Wheel of Time, Amazon Prime

[Gnoman]

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Rand only lost that one because he didn't know Callandor amplifies the taint too. So he went a bit crazy and zapped both armies. Had he used it properly (Cadsuane's method) he'd have been able to only zap the Seanchan and probably kicked them off the continent again.

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Cadsuane's method wouldn't have affected the amplified taint. It was a way to counter the other great flaw in Callandor - it lacks the buffer other sa'angreal use to prevent overloading the user.

More importantly, the zapping of both sides had much more to do with the Bowl of the Winds - multiple casters remark that both saidin and saidar are acting very oddly in that region, and there are other Power mishaps.

[Mechalich]

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The high point of the series for actual tactics is Knife of Dreams. Mat and Perrin actually think through the problems and fight equal or better forces without unearthing a nuke or slamming people together in a big mass.

And those battle are dominated by more or less conventional Early Modern Period armies with the majority of the Channelers either absent or neutralized from the start. Jordan and Sanderson, like many, many authors before them, struggled with integrating the full capabilities of their incredibly power magic users into the framework of fantasy warfare. That's pretty normal, actually. High magic conflicts almost always struggle to work out in a convincing fashion.

Jordan, to his credit, seems to have recognized this. He repeatedly cut away from magically empowered battle sequences - for example in the first Falme battle - to either focus on power duels (often at locations distinct from where the battle was occurring) or to emphasize the mindsets of critically important characters. He even staged a number of major encounters entirely off-screen and then had other characters report the events via a sort of after-action reporting.

In addition to this being an effective literary device - staging a set piece battle is a long and complex affair and requires a great deal of words and often isn't worth the effort if no major character is directly in the mix - this is actually a good thing for the show. Fantasy warfare is incredibly expensive to stage in properly convincing cinematic fashion by the standards of modern audiences (thank you Peter Jackson), and Jordan's writing style means that with a little sleight of hand the series doesn't actually have to run a full scale battle until the climax of Book Four comes along.

[Anteros]

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I don't know why you do that annoying white text for spoilers when it's just as easy to press the spoiler button and it makes you 10x less annoying to quote.

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Falling back only helps when someone else holds the line. You can survive that way for a while, but you can never win. There's a reason the other Forsaken call Mogheiden the Spider and hold her in contempt. And Semirhage has a continent. Whoo. How relevant was that? It wasn't. At all. Turns out that being on the other side of the ocean from any of your enemies is a significant drawback. Power only matters if you have the ability to apply it. Where would they even retreat to anyway? Every single major power already has a Forsaken or Rand in control of it. Sure, they could go hide in a village somewhere and hope to get an opportunity to do something one day. That's totally what you want your generals doing.

Semirhage and Mogheiden are both literally punished for running from confrontations with the protagonists in the books, so I don't know what you're on about there.

[Tvtyrant]

And those battle are dominated by more or less conventional Early Modern Period armies with the majority of the Channelers either absent or neutralized from the start. Jordan and Sanderson, like many, many authors before them, struggled with integrating the full capabilities of their incredibly power magic users into the framework of fantasy warfare. That's pretty normal, actually. High magic conflicts almost always struggle to work out in a convincing fashion.

Jordan, to his credit, seems to have recognized this. He repeatedly cut away from magically empowered battle sequences - for example in the first Falme battle - to either focus on power duels (often at locations distinct from where the battle was occurring) or to emphasize the mindsets of critically important characters. He even staged a number of major encounters entirely off-screen and then had other characters report the events via a sort of after-action reporting.

In addition to this being an effective literary device - staging a set piece battle is a long and complex affair and requires a great deal of words and often isn't worth the effort if no major character is directly in the mix - this is actually a good thing for the show. Fantasy warfare is incredibly expensive to stage in properly convincing cinematic fashion by the standards of modern audiences (thank you Peter Jackson), and Jordan's writing style means that with a little sleight of hand the series doesn't actually have to run a full scale battle until the climax of Book Four comes along.

I agree! It's not a series where the author is really focused on tactical warfare. Which is why I was arguing against the point that Sammael is told but not shown to be a tactical genius. In a series where commanders routinely throw away armies he holds off a much larger army, and actually anticipates scry and die tactics. That is as good as anyone does who isn't Mat in this series.

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Perrin's use of spies and poison in Knife of Dreams is also quite good later in the series.

[russdm]

Can we get a rundown on who the forsaken all are and what they could do?

I remember of them being:
That guy who shows up in the first book and for that first seal and the eye thingie
Lanfear - Lews old ex girlfriend/wife who was super beautiful and hated Lews totally
Lews friend guy from the Lews kills everybody at home and guy made Lews go sane and Lews went nuts because of what he did
That lady that did thing and then had another body and then Rand blows her up with the balefire
That guy that Rand beats up and so joins Rand. Is Asmodean?
That guy that shows up for confronting the Dark One at the place right there before Rand goes into the Pattern portal place
The guy leading that nation of Dark One supporters, not the same as above
The guy that appears after Mat takes the dagger from the cursed city and then goes off to corrupt Rand's male channel changers (okay, I don't think that this guy was a Forsaken, but I think that I remember that he was a total Forsaken wannabe)
The guy that was involved with Perrin in the dream world fighting
The guy that claimed that was the Dark One, probably the same guy from the first book and who was involved with the first seal

I know that I have to have missed some

Also my memory of what happened in the books (it has been a while since I last read them and I may get things totally wrong):
1) Moira lady with Lan picks up the 3 guys (mat, perrin, rand) and the two gals (nyneave, egwene) and they later fight some trollocs; mat visits the cursed city and the group goes wandering around a few places and then Rand meets the guy that claims to be the Dark One; then they go to visit that place where the first seal is and Rand fights that guy and dies and gets the first seal
2) Rand meets Min and Elayne, group (rand, egwene, mat, perrin, Lan, moira lady) goes through some places, something to do with white tower, something to do with the sea, something about the seanchan
3) rand meets Lanfear, something then later meeting the Aiel people, then some time there, then going off somewhere and back to aiel, something happens/happening at the white tower (nyneave and egwene maybe), white tower decides to do something about rand, try to take him
4) white tower holds rand prisoner, egwene and nyneave train at white tower, mat goes somewhere else, perrin does something, some point they meet logain the ogier
5) white tower releases rand after problems, egwene and nyneave and elayne end up with seanchan, whole damane thing
6) rand goes on to visit place with the callendor sword, and mat goes somewhere to get horn of hero summoning, perrin does wolf stuff or does some aiel stuff or whatevs, then off for blacksmithing; rand kills a Forsaken with the callendor sword
7) stuff in others plots about Rand and callendor, and then killing the Forsaken with callendor, start of the dark one serving aes sedai stuff
8) Perrin is a blacksmith and something about he goes to rescue faile, mat blows the horn of Hero summoning, rand kicks lanfear out, then goes off to aiel place does a thing, white tower civil war plot starts up, rand ends up on dragonmount, Lan goes off to fight trollocs to die, elayne bonds with Brigitte here
9) elayne bonds with Brigitte, Forsaken lady dies, another Forsaken appears and maybe dies, rand's black tower gets going, dagger guy shows up to black tower to try to take over, elayne takes over the throne thing, whole bunch of stuff with the whitecloaks and them spreading around, seanchan get their second invasion of the land going, mat marries tuon..., egwene fights to be named head of the white tower, nyneave and Lan agree to hookup and marry
10) rand has his moment of becoming sane with Lews, we learn about rand's parentage, rand meets tam and later meets cadsuane, mat goes somewhere to do something, perrin kills a bunch of aiel, something about shaido/shadow, rand breaks the callendor sword and cleanses the saidin/saidar, the white tower problems almost over with
11 - 13 & 14) the brandon Sanderson novels

Should I be putting this review in spoilers?

[Gnoman]

The Forsaken were:

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Ishamael - Joined the Shadow out of nihilism - the Light had to lose sooner or later, so why not now? Not properly sealed with the rest, he was the one who freed Lews Therin from madness to reveal what LTT had done to all his kin, and he periodically became active again in the world. He led the armies of the Shadow against Manetheren in the Trolloc Wars, turned Artur Hawkwing against the Aes Sedai, and founded the Black Ajah. Using the name Ba'alzamon, and believed to actually be Shai'tan, he tried to seduce Rand, Mat, and Perrin in their dreams, and led the Darkfriends of the world until being stabbed through the heart with Callendor in the World Of Dreams version of Tear. Reborn as Moridin, he was put in charge of all the Forsaken, and faced Rand directly at the Last Battle

Rahvin - Used Compulsion to warp Queen Morgase to his will, crippling the nation of Andor. Hunted down and balefired by Rand because the latter believed Rahvin had murdered her.

Demandred - Lews Therin Telamon's great rival in the Age of Legends, brought the armies of Shara to fight for the Shadow in the Last Battle. Tried to take on Lan Mandragoran with a sword.

Sammael - Ruled Ilian, and scattered the Shaido everywhere to cause chaos. He was Rand's target for several books, and died in a confrontation at Shadar Logoth.

Aginor - Sealed too close to the surface, and spent three thousand years aging. Killed while fighting Rand for control of the Eye Of The World. Reborn as O'san'gar, infiltrated the Black Tower before being killed during the Cleansing of Saidin.

Balthamel - Sealed too close to the surface, and spent three thousand years aging. Killed by the Green Man at the Eye Of The World. Reborn as Aran'gar, infiltrated the Little Tower at Salidar before being exposed and fleeing. Killed by enormous amounts of Balefire by Rand.

Asmodean - A composer who claimed to have joined the Shadow in the hope of endless music. Crowned the chief of the Shaido as a false He Who Comes With The Dawn, switches sides and teaches Rand after being tracked down and defeated. Murdered by Graendal.

Be'Lal - Ruled Tear, killed with Balefire by Moraine.

Lanfear - Lover of Lews Therin Telamon before Ilyena, insanely possessive. Tried repeatedly to possess Rand, trying to convince him to overthrow Shai'tan and rule the universe at her side. Thrown into the Tower Of Genji by Moraine, reborn as Cyndane. Killed by Perrin at the Last Battle

Semihrage - Formerly a great healer, but with a great love of torture. Manipulated the Seanchan heavily before wiping out the entire Imperial Family, was balefired with the True Power by Rand.

Mesaana - Infiltrated the White Tower, lead the Black Ajah in deposing Suian and causing the great schism. Mind turned to goo by Egwene

Graendal - Expert at Compulsion, did relatively little except collect an vast number of beautiful people Compelled into blind worship of her until being reborn as the extremely ugly Hessalem. Nearly won the Last Battle singlehandedly before a mishap caused her attempt to Compel Avihenda backfired on her, causing her to worship Avihenda.

Moghedien - Made the initial attempt to secure the Domination Band, but was foiled twice by Nyneave before being captured and collared by Nyneave. Provided a huge number of lost (and "lost") weaves to the Little Tower before being freed by Arangar, tries to kill Nyneave in revenge but only succeeds in clearing her block, and avoids the battle at the Cleansing. Tries to infiltrate the Seanchan at the Last Battle, revealed by Min, and temporarily takes command of the Shadow's forces disguised as Demandred. Defeated by cannonfire, she is collared by the Seanchan.

M'hael - Recruited and Turned a large number of Ashaman and captive Aes Sedai to the Shadow, forming an army of Dreadlords to fight at the Last Battle. Killed by Egwene with the Flame of Tar Valon.

[Psyren]

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Cadsuane's method wouldn't have affected the amplified taint. It was a way to counter the other great flaw in Callandor - it lacks the buffer other sa'angreal use to prevent overloading the user.

Her method applied to both the buffer and the taint amplification. She made that very clear.

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More importantly, the zapping of both sides had much more to do with the Bowl of the Winds - multiple casters remark that both saidin and saidar are acting very oddly in that region, and there are other Power mishaps.

I actually thought that was due to Aviendha's unweaving in that spot.

Graendal and Moghedien's specialty is intelligence, they don't need to hold land.

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Graendal specifically says that all of the Chosen are expected to lead armies too actually, even her. Moghedien in one of her POVs mentions having done so even, though she hates it.

But why? Shows being good at fighting actually matters rather than just brute force.

What purpose does saying he is strong serve if it never comes up or matters to the narrative? Informed attribute is just sloppy writing.

That's the point. Means they have to be cautious rather than force v force. Sammael also had one of that pattern disrupting cheat codes in Liah showing up to be the super distraction at the right moment.

There is no way in hell he orchestrated Liah showing up then, and it didn't even matter anyway.

Going to Graendal's palace would involve trusting Graendal. Which is generally a bad idea.

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He had her under his thumb that entire book, even in her own POV.
It didn't amount to anything of course, because almost nothing they do does.

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Rand loses against Rahvin, Belal, Asmodean and Sammael without pattern cheat codes.

I wouldn't put Asmodean in that list honestly, that was fair and square.
Be'lal was less cheat code than just sheer awesomeness from Womandalf.

I don't know why you do that annoying white text for spoilers when it's just as easy to press the spoiler button and it makes you 10x less annoying to quote.

Because if I'm only covering up 1-3 words at a time, having a bunch of grey lines throughout my posts surrounding those feels excessive. For whole phrases and sentences I do use them. If you want, you can just do "@Psyren:" rather than quote me if that is easier - I won't mind.

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Falling back only helps when someone else holds the line. You can survive that way for a while, but you can never win. There's a reason the other Forsaken call Mogheiden the Spider and hold her in contempt. And Semirhage has a continent. Whoo. How relevant was that? It wasn't. At all. Turns out that being on the other side of the ocean from any of your enemies is a significant drawback. Power only matters if you have the ability to apply it. Where would they even retreat to anyway? Every single major power already has a Forsaken or Rand in control of it. Sure, they could go hide in a village somewhere and hope to get an opportunity to do something one day. That's totally what you want your generals doing.

Semirhage and Mogheiden are both literally punished for running from confrontations with the protagonists in the books, so I don't know what you're on about there.

Their contempt is irrelevant, she proved the value of that approach. She'd have won completely (or at least escaped it all to live like a queen) if she didn't have the Perception check of a blind goat.

As for the punishments you mention, you're wrong - those were specifically for disobeying orders and being captured, not for retreating.

[Gnoman]

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I actually thought that was due to Aviendha's unweaving in that spot.

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Elayne's unweaving, not Avihenda's. However, the strange feel began before the unweaving was attempted.

Talaan wavered, a reed in the wind, casting surreptitious glances at her mother, plainly afraid to sit. Aviendha stood straight, her fixed expression saying that willpower had as much to do with that as anything else. She gave a slight smile, though, and made a gesture in Maiden handtalk—worth the price—and then another—more—right behind. More than worth the price. Everyone looked weary, if not so much as those who had used angreal. The Bowl of the Winds went quiet at last, just a wide bowl of clear crystal, but decorated now with towering waves. Saidar still seemed to be there, though, not being wielded by anyone, not visible, but in dimly felt flashes like those that had played around the Bowl at the end.
Nynaeve raised her head to glower at the cloudless sky, then lowered her gaze to Caire. “All that, for what? Did we do anything, or not?” A breath of air stirred across the hilltop, warm as the air in a kitchen.
The Windfinder struggled to her feet. “Do you think Weaving the Winds is like throwing the helm over on a darter?” she demanded contemptuously. “I just moved the rudder on a skimmer with a beam as broad as the world! He will take time to turn, time to know he is supposed to turn. That he must turn. But when he does, not the Father of Storms himself will be able to stand in his way. I have done it, Aes Sedai, and the Bowl of the Winds is ours!”
Renaile moved into the circle, kneeling beside the Bowl. Carefully she began folding the white silk around it. “I will take this to the Mistress of the Ships,” she said to Nynaeve. “We have fulfilled our part of the bargain. Now, you Aes Sedai must fulfill the rest of yours.” Merilille made a sound in her throat, but when Elayne glanced at her, the Gray appeared a study in composure.
“Maybe you’ve done your part,” Nynaeve said, rising unsteadily. “Maybe. We’ll see when this . . . this skimmer of yours turns. If it turns!” Renaile stared hard at her across the Bowl, but Nynaeve ignored her. “Strange,” she muttered, rubbing her temple. The bracelet-and-rings caught in her hair, and she grimaced. “I can almost feel an echo of saidar. It must be this thing!”
“No,” Elayne said slowly. “I can feel it, too.” Not just the dimly perceived crackling in the air, and not an echo, exactly. More the shadow of an echo, so faint that it was as if she were feeling someone use saidar at a. . . . She turned. On the horizon to the south, lightning flashed, dozens of bolts vivid silver-blue against the afternoon sky. Very near to Ebou Dar.

Right from the first Elayne wished that she had asked Aviendha for the woman-cloaked-in-her-own-hair; she was weary, too, and all the saidar she could draw was barely enough to form the weave so it would work. The flows wavered in her grasp almost as if trying to twist free, then snapped into place so suddenly that she jumped; channeling when you were tired was not at all like other times, but this was the worst ever. At least the familiar vertical slash of silver appeared as it should, and widened into an opening right alongside the cistern. An opening no bigger than the one Aviendha had made, and at that, Elayne was grateful it was large enough to fit a horse through. At the last, she had not been certain it would be. Gasps rose from the Kinswomen, seeing a view of an upland meadow suddenly standing between them and the familiar gray bulk of the cistern.

[Rynjin]

What purpose does saying he is strong serve if it never comes up or matters to the narrative? Informed attribute is just sloppy writing.

I think it can matter in terms of showing that a character's skill and intelligence matters more than their raw ability. If we see one guy throwing around enough power to level mountains, but getting beat by someone who's definitively weaker, but just BETTER it makes the protagonists come across as more than just "the chosen ones who have however much ability they need to succeed". The victory becomes more earned.

This is something they could make more explicit in the show and make a really good scene out of.

[Psyren]

I think it can matter in terms of showing that a character's skill and intelligence matters more than their raw ability. If we see one guy throwing around enough power to level mountains, but getting beat by someone who's definitively weaker, but just BETTER it makes the protagonists come across as more than just "the chosen ones who have however much ability they need to succeed". The victory becomes more earned.

This is something they could make more explicit in the show and make a really good scene out of.

In my mind, the way to show Aginor's skill and intelligence would precisely be to not have him be as strong as the others, yet still high ranking in the Shadow regardless thanks to his utility. Sort of what they tried (and failed) to do with Be'lal.

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Elayne's unweaving, not Avihenda's. However, the strange feel began before the unweaving was attempted.

None of those are conclusive; she was channeling while extremely tired at the time.

Hopefully we can at least agree that whether the Bowl was the cause of the anomaly or the Unweaving, both happening in roughly the same spot didn't help matters.

[russdm]

So, I then got a number of the Forsaken confused with each other. Interesting

Was my list of remembered plot events accurate any, in the post with what I thought were the various Forsaken? Or I am remembering a bunch of those wrong? It feels like I am.

[Saph]

In my mind, the way to show Aginor's skill and intelligence would precisely be to not have him be as strong as the others, yet still high ranking in the Shadow regardless thanks to his utility. Sort of what they tried (and failed) to do with Be'lal.

Aginor is a mad scientist, not a battlefield commander. This actually explains quite a lot about the various Shadowspawn once you think about it – Trollocs, for example, are a "perfect soldier" as designed by someone who'd never commanded soldiers.

Skill and intelligence at bio-science does not make you a capable duellist or strategist.

[Psyren]

Aginor is a mad scientist, not a battlefield commander. This actually explains quite a lot about the various Shadowspawn once you think about it – Trollocs, for example, are a "perfect soldier" as designed by someone who'd never commanded soldiers.

Skill and intelligence at bio-science does not make you a capable duellist or strategist.

I agree with all that. So what's the point in saying he's technically stronger than almost all of them if he can't ever use that strength? It doesn't make sense.

[Blackhawk748]

I agree with all that. So what's the point in saying he's technically stronger than almost all of them if he can't ever use that strength? It doesn't make sense.

Because his raw strength lies I've very different skills. It's be like having a healer who has incredible capacity with the Power but has no real skill outside of healing.

[Sapphire Guard]

A writing technique is never bad writing by itself. It's in how it's used.

If you only ever write things that are strictly necessary for the story, then you end up with very stale generic predictable stories, because the reader can metagame and predict everything.

[Psyren]

Because his raw strength lies I've very different skills. It's be like having a healer who has incredible capacity with the Power but has no real skill outside of healing.

But nothing he's good at is established as needing strength, so it doesn't add anything. We don't know anything about the process to create shadowspawn in the first place. Maybe it uses the True Power? If so, why isn't he showing any of the effects of that? He would have had to tap it pretty regularly to make all the varieties of shadowspawn that he did, were that the case.

Like if they want to say "he's totally one of the strongest, trust us, even though he gets his ass kicked every time he fights literally anyone" - then that's their prerogative. But for me, it's just sloppy.

[tiornys]

Like if they want to say "he's totally one of the strongest, trust us, even though he gets his ass kicked every time he fights literally anyone" - then that's their prerogative. But for me, it's just sloppy.

Why does it bother you so much for strength to be separate from combat skill? Frankly it adds verisimilitude for me since it parallels physical strength vs. physical combat ability in real life.

[Psyren]

Why does it bother you so much for strength to be separate from combat skill? Frankly it adds verisimilitude for me since it parallels physical strength vs. physical combat ability in real life.

Being separate from combat isn't what bothers me. What bothers me is that his strength isn't used for anything in the story. Pointing it out is thus useless.

Let me tackle this from a different direction - if they had said Aginor was weaker than the others, but valued for his brilliant research for the Shadow, would any of you have questioned it?

[Anteros]

Maybe it takes a lot of power to make a Trolloc. It does to make ter'angreal and such.

Regardless, the whole point of describing the Forsaken to the reader or the protagonists is to make them seem threatening and build them up. There's not much narrative point in a weak forsaken. Especially since they have plenty of flaws already.

[Sapphire Guard]

No, but I wasn't questioning it the other way either.

I'm also not seeing the reason 'useless' is seen as the same as 'bad, and needs to be removed or else it's bad writing'.

[Psyren]

There's not much narrative point in a weak forsaken. Especially since they have plenty of flaws already.

By weak I meant "weak for a Forsaken" - like Be'lal and Moghedien. Note how both of those two bring something else to the Shadow (clever planning - well, that one ended up being an informed attribute too, but anyway - and TAR power) that makes up for them being weaker than the others in a raw sense.

I'm also not seeing the reason 'useless' is seen as the same as 'bad, and needs to be removed or else it's bad writing'.

It's more extraneous/inelegant/sloppy than outright bad.

The show may not bother with explicit power levels anyway, which would render this whole topic moot.

[Traab]

You could make the case that every Forsaken who tried to kill Rand was kind of a moron. Aside from their own personal idiocy, they should all know enough about how prophecy works to know that Rand isn’t going to die before he does all the various things he’s been foretold to do (WoT has some unpleasant implications for fans of free will). So I’ll give Lanfear half a pass for trying to control Rand rather than kill him, but take that away because her only reason for that is that she’s still hung up on her ex 3,000 freaking years later.

Ishy is a special case, though. When we see him as Moridin he clearly gets that Rand is going to be at TG, and he’s working to manipulate everything leading up to that, not to stop it. Early-book Ishy is less clear, but my headcanon is that he wasn’t really trying to win when Rand fought him in the first two books, and even when Rand killed him that may have all been according to plan.

This I disagree with. Just because your plan wont work doesnt negate the existence of free will. You can choose to try and murder someone that fate says will survive. Choice doesnt equal success. In fact, it proves free will is a real thing because despite the existence of the prophecy that they all know, they still try to kill him anyways. Because they chose to. Personally, if I wanted to be smart, the way i would deal with rand is to strike wherever he isnt. You can win a game of chess by capturing all the pieces rather than focusing on the king. Instead of going after rand, go after his support. Take out his advisors, take out his armies, take out his backing. He can come to the last battle with the half dozen buddies he managed to keep near him and avoid assassination attempts. Use your agents to spread discord and resistance to rand as the dragon reborn, cost him allies through manipulation and deceit. Never fight him directly unless you have absolutely no choice. Even then, fight to escape or to force a retreat, because a kill aint happening.

Also, the whole thing with

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the big fight in shadar logoth. Wasnt part of the reasoning being that the absurd taint in the area made channeling the male half of the power far more difficult and dangerous? it has been SO LONG since I read the books, but I seem to remember channeling being a problem for rand there. Like the taint resonated with the even fouler taint in shadar logoth, making it harder to maintain control or some such. Personally, if I had 3k years experience in using the power on my opponent, going to a place where using the power is harder would be a good idea as i would have a clear advantage that would just get stronger over the course of the fight.

[lord_khaine]

I agree with all that. So what's the point in saying he's technically stronger than almost all of them if he can't ever use that strength? It doesn't make sense.

Why does it have to make sense?
It helps drive home that forsaken tier strenght is in part a case of lucking out on the "genetic" dice.
When a lab nerd is still absurdly strong, even if he newer seriously learned to fight. Because he dont care about it.

Also, the whole thing with

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As i recall the main part was Sammael had prepared the battlefield ahead of time. It was basically covered in detection wards.
But if it hindered channeling Sammaen had even more advantage, since he was protected from the taint.

[Psyren]

Why does it have to make sense?

I suppose it doesn't, at that

[TheStranger]

This I disagree with. Just because your plan wont work doesnt negate the existence of free will. You can choose to try and murder someone that fate says will survive. Choice doesnt equal success. In fact, it proves free will is a real thing because despite the existence of the prophecy that they all know, they still try to kill him anyways. Because they chose to. Personally, if I wanted to be smart, the way i would deal with rand is to strike wherever he isnt. You can win a game of chess by capturing all the pieces rather than focusing on the king. Instead of going after rand, go after his support. Take out his advisors, take out his armies, take out his backing. He can come to the last battle with the half dozen buddies he managed to keep near him and avoid assassination attempts. Use your agents to spread discord and resistance to rand as the dragon reborn, cost him allies through manipulation and deceit. Never fight him directly unless you have absolutely no choice. Even then, fight to escape or to force a retreat, because a kill aint happening.

Also, the whole thing with

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the big fight in shadar logoth. Wasnt part of the reasoning being that the absurd taint in the area made channeling the male half of the power far more difficult and dangerous? it has been SO LONG since I read the books, but I seem to remember channeling being a problem for rand there. Like the taint resonated with the even fouler taint in shadar logoth, making it harder to maintain control or some such. Personally, if I had 3k years experience in using the power on my opponent, going to a place where using the power is harder would be a good idea as i would have a clear advantage that would just get stronger over the course of the fight.

I’m not sure having free will but being doomed to fail is substantially better than not having free will, but ymmv. I agree with you on the smart way to fight Rand. I think it’s implied that once Rand reaches TG there’s a pivotal point beyond which things aren’t predetermined, but I could be misremembering that. Or try to turn Rand so that his victory is the Shadow’s victory. Or, wasn’t Lanfear involved in freeing the Dark One in the first place? What stops the Forsaken from letting Rand “win” TG and sacrifice himself to fix the seals, then poking a new hole in the Dark One’s prison?

I think Sammael is a good illustration of the difference between strategy and tactics. If Sammael had a good plan for fighting Rand, and executed his plan perfectly, and the result is that he came in an impressively close second in a fight to the death, he may have made a strategic error somewhere along the way. I mean, if your plan is good, and your execution is good, you ought to be the one standing at the end. Alternately, you want to go to great lengths to avoid situations where good planning and good execution still get you killed.

Mat gets this, I think. Completely aside from tactics, he’s pretty consistent in wanting to have the battle won before the fighting even starts, and in wanting to avoid the battle entirely otherwise (and just on general principles - a man could get killed in a battle, you know).

[Traab]

I’m not sure having free will but being doomed to fail is substantially better than not having free will, but ymmv. I agree with you on the smart way to fight Rand. I think it’s implied that once Rand reaches TG there’s a pivotal point beyond which things aren’t predetermined, but I could be misremembering that. Or try to turn Rand so that his victory is the Shadow’s victory. Or, wasn’t Lanfear involved in freeing the Dark One in the first place? What stops the Forsaken from letting Rand “win” TG and sacrifice himself to fix the seals, then poking a new hole in the Dark One’s prison?

I think Sammael is a good illustration of the difference between strategy and tactics. If Sammael had a good plan for fighting Rand, and executed his plan perfectly, and the result is that he came in an impressively close second in a fight to the death, he may have made a strategic error somewhere along the way. I mean, if your plan is good, and your execution is good, you ought to be the one standing at the end. Alternately, you want to go to great lengths to avoid situations where good planning and good execution still get you killed.

Mat gets this, I think. Completely aside from tactics, he’s pretty consistent in wanting to have the battle won before the fighting even starts, and in wanting to avoid the battle entirely otherwise (and just on general principles - a man could get killed in a battle, you know).

As a general rule, your comments on plans and such make sense. But only in the real world where fate itself doesnt seem to be going out of its way to enforce destiny. I mean, lets say you had the perfect plan to fight someone in hand to hand combat. This plan was working, you are closing in for the kill. Then you accidentally slip on a pencil that was half buried in the sand and do the splits, tearing your groin. Your opponent proceeds to snap your neck like a twig while you scream in agony. Was your plan a bad one because pure chance cost you the win?

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Thats the problem the bad guys are facing. "pure chance" by which I mean the universe itself, ensures that SOMETHING will happen to allow rand to at least survive if not outright win a lethal confrontation. It doesnt matter if they went full xanatos with a 90 step plan that has 50 different outcomes that end in victory all of which are entirely out of rands ability to directly even know are happening let alone influence, if at the last second, just as you are about to land the killing blow, a pigeon flies in front of your swing and causes you to flinch, missing your final strike. And yeah, I love Matt, especially early on in his career as an officer and a gentleman. I still remember him charging the enemy with his newly formed band behind him, screaming out curses in the old tongue while everyone copies him thinking its a battle cry and not him cursing himself for a fool for doing something so stupid.

[Misery Esquire]

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I still remember him charging the enemy with his newly formed band behind him, screaming out curses in the old tongue while everyone copies him thinking its a battle cry and not him cursing himself for a fool for doing something so stupid.

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Mat : Men! As we go into battle today, be sure of two things! Victory, and salwenya vost den mogde volestia*!
Noble 1 : What'd he say?
Noble 2 : Uh... Fools... We fools. Without choice? Oh, I get it.
Noble 1 : Do tell!
Noble 2 : Fate makes fools of us all.
Noble 1 : Ah, he's very wise for such a young lord.
Noble 2 : Friends with the Dragon, you know.

*Old Tongue for "We're the only idiots that they could get to do this."

[Anteros]

That's one of the things I actually don't like about the setting. Ultimately, Moridin is right. They ARE stuck in an endless loop without real free will. Sure, they can (maybe) make small decisions for themselves, but ultimately the pattern is going to loop them back around to the same major events no matter what they do.

Even the protagonist's victory is basically pre-ordained when you consider that they've won the conflict what is basically an infinite number of times in a row before. It really lowers the stakes of the story once you figure out that the protagonists can't actually lose.

[Rynjin]

That's one of the things I actually don't like about the setting. Ultimately, Moridin is right. They ARE stuck in an endless loop without real free will. Sure, they can (maybe) make small decisions for themselves, but ultimately the pattern is going to loop them back around to the same major events no matter what they do.

Even the protagonist's victory is basically pre-ordained when you consider that they've won the conflict what is basically an infinite number of times in a row before. It really lowers the stakes of the story once you figure out that the protagonists can't actually lose.

This isn't entirely accurate, from what I remember. Isn't the point of the Last Battle that all bets are off? This is the one where the Dark One COULD finally win permanently, because while fate will arrange for the Last Dragon to get TO the battle, it doesn't guarantee victory?


And, of course, Rand only survives to the Last Battle if he is, in fact, the prophesied Dragon. There's a few points in the series where it's possible he could have been yet another impostor besides the obvious meta knowledge that we know he's the main character (and therefore...he's gonna win anyway).

[TheStranger]

As a general rule, your comments on plans and such make sense. But only in the real world where fate itself doesnt seem to be going out of its way to enforce destiny. I mean, lets say you had the perfect plan to fight someone in hand to hand combat. This plan was working, you are closing in for the kill. Then you accidentally slip on a pencil that was half buried in the sand and do the splits, tearing your groin. Your opponent proceeds to snap your neck like a twig while you scream in agony. Was your plan a bad one because pure chance cost you the win?

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Thats the problem the bad guys are facing. "pure chance" by which I mean the universe itself, ensures that SOMETHING will happen to allow rand to at least survive if not outright win a lethal confrontation. It doesnt matter if they went full xanatos with a 90 step plan that has 50 different outcomes that end in victory all of which are entirely out of rands ability to directly even know are happening let alone influence, if at the last second, just as you are about to land the killing blow, a pigeon flies in front of your swing and causes you to flinch, missing your final strike. And yeah, I love Matt, especially early on in his career as an officer and a gentleman. I still remember him charging the enemy with his newly formed band behind him, screaming out curses in the old tongue while everyone copies him thinking its a battle cry and not him cursing himself for a fool for doing something so stupid.

I get your point that bad luck can screw up the best plans, and I agree that Rand’s plot armor makes it harder to say whether Sammael‘s plan is otherwise good. But Rand is known in-universe to have plot armor, so any plan that doesn’t take that into account is suspect, IMO. Sammael is fixated on defeating Rand in battle/combat as his path to victory. It makes perfect sense given what we know of him as a character, but I don’t think it’s half as smart as the Forsaken that try to control him instead.

Even setting aside plot armor, Forsaken fighting Rand were 0-for-4 at that point counting only the ones Sammael knew about, including Be’Lal and Rahvin on their own turf. So Sammael’s brilliant plan is to engineer another one-on-one fight? Also, and this is an important planning consideration, he dies if things go bad. There’s a time to go all-in on a coin toss, but it shouldn’t be Plan A. There’s a reason Graendal was happy to see Sammael trying it.

Contrast Mesaana’s Rand-in-a-box gambit (I can’t recall if it was ever stated to be her plan, but I don’t think much was happening in the Tower without her approval at that point). Obviously it didn’t work out, but I don’t recall that it had the disadvantage of requiring prophecy to be wrong in order to succeed. And even though it failed, Mesaana lost basically nothing from the attempt other than a few Black sisters. Plus, even the failure has some good outcomes in the impact on Rand’s mental state. To me, that looks a lot smarter than Sammael putting all his eggs in the basket of being able to beat Rand in a fight.