. Etc. No author is perfect. Even Tolkien is incredibly dry and he's basically the grandpappy of modern fantasy. Personal opinions on their works are going to vary, but all of these wildly famous authors are "greats" in one sense or another.

Now, I'm probably one of the biggest Jordan fans there is, and even I'll skim through the sloggy late book Elayne and Perrin bits on re-read since I already know what will happen, but a few mediocre storylines in a series with dozens doesn't bring down the whole series. If we start hacking away at the source material to make things shorter we're going to lose a lot of the world building and expansiveness that made WoT unique.

[runeghost]

Who would you consider 'great', then? Jordan is about on the level of Martin or Hobb, making up the three big names that can reliably sell. I like Malazan, but it's not as big, the only other comparable name successwise is Stephen King

Brandon Sanderson is okay but not on their level in success or skill. Joe Abercrombie and Mark Lawrence don't impress me. Raymond Feist is pretty solid.

Gene Wolfe. Ursula K. LeGuin. Jack Vance. Fritz Leiber. L. Sprague de Camp. Tanith Lee. C.J. Cherryh. Terry Pratchett. Neil Gaiman. (And, personally, I'd add Steven Brust and Mary Gentle to the list as well.)

[lord_khaine]

Who would you consider 'great', then? Jordan is about on the level of Martin or Hobb, making up the three big names that can reliably sell. I like Malazan, but it's not as big, the only other comparable name successwise is Stephen King

Brandon Sanderson is okay but not on their level in success or skill. Joe Abercrombie and Mark Lawrence don't impress me. Raymond Feist is pretty solid.

Well. Terry Pratchett didnt write epic fantasy. But he certainly deserves a major spot. The same with Sanderson who i think is just about the most versatile writer i can think off.

Martin and Hobb are both good writers yeah, even if they stuck in a slightly different genre.
And Erikson would have been good if he could manage any degree of internal consistency.

[Rynjin]

I've grown colder and colder on Sanderson over the years. I couldn't even bring myself to finish Oathbringer and I haven't touched another of his books since. Mistborn still remains, to me, his best book. Not even the series, just the first book.

His obsession with interconnectivity and meaningless power scaling is just so tiresome. I get enough of the latter from shonen manga/anime, where the visual component can sell it as being more of interest, and have never liked the former as a main focus. I should never have to read an unrelated book series to understand the current one I'm reading.

It reminds me a lot of modern comics and their obsession with "epic" crossover events. I really don't give a ****, would you like to focus on telling a good standalone story instead? No? Okay...

[Anteros]

Sanderson's good at world building and magic systems. What he's not good at is characters, and arguably plots. Which is why he's such a strange pick for ending the WoT. The stuff that he's good at was all already done and all that's left was what he's bad at.

You could take Raoden, Lightsong, Kelsier, and his version of Mat...put them all in a story together, and you would not be able to tell them apart by dialogue. If you strip away external descriptors and individual magic powers, they're all basically the same guy. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that you could add some of his newer characters to that list as well. Say what you want about Jordan, but all of his characters had their own thought processes, tics, and personalities. Sanderson just writes on a much shallower level. He's a half step above mindless pulp authors like Salvatore.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by runeghost
Gene Wolfe. Ursula K. LeGuin. Jack Vance. Fritz Leiber. L. Sprague de Camp. Tanith Lee. C.J. Cherryh. Terry Pratchett. Neil Gaiman.

Spoiler

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C.J. Cherryh is one of the best writers out there. One of the few authors I can think of who is superbly talented at both fantasy and science fiction.

[lord_khaine]

Meaningless power scaling is a strange complain to level against Sanderson, who is one of the authors i know off where raw power does the least to influence the ending.
Key examples found in Starsight or Calamity.
I also cant think of a single of his books where you need to read anything but the books in the previous serie to understand what goes on.
The interconnectivity is just easter eggs.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet that you could add some of his newer characters to that list as well.

Its a good thing your not a betting man, that bet would be lost :P

What he's not good at is characters, and arguably plots.

See this could be argued. I would claim he has some of the most differently distinct characters.
Every main character in the Stormlight Archive is differently flawed.
And he certainly is the author i know whose plot most often manages to defy expectations.

[Rynjin]

Meaningless power scaling is a strange complain to level against Sanderson, who is one of the authors i know off where raw power does the least to influence the ending.

It's been many moons since I read it, but I'm still salty about the ending of the Mistborn trilogy where one of the characters becomes a god out of absolute nowhere and handwaves away the entire plot.

[DrK]

I’d agree with some of the above that some of the Jordan books aren’t great, but the sheer length and scope of the books (and a healthy dose of nostalgia) means that I still revisit WoT every few years. Although books 2-6 are my favourite I’ll read the lot and just skip the chapters I don’t like (mostly Elayne). Also, whilst I like Sanderson in this series I struggle with his others. Radiance 1 was good but struggling to do even finish 3.

In terms of other authors I’m a huge Erickson fan for the sheer depth and complexity but it’s not light reading. For that I like Eddings even if, like, Jordan, he isn’t great but I like the stereotypical tropes. Others I like are David Wragg, Phil Tucker and William King.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rynjin
...but I'm still salty....

What does this mean?

[Wintermoot]

What does this mean?

It's an idiom that means "I'm still angry about/I'm still upset about/I'm still annoyed by"

[Traab]

I’d agree with some of the above that some of the Jordan books aren’t great, but the sheer length and scope of the books (and a healthy dose of nostalgia) means that I still revisit WoT every few years. Although books 2-6 are my favourite I’ll read the lot and just skip the chapters I don’t like (mostly Elayne). Also, whilst I like Sanderson in this series I struggle with his others. Radiance 1 was good but struggling to do even finish 3.

In terms of other authors I’m a huge Erickson fan for the sheer depth and complexity but it’s not light reading. For that I like Eddings even if, like, Jordan, he isn’t great but I like the stereotypical tropes. Others I like are David Wragg, Phil Tucker and William King.

Im a big eddings fan, his belgariad series especially, feels like its a pure form of the chosen one heroic journey story. It doesnt really try to be more than that, and it doesnt have to. I would suggest it as a first book series to read to see if that sort of sword and sorcery heroes journey story genre is one you would like. After finishing that you can decide if you want to branch out into the more involved series.

[Anteros]

Meaningless power scaling is a strange complain to level against Sanderson, who is one of the authors i know off where raw power does the least to influence the ending.
Key examples found in Starsight or Calamity.
I also cant think of a single of his books where you need to read anything but the books in the previous serie to understand what goes on.
The interconnectivity is just easter eggs.



Its a good thing your not a betting man, that bet would be lost :P



See this could be argued. I would claim he has some of the most differently distinct characters.
Every main character in the Stormlight Archive is differently flawed.
And he certainly is the author i know whose plot most often manages to defy expectations.

I'll take your word for it. I'm certainly not going to subject myself to that much Sanderson looking for a counter argument. Apparently he finally learned how to write more than 4 or so personalities? Good for him!

The upside of this thread is that I actually have a few new authors to check out. It's odd that some of these slipped past my radar for so long, but I'm always down for a new good book.

[tiornys]

It's been many moons since I read it, but I'm still salty about the ending of the Mistborn trilogy where one of the characters becomes a god out of absolute nowhere and handwaves away the entire plot.

Spoiler: Mistborn trilogy

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Uh, if you think that came out of nowhere, you weren't paying attention to the clues.

[Rynjin]

It doesn't really matter how well it was foreshadowed, solving the plot of your trilogy with a literal Deus ex Machina is terrible. Sanderson can't write endings, The Reckoners ends pretty similarly with everything being wrapped up in a neat little bow in a way that seems super rushed.

So does his take on the WoT ending for that matter, though it's mitigated by Jordan's notes.

[tiornys]

The reason that deus ex machina is considered bad writing practice is literally the lack of foreshadowing, so no, I fully disagree with you re: Mistborn. Reckoners wasn't nearly as satisfying and I agree it felt rushed; frankly it's one of Sanderson's weakest endings. However, to say that Sanderson can't write endings is absurd. You want someone who can't write an ending, you want Neal Stephenson. He doesn't so much end his stories as just trail off after he gets through the stuff relating to the themes he wanted to explore.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If we're counting Urban Fantasy, well, there are a lot of authors I love, but Jim Butcher definitely deserves to be on the list because his books are also extremely popular.

[Rynjin]

His Codex Alera series was good epic fantasy too, so he counts either way.

[Anteros]

The reason that deus ex machina is considered bad writing practice is literally the lack of foreshadowing, so no, I fully disagree with you re: Mistborn. Reckoners wasn't nearly as satisfying and I agree it felt rushed; frankly it's one of Sanderson's weakest endings. However, to say that Sanderson can't write endings is absurd. You want someone who can't write an ending, you want Neal Stephenson. He doesn't so much end his stories as just trail off after he gets through the stuff relating to the themes he wanted to explore.

Well....no not really. Deus ex machina can be foreshadowed and still be bad. Like, no one debates the existence of the Greek gods in classical plays, or their participation in events, but it's still bad writing if they show up at the end and solve the problems for the protagonists.

We know the creator exists in WoT and that he can overpower the dark one, but no one wants a book where he shows up at the end and does so.

If we're bringing up authors who rely far too heavily on deus ex machina, I have to mention Brent Weeks. I've read two of his series, and both were reasonably interesting...until the end where the solution to all of their problems comes out of nowhere. In one case with a literal god stepping in.

His Codex Alera series was good epic fantasy too, so he counts either way.

Wasn't Codex Alera explicitly Butcher's attempt to take some of the most hackneyed ideas possible and turn it into a decent story? It's odd you'd bring it up though since the early books in that series were much better than the later ones. In the early books the protagonist is forced to be clever. In the later ones he gets a bunch of arbitrary power ups. It's not quite deus ex machina, but I wouldn't call it good writing either.

[Rynjin]

Wasn't Codex Alera explicitly Butcher's attempt to take some of the most hackneyed ideas possible and turn it into a decent story? It's odd you'd bring it up though since the early books in that series were much better than the later ones. In the early books the protagonist is forced to be clever. In the later ones he gets a bunch of arbitrary power ups. It's not quite deus ex machina, but I wouldn't call it good writing either.

He pulled two random ideas out of a hat (Pokemon and the lost Roman legion) and made a series out of it.

While Tavi gets more powerful as the series goes on, none of them are arbitrary save maybe the reveal that he does have abilities, his mother was just suppressing them. Everything else is pretty well earned, and none of it is ever enough for him to just wave his hands and solve the plot; only to keep up with the current threat level. He never stops having to be clever.

[Anteros]

He pulled two random ideas out of a hat (Pokemon and the lost Roman legion) and made a series out of it.

While Tavi gets more powerful as the series goes on, none of them are arbitrary save maybe the reveal that he does have abilities, his mother was just suppressing them. Everything else is pretty well earned, and none of it is ever enough for him to just wave his hands and solve the plot; only to keep up with the current threat level. He never stops having to be clever.

The series literally features

Spoiler

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the manifestation of a godlike figure right before the climax that grants the main character a massive powerup so he can deal with the enemy threat.

It's about as close to a deus ex machina as you can possibly get without Zeus himself dropping in.

[Rynjin]

The series literally features

Spoiler

Show

the manifestation of a godlike figure right before the climax that grants the main character a massive powerup so he can deal with the enemy threat.

It's about as close to a deus ex machina as you can possibly get without Zeus himself dropping in.

Said event also features long term consequences, and does not in and of itself solve the plot, again.

When I say someone becomes a god in the 11th hour and literally handwaves the plot away in Mistborn, I literally mean LITERALLY that is what happens. It is not at all the same thing as a character getting a power boost at the start of the final book that they can practice with over the course of the novel to beat the big bad at the end.

Tavi isn't given literal omnipotence to the point he can just snap away all the problems, along with any long term consequences that might have arisen from them. Though if we're drawing a 1:1 Mistborn comparison it'd be more like if Bernard (his uncle) became a god and solved everyone's problems instead, since it's a supporting character who does the "become a god fix everything" schtick.