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Thread: It's Not A Gate
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2021-09-14, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
The fact that the gods will not allow the plan to come to fruition does not mean that the plan to use the teleporting rift to threaten them would not work. In fact, I think it's pretty clear evidence that it would work because they're willing to go so far to keep the nuke out of the dark one's grasp in the first place.
But assuming the ritual goes off, calling the dark one's bluff is the exact thing the gods will not do. Blowing up the world before the bluff is even made is not calling it.
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2021-09-14, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
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2021-09-14, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
I believe in this case it's flipping the table over and sending the chips flying, and then waiting until the gremlin that was pinned under the table calms down before trying to pick them up.
And yeah, that's one of the central conflicts in this book so far, trying to convinced Redcloak that his plan is doomed to failure and to try a new tactic.
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2021-09-15, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-15, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
Again,
1. it seems quite clear (based on what she tells two people she has no reason to lie to) that Serini believes the Ritual does what Xykon thinks it does; in that case, she
1.1. either believes that the Ritual works and allows Xykon to unleash and contain the Snarl as he pleases
1.2. or that the Ritual doesn't work and Xykon will destroy the world trying to use it (less likely than 1.1, since Serini states that Xykon will get to rule the world if Team Evil captures the Gate).
2. If she knows what the Ritual does (unlikely), her plan doesn't sound any better:
2.1. supposing she thinks things will work as intended, conceding the Gate to Team Evil will give a nuke to a vengeful god who might fire it off out of spite if his demands aren't met;
2.2. supposing she thinks the Plan is bound to fail and the gods will destroy the world before the Ritual could be completed (even more unlikely, because there's no way she knows about the Godsmoot), through letting Team Evil have the Gate, she knowingly dooms the world.
So, depending on what she knows, she is likely to think that her "brilliant and genial" plan will let a CE creep have control over the Snarl (which might easily lead to the world being devoured) OR she thinks the same creep will accidentally get the world devoured when the Ritual fails to do what it was supposed to do OR she thinks that giving Big Purple a nuke he's not afraid to use is a good idea OR she thinks the gods destroying the world is a preferable outcome.
Her approach, subsequently, only makes sense if she believes that the Plan will succeed which you claim to be impossible.
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2021-09-15, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
I think maybe the most parsimonious explanation is that Serini doesn't know the Plan. The Order of the Scribble has fought a ton of random villains who sought to use the power of the rifts for their own purposes, and Xykon sure seems like yet another of that variety, not least because he thinks he is. Redcloak's actual plan is a pretty well-kept secret (to avoid Xykon killing him, for starters), so the fact that it's the sort of thing that would send the gods to Defcon 1 isn't something that she's aware of.
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2021-09-15, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
Can you explain where you get the idea that Serini believes the gate will do what Xykom thinks it will do?
I have read through the taunting of the paladins, and nowhere does she say or imply this. The closest she comes is in describing a hypothetical outcome in which Xykon wins as preferable to one in which the world ends. She does not say these are the only two possible outcomes. Her only intent was to hammer home the point that the paladins have never even considered any outcome other than, "Don't allow Xykon to have a gate at all costs."
And she does lie to the paladins when she has no reason to do so, just for fun.
And the dichotomy: she must believe everything TE wants can be acomplished, or she's just handing them the nuclear football. There is no middle ground? Just after a lecture from her about the dangers of binary thinking? What if there is another option? I have speculated on some possiblities, as have others.
Serini has been working on this problem longer than any other character in the story has been alive. I'm sure she has thought of at least a third possible outcome.
I think that she believes the worst case is that TE will gain possession of the gate and discover that they can't do anything with it, any more than they could do anything with Dorukons gate. Their choice then is between suicide and bluffing for concessions, and neither of them appears to be suicidal. (Hard to rule the world when you are dead. And there's no world.)
I think she believes that there is a more likely outcome if TE finds the gate. They discover that it can't do what they want it to do, and turn on each other. The problem solves itself.
In fact, frustration over their inability to find the gate may lead to a breakup of TE, so, again, self solving problem.
It's not a black or white problem, as Auntie Serini points out. If you only see black or white answers, you miss a whole rainbow of options. That's what she was telling the paladins.Last edited by brian 333; 2021-09-15 at 12:17 PM.
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2021-09-15, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
One of Serini's stated reasons for taking the paladins and order out is to prevent a conflict that would threaten the gate. If she's banking on an alliance between villains falling through when they find the gate being a safer option...
Well. she's more optimistic than I am about such a situation if so.
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2021-09-15, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
"Xykon is a vicious *******, but he just wants to rule the world – not destroy it. And the world is a big, big place. It'll survive a few years of a villain calling the shots"
It's indeed not implied. She explicitly says that Xykon will get to rule the world for years if Team Evil wins. Controlling the Gate alone wouldn't let him to that.
And she does lie to the paladins when she has no reason to do so, just for fun.
I'm sure she has thought of at least a third possible outcome.
I think that she believes the worst case is that TE will gain possession of the gate and discover that they can't do anything with it, any more than they could do anything with Dorukons gate.
Their choice then is between suicide and bluffing for concessions, and neither of them appears to be suicidal. (Hard to rule the world when you are dead. And there's no world.)
I think she believes that there is a more likely outcome if TE finds the gate. They discover that it can't do what they want it to do, and turn on each other. The problem solves itself.
If, in turn, you mean that the Ritual doesn't work, period, well, that is a baseless speculation on your part that I see no reason to address beyond pointing out that it was devised by a god and the other gods are willing to believe that it works as intended, while Serini… She's a funny little halfling who thinks she's very clever.
In fact, frustration over their inability to find the gate may lead to a breakup of TE, so, again, self solving problem.
It's not a black or white problem, as Auntie Serini points out. If you only see black or white answers, you miss a whole rainbow of options. That's what she was telling the paladins.
(And one more thing: if you think the solution is going to be "Team Evil was never a real threat because <insert the Gate is not a gate nonsense here>", I'm pretty confident you are up for copious amounts of disappointment.)Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-09-15 at 02:28 PM. Reason: Â.
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2021-09-15, 03:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
She says no such thing explicitly. What she does say is that Xykon's goal isn't so bad, in the context of contrasting it against the Paladin's desperation to deny bad guys a victory.
Anything you think this says about a connection between securing the gate and actually achieving his goal is you making inferences based on what she doesn't say. While plausible, I don't think it a particularly likely reading. Doubly so if you consider the general flow of the conversation of Serini knocking down point by point the paladins' fundamental way of thinking about the situation.
If Serini counts on that, she must be desperate.
a whole range of possible outcomesLast edited by Hurkyl; 2021-09-15 at 03:58 PM.
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2021-09-15, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-09-15, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
The forums have talked a lot about what Serini thinks the ritual will do... but do we have any reason at all to think that Serini has any idea there's a ritual? Or that Team Evil has a plan for using the gate? Or even that Team Evil is even capable of doing something with them?
Actually, we know that Serini knows that the gates imprison the snarl, but does she even know anything beyond that? The mere fact of being on the Order of the Scribble is something, but doesn't imply all that much.
Anyways,
Yes. In fact, I find it even more likely that's what Serini thinks than what you previously claimed she was saying.Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-09-15 at 05:28 PM.
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2021-09-15, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
I believe she was arguing a hypothetical.
Question: is the destruction of any gate a superior outcome to letting Xykon control it?
Serini's Answer: No. Endangering the stability of existence to prevent a short-term problem like Xykon becoming King of Everywhere is not a fair trade.
Reasons given include, but are not limited to:
Xykon might kill millions, the end of existence kills everyone.
Xykon wilk enslave millions, they and their children will still exist on liberation day.
Xykon will destroy the dignity of the good people, there are many who are just as deserving of that dignity who may have a better chance of getting it under Xykon's rule.
Nowhere in the hypothetical argument does she say, "This is my goal." She only says, "Of the two alternatives you paladins present, enslavement under Xykon is superior to the end of the world."
So far, Serini has not said a single word about what her goal might be or how she plans to achieve it. I have speculated, not to say, "I know her plan," but to offer plausible options.
Your mileage may vary on how plausible my options are.
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2021-09-16, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
That's one fair point, you see. That said, she does know that Xykon wants to rule rather than destroy the world (as the Order and even the Guard (v. Miko) previously believed), so she's certainly not completely ignorant of what the "official" version of Team Evil's plans is. What she doesn't seem to know is that the main roster of Team Evil essentially belongs to three rival teams with opposing goals.
Actually, we know that Serini knows that the gates imprison the snarl, but does she even know anything beyond that? The mere fact of being on the Order of the Scribble is something, but doesn't imply all that much.
Anyways,
Yes. In fact, I find it even more likely that's what Serini thinks than what you previously claimed she was saying.
This hypothetical does assume that Xykon can achieve world domination which Serini couldn't find even remotely plausible were she to believe that controlling the Snarl is impossible.
Nowhere in the hypothetical argument does she say, "This is my goal." She only says, "Of the two alternatives you paladins present, enslavement under Xykon is superior to the end of the world."
So far, Serini has not said a single word about what her goal might be or how she plans to achieve it. I have speculated, not to say, "I know her plan," but to offer plausible options.DuneStickworld. But we do know that her current plan involves letting Team Evil be and hunting down everyone who disagrees with this course of action.
Also, I don't find your options particularly plausible. What you outlined in the OP for instance assumes that
1. Serini somehow knows more about the Gates than freakin' Dorukan (v. my response to Hurkyl above) and
2. Team Evil was never actually a real threat.
Your mileage may vary on how plausible my options are.
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2021-09-16, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-09-16, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
I am not offended. I am enjoying the challenge. Facing ideas and opinions that are not my own is how I learn.
Serini may know more than the gods about the gates. They are not all-knowing. Whether she does or not, I think she knows more about her gate than anyone, gods included.
As for whether she is smarter than Dorukon, the real question is, are the gates the same? Soon's gate was destroyed with a katana. Months of goblins attacking Dorukon's gate resulted in dead goblins. Perhaps she knows something we do not.
The multidimensional stone mentioned in the flashback comes to mind. We do not know its properties. I bet she does. She may know it can't be teleported, making the ritual useless on this one gate.
Or she may not know anything about the ritual and wrongly believes that she's covered all the possible ways it could be exploited.
Either way, in her apparent opinion, she doesn't need three-time gate crashers ruining her years of preparation.
Next
A hypothetical need not have any association with a real person's beliefs. Let's say that we were discussing a fetish and I commented that as consenting adults they have the right to do that. Does it tell you anything about my moral opinion on the fetish?
"If he defends people who do that he must do that," is just as invalid as, "If he does that he'd have just said it's okay."
(picked a random hypothetical so we don't correlate it with anything in the comic)
The thing is, arguing one extreme versus another tells us nothing about where in the spectrum she really aims to land. Especially when it was the paladins, and not Serini, who set up the endpoints of the discussion as polar opposites with no space between them for other alternatives.
We really have no idea what Serini finds plausible because she was arguing a hypothetical that asked if letting Xykon rule the world was better than the end of the world. She was never asked if Xykon's plan would work, and she offered no opinion on that. And we'd have no way to check her opinion if she offered it.
As for letting TE be and going after everyone else, I play the BS card. So far, her 1st layer of defense is working. Who kows it won't be enough? And gate defensesare like ogreshave layers. It may be months before TE even comes close to progress.
Your assertion that she has done nothing about TE is just as invalid as my assertion that she has a temple full of undead-hating monks on the way if she can hang on for two more days. We do not know, and absence of evidence is eviden... Evidence of absence...
Proof of evidence is ab...
You know what I'm saying.
Serini has confidence in her plan. We know this from her attempt to remove unwanted disruption from outsiders.
Whether her confidence is merited or not is another issue, and one that has too many unanswered variables to compute.
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2021-09-16, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
It wasn't the Gate that killed the goblins. It was the sigil placed on the Gate, and like I said, they only failed to bypass it beacuse of a bout of
early installment weirdnessphenomenal bad luck.
The multidimensional stone mentioned in the flashback comes to mind. We do not know its properties. I bet she does. She may know it can't be teleported, making the ritual useless on this one gate.
Or she may not know anything about the ritual and wrongly believes that she's covered all the possible ways it could be exploited.
Either way, in her apparent opinion, she doesn't need three-time gate crashers ruining her years of preparation.
A hypothetical need not have any association with a real person's beliefs. Let's say that we were discussing a fetish and I commented that as consenting adults they have the right to do that. Does it tell you anything about my moral opinion on the fetish?
"If he defends people who do that he must do that," is just as invalid as, "If he does that he'd have just said it's okay."
(picked a random hypothetical so we don't correlate it with anything in the comic)
The thing is, arguing one extreme versus another tells us nothing about where in the spectrum she really aims to land. Especially when it was the paladins, and not Serini, who set up the endpoints of the discussion as polar opposites with no space between them for other alternatives.
We really have no idea what Serini finds plausible because she was arguing a hypothetical that asked if letting Xykon rule the world was better than the end of the world. She was never asked if Xykon's plan would work, and she offered no opinion on that. And we'd have no way to check her opinion if she offered it.
As for letting TE be and going after everyone else, I play the BS card. So far, her 1st layer of defense is working. Who kows it won't be enough? And gate defensesare like ogreshave layers. It may be months before TE even comes close to progress.
Your assertion that she has done nothing about TE is just as invalid as my assertion that she has a temple full of undead-hating monks on the way if she can hang on for two more days. We do not know, and absence of evidence is eviden... Evidence of absence...
Proof of evidence is ab...
You know what I'm saying.
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2021-09-16, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
Those are the opposite of facts. TE has been there since the dust-up in the dunes, and were nowhere near figuring out the first defense. OotS was there for minutes, and not only got through the first defense, but were about to show Xykon how to do it.
If the machine ain't broke, don't show the bad guys how to break it.
In other words, Layer 1 was working. OotS was not helping any more than my four year old neice 'helped' make cookies last Christmas.
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2021-09-17, 05:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
I'm pretty sure I was among those who were very quick to point out how ill-conceived an idea that ambush plan was, but Serini didn't want to eliminate the Order from the game because of that. The paladins were in no position to really hinder her efforts (no trapfinding, no realistic chance to get far in any of the dungeons) and she still attacked them.
In other words, Layer 1 was working. OotS was not helping any more than my four year old neice 'helped' make cookies last Christmas.
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2021-09-17, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
???
The Giant never said that the gate is not actually a gate. There is nothing supports that in-story.
It's this thread's claim is that the gate is not actually a gate. There is nothing that proves that claim.
That begs the question why everyone called it a gate if it's not a gate. We're given no answer on that by the person who made the "it's not a gate" claim.
Three pages of discussion, there is still no answer.
And now people are discussing about Serini, again, for some reason. What a time to be alive...Last edited by Precure; 2021-09-17 at 07:53 AM.
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2021-09-17, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
It's been answered several times.
The word 'Gate' has many meanings which might be applied to the structures sealing the rifts.
I responded that modern users of the word have a certain object in mind when they use the word, and it ain't what we see in game.
I will also admit that the author loves to use words exactly as they are meant to be used while implying more than one meaning.
So, technically correct useage or not, what we have been calling a gate acts more like a patch or a bandage, in my opinion. It can be ripped off, but not opened and closed. Without the ability to be able to open and close it is useless to Xykon. (Others disagree and point out how it can work,) and in the time it takes one to make a list of demands from the gods they will have unmade the world and left for their hidden refuges.
I think, based on opinion strongly implied by the comic, that this gate cannot be made to do what the ritual is designed to do. I am prepared to revise this opinion when facts warrant. If Serini believes this as well, (whether correctly or in-,) her acting to remove OotS from her game board is logical. She's not letting TE win, she's letting TE waste time.
In other words, her plan is working fine, and she does not want three-gate losers underfoot and second-guessing her. They literally blew their chances.
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2021-09-17, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
That's not implied in the comic, strongly or otherwise. It is implied that Serini doesn't know what the Plan is and it is implied (to say the least) that she believes Xykon getting to rule the world if he captures a Gate is within the realm of possibility. We also know that Dorukan, who certainly knew more about the Gates, viewed nepharious actors using (as opposed to destroying) them as a realistic danger.
In other words, her plan is working fine, and she does not want three-gate losers underfoot and second-guessing her. They literally blew their chances.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-09-17 at 09:25 AM.
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2021-09-17, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
Redcloak's plan is transfering the gate to some other plane by using the ritual, and then threatening the gods to opening it there. So, it can be opened and there is no reason to believe it can't be closed. It also begs the question what is the difference between opening a gate and destroying it if it's the same thing.
I think, based on opinion strongly implied by the comic, that this gate cannot be made to do what the ritual is designed to do. I am prepared to revise this opinion when facts warrant. If Serini believes this as well, (whether correctly or in-,) her acting to remove OotS from her game board is logical. She's not letting TE win, she's letting TE waste time.Last edited by Precure; 2021-09-17 at 09:34 AM.
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2021-09-17, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
Why they call it a gate has been answered way back in the thread by multiple posters. But we need only ask, "Why does MitD say, 'What gate?' every time the word is used around an actual gate?"
Monster-san has been telling us all along that whatever it is, it's not a gate.
TDOs knowledge of the gates came from the same gods who didn't know about the planet in the rifts. He has a demonstrably flawed idea of what they are. Why can't his plan to exploit them be flawed as well?
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2021-09-17, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
Well the other gods certainly think his plan to move the rift to the outer planes will work, because they're going to destroy the world rather than let him try it.
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2021-09-17, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
With the rifts, Snarl could only escape into the outside world, the plane where humans live. With the gates, Snarl can travel to other planes of existence. Sounds like a gate to me.
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2021-09-17, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
That appears to be the best anchor for this line of inquiry; all of the semantic gymnastics on definitions are not.
TDOs knowledge of the gates came from the same gods who didn't know about the planet in the rifts. He has a demonstrably flawed idea of what they are. Why can't his plan to exploit them be flawed as well?
I am not so sure about that. Each time the Snarl gets out and destroys a world the gods have to imprison it again in another world. Seems to me as though by destroying a world the Snarl removes an obstacle to getting at the gods. The rifts are step 1 in a multi step process that happens before the Snarl gets out yet again as it has done millions of times before (Literally. See the unending pile of monuments to previous worlds that Thor showed to Durkon and Minrah). The original world (after the Green Pantheon was destroyed) was a prison for the Snarl. I have no reason to think that subsequent worlds do not fulfill the same function.
The gates are a new thing created by a combination of divine and arcane magic. Granted, I do not disagree that they seem to perform quite a bit like a gate spell, but they are not a gate spell. They are a thing that closes an opening in the Snarl's prison, when they work correctly.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-09-17 at 08:36 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-09-18, 08:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
I have no idea what are you talking about. None of things you just said sounds anyway relevant to things we've discussed here.
Last edited by Precure; 2021-09-18 at 08:04 AM.
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2021-09-18, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: It's Not A Gate
That's… Not exactly what I'd call solid evidence.
1. MitD is oblivious of a great lot of things. He's not a cosmic power with infinite knowledge and there are way less complicated things he doesn't understand.
2. The only actual Gate around which he said this line was Dorukan's which did have a wooden gate attached to it (for some reason).
TDOs knowledge of the gates came from the same gods who didn't know about the planet in the rifts. He has a demonstrably flawed idea of what they are. Why can't his plan to exploit them be flawed as well?
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2021-09-18, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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