It's Not A Gate

[Jason]

Setting aside the semantic argument of what defines a gate - I think your general point is that Team Evil's goal is self-defeating because they cannot utilize the "gate/not-gate" without destroying everything, themselves included - so the only thing they can credibly do is make threats that they cannot fulfill.

However, Red Cloak doesn't know that he can't actually fulfill his threat. He believes that the gods will not destroy the world just to save themselves from the Snarl, and that the Dark One will survive any unleashing of the Snarl and continue to oversee goblin kind in the next world created. He believes these things because he does not have the information Thor gave to Durkon, and he refused to believe anything Durkon said because he doesn't trust dwarves (and it would make all the sacrifices he has made to this point meaningless).

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Second, Xykon is entirely psychotic enough and nihilistic enough to decide to kill the Universe, just to prove that he can.

Is he? He has still shown the ability to restrain himself from killing everyone around him when his overall plan, which he thinks will let him rule the world, is in danger.

[skim172]

However, Red Cloak doesn't know that he can't actually fulfill his threat. He believes that the gods will not destroy the world just to save themselves from the Snarl, and that the Dark One will survive any unleashing of the Snarl and continue to oversee goblin kind in the next world created. He believes these things because he does not have the information Thor gave to Durkon, and he refused to believe anything Durkon said because he doesn't trust dwarves (and it would make all the sacrifices he has made to this point meaningless).

Redcloak can fulfill his threat, in that he would be able to unleash the Snarl. His rationale is faulty, because the Dark One won't survive the transition - but that won't stop him from "pushing the button" if he thinks he has no other choice. I personally suspect that just such moment of truth is set to unfold in the future.

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[JNAProductions]

Gonna remind everyone to review the forum rules, with the current subject of conversation being what it is.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: thread re-opened. Let's keep well away from prohibited topics.

[Precure]

If it's not a gate, why the people who build it called it a gate?

I find it very telling that no one gave an answer to this.

[Manga Shoggoth]

I find it very telling that no one gave an answer to this.

Several people have discussed the meaning of the word "gate".

There is another definition of "gate" that you might find interesting in this context: "confine (a pupil or student) to school or college". It might be called a gate because it is gating the Snarl.

Emetology. It's called emetology.

Another for the list!

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe MitD has been more perceptive than we thought, all along. ("Gate? What gate?")

And has been consistent since about strip 0096

From the protagonist's view, the destruction of the world would mean the end of the story.

So would the death of Sir Thumb.

That said, there are two things that Serini may not know. First, Redcloak's own plan mentions the contingency of using the Snarl to wipe the slate clean in order to give the Dark One a chance to grant goblinkind a better destiny in the next universe. Thus, Redcloak is not opposed to the possibility of total destruction.

Second, Xykon is entirely psychotic enough and nihilistic enough to decide to kill the Universe, just to prove that he can. At one point, being crowned Dark Emperor of the World might've satisfied him, but I'm not so sure he truly cares about anything anymore. As Redcloak has observed, the only thing Xykon seems to care about anymore is death - and killing the universe could satisfy that interest in a way that nothing else could. Additionally, if Xykon discovers that actually, Redcloak's plan won't give him control of the Gate in the way he promised - then he might not be satisfied with getting a retirement package in Gobbotopia.

He still has his epic level boredom to deal with.

Yes, the story is obviously far from done yet. A lot of issues remain that needs to be resolved.

Back to the fish swim in water concept.

[Precure]

Several people have discussed the meaning of the word "gate".

It's still not an answer.

[Fyraltari]

It's still not an answer.

Because The Giant hadn't decided what exactly it was that Xykon was sitting on when he named it and now, he's stuck with the name.

[Precure]

Because The Giant hadn't decided what exactly it was that Xykon was sitting on when he named it and now, he's stuck with the name.

This is a Doylist answer though, and still begs the question why the characters he created named it such a way. Not to mention there is nothing in the story that actually proves that it can't be used as a gate.

[Fyraltari]

This is a Doylist answer though, and still begs the question why the characters he created named it such a way. Not to mention there is nothing in the story that actually proves that it can't be used as a gate.

And suddenly I am reminded of a certain vampire.

[Manga Shoggoth]

This is a Doylist answer though, and still begs the question why the characters he created named it such a way. Not to mention there is nothing in the story that actually proves that it can't be used as a gate.

Is the only thing that will satisfy you the Giant answering the question? Or one of the characters saying it? If so, asking the question is a bit of a waste of time

We have discussed the meaning of the word "gate", with at least two reasons why it might apply as a name. You can't say "I find it very telling that no one gave an answer to this" if you then go on and refuse to accept any answer that is offered to you. We've given possible answers, we just don't know what the real one is.

[littlebum2002]

This is brilliant actually. They finally get to the final gate and Redcloak announces his plans and the MitD says "Gate? What gate?" Frustrated, Redcloak loses his temper and shows him the gate and the MitD says "That's not a gate, just like the thing in Durokan's dungeon wasn't a gate. I kept trying to tell you" and it would eclipse Hilga's arc as the longest time between set up and conclusion of an arc.

[Dion]

If it cannot be closed it is useless for either purpose. A threat you can never act upon is a bluff, so what do you do when someone calls your bluff?

Why? You can’t call the bullet back after a gun is fired, but a gun is still a credible threat.

Sure, if you threaten to shoot a person if they don’t what you want, and they call your bluff, and then you shoot them… then they’re still not doing what you want. I guess they technically win.

But they’re also dead.

[TRH]

This thread seems premised on the notion that brinksmanship is a useless strategy because all bluffs get called. I mean, you can read up on the life of John Dillinger if that's what you think.

[Duncun]

Here is another definition.
An opening to allow passage into or out of an enclosed place.

Therefore it is a gate used to control access to the rift that contains the snarl.

[brian 333]

What it is called in universe or on the forum isn't really important. After all, a rose by any other name would still give you hayfever and infected thorn pricks. Or whatever it is Julie was whining about in that play.

My intent was not to correct the name, but to correct what I see as incorrect assumptions about the structures.

Modern users of the word have a specific object in mind when the word is used, and it appears to me that the comic is clear that the gates, once opened, cannot be simply closed. This implies, to me, a patch. A patch, when ripped off, can make the original damage worse. This happened at Soon's Gate and may have happened at Girard's and the others too.

Of course, there were five people who had exact knowledge of what they are and what they can do. One of them is Serini.

Serini seems to believe allowing the gate to fall into Xykon's hands is preferable to letting OotS 'accidentally' or intentionally destroy it. Rather than suppose an error in judgement by one of the five most succesrful adventurers of her generation, I propose that she knows something I (we) do not. While I have opined on what some of those things might be, I have no particular favorite, other than that it won't and can't be made to do what TE wants it to do.

Even Roy agrees that we don't know enough about the gates. Maybe Serini does.

[TRH]

What it is called in universe or on the forum isn't really important. After all, a rose by any other name would give you hayfever and infected thorn pricks. Or whatever it is Julie was whining about in that play.

My intent was not to correct the name, but to correct what I see as incorrect assumptions about the structures.

Modern users of the word have a specific object in mind when the word is used, and it appears to me that the comic is clear that the gates, once opened, cannot be simply closed. This implies, to me, a patch. A patch, when ripped off, can make the original damage worse. This happened at Soon's Gate and may have happened at Girard's and the otherp

It does seem like your interpretation is consistent with what the Giant's said about it. But that doesn't mean the Plan can't work.

[RatElemental]

Wait, that's what your point is? In that case, yeah, you're right that the genie can't go back in the bottle but you're wrong about that being useless. The entirety of the plan is to give the dark one a nuke he can set off so he can use the threat of doing to to obtain his goals.

There's word of giant on this but I can't find it at the moment, maybe Jasdoif can grace us with his presence.

[TRH]

That quote was posted here already.

[brian 333]

Wait, that's what your point is? In that case, yeah, you're right that the genie can't go back in the bottle but you're wrong about that being useless. The entirety of the plan is to give the dark one a nuke he can set off so he can use the threat of doing to to obtain his goals.

There's word of giant on this but I can't find it at the moment, maybe Jasdoif can grace us with his presence.

I thought I said as much in the first post of this thread.

I will have to reread it and see what I missed.

[TRH]

I thought I said as much in the first post of this thread.

I will have to reread it and see what I missed.

You explicitly said that The Plan was worthless as a result of this.

[brian 333]

You explicitly said that The Plan was worthless as a result of this.

And I believe it is.

The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.

You cannot demonstrate it to cow the unimpressed, and you cannot benefit in its aftermath once used.

Dillinger's soap-gun would have been useless in a prior age because it would have looked as harmless as it really was. To be effective it would have to have been something the guard recognized or he would have to have used it to hurt someone.

Both of these things cannot be done in OotS because almost nobody knows about the gates, automatically making any threat of destroying it not a creditable threat, and any demonstration of it would be the last act the demonstrator performs.

"King of Nowhere, submit to me or I shall unleash The Snarl!"

"Oh my gosh! Wait, did he say Kraken? What's a Snarl? Someone show me a Snarl!"

There is an empty threat for you: one that makes you look foolish for uttering it. It's a bluff, and one that will be called more often than not.

[TRH]

And I believe it is.

The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.

You cannot demonstrate it to cow the unimpressed, and you cannot benefit im its aftermath once used.

Dillinger's soap-gun would have been useless in a prior age because it would

Well, one factor to add to your consideration. Both Team Evil and the Dark One have an interest in coming off as less rational than the people they're extorting. A perfectly rational and self-preserving individual's bluff might be comfortably called in such circumstances. But if instead of a smooth and coldly calculating operator you've instead got a self-righteous physical teenager who's already sacrificed everything he loves for this, the Joker with magic or a vengeful god who's already turned on the gods who saved his life from Thor for no reason other than sheer paranoia, then you can't be that cavalier with your own survival against such people.

[JNAProductions]

And I believe it is.

The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.

You cannot demonstrate it to cow the unimpressed, and you cannot benefit in its aftermath once used.

Dillinger's soap-gun would have been useless in a prior age because it would have looked as harmless as it really was. To be effective it would have to have been something the guard recognized or he would have to have used it to hurt someone.

Both of these things cannot be done in OotS because almost nobody knows about the gates, automatically making any threat of destroying it not a creditable threat, and any demonstration of it would be the last act the demonstrator performs.

"King of Nowhere, submit to me or I shall unleash The Snarl!"

"Oh my gosh! Wait, did he say Kraken? What's a Snarl? Someone show me a Snarl!"

There is an empty threat for you: one that makes you look foolish for uttering it. It's a bluff, and one that will be called more often than not.

TDO isn’t threatening the people-he’s threatening the gods. They know about the snarl.

[Hurkyl]

A perfectly rational and self-preserving individual's bluff might be comfortably called in such circumstances.

As an aside, this isn't actually true. The line of thought (I think) you have only works when considering choices on an individual basis. As part of an overarching strategy, you can get better outcomes by being prepared to commit to a "poor" choice to dissuade others from putting you in that position.

As a simple toy example, suppose you and someone else have stumbled across a pile of gold coins. For whatever reason, the other guy gets to decide how the loot is divided between the two of you... but you get to decide whether or not the treasure pile gets dumped into an abyss and cannot be claimed.

If you are a self-serving individual that is "perfectly rational" in that naive sense, and the other guy knows it and is also self-serving, then other guy will take the lion's share and leave a pittance to you, comfortable in the knowledge you will take it because it's better than nothing. It's more rational to be the kind of person that might not make the "better" choice, because that other guy will leave more loot for you.

[TRH]

As an aside, this isn't actually true. The line of thought (I think) you have only works when considering choices on an individual basis. As part of an overarching strategy, you can get better outcomes by being prepared to commit to a "poor" choice to dissuade others from putting you in that position.

As a simple toy example, suppose you and someone else have stumbled across a pile of gold coins. For whatever reason, the other guy gets to decide how the loot is divided between the two of you... but you get to decide whether or not the treasure pile gets dumped into an abyss and cannot be claimed.

If you are a self-serving individual that is "perfectly rational" in that naive sense, and the other guy knows it and is also self-serving, then other guy will take the lion's share and leave a pittance to you, comfortable in the knowledge you will take it because it's better than nothing. It's more rational to be the kind of person that might not make the "better" choice, because that other guy will leave more loot for you.

Point taken, but in any case, my larger point was that there are situations where a bluff is callable, and any that involve dealing with someone you consider a psychopath definitely don't qualify.

[RatElemental]

And I believe it is.

The one-shot nuke that gets the guy who pushes the button has 0 value.

You cannot demonstrate it to cow the unimpressed, and you cannot benefit in its aftermath once used.

Dillinger's soap-gun would have been useless in a prior age because it would have looked as harmless as it really was. To be effective it would have to have been something the guard recognized or he would have to have used it to hurt someone.

Both of these things cannot be done in OotS because almost nobody knows about the gates, automatically making any threat of destroying it not a creditable threat, and any demonstration of it would be the last act the demonstrator performs.

"King of Nowhere, submit to me or I shall unleash The Snarl!"

"Oh my gosh! Wait, did he say Kraken? What's a Snarl? Someone show me a Snarl!"

There is an empty threat for you: one that makes you look foolish for uttering it. It's a bluff, and one that will be called more often than not.

As others have mentioned, the dark one is threatening the gods, who know precisely what the snarl is. Xykon has been fooled to believe the ritual will give him control over the snarl, so he can use it as a minion to take over the world. Xykon's plan won't work of course, but not because it wouldn't work if the ritual actually worked that way.

[brian 333]

TDO isn’t threatening the people-he’s threatening the gods. They know about the snarl.

And they will be the first to call the bluff. They are half ready to end it all even before the threat can be made. If it looks like the ritual can be completed in ten weeks, or days, or hours, they will unmake everything in ten minutes and sneak off to their carefully provisioned winter quarters to wait out The Snarl.

If TDO is still around by then they may ask his help in the new world just to make it stronger against TS, but he may not make it or he may lack the power to do much by then.

So, the plan will not work. It's a hard backfire.

[JNAProductions]

And they will be the first to call the bluff. They are half ready to end it all even before the threat can be made. If it looks like the ritual can be completed in ten weeks, or days, or hours, they will unmake everything in ten minutes and sneak off to their carefully provisioned winter quarters to wait out The Snarl.

If TDO is still around by then they may ask his help in the new world just to make it stronger against TS, but he may not make it or he may lack the power to do much by then.

So, the plan will not work. It's a hard backfire.

Does TDO know this? Or is he operating off incorrect assumptions?