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Thread: It's Not A Gate

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    And they will be the first to call the bluff. They are half ready to end it all even before the threat can be made. If it looks like the ritual can be completed in ten weeks, or days, or hours, they will unmake everything in ten minutes and sneak off to their carefully provisioned winter quarters to wait out The Snarl.

    If TDO is still around by then they may ask his help in the new world just to make it stronger against TS, but he may not make it or he may lack the power to do much by then.

    So, the plan will not work. It's a hard backfire.
    The fact that the gods will not allow the plan to come to fruition does not mean that the plan to use the teleporting rift to threaten them would not work. In fact, I think it's pretty clear evidence that it would work because they're willing to go so far to keep the nuke out of the dark one's grasp in the first place.

    But assuming the ritual goes off, calling the dark one's bluff is the exact thing the gods will not do. Blowing up the world before the bluff is even made is not calling it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    The fact that the gods will not allow the plan to come to fruition does not mean that the plan to use the teleporting rift to threaten them would not work. In fact, I think it's pretty clear evidence that it would work because they're willing to go so far to keep the nuke out of the dark one's grasp in the first place.

    But assuming the ritual goes off, calling the dark one's bluff is the exact thing the gods will not do. Blowing up the world before the bluff is even made is not calling it.
    Fair. What's the word for calling a bluff before it can be made? That's what they'll do.

    Whether or not it's a good plan depends heavily on its probability of success. When the probability hits a hard zero, it's a bad plan. Durkon tried to tell him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Fair. What's the word for calling a bluff before it can be made? That's what they'll do.

    Whether or not it's a good plan depends heavily on its probability of success. When the probability hits a hard zero, it's a bad plan. Durkon tried to tell him.
    I believe in this case it's flipping the table over and sending the chips flying, and then waiting until the gremlin that was pinned under the table calms down before trying to pick them up.

    And yeah, that's one of the central conflicts in this book so far, trying to convinced Redcloak that his plan is doomed to failure and to try a new tactic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Does TDO know this? Or is he operating off incorrect assumptions?
    The latter, I believe. TDO doesn't seem to have the best report with the other gods. Or maybe he has been told he wouldn't survive but thinks that is a bluff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    What it is called in universe or on the forum isn't really important. After all, a rose by any other name would still give you hayfever and infected thorn pricks. Or whatever it is Julie was whining about in that play.

    My intent was not to correct the name, but to correct what I see as incorrect assumptions about the structures.

    Modern users of the word have a specific object in mind when the word is used, and it appears to me that the comic is clear that the gates, once opened, cannot be simply closed. This implies, to me, a patch. A patch, when ripped off, can make the original damage worse. This happened at Soon's Gate and may have happened at Girard's and the others too.

    Of course, there were five people who had exact knowledge of what they are and what they can do. One of them is Serini.

    Serini seems to believe allowing the gate to fall into Xykon's hands is preferable to letting OotS 'accidentally' or intentionally destroy it. Rather than suppose an error in judgement by one of the five most succesrful adventurers of her generation, I propose that she knows something I (we) do not. While I have opined on what some of those things might be, I have no particular favorite, other than that it won't and can't be made to do what TE wants it to do.

    Even Roy agrees that we don't know enough about the gates. Maybe Serini does.
    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    And I believe it is.

    The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.

    You cannot demonstrate it to cow the unimpressed, and you cannot benefit in its aftermath once used.

    Dillinger's soap-gun would have been useless in a prior age because it would have looked as harmless as it really was. To be effective it would have to have been something the guard recognized or he would have to have used it to hurt someone.

    Both of these things cannot be done in OotS because almost nobody knows about the gates, automatically making any threat of destroying it not a creditable threat, and any demonstration of it would be the last act the demonstrator performs.

    "King of Nowhere, submit to me or I shall unleash The Snarl!"

    "Oh my gosh! Wait, did he say Kraken? What's a Snarl? Someone show me a Snarl!"

    There is an empty threat for you: one that makes you look foolish for uttering it. It's a bluff, and one that will be called more often than not.
    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    And they will be the first to call the bluff. They are half ready to end it all even before the threat can be made. If it looks like the ritual can be completed in ten weeks, or days, or hours, they will unmake everything in ten minutes and sneak off to their carefully provisioned winter quarters to wait out The Snarl.

    If TDO is still around by then they may ask his help in the new world just to make it stronger against TS, but he may not make it or he may lack the power to do much by then.

    So, the plan will not work. It's a hard backfire.
    Again,
    1. it seems quite clear (based on what she tells two people she has no reason to lie to) that Serini believes the Ritual does what Xykon thinks it does; in that case, she
    1.1. either believes that the Ritual works and allows Xykon to unleash and contain the Snarl as he pleases
    1.2. or that the Ritual doesn't work and Xykon will destroy the world trying to use it (less likely than 1.1, since Serini states that Xykon will get to rule the world if Team Evil captures the Gate).
    2. If she knows what the Ritual does (unlikely), her plan doesn't sound any better:
    2.1. supposing she thinks things will work as intended, conceding the Gate to Team Evil will give a nuke to a vengeful god who might fire it off out of spite if his demands aren't met;
    2.2. supposing she thinks the Plan is bound to fail and the gods will destroy the world before the Ritual could be completed (even more unlikely, because there's no way she knows about the Godsmoot), through letting Team Evil have the Gate, she knowingly dooms the world.

    So, depending on what she knows, she is likely to think that her "brilliant and genial" plan will let a CE creep have control over the Snarl (which might easily lead to the world being devoured) OR she thinks the same creep will accidentally get the world devoured when the Ritual fails to do what it was supposed to do OR she thinks that giving Big Purple a nuke he's not afraid to use is a good idea OR she thinks the gods destroying the world is a preferable outcome.
    Her approach, subsequently, only makes sense if she believes that the Plan will succeed which you claim to be impossible.

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    I think maybe the most parsimonious explanation is that Serini doesn't know the Plan. The Order of the Scribble has fought a ton of random villains who sought to use the power of the rifts for their own purposes, and Xykon sure seems like yet another of that variety, not least because he thinks he is. Redcloak's actual plan is a pretty well-kept secret (to avoid Xykon killing him, for starters), so the fact that it's the sort of thing that would send the gods to Defcon 1 isn't something that she's aware of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Again,
    1. it seems quite clear (based on what she tells two people she has no reason to lie to) that Serini believes the Ritual does what Xykon thinks it does; in that case, she
    1.1. either believes that the Ritual works and allows Xykon to unleash and contain the Snarl as he pleases
    1.2. or that the Ritual doesn't work and Xykon will destroy the world trying to use it (less likely than 1.1, since Serini states that Xykon will get to rule the world if Team Evil captures the Gate).
    2. If she knows what the Ritual does (unlikely), her plan doesn't sound any better:
    2.1. supposing she thinks things will work as intended, conceding the Gate to Team Evil will give a nuke to a vengeful god who might fire it off out of spite if his demands aren't met;
    2.2. supposing she thinks the Plan is bound to fail and the gods will destroy the world before the Ritual could be completed (even more unlikely, because there's no way she knows about the Godsmoot), through letting Team Evil have the Gate, she knowingly dooms the world.

    So, depending on what she knows, she is likely to think that her "brilliant and genial" plan will let a CE creep have control over the Snarl (which might easily lead to the world being devoured) OR she thinks the same creep will accidentally get the world devoured when the Ritual fails to do what it was supposed to do OR she thinks that giving Big Purple a nuke he's not afraid to use is a good idea OR she thinks the gods destroying the world is a preferable outcome.
    Her approach, subsequently, only makes sense if she believes that the Plan will succeed which you claim to be impossible.
    Can you explain where you get the idea that Serini believes the gate will do what Xykom thinks it will do?

    I have read through the taunting of the paladins, and nowhere does she say or imply this. The closest she comes is in describing a hypothetical outcome in which Xykon wins as preferable to one in which the world ends. She does not say these are the only two possible outcomes. Her only intent was to hammer home the point that the paladins have never even considered any outcome other than, "Don't allow Xykon to have a gate at all costs."

    And she does lie to the paladins when she has no reason to do so, just for fun.

    And the dichotomy: she must believe everything TE wants can be acomplished, or she's just handing them the nuclear football. There is no middle ground? Just after a lecture from her about the dangers of binary thinking? What if there is another option? I have speculated on some possiblities, as have others.

    Serini has been working on this problem longer than any other character in the story has been alive. I'm sure she has thought of at least a third possible outcome.

    I think that she believes the worst case is that TE will gain possession of the gate and discover that they can't do anything with it, any more than they could do anything with Dorukons gate. Their choice then is between suicide and bluffing for concessions, and neither of them appears to be suicidal. (Hard to rule the world when you are dead. And there's no world.)

    I think she believes that there is a more likely outcome if TE finds the gate. They discover that it can't do what they want it to do, and turn on each other. The problem solves itself.

    In fact, frustration over their inability to find the gate may lead to a breakup of TE, so, again, self solving problem.

    It's not a black or white problem, as Auntie Serini points out. If you only see black or white answers, you miss a whole rainbow of options. That's what she was telling the paladins.
    Last edited by brian 333; 2021-09-15 at 12:17 PM.

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    One of Serini's stated reasons for taking the paladins and order out is to prevent a conflict that would threaten the gate. If she's banking on an alliance between villains falling through when they find the gate being a safer option...

    Well. she's more optimistic than I am about such a situation if so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Can you explain where you get the idea that Serini believes the gate will do what Xykom thinks it will do?
    "Xykon is a vicious *******, but he just wants to rule the world not destroy it. And the world is a big, big place. It'll survive a few years of a villain calling the shots"

    It's indeed not implied. She explicitly says that Xykon will get to rule the world for years if Team Evil wins. Controlling the Gate alone wouldn't let him to that.

    And she does lie to the paladins when she has no reason to do so, just for fun.
    Lying about letting them go was funny for her because it set up a "punchline" (more of a punch than a line, really): she got to bonk them and gloat about how clever she is.

    I'm sure she has thought of at least a third possible outcome.
    Good for you.

    I think that she believes the worst case is that TE will gain possession of the gate and discover that they can't do anything with it, any more than they could do anything with Dorukons gate.
    It's Dorukan (not to be confused with Durkon), and that was because of the sigil, which they would have bypassed if it weren't for a phenomenal case of bad luck, so that's not really a valid argument.

    Their choice then is between suicide and bluffing for concessions, and neither of them appears to be suicidal. (Hard to rule the world when you are dead. And there's no world.)

    I think she believes that there is a more likely outcome if TE finds the gate. They discover that it can't do what they want it to do, and turn on each other. The problem solves itself.
    How so? They have seen two Gates from up close. Even if the Plan is bound not to work (which is not the positive certainty you present it as), they wouldn't find that out simply by looking at the Gate.
    If, in turn, you mean that the Ritual doesn't work, period, well, that is a baseless speculation on your part that I see no reason to address beyond pointing out that it was devised by a god and the other gods are willing to believe that it works as intended, while Serini She's a funny little halfling who thinks she's very clever.

    In fact, frustration over their inability to find the gate may lead to a breakup of TE, so, again, self solving problem.
    If Serini counts on that, she must be desperate.

    It's not a black or white problem, as Auntie Serini points out. If you only see black or white answers, you miss a whole rainbow of options. That's what she was telling the paladins.
    There's a whole range of possible outcomes, but most of them invlove the world being devoured or destroyed. Like I said, the only scenario I can think of where Team Evil would capture the Gate and that would still be avoided is the one where the Plan works, but you don't like that one.

    (And one more thing: if you think the solution is going to be "Team Evil was never a real threat because <insert the Gate is not a gate nonsense here>", I'm pretty confident you are up for copious amounts of disappointment.)
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-09-15 at 02:28 PM. Reason: .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    "Xykon is a vicious *******, but he just wants to rule the world not destroy it. And the world is a big, big place. It'll survive a few years of a villain calling the shots"

    It's indeed not implied. She explicitly says that Xykon will get to rule the world for years if Team Evil wins. Controlling the Gate alone wouldn't let him to that.
    She says no such thing explicitly. What she does say is that Xykon's goal isn't so bad, in the context of contrasting it against the Paladin's desperation to deny bad guys a victory.

    Anything you think this says about a connection between securing the gate and actually achieving his goal is you making inferences based on what she doesn't say. While plausible, I don't think it a particularly likely reading. Doubly so if you consider the general flow of the conversation of Serini knocking down point by point the paladins' fundamental way of thinking about the situation.

    If Serini counts on that, she must be desperate.
    That's an odd response, given that the person you're replying is listing "that" as merely being one of
    a whole range of possible outcomes
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-09-15 at 03:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    While plausible, I don't think it a particularly likely reading.
    So "Team Evil may as well win, because they are after world domination and that's the worst they can achieve" is an unlikely reading now?

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    The forums have talked a lot about what Serini thinks the ritual will do... but do we have any reason at all to think that Serini has any idea there's a ritual? Or that Team Evil has a plan for using the gate? Or even that Team Evil is even capable of doing something with them?

    Actually, we know that Serini knows that the gates imprison the snarl, but does she even know anything beyond that? The mere fact of being on the Order of the Scribble is something, but doesn't imply all that much.

    Anyways,
    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    So "Team Evil may as well win, because they are after world domination and that's the worst they can achieve" is an unlikely reading now?
    Yes. In fact, I find it even more likely that's what Serini thinks than what you previously claimed she was saying.
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-09-15 at 05:28 PM.

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    I believe she was arguing a hypothetical.

    Question: is the destruction of any gate a superior outcome to letting Xykon control it?

    Serini's Answer: No. Endangering the stability of existence to prevent a short-term problem like Xykon becoming King of Everywhere is not a fair trade.

    Reasons given include, but are not limited to:
    Xykon might kill millions, the end of existence kills everyone.
    Xykon wilk enslave millions, they and their children will still exist on liberation day.
    Xykon will destroy the dignity of the good people, there are many who are just as deserving of that dignity who may have a better chance of getting it under Xykon's rule.

    Nowhere in the hypothetical argument does she say, "This is my goal." She only says, "Of the two alternatives you paladins present, enslavement under Xykon is superior to the end of the world."

    So far, Serini has not said a single word about what her goal might be or how she plans to achieve it. I have speculated, not to say, "I know her plan," but to offer plausible options.

    Your mileage may vary on how plausible my options are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    The forums have talked a lot about what Serini thinks the ritual will do... but do we have any reason at all to think that Serini has any idea there's a ritual? Or that Team Evil has a plan for using the gate? Or even that Team Evil is even capable of doing something with them?
    That's one fair point, you see. That said, she does know that Xykon wants to rule rather than destroy the world (as the Order and even the Guard (v. Miko) previously believed), so she's certainly not completely ignorant of what the "official" version of Team Evil's plans is. What she doesn't seem to know is that the main roster of Team Evil essentially belongs to three rival teams with opposing goals.

    Actually, we know that Serini knows that the gates imprison the snarl, but does she even know anything beyond that? The mere fact of being on the Order of the Scribble is something, but doesn't imply all that much.
    Right? That's one of my issues with Brian's "Serini might no more than the gods" thing. Dorukan, the resident nerd of the Scribblers and one of the two people who perforemed the sealing of the Rifts believed that worse things can happen to his Gate than getting destroyed. The idea that Serini somehow knew more than he did just strains credibility.

    Anyways,

    Yes. In fact, I find it even more likely that's what Serini thinks than what you previously claimed she was saying.
    ?

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    I believe she was arguing a hypothetical.

    Question: is the destruction of any gate a superior outcome to letting Xykon control it?

    Serini's Answer: No. Endangering the stability of existence to prevent a short-term problem like Xykon becoming King of Everywhere is not a fair trade.

    Reasons given include, but are not limited to:
    Xykon might kill millions, the end of existence kills everyone.
    Xykon wilk enslave millions, they and their children will still exist on liberation day.
    Xykon will destroy the dignity of the good people, there are many who are just as deserving of that dignity who may have a better chance of getting it under Xykon's rule.
    This hypothetical does assume that Xykon can achieve world domination which Serini couldn't find even remotely plausible were she to believe that controlling the Snarl is impossible.

    Nowhere in the hypothetical argument does she say, "This is my goal." She only says, "Of the two alternatives you paladins present, enslavement under Xykon is superior to the end of the world."

    So far, Serini has not said a single word about what her goal might be or how she plans to achieve it. I have speculated, not to say, "I know her plan," but to offer plausible options.
    I don't think I ever said that her goal is to make Xykon the God Emperor of Dune Stickworld. But we do know that her current plan involves letting Team Evil be and hunting down everyone who disagrees with this course of action.
    Also, I don't find your options particularly plausible. What you outlined in the OP for instance assumes that
    1. Serini somehow knows more about the Gates than freakin' Dorukan (v. my response to Hurkyl above) and
    2. Team Evil was never actually a real threat.

    Your mileage may vary on how plausible my options are.
    To each their own, of course and I'll get off your back if that's what you want. I just thought that since we are mainly here, on this forum to aggressively dissect each other's little opinions, I might as well do that and give you some feedback.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.
    Hmm, seen some odd nuke events in Starcraft games that makes me doubt this analysis ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That's one fair point, you see. That said, she does know that Xykon wants to rule rather than destroy the world (as the Order and even the Guard (v. Miko) previously believed), so she's certainly not completely ignorant of what the "official" version of Team Evil's plans is. What she doesn't seem to know is that the main roster of Team Evil essentially belongs to three rival teams with opposing goals.



    Right? That's one of my issues with Brian's "Serini might no more than the gods" thing. Dorukan, the resident nerd of the Scribblers and one of the two people who perforemed the sealing of the Rifts believed that worse things can happen to his Gate than getting destroyed. The idea that Serini somehow knew more than he did just strains credibility.



    ?



    This hypothetical does assume that Xykon can achieve world domination which Serini couldn't find even remotely plausible were she to believe that controlling the Snarl is impossible.



    I don't think I ever said that her goal is to make Xykon the God Emperor of Dune Stickworld. But we do know that her current plan involves letting Team Evil be and hunting down everyone who disagrees with this course of action.
    Also, I don't find your options particularly plausible. What you outlined in the OP for instance assumes that
    1. Serini somehow knows more about the Gates than freakin' Dorukan (v. my response to Hurkyl above) and
    2. Team Evil was never actually a real threat.



    To each their own, of course and I'll get off your back if that's what you want. I just thought that since we are mainly here, on this forum to aggressively dissect each other's little opinions, I might as well do that and give you some feedback.
    I am not offended. I am enjoying the challenge. Facing ideas and opinions that are not my own is how I learn.

    Serini may know more than the gods about the gates. They are not all-knowing. Whether she does or not, I think she knows more about her gate than anyone, gods included.

    As for whether she is smarter than Dorukon, the real question is, are the gates the same? Soon's gate was destroyed with a katana. Months of goblins attacking Dorukon's gate resulted in dead goblins. Perhaps she knows something we do not.

    The multidimensional stone mentioned in the flashback comes to mind. We do not know its properties. I bet she does. She may know it can't be teleported, making the ritual useless on this one gate.

    Or she may not know anything about the ritual and wrongly believes that she's covered all the possible ways it could be exploited.

    Either way, in her apparent opinion, she doesn't need three-time gate crashers ruining her years of preparation.

    Next

    A hypothetical need not have any association with a real person's beliefs. Let's say that we were discussing a fetish and I commented that as consenting adults they have the right to do that. Does it tell you anything about my moral opinion on the fetish?
    "If he defends people who do that he must do that," is just as invalid as, "If he does that he'd have just said it's okay."
    (picked a random hypothetical so we don't correlate it with anything in the comic)

    The thing is, arguing one extreme versus another tells us nothing about where in the spectrum she really aims to land. Especially when it was the paladins, and not Serini, who set up the endpoints of the discussion as polar opposites with no space between them for other alternatives.

    We really have no idea what Serini finds plausible because she was arguing a hypothetical that asked if letting Xykon rule the world was better than the end of the world. She was never asked if Xykon's plan would work, and she offered no opinion on that. And we'd have no way to check her opinion if she offered it.

    As for letting TE be and going after everyone else, I play the BS card. So far, her 1st layer of defense is working. Who kows it won't be enough? And gate defenses are like ogres have layers. It may be months before TE even comes close to progress.

    Your assertion that she has done nothing about TE is just as invalid as my assertion that she has a temple full of undead-hating monks on the way if she can hang on for two more days. We do not know, and absence of evidence is eviden... Evidence of absence...
    Proof of evidence is ab...
    You know what I'm saying.

    Serini has confidence in her plan. We know this from her attempt to remove unwanted disruption from outsiders.

    Whether her confidence is merited or not is another issue, and one that has too many unanswered variables to compute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    I am not offended. I am enjoying the challenge. Facing ideas and opinions that are not my own is how I learn.

    Serini may know more than the gods about the gates. They are not all-knowing. Whether she does or not, I think she knows more about her gate than anyone, gods included.

    As for whether she is smarter than Dorukon, the real question is, are the gates the same? Soon's gate was destroyed with a katana. Months of goblins attacking Dorukon's gate resulted in dead goblins. Perhaps she knows something we do not.
    It wasn't the Gate that killed the goblins. It was the sigil placed on the Gate, and like I said, they only failed to bypass it beacuse of a bout of early installment weirdness phenomenal bad luck.

    The multidimensional stone mentioned in the flashback comes to mind. We do not know its properties. I bet she does. She may know it can't be teleported, making the ritual useless on this one gate.
    If Serini's wand of Dimension Door works just fine, I see no reason to suspect that a teleportation effect devised by a god wouldn't. Even Dorukan's Cloister wasn't fully teleportation-proof.

    Or she may not know anything about the ritual and wrongly believes that she's covered all the possible ways it could be exploited.
    Now, that wouldn't surprise me.

    Either way, in her apparent opinion, she doesn't need three-time gate crashers ruining her years of preparation.
    Two-time. They had little to do with Soon's. Also, Team Evil is a bunch of one-time Gate crashers, so…

    A hypothetical need not have any association with a real person's beliefs. Let's say that we were discussing a fetish and I commented that as consenting adults they have the right to do that. Does it tell you anything about my moral opinion on the fetish?
    "If he defends people who do that he must do that," is just as invalid as, "If he does that he'd have just said it's okay."
    (picked a random hypothetical so we don't correlate it with anything in the comic)
    That's a horrible analogy which is not exactly relevant to the discussion, since it has a structure vastly different from that of the one in the comic.

    The thing is, arguing one extreme versus another tells us nothing about where in the spectrum she really aims to land. Especially when it was the paladins, and not Serini, who set up the endpoints of the discussion as polar opposites with no space between them for other alternatives.

    We really have no idea what Serini finds plausible because she was arguing a hypothetical that asked if letting Xykon rule the world was better than the end of the world. She was never asked if Xykon's plan would work, and she offered no opinion on that. And we'd have no way to check her opinion if she offered it.
    Nope. The paladins asked her if she'd have had them just let Xykon win. She basically answers "sure, he just wants to rule the world and he might as well just do that." She never contests the idea that Xykon would get to rule the world, although that would be a far better counter-argument. Structurally the two options have a symmetrical composition. Xykon getting to rule the world corresponds to the paladins destroying the last Gate, which she considers likely.

    As for letting TE be and going after everyone else, I play the BS card. So far, her 1st layer of defense is working. Who kows it won't be enough? And gate defenses are like ogres have layers. It may be months before TE even comes close to progress.
    They work quite fast and (thanks to Serini) mostly unhindered.

    Your assertion that she has done nothing about TE is just as invalid as my assertion that she has a temple full of undead-hating monks on the way if she can hang on for two more days. We do not know, and absence of evidence is eviden... Evidence of absence...
    Proof of evidence is ab...
    You know what I'm saying.
    She made sure to remove players from the field who didn't have any realistic chance of getting anywhere near the Gate. Team Evil works unharassed. These are facts.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Those are the opposite of facts. TE has been there since the dust-up in the dunes, and were nowhere near figuring out the first defense. OotS was there for minutes, and not only got through the first defense, but were about to show Xykon how to do it.

    If the machine ain't broke, don't show the bad guys how to break it.

    In other words, Layer 1 was working. OotS was not helping any more than my four year old neice 'helped' make cookies last Christmas.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    TE has been there since the dust-up in the dunes, and were nowhere near figuring out the first defense. OotS was there for minutes, and not only got through the first defense, but were about to show Xykon how to do it.

    If the machine ain't broke, don't show the bad guys how to break it.
    I'm pretty sure I was among those who were very quick to point out how ill-conceived an idea that ambush plan was, but Serini didn't want to eliminate the Order from the game because of that. The paladins were in no position to really hinder her efforts (no trapfinding, no realistic chance to get far in any of the dungeons) and she still attacked them.

    In other words, Layer 1 was working. OotS was not helping any more than my four year old neice 'helped' make cookies last Christmas.
    So you wanna say the Order was busy being cute and making Serini feel better?

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manga Shoggoth View Post
    Is the only thing that will satisfy you the Giant answering the question? Or one of the characters saying it? If so, asking the question is a bit of a waste of time.
    ???

    The Giant never said that the gate is not actually a gate. There is nothing supports that in-story.

    It's this thread's claim is that the gate is not actually a gate. There is nothing that proves that claim.

    That begs the question why everyone called it a gate if it's not a gate. We're given no answer on that by the person who made the "it's not a gate" claim.

    Three pages of discussion, there is still no answer.

    And now people are discussing about Serini, again, for some reason. What a time to be alive...
    Last edited by Precure; 2021-09-17 at 07:53 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    It's been answered several times.

    The word 'Gate' has many meanings which might be applied to the structures sealing the rifts.

    I responded that modern users of the word have a certain object in mind when they use the word, and it ain't what we see in game.

    I will also admit that the author loves to use words exactly as they are meant to be used while implying more than one meaning.

    So, technically correct useage or not, what we have been calling a gate acts more like a patch or a bandage, in my opinion. It can be ripped off, but not opened and closed. Without the ability to be able to open and close it is useless to Xykon. (Others disagree and point out how it can work,) and in the time it takes one to make a list of demands from the gods they will have unmade the world and left for their hidden refuges.

    I think, based on opinion strongly implied by the comic, that this gate cannot be made to do what the ritual is designed to do. I am prepared to revise this opinion when facts warrant. If Serini believes this as well, (whether correctly or in-,) her acting to remove OotS from her game board is logical. She's not letting TE win, she's letting TE waste time.

    In other words, her plan is working fine, and she does not want three-gate losers underfoot and second-guessing her. They literally blew their chances.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    I think, based on opinion strongly implied by the comic, that this gate cannot be made to do what the ritual is designed to do. I am prepared to revise this opinion when facts warrant. If Serini believes this as well, (whether correctly or in-,) her acting to remove OotS from her game board is logical. She's not letting TE win, she's letting TE waste time.
    That's not implied in the comic, strongly or otherwise. It is implied that Serini doesn't know what the Plan is and it is implied (to say the least) that she believes Xykon getting to rule the world if he captures a Gate is within the realm of possibility. We also know that Dorukan, who certainly knew more about the Gates, viewed nepharious actors using (as opposed to destroying) them as a realistic danger.

    In other words, her plan is working fine, and she does not want three-gate losers underfoot and second-guessing her. They literally blew their chances.
    Again, they only destroyed two Gates (the third was Miko and they would definitely not have done the same if they were in her position) and Team Evil, whom she views as a lesser threat also destroyed one. Also, had she been just a precious little bit less dumb, the world would probably still have four intact Gates. She failed as a guardian, big time, well before the Order's ever set foot in the Dungeon of Dorukan.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-09-17 at 09:25 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    So, technically correct useage or not, what we have been calling a gate acts more like a patch or a bandage, in my opinion. It can be ripped off, but not opened and closed. Without the ability to be able to open and close it is useless to Xykon.
    Redcloak's plan is transfering the gate to some other plane by using the ritual, and then threatening the gods to opening it there. So, it can be opened and there is no reason to believe it can't be closed. It also begs the question what is the difference between opening a gate and destroying it if it's the same thing.

    I think, based on opinion strongly implied by the comic, that this gate cannot be made to do what the ritual is designed to do. I am prepared to revise this opinion when facts warrant. If Serini believes this as well, (whether correctly or in-,) her acting to remove OotS from her game board is logical. She's not letting TE win, she's letting TE waste time.
    Strongly implied where? And even so, you still need to explain why they called it a gate then.
    Last edited by Precure; 2021-09-17 at 09:34 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Why they call it a gate has been answered way back in the thread by multiple posters. But we need only ask, "Why does MitD say, 'What gate?' every time the word is used around an actual gate?"

    Monster-san has been telling us all along that whatever it is, it's not a gate.

    TDOs knowledge of the gates came from the same gods who didn't know about the planet in the rifts. He has a demonstrably flawed idea of what they are. Why can't his plan to exploit them be flawed as well?

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Well the other gods certainly think his plan to move the rift to the outer planes will work, because they're going to destroy the world rather than let him try it.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    With the rifts, Snarl could only escape into the outside world, the plane where humans live. With the gates, Snarl can travel to other planes of existence. Sounds like a gate to me.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    But we need only ask, "Why does MitD say, 'What gate?' every time the word is used around an actual gate?"

    Monster-san has been telling us all along that whatever it is, it's not a gate.
    That appears to be the best anchor for this line of inquiry; all of the semantic gymnastics on definitions are not.
    TDOs knowledge of the gates came from the same gods who didn't know about the planet in the rifts. He has a demonstrably flawed idea of what they are. Why can't his plan to exploit them be flawed as well?
    It can be, particularly as he is not aware that he might not make it through the destruction re-creation cycle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    With the rifts, Snarl could only escape into the outside world, the plane where humans live.
    I am not so sure about that. Each time the Snarl gets out and destroys a world the gods have to imprison it again in another world. Seems to me as though by destroying a world the Snarl removes an obstacle to getting at the gods. The rifts are step 1 in a multi step process that happens before the Snarl gets out yet again as it has done millions of times before (Literally. See the unending pile of monuments to previous worlds that Thor showed to Durkon and Minrah). The original world (after the Green Pantheon was destroyed) was a prison for the Snarl. I have no reason to think that subsequent worlds do not fulfill the same function.
    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    With the gates, Snarl can travel to other planes of existence.
    The gates are a new thing created by a combination of divine and arcane magic. Granted, I do not disagree that they seem to perform quite a bit like a gate spell, but they are not a gate spell. They are a thing that closes an opening in the Snarl's prison, when they work correctly.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-09-17 at 08:36 PM.
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    (paraphrased) Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenstone View Post
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    I have no idea what are you talking about. None of things you just said sounds anyway relevant to things we've discussed here.
    Last edited by Precure; 2021-09-18 at 08:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    Why they call it a gate has been answered way back in the thread by multiple posters. But we need only ask, "Why does MitD say, 'What gate?' every time the word is used around an actual gate?"

    Monster-san has been telling us all along that whatever it is, it's not a gate.
    That's Not exactly what I'd call solid evidence.
    1. MitD is oblivious of a great lot of things. He's not a cosmic power with infinite knowledge and there are way less complicated things he doesn't understand.
    2. The only actual Gate around which he said this line was Dorukan's which did have a wooden gate attached to it (for some reason).

    TDOs knowledge of the gates came from the same gods who didn't know about the planet in the rifts. He has a demonstrably flawed idea of what they are. Why can't his plan to exploit them be flawed as well?
    Wrong. His knowledge of the Snarl and the Rifts comes from the gods. What he knows about the Gates is the result of thorough personal research on his part. He examined them himself and he found "a backdoor" that could be exploited and he developed a Ritual that can do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    That's Not exactly what I'd call solid evidence.
    1. MitD is oblivious of a great lot of things. He's not a cosmic power with infinite knowledge and there are way less complicated things he doesn't understand.
    2. The only actual Gate around which he said this line was Dorukan's which did have a wooden gate attached to it (for some reason).



    Wrong. His knowledge of the Snarl and the Rifts comes from the gods. What he knows about the Gates is the result of thorough personal research on his part. He examined them himself and he found "a backdoor" that could be exploited and he developed a Ritual that can do that.
    I missed the part about TDO conducting his own field study. Is that in spoiler material, or did I read past it long ago?

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