It's Not A Gate

[brian 333]

In several of our recent discussions we have debated aspects of Team Evil's plots involving the last gate. Lately there have been suggestions that Serini's judgement is flawed when she suggested that Xykon being in possession of a gate is preferable to the destruction of the gate.

Only, it's not a gate. A gate can be opened and closed, and there is no indication that once opened, these 'gates' can be closed.

MitD tells us it's not a gate at the very first gate we see, and the Crayons exposition shows what looks like patches as opposed to gates.

This is not a trivial distinction. What it means is that neither Xykon's nor Redcloak's plan will work. No matter how long they play with it, the final result will be that they can threaten to destroy the gate, for whatever mileage they can get from that, or they can destroy the gate and end existence in about ten minutes.

Since it is not a gate it cannot be opened and closed again. That means there can be no examples made of those who defy the gate's controller. Rip off the patch and it's "Game Over, man!" No second chances, and no time to build another patch.

If this is the case, and the comic heavily forshadows this, then Serini knows that TE is wasting its time. And wasting their time appears to be her short term goal.

So long as the good guys don't screw things up, she might waste their time until they turn on each other.

Smart people like complicated things. It makes them feel smart to navigate convoluted plots that lesser folk cannot fathom. Geniuses like things simple. They don't need validation from lesser minds to assure them of their superiority.

If what I have proposed above is anything like Serini's plan, it is elegantly simple.

[Precure]

If it's not a gate, why the people who build it called it a gate?

[Fyraltari]

Xykon's plan is to use the Ritual to enslave the Snarl to his will (the Ritual doesn't actually do that).

Redcloak's plan is to use the Ritual to give the Dark One the ability to move the Gate (and the Rift within) to the plane of his choice at his leisure so he can threaten the other gods with it.

Neither plan requires the Gate to be able to close so I don't see why you think this would matter to them.

[JNAProductions]

I think you're assigning too much significance to the title. I mean, a Google Chromecast might be made by Google, and it does cast things to screens, but it's not made of chrome.
My Pavilion Laptop has nothing really to do with being a summerhouse.
French Fries originated in Belgium, according to Google.
Armor Of Invulnerability, in 5E, does not make the wearer invulnerable to all harm.

Basically, they're referred to as Gates, because that's their title.

[hroþila]

Proto-Germanic *gatą meant "hole, opening", as in Dutch and Icelandic gat. It's an etymological gate, i.e. the best kind of gate.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Proto-Germanic *gatą meant "hole, opening", as in Dutch and Icelandic gat. It's an etymological gate, i.e. the best kind of gate.

Made out of insects?

[hroþila]

Made out of insects?

You're thinking of entomology. Etymology is the study of the causes of vomiting.

[brian 333]

Xykon's plan is to use the Ritual to enslave the Snarl to his will (the Ritual doesn't actually do that).

Redcloak's plan is to use the Ritual to give the Dark One the ability to move the Gate (and the Rift within) to the plane of his choice at his leisure so he can threaten the other gods with it.

Neither plan requires the Gate to be able to close so I don't see why you think this would matter to them.

If it cannot be closed it is useless for either purpose. A threat you can never act upon is a bluff, so what do you do when someone calls your bluff?

Unleashing The Snarl is a bad plan if you want to rule the world because there will be no world to rule. Control of The Snarl requires that it be locked up again after each use.

Similarly, it's a bluff that the gods will certainly call if it's ever used on them. Without the ability to lock it up again, their only course is to salvage what they can and hide untii it's all over. At that point, even if TDO is still around, which will be unlikely given his desire to control The Snarl, why would the gods invite him to help build the next world?

Neither the gates nor The Snarl are the goal of the comic, and as the author said in a bit of accidental foreshadowing so long ago, the McGuffin need not even do what the antagonist believes it will do. Its only importance is that the protagonist will try to prevent its capture.

[JNAProductions]

If it cannot be closed it is useless for either purpose. A threat you can never act upon is a bluff, so what do you do when someone calls your bluff?

Unleashing The Snarl is a bad plan if you want to rule the world because there will be no world to rule. Control of The Snarl requires that it be locked up again after each use.

Similarly, it's a bluff that the gods will certainly call if it's ever used on them. Without the ability to lock it up again, their only course is to salvage what they can and hide untii it's all over. At that point, even if TDO is still around, which will be unlikely given his desire to control The Snarl, why would the gods invite him to help build the next world?

Neither the gates nor The Snarl are the goal of the comic, and as the author said in a bit of accidental foreshadowing so long ago, the McGuffin need not even do what the antagonist believes it will do. Its only importance is that the protagonist will try to prevent its capture.

But what do Xykon and Redcloak know?
What does The Dark One know?

They're likely working with incomplete info. Heck, we're probably working with incomplete info!

[brian 333]

You're thinking of entomology. Etymology is the study of the causes of vomiting.

I thought entomology was the study of anthropomorphic trees.

Huh.

[Fyraltari]

If it cannot be closed it is useless for either purpose. A threat you can never act upon is a bluff, so what do you do when someone calls your bluff?

Unleashing The Snarl is a bad plan if you want to rule the world because there will be no world to rule. Control of The Snarl requires that it be locked up again after each use.

Similarly, it's a bluff that the gods will certainly call if it's ever used on them. Without the ability to lock it up again, their only course is to salvage what they can and hide untii it's all over. At that point, even if TDO is still around, which will be unlikely given his desire to control The Snarl, why would the gods invite him to help build the next world?

Neither the gates nor The Snarl are the goal of the comic, and as the author said in a bit of accidental foreshadowing so long ago, the McGuffin need not even do what the antagonist believes it will do. Its only importance is that the protagonist will try to prevent its capture.

1234567890

So I've been thinking about Thor/Durkon's plan make a truce with Redcloak so they can repair the rifts and keep the Snarl from destroying the world. It's a hard plan, because it requires Redcloak to abandon his Sunk Cost Fallacy, but theory Durkon could offer peace and teritory to the goblinkind and get Redcloak to cooperate in exchange for it, assuming they have turned Xykon into an immobile pile of bones by then.

But I have a problem with this plan: what is stopping Redcloak from having his cake and eating it?

Let's say Durkon just told Redcloak about the plan (RC accepted to listen to him because he's smart enough not to refuse tactical intel). Redcloak can then just shrug, do the ritual to teleport the Snarl, enslave the gods, and then get them to repair the rifts along with him. Now the threat of the Snarl is contained and the Dark One rules everything forever. And the gods can't even destroy the world if they see RC is about to do that, because they have an agreement not to do it unless the Godsmoot decides for it (and the Godsmoot is currently on indefinite hold).

The only way I could see RC accepting Durkon's proposal is if he's already defeated, about to die, and The OOTS offers it as an alternative to dieing and never seeing The Plan come into fruition. But that's way less exciting than the epic diplomacy feat I wanna see Dukon pull off.

Any ideas?

There is some misunderstanding of the mechanics involved here.

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.

[Manga Shoggoth]

You're thinking of entomology. Etymology is the study of the causes of vomiting.

Yup, I am once more committing puns. (I tend to refer to my etymological dictionary as The Book of Insects).

I thought entomology was the study of anthropomorphic trees.

...And that's a really good one!

[brian 333]

But what do Xykon and Redcloak know?
What does The Dark One know?

They're likely working with incomplete info. Heck, we're probably working with incomplete info!

Exactly!
Even Thor and Odin are working with incomplete info. I hope Serini has some new clues for us. And I can't wait to learn Laurin's fate, and whatever news that brings to the table.

[RatElemental]

French Fries originated in Belgium, according to Google.

The "french" in french fries refers to the cutting method used to prepare the potatoes.

Similarly, it's a bluff that the gods will certainly call if it's ever used on them. Without the ability to lock it up again, their only course is to salvage what they can and hide untii it's all over. At that point, even if TDO is still around, which will be unlikely given his desire to control The Snarl, why would the gods invite him to help build the next world?

The gods don't want to call that bluff so much that they'll probably destroy the world just to prevent the ritual from being completed. Teleporting the snarl to their outer planes is pretty much game over for the whole multiverse instead of just the prime material.

[Dewin Dwl]

If it's not a gate, why the people who build it called it a gate?

Maybe MitD has been more perceptive than we thought, all along. ("Gate? What gate?")

[brian 333]

The "french" in french fries refers to the cutting method used to prepare the potatoes.



The gods don't want to call that bluff so much that they'll probably destroy the world just to prevent the ritual from being completed. Teleporting the snarl to their outer planes is pretty much game over for the whole multiverse instead of just the prime material.

Exactly. The threat of Redcloak teleporting the gate will get the world, along with its gate, unraveled. RC's plan cannot succeed. Therefore either Serini does not know RCs plan or is very confident it won't result in anyone able to teleport the gate.

[Sir_Norbert]

Isn't it the obvious working assumption that she does not know his plan? The people who do know are Redcloak, Right-Eye (deceased) and Tsukiko (deceased), and I don't see why Redcloak would share his plans with the enemy.

[Timy]

The "french" in french fries refers to the cutting method used to prepare the potatoes.

Well it seems you have very good historical sources to state that without a trace of doubt because with only a few google queries I found that a lot of sources seems to be sure that we don't really know why they are called "French" in the first place ^^.

And yes, it is a really important question which needs to be addressed even if it means high-jacking a thread !

[Quebbster]

Exactly. The threat of Redcloak teleporting the gate will get the world, along with its gate, unraveled. RC's plan cannot succeed. Therefore either Serini does not know RCs plan or is very confident it won't result in anyone able to teleport the gate.

The Plan takes the fact that the world possibly being destroyed into account. The Dark One seems to be pretty OK with that possibility since that would mean he would be involved in the creation of the next world and get more influence that way. Thor doesn't think it will work out that way, but TDO doesn't seem to be aware of that.
From the protagonist's view, the destruction of the world would mean the end of the story. Whether it accomplishes the goal The Dark One wants or not is rather irrelevant to the story we are reading.

[Metastachydium]

Therefore either Serini does not know RCs plan or is very confident it won't result in anyone able to teleport the gate.

So, what you're saying is that Serini's either clueless or dangerously wrong and that somehow makes her a genius?

[brian 333]

So, what you're saying is that Serini's either clueless or dangerously wrong and that somehow makes her a genius?

No. I am saying her plan works in either case.

When RCs ritual fails he will have a very angry Xykon to deal with. That cuts her problem in half.

[hroþila]

Yup, I am once more committing puns. (I tend to refer to my etymological dictionary as The Book of Insects).

I know, I was trying to keep the joke running but no one caught up on it

[Metastachydium]

No. I am saying her plan works in either case.

Mind you, Serini claims (and we have no reason to disbelieve her because she speaks to bound prisoners whose memories she intends to wipe sooner than later) that she thinks Xykon will get to rule the world if Team Evil captures the Gate. Now, if she believes that Xykon cannot get to control the Snarl as he thinks he can, she also believes that Xykon trying to do so through the Ritual will unleash the Snarl and destroy the world.
In other words, if you're right, Serini's plan is even dumber than it sounds.

When RCs ritual fails he will have a very angry Xykon to deal with. That cuts her problem in half.

1. The Plan depends on the other gods' willingness to comply with Big Purple's demands, but Big Purple and Redcloak know they can't reseal the Rift once it's been opened, and this is factored into the Plan. If the Plan fails, it's not going to fail because of the reason you gave.
2. You shouldn't conflate the Plan with the Ritual. The Ritual is part of the Plan, but the Plan can fail even after the Ritual succeeds. And if the Ritual succeeds, the Gate is shifted out of the Tomb and Serini loses access to it pretty much irrevocably. Once that's done, Redcloak (or even Xykon) dying will not cut her problem in half, because at that point she won't be up against them. She'll be up against a god.
So, again, if you're right, Serini's plan is even dumber than its sounds.

[Fyraltari]

I know, I was trying to keep the joke running but no one caught up on it

I wanted to reply "no that's [correct] name. Etymology is [definition of another word that sounds similar to etymogy]" but I couldn't find what "the study of the causes of vomiting" was actually called.

[Metastachydium]

I couldn't find what "the study of the causes of vomiting" was actually called.

Emetology. It's called emetology.

[skim172]

Setting aside the semantic argument of what defines a gate - I think your general point is that Team Evil's goal is self-defeating because they cannot utilize the "gate/not-gate" without destroying everything, themselves included - so the only thing they can credibly do is make threats that they cannot fulfill.

{Scrubbed}

If Team Evil gains the ability to flip the off switch on the universe, then they can threaten to do so if their demands are not met. They would indeed employ "MAD".

But, it seems you're saying that you don't think Team Evil would indeed end all existence just because they didn't get their way, so their threats don't have any substance. And that's a very good question. Perhaps that is indeed Serini's plan - give them the Gate, and they won't be able to do anything but make threats. {Scrubbed}

I think you could be right about this being Serini's plan.



That said, there are two things that Serini may not know. First, Redcloak's own plan mentions the contingency of using the Snarl to wipe the slate clean in order to give the Dark One a chance to grant goblinkind a better destiny in the next universe. Thus, Redcloak is not opposed to the possibility of total destruction.

Second, Xykon is entirely psychotic enough and nihilistic enough to decide to kill the Universe, just to prove that he can. At one point, being crowned Dark Emperor of the World might've satisfied him, but I'm not so sure he truly cares about anything anymore. As Redcloak has observed, the only thing Xykon seems to care about anymore is death - and killing the universe could satisfy that interest in a way that nothing else could. Additionally, if Xykon discovers that actually, Redcloak's plan won't give him control of the Gate in the way he promised - then he might not be satisfied with getting a retirement package in Gobbotopia.

So I think both parties of Team Evil might very well be willing to open that Gate/Not-Gate and bring about the end. {Scrubbed}

[Metastachydium]

Setting aside the semantic argument of what defines a gate - I think your general point is that Team Evil's goal is self-defeating because they cannot utilize the "gate/not-gate" without destroying everything, themselves included - so the only thing they can credibly do is make threats that they cannot fulfill.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

If Team Evil gains the ability to flip the off switch on the universe, then they can threaten to do so if their demands are not met. They would indeed employ "MAD".

Emphasis mine. What you call Team Evil here is actually the (Church of )the Dark One. Xykon doesn't know he doesn't get to control the Snarl and he doesn't know it it breaks loose if the Gate is "opened", v.

Spoiler: SoD, p. 45

Show

Xykon: "So by warping the Gate, you can take control of the Snarl. Get it to kill who you want, carry your stuff, do your homework, that sort of thing. (…) With a monster like that at your beck and call, you could conquer the whole world. You wouldn't even need to use it that often, just once or twice." [Emphasis mine.]

[brian 333]

When Xykon learns the truth he's going to be one unhappy respawn-point camper.

[Quebbster]

When Xykon learns the truth he's going to be one unhappy respawn-point camper.

Yes, the story is obviously far from done yet. A lot of issues remain that needs to be resolved.

[Metastachydium]

When Xykon learns the truth he's going to be one unhappy respawn-point camper.

So what? If he learns it after the Ritual is complete, he literally doesn't matter anymore. And that's exactly when he'll learn it, unless someone tells him. Were Serini's plans to work out as, you know, planned, the only people other than Redcloak who kinda-sorta know what the Plan is would be surgically removed from the scene, and would probably forget what they knew. So who's gonna tell Xykon? Redcloak? Or Serini who quite evidently doesn't know there's something to tell? And if she had somehow known all along (which really doesn't seem to be the case), why didn't he tell Xykon already? Nah, man. It just doesn't add up.