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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    <Insert awkward phase to change of topic here>

    One of the big things about space that often is not emphasized enough in the space adventure genre is that.... space is deadly to human life.

    Imagine living with only 6 inches of steel plate (or less) separating you from untimely and unpleasant death. You are constantly dependent on machines to do what they are supposed to be doing flawlessly, 100% of the time; when you know they do not work that way. Seems stressful.

    Getting to most planets is not much better either.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    Imagine living with only 6 inches of steel plate (or less) separating you from untimely and unpleasant death. You are constantly dependent on machines to do what they are supposed to be doing flawlessly, 100% of the time; when you know they do not work that way. Seems stressful.
    It probably is. At first. But humans can get used to almost any situation.

    It's not that different from being on an airplane, really. If the complex machine around you stops working, you're likely to die. But aside from some people with extreme fear of flying, most people don't really think about it after a while.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    It probably is. At first. But humans can get used to almost any situation.

    It's not that different from being on an airplane, really. If the complex machine around you stops working, you're likely to die. But aside from some people with extreme fear of flying, most people don't really think about it after a while.
    Sure, but you don't live for months or a lifetime on a plane.

    Perhaps the experience of Submariners is a better example.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    Sure, but you don't live for months or a lifetime on a plane.

    Perhaps the experience of Submariners is a better example.
    Sure, but I suspect the issue of spending months in space isn't really stress or fear but rather discomfort. Submarines are probably a good source of inspiration, I'm guessing people on those spend less time thinking "Oh god, I'll die if we spring a leak" and more "Everything is so damn cramped".

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Sure, but I suspect the issue of spending months in space isn't really stress or fear but rather discomfort. Submarines are probably a good source of inspiration, I'm guessing people on those spend less time thinking "Oh god, I'll die if we spring a leak" and more "Everything is so damn cramped".
    Yeah!

    I know a few Submariners, so I will ask and report back.
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  6. - Top - End - #186
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Sure, but I suspect the issue of spending months in space isn't really stress or fear but rather discomfort. Submarines are probably a good source of inspiration, I'm guessing people on those spend less time thinking "Oh god, I'll die if we spring a leak" and more "Everything is so damn cramped".
    Probably the reverse for Russian subs given their track record.

    Cramped you eventually grow used to, the same as the smell. It’s the things that you can immediately blame someone about, things that can be controlled, like that idiot who keeps stomping by when you’re trying to sleep, that doofus who broke the ice cream machine that you now have to fix, or whoever put you on night watch when there was a daytime swim scheduled.

    The main thing it could inform is what the spacers indulge in when given the chance, seeing how they can’t address XYZ in space. (Bath and fresh clothes!)
    Martials’ concepts don’t evolve past the mundane
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Yora's Avatar

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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    I think when we move from Hard Sci-Fi to more Space Opera, where a group of scruffy PCs can afford their own space ship to travelmto other systems, launch costs from surface to orbit become nearly trivial. And you also often have big space ships that can't land on planets and therefore have to be made in space.
    In those circumstances, open space inside ships would be expected to be really cheap. The only thing that is important for speed and fuel economy is mass, and additional empty space comes with little additional mass.Space ship hulls are much simpler and lighter than submarine hulls. Bicycle tires are under pressure differences several times higher than a space ship. (Things change of course when you want the hull armored, but after the space for engines and cargo, increasing the crew space still increases wall and floor material only marginally.)
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

    Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
    Hyperspace Opera Swashbuckling and Gunslinging Space Adventures

  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    A D&D party doesn't need to be cookie cutter - most any party can have fun trying to find inventive ways to handle problems.

    But - and maybe it's my inexperience - I don't see valid characters likely having fun on arbitrary space missions. And certainly "random valid characters" struggle to run a ship by themselves.
    Once again, this is the GM's job to solve.

    First, you find out if the players want space battles at all.
    Second, you find out which players want to do stuff during those battles.
    Third, based on their characters, you give those players options as far as what that stuff might be.
    Fourth and final, you design the encounters so that those options come into play.

    And if you ever end up with a situation where not everyone wants to be involved, or where certain roles don't have a good character archetype (e.g. ship full of soldiers, no medic or scientist) - that's when you get creative. Stick an AI or hologram on the ship to cover that role while the PCs live out their space jockey or jarhead fantasies. Or if the ship has no guns and no gunners, problems in space become puzzles instead of combat encounters. In short, make something up and roleplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Easy e View Post
    <Insert awkward phase to change of topic here>

    One of the big things about space that often is not emphasized enough in the space adventure genre is that.... space is deadly to human life.

    Imagine living with only 6 inches of steel plate (or less) separating you from untimely and unpleasant death. You are constantly dependent on machines to do what they are supposed to be doing flawlessly, 100% of the time; when you know they do not work that way. Seems stressful.

    Getting to most planets is not much better either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    It probably is. At first. But humans can get used to almost any situation.

    It's not that different from being on an airplane, really. If the complex machine around you stops working, you're likely to die. But aside from some people with extreme fear of flying, most people don't really think about it after a while.
    You can handwave this pretty easily. The computer/medic does regular psych evals, or the sleeping pods pipe in Sylurian Moon Jazz which keeps any phobias from developing, or space travel has just become the norm long enough that people don't really notice or care about this stuff. Most spacefaring settings have entire generations, from infancy upward, who spent their entire lives on ships and stations even.

    Or you can lean into the unease for a space horror campaign, those are always fun.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2021-09-30 at 06:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  9. - Top - End - #189
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    In those circumstances, open space inside ships would be expected to be really cheap. The only thing that is important for speed and fuel economy is mass, and additional empty space comes with little additional mass.Space ship hulls are much simpler and lighter than submarine hulls. Bicycle tires are under pressure differences several times higher than a space ship. (Things change of course when you want the hull armored, but after the space for engines and cargo, increasing the crew space still increases wall and floor material only marginally.)
    Heat matters too. The vacuum of space is a vacuum, which means you can only lose heat through radiation. Which means gigantic, and vulnerable, and maintenance intensive, heat radiators all over the place. This creates a very strong incentive to keep as much of the ship as possible at as cold an ambient temperature as you can in order to minimize this issue.

    As an addendum, this gives a species that runs at a low core temperature with a low metabolic rate (or can naturally enter a torpid state) a significant advantage in long-term space operations.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Yora's Avatar

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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    I think engine heat makes the body heat of the crew negligible.
    We are not standing on the shoulders of giants, but on very tall tower of other dwarves.

    Spriggan's Den Heroic Fantasy Roleplaying
    Hyperspace Opera Swashbuckling and Gunslinging Space Adventures

  11. - Top - End - #191
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    Also, heat considerations may not be an aspect that your setting cares about. As I understood Yora this is about "softer" Space Opera. More Bab5, less Expanse.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    I think engine heat makes the body heat of the crew negligible.
    That depends on how the ship is set up and the engine type. You can set up a puller type Bussard ramjet engine on a long cable that has basically no heat transference to the ship. You could put a nuclear lightbulb at the end of a long scaffold with an insulating shadow shield, run it until it melts down and dump it (not a good idea but possible).

    In any case, you really want to separate the engines from the crew spaces for lots of reasons, not the least of which is accidentally cooking the crew with engine waste heat. Unless you're using TV/movie style handwavium engines.
    "And this, too, shall pass away."

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  13. - Top - End - #193
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    The body heat of the crew is probably negligible, but there are plenty of other heat sources. Essentially everything that the ship does: operate electronics, maintain life support, and fire weapons generates heat. Powerful energy weapons, in particular, have the potential to melt your own ship if you don't have a good way to dump the waste heat they generate (no weapon is 100% efficient).

    Obviously you're probably going to handwave heat to some degree, but it's still an element you can use. For example, firing a ship's weapons may make it impossible to stealth the vessel (since you're allowing stealth in space) until it cools back down again. Or the extreme heat of certain types of energy weapons may make it impossible to mount them on vessels below a certain size minimum (since bigger ships can handle a greater heat load). Or if you have shields, heat accumulation can be a reason why shields experience progressive failure, since the massive power loading of keeping the shields up threatens to melt the ship.
    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  14. - Top - End - #194
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: What changes in Space Adventures?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Or if the ship has no guns and no gunners, problems in space become puzzles instead of combat encounters. In short, make something up and roleplay.
    I was honestly about to ask, "what if you've got no guns, but the GM included lots of very Combat geared encounters. Like… Reavers."

    So… obviously it *can* work. Just doesn't feel kosherized.

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