Magic schools

[clash]

So d&d has its 8 schools of magic but I'm not entirely satisfied with the groupings. What magic schools would you use and or what have you seen used by other systems?

[Anonymouswizard]

Epideromancy, Bibliomancy, Cliomancy, Mechanomancy, Urbanomancy, Narco-Alchemy, Pornomancy, Dipsomancy, Videomancy, Personamancy, Infomancy, Thanatomancy, Cryptomancy, Cameraturgy, Cinemancy, Vestamancy...

And that's just the ones I can remember without checking the books! Although Unknown Armies treats Adept schools very differently to D&D, they're 14 spells, a random magick domain, charging criteria, and a taboo.

Other than that the things that spring to mind include the Spheres from Mage or the Arcana from Sigil & Shadow. Oh, and the schools from Anima: Beyond Fantasy, but most of them are asking elemental lines.

Honestly most games I own are more interested in separating magic via tradition rather than broad category of affect. Which might be anywhere from a grab bag of effects to broad Thebes that encompass such things as 'life and death' or 'alchemy'.

[MoiMagnus]

So d&d has its 8 schools of magic but I'm not entirely satisfied with the groupings. What magic schools would you use and or what have you seen used by other systems?

In an homebrew game, we have:

Pyromancy
=> Manipulating "positive" energies (except life)

So fire, lightning, sound, light (including most illusions), and raw force (telekinesis, flight)

Nihimancy
=> Opposite of Pyromancy, so manipulating "negative" energies (except death).

So cold, invisibility, silence, and raw "antiforce" (so abjuration magic)

Animancy
=> Manipulating souls (including life/death energies) and more generally the immaterial world.

So healing, necromancy, a lot of divination (detecting life forms, interacting with the souls, etc) and mind-alteration.

Lithomancy
=> Manipulating matter and more generally the material world.

So mostly transmutation. But a lot of evocation spells too (earthquake, etc).

Note:
A lot of "divine" spells are not affiliated to any school, and instead affiliated to a specific god(s). This is why Animancy is so wide in its definition, a lot of what would belongs here is instead classified as exclusively divine magic.

[Deepbluediver]

I've had this same discussion before, here was my thread about it, if you want to read any of the replies: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ell-subschools

Basically I cut the 8+1 schools down to 7, with the groupings being a combination of thematic and mechanical.

Abjuration: defined as the school most concerned with the basic components of magic, most Force effects go here, along with any spell that affects another spell (i.e. Dispell, etc)

Conjuration: I'd scrap anything energy-related from this school, along with a lot of the "material creation" spells, like manufacturing permanent walls of iron or whatever; some of the tweaks would be more spell-specific though

Diviniation/Illusion: ok, so both trickster-heroes and prophecy have a long, LONG history in storytelling, but they can be harder to bring across well mechanically, so I combined them into one school called "Insight", dealing with information & misinformation as well as light and sound (Radiant and Sonic) and also cut out a lot of the chaff

Enchantment: anything and everything mind-manipulating, even for creatures that don't have a brain in the typical sense, like undead; this is honestly it's own entire discussion if you want me to go dig that thread up too

Evocation: all the elemental-blasty spells go here, which includes your standard ice/fire/electric but also acid and things like Summon Orb of [whatever] that were previously in conjuration

Necromancy: cut out the "evil" spells actually just belong somewhere else (like Cause Fear), and make this school all the undead as well as positive and negative energy, i.e. shift the healing spells here

Transmutation: fewest changes overall, except for a fell spells that I think belong elsewhere like Disintegrate, and also any of the time-related stuff (Haste, Time Stop, Slow, possibly Gentle Repose, etc) end up here



I gotta run now, but if you have questions about where I'd place any specific spell, just let me know.

[GalacticAxekick]

The only school I would get rid of is Abjuration. The only school I would add is Chronomancy. Everything else is pretty great.

Divination reveals information.
Illusion conceals information.

Enchantment reshapes minds.
Transmutation reshapes matter.

Chronomancy moves things across time.
Conjuration moves things across space.

Evocation creates and destroys energy.
Necromancy manipulates the soul.

This school system should encompass every spell you could possibly think of, and theres no overlap at all between the schools.

An Abjuration spell like Mage Armour or Shield, for example, would fit neatly into my definition of Evocation (because you are sapping the energy from an incoming blow or deflecting it with magical force).

An Abjuration spell like Banishment would fit nearly into Conjuration. Alarm would be Divination. Arcane Lock would be Transmutation. Etc

[GalacticAxekick]

Abjuration: defined as the school most concerned with the basic components of magic, most Force effects go here, along with any spell that affects another spell (i.e. Dispell, etc)

Because Force is not a "basic component of magic", but rather the most basic form of energy, I would move all the Force effects to Evocation, including effects that absorb or counteract physical force, such as Mage Armour and Shield.

Most Abjuration spells, in my opinion, belong to different schools. For example, Alarm (Divination), Arcane Lock (Transmutation), Banishment (Conjuration), Sanctuary (Enchantment) and Nondetection (Illusion)

The only Abjuration spells that belong together are those that manipulate magic itself (Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, etc).

Conjuration: I'd scrap anything energy-related from this school, along with a lot of the "material creation" spells, like manufacturing permanent walls of iron or whatever; some of the tweaks would be more spell-specific though

I too would move the energy-creation stuff to Evocation. But I think the material creation spells are fit to stay.

Diviniation/Illusion: ok, so both trickster-heroes and prophecy have a long, LONG history in storytelling, but they can be harder to bring across well mechanically, so I combined them into one school called "Insight", dealing with information & misinformation as well as light and sound (Radiant and Sonic) and also cut out a lot of the chaff

This is the grouping I have the most contention with. Grouping divination and illusion is strange to me, because they do exactly the opposite things (reveal information and conceal information). But at least these are both dealing with information.

My bigger contention is with the inclusion of Radiant and Sonic effects. The whole point of illusions is that they are not real. The lights and sounds were never there! They are completely in your head! An illusory light should not be able to tan your skin, dry your laundry or sear your flesh. An illusory sound should not be able rattle the floor, shatter glass, or break your eardrums. If these illusions do effect you, the damage must be purely psychic.

Enchantment: anything and everything mind-manipulating, even for creatures that don't have a brain in the typical sense, like undead; this is honestly it's own entire discussion if you want me to go dig that thread up too

I totally agree!

Evocation: all the elemental-blasty spells go here, which includes your standard ice/fire/electric but also acid and things like Summon Orb of [whatever] that were previously in conjuration

I do not understand why acid spells should be moved over from conjuration to evocation. Acid is a substance, and you're conjuring it.

Evocation is for heat and cold, light and dark, sound and silence, lightning, and physical force.

Necromancy: cut out the "evil" spells actually just belong somewhere else (like Cause Fear), and make this school all the undead as well as positive and negative energy, i.e. shift the healing spells here

I totally agree!

Transmutation: fewest changes overall, except for a fell spells that I think belong elsewhere like Disintegrate, and also any of the time-related stuff (Haste, Time Stop, Slow, possibly Gentle Repose, etc) end up here

I think the time-related stuff should have its own school, but with so few spells of their type, I understand why they were grouped in Transmutation.

[Deepbluediver]

Because Force is not a "basic component of magic", but rather the most basic form of energy, I would move all the Force effects to Evocation, including effects that absorb or counteract physical force, such as Mage Armour and Shield.

Most Abjuration spells, in my opinion, belong to different schools. For example, Alarm (Divination), Arcane Lock (Transmutation), Banishment (Conjuration), Sanctuary (Enchantment) and Nondetection (Illusion)

The only Abjuration spells that belong together are those that manipulate magic itself (Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, etc).

One of the issues is that if you try to define schools all by the same criteria, you are likely to end up with some schools that are HUGE and others that are tiny. That's why I said up front that the classifications where a mix of thematic and mechanical, to keep each school on relatively even footing for it's appeal and variety.
I also wanted to get rid of untyped-damage, and Force was the least-flavorful thing that was left. So in order to flesh out abjuration a bit while keeping some of it's classic theme, I decided to dump all the Force-effects into this school. That includes defensive spells like Wall of Force or Mage Armor, and also the small handlful of damaging Force-based spells like Magic Missile and Disintegrate. Sure you COULD justify putting them in several other schools probably, and that's one of the issues with the RAW classifications. More on that later though.

I too would move the energy-creation stuff to Evocation. But I think the material creation spells are fit to stay.

Yeah, I'm not saying to get rid of the physical-material summoning spells, just to change them somewhat. For example, rather than creating a PERMANENT wall of iron that never disappears, whatever you create is only temporary, just like the limited duration of other spells.

This is the grouping I have the most contention with. Grouping divination and illusion is strange to me, because they do exactly the opposite things (reveal information and conceal information). But at least these are both dealing with information.

Yeah that's basically where I was going with it. This is one of those thematic-not-mechanical decisions; but Insight ended up being a mix of both anyway because of this next bit...

My bigger contention is with the inclusion of Radiant and Sonic effects. The whole point of illusions is that they are not real. The lights and sounds were never there! They are completely in your head! An illusory light should not be able to tan your skin, dry your laundry or sear your flesh. An illusory sound should not be able rattle the floor, shatter glass, or break your eardrums. If these illusions do effect you, the damage must be purely psychic.

Yes I mostly agree- that's what I was talking about when I mentioned cutting "out the chaff"; stuff like Shadow Evocation isn't an illusion at all, it just a regular evocation spell that trades power for versatility. Dito for anything that summons "shadow creatures", etc. Especially when they have the mind-affecting tag; that makes them Enchantment IMO.
But the thing was, this left the new school of Insight still a little thin on direct mechanical effects. And since illusion was already manipulating light and sight to create images, I decided that it wouldn't hurt to dump the Radiant and Sonic type stuff here, instead. It's sort of like you can artfully manipulate light and sound to produce a copy of something to trick the enemy, or you can resort to the brute-force method of just blasting them. Also, because I was trying to differentiate the various damage-types a bit, I labeled Radiant, Sonic, and Force as the "exotic" damage types, and level-for-level they do less damage than Fire, Frost, Electric, and Acid, but they are harder to defend against (fewer direction counter-spells, etc). Ultimately it's just a personal choice.

I do not understand why acid spells should be moved over from conjuration to evocation. Acid is a substance, and you're conjuring it.

Evocation is for heat and cold, light and dark, sound and silence, lightning, and physical force.

Then why is the duration on a spell like Acid Splash "Instantaneous"? Why can I not fill a jar with acid and save it as a grenade for later use? Yes Fire and Lightning are energy, but when you feel "cold" that's actually a LACK of energy, or rather energy flowing from an area of higher concentration to a lower one.
Basically I decided that since the Acid-typed spells filled the same basic niche as throwing Fireballs or Lightning Bolts, then they, as part of the "Elemental" damage-types, where all going to end up in Evocation together. This is definitely a choice of mechanics over theme, but since I had already parsed Radiant, Sonic, Force, Positive, and Negative all out to other schools, then keeping the remainder of the flashy, direct-damage spells in Evocation wasn't a problem. Basically what you're doing when you cast Acid Splash as an evocation is throwing around acid-flavored energy. That's all.

Anyway, speaking of something else- why do you agree that both positive or negative ENERGY do belong in Necromancy and not with all the other energy-spells in conjuration? Why is that where you draw your arbitrary line?

I think the time-related stuff should have its own school, but with so few spells of their type, I understand why they were grouped in Transmutation.

I don't disagree with you, but I couldn't figure out where else they would be a better fit. And since I had planned on thinning out Transmutation a little by moving some spells like Control Plants to other schools, then these types of spells could stay here, in their own little subschool (Temporal).



Ultimately how many schools you want and how you choose to define things is a personal choice- it all comes down to what works for your game. I remember one poster long long ago mentioning that you could, if you wanted, boil most of the spells in D&D down to just 3 groups: summoning, whether it be creatures or energy or material. Changing, which would be transmutation and most of necromancy and the anti-magic part so Abjuration. And the "Mental" effects, including enchantment, illusion, divination, etc. It was an interesting line of thought, though I ultimately decided that sort of system might work better for a different game. On the other end of the spectrum, you could probably create dozens of tiny schools, each with it's own handful of spells, like "Fire" and "Time" and "Wood" and "Counter Magic" and "Create undead creatures" and "Figment", etc etc etc, if that was the kind of thing that worked mechanically for the story you wanted to tell.

[GalacticAxekick]

One of the issues is that if you try to define schools all by the same criteria, you are likely to end up with some schools that are HUGE and others that are tiny. That's why I said up front that the classifications where a mix of thematic and mechanical, to keep each school on relatively even footing for it's appeal and variety.

I personally do not mind if some schools are larger than others, as long as there are enough spells in each school for someone to focus solely on that school and still choose between spells.

But that's me

Yeah, I'm not saying to get rid of the physical-material summoning spells, just to change them somewhat. For example, rather than creating a PERMANENT wall of iron that never disappears, whatever you create is only temporary, just like the limited duration of other spells.

Ah! I see!

But the thing was, this left the new school of Insight still a little thin on direct mechanical effects. And since illusion was already manipulating light and sight to create images, I decided that it wouldn't hurt to dump the Radiant and Sonic type stuff here, instead. It's sort of like you can artfully manipulate light and sound to produce a copy of something to trick the enemy, or you can resort to the brute-force method of just blasting them.

Just remember, there are illusions that deceive your senses of temperature, touch, smell and taste. If the illusions that deceive your eyes legitimately create light and sound, can illusionists create heat, cold, chemicals and physical force?

Then why is the duration on a spell like Acid Splash "Instantaneous"? Why can I not fill a jar with acid and save it as a grenade for later use?

its instantaneous for purely mechanical reasons. The developers did not intend for you to store the acid.

Thematically, you could say that the acid is consumed as it corrodes its target, or that it is only conjured for a short duration.

Yes Fire and Lightning are energy, but when you feel "cold" that's actually a LACK of energy, or rather energy flowing from an area of higher concentration to a lower one.

Yes. As evocation is the school that creates and destroys energy.

Anyway, speaking of something else- why do you agree that both positive or negative ENERGY do belong in Necromancy and not with all the other energy-spells in conjuration? Why is that where you draw your arbitrary line?

I reject positive and negative energy as a concept. Necromancy doesnt deal with energy. It deals with souls.

[mcumoric]

Honestly the current magic schools aren't half bad.
If I'd suggest anything it would be grouping some of the categories' into sub-categories'.

Evocation could be grouped into diffrent specific commonly damaging elements:
"Stratamacy" (Thunder/rain/lightning related)
"Cryomancy" (Ice/Cold/Blizzard/Snow related)
"Pyromancy" (Fire/Heat/Explosion related)

Healing magic should honestly be it's own thing; Probably "Restoration", which would encompass all status removing spells.

Chronomancy would also be a neat new addition.

"Chaos" is also one I've seen which basically is the "Random BullSh*t go!" school, basically entirely made up of spells that do random things, not necessarily intended by the caster.

I also do like "Stellar" which is basically space related stuff, like manipulating gravity, adjusting density ect... (Though this sounds like transmutation with extra steps so idk???)

[Deepbluediver]

I personally do not mind if some schools are larger than others, as long as there are enough spells in each school for someone to focus solely on that school and still choose between spells.

But that's me

I wouldn't try to force every school to have the exact same number of spells at every level, I just sort-of want them to have similar degrees of appeal on average. For example, Evocation is kind of narrow in that it's just elemental blasty-spells, but that kind of playstyle has at least moderate appeal to a lot of people. It's kinda like how you could skip most of the other schools and not really miss out on anything crucial, but you'll rarely see a spellcaster without at least one good damage-dealing option.

And of course it depends on the designer and the group you have and right down to individual players, but just because of the sheer variety in human nature, it's impossible to account for every single situation so I can only give it my best effort.

Just remember, there are illusions that deceive your senses of temperature, touch, smell and taste. If the illusions that deceive your eyes legitimately create light and sound, can illusionists create heat, cold, chemicals and physical force?

Yeah, kinda.

There was a good example I talked about in another discussion with someone, and the question was something like "does a robot see an illusion?" If the answer is "no" because it's a mind-altering effect, then IMO that really makes them enchantment. If what you're creating is visible to a camera, or to anyone who walks into the space AFTER you cast the spell, then it has to have a physical component- you're manipulating light and sound. And that's where I preferred to go with them.

Ultimately I guess if you forced me to define who I think illusions should work mechanically, it would be a bit of both. You are manipulating physical forces, AND influencing someone's mental perceptions, but in bother cases it's more subtle and refined, but less direct, than the other schools it's sharing space with- Evocation and Enchantment. That's why you can't make a realistic depiction of something out of flame or frost particles from Evocation no matter how good your control is, while Illusion can create a literal mirror-image of something. The elemental energies have to much volatility and weight to allow for the fine-control you can achieve with light and sound. And by the same token, you really don't know how someone is going to react to your illusions, as compared to a spell like Cause Fear or Sleep. But if you create an illusion of a dragon, someone might run away, they might fall to their knees and start worshipping it like a god, they make by the kind of lunatic who's wanted "The Dragonslayer!" as a title since they were 8 years old and you'll just provoke them into a frenzied attack.

its instantaneous for purely mechanical reasons. The developers did not intend for you to store the acid.

Thematically, you could say that the acid is consumed as it corrodes its target, or that it is only conjured for a short duration.

Yeah you could say that. Or I could just say it's acid-flavored energy, purely for mechanical reasons.

Yes. As evocation is the school that creates and destroys energy.

That can be your definition if you want it to be- as I've explained, I was trying to differentiate the various flavors of blasting a little, so decided to split them up differently. I was trying to avoid a situation like we've got acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder, necrotic, poison, and probably at least one more, and none of them really seem all that different from each other. They all do comparable amounts of damage at a given level, just with secondary rider-effects, like Cold spells slowing you and Electric spells stunning (paralyzing) you, etc.

Since acid was basically the earth-damage part of the standard 4-man band of Elemental effects, and mechanically it was very similar (practically identical) to many other evocations, then I didn't have a problem moving those spells into Evocation. It also means that Conjuration can't easily replicate all of Evocations mechanical niche. That was a big issue in the 3.5 RAW- why would you ever choose to specialize in Evocation when plenty of other schools had the same sort of direct-damage effects, PLUS their own brand of magic?

I reject positive and negative energy as a concept. Necromancy doesn't deal with energy. It deals with souls.

Fair enough- what exactly healing or "negative energy" are mechanically varies by setting and preference. Are you filling someone back up with life-energy? Are you super-charging their metabolism so they heal naturally in moments? Are you physically knitting their flesh and bone back together, as a kind of magical-surgery? Plus there's lots of media where all the healing spells are water or nature-themed, so you've always got that as an option, too.
And like how I said for my version of things Radiant, Sonic, and Force would do less damage level-for-level than the elemental spells, Positive and Negative (renamed Vitaric and Necrotic, respectively) would do more, but have other drawbacks either thematically or mechanically.

[GalacticAxekick]

I wouldn't try to force every school to have the exact same number of spells at every level, I just sort-of want them to have similar degrees of appeal on average. For example, Evocation is kind of narrow in that it's just elemental blasty-spells, but that kind of playstyle has at least moderate appeal to a lot of people.

I think that if the developers (and by extension, homebrewers) are creative, no school is this narrow.

If Evocation, for example, is the school of creating and destroying energy, then it is not only the school of elemental blasty things. It's the school of telekinesis, force fields, precise force attacks (such as Magic Missile), blinding light, deafening noise, sickening radiation, etc

It's kinda like how you could skip most of the other schools and not really miss out on anything crucial, but you'll rarely see a spellcaster without at least one good damage-dealing option.

So you saw that everyone relies on Evocation spells to deal damage, and your solution was to redistribute Evocation spells between the other schools, so that everyone... continues to rely on the same spells to deal damage.

Again, I think that developers and homebrewers can come up with creative ways to broaden each school. There's no need (and really no benefit) to shuffling the same spells amongst the schools, when we can instead write new damage-dealing options. For example:

• Illusions should be able to simulate all forms of pain. An illusionist should be able to make you believe you have burst into flames, make you believe you suffering a heart attack, or at least make you suffer so badly that—although you know it is fake—it takes all of your willpower not to given in and collapse. An illusionist should also be able to use illusions as a distraction to score Sneak-Attack-like weapon attacks.
• Transmutations should be able to reshape stone, water, wind, and other materials in the vein of Avatar: the Last Airbender. Transmuters should be able to bludgeon, slash, pierce, fling, restrain and confound their enemies with the material around them. They should also be able to reshape their bodies into deadly weapons, from claws, fangs, horns and quills. The imagination should be the limit.
• Conjurations should be able to open portals that not only prevent attacks from hitting the caster, but also redirect them at new targets. Conjurers should also be able to summon matter from distant planes to fling as projectiles and scatter as hazards around the battlefield.
• I wrote a whole document on what Divinations should be able to do.

There was a good example I talked about in another discussion with someone, and the question was something like "does a robot see an illusion?" If the answer is "no" because it's a mind-altering effect, then IMO that really makes them enchantment. If what you're creating is visible to a camera, or to anyone who walks into the space AFTER you cast the spell, then it has to have a physical component- you're manipulating light and sound. And that's where I preferred to go with them.

In the same way that Conjurations, Evocations, and Transmutations are all "matter-altering effects", Divinations, Enchantments and Illusions can all be "mind-altering effects". There's no reason why all mind-altering effects should belong to the same school.

• Divinations reveal information to the mind, then let you think or behave how you will.
• Illusions conceal information from the mind, then let you think and behave how you will.
• Enchantments do not change the information available to you, but force you to think or behave a certain way.

That can be your definition if you want it to be- as I've explained, I was trying to differentiate the various flavors of blasting a little, so decided to split them up differently. I was trying to avoid a situation like we've got acid, cold, fire, lightning, thunder, necrotic, poison, and probably at least one more, and none of them really seem all that different from each other. They all do comparable amounts of damage at a given level, just with secondary rider-effects, like Cold spells slowing you and Electric spells stunning (paralyzing) you, etc.

This sounds like a problem you would solve by rewriting individual spells.

Moving the Thunder and Radiant spells from Evocation to Illusion doesn't actually differentiate them. They'll still do comparable damage with the same secondary riders.

What would differentiate these damage types is writing Radiant spells that deal less damage, but cause blindness, seizures and radiation poisoning (for example). These spells can (and should!) stay in the school of Evocation, because (thematically) they are producing energy and (mechanically) they are diversifying the school from pure blasting to nerfing.

Since acid was basically the earth-damage part of the standard 4-man band of Elemental effects, and mechanically it was very similar (practically identical) to many other evocations, then I didn't have a problem moving those spells into Evocation. It also means that Conjuration can't easily replicate all of Evocations mechanical niche. That was a big issue in the 3.5 RAW- why would you ever choose to specialize in Evocation when plenty of other schools had the same sort of direct-damage effects, PLUS their own brand of magic?

Because Evocation also has its own brand.

The Evocators and Conjurers can both deal direct damage. But the Conjurer has a monopoly on summoning, teleporation, dimensional travel and extra-dimensional storage, and the Evocator has a monopoly on telekinesis, force fields, force attacks (such as Magic Missile), and the intense energies that cause blindness, deafness, radiation poisoning.

[jjordan]

I've built schools of magic based on thematically similar spells (fire, healing, force, illusion, psychic). I've created schools of magic based on very small spell lists where the students could modify the basic spells (essentially meta-magic they could only apply to those small spell lists). I've built schools of magic based on the spell list of some historical founder. But those were only for NPCs, I never applied them to players.

[Deepbluediver]

I think that if the developers (and by extension, homebrewers) are creative, no school is this narrow.

If Evocation, for example, is the school of creating and destroying energy, then it is not only the school of elemental blasty things. It's the school of telekinesis, force fields, precise force attacks (such as Magic Missile), blinding light, deafening noise, sickening radiation, etc.

It seems to me like you're defining this school very broadly, and that's fine; you can make that your choice if you want. I was explaining to the OP how I did things in case he wanted to take inspiration from it.

So you saw that everyone relies on Evocation spells to deal damage, and your solution was to redistribute Evocation spells between the other schools, so that everyone... continues to rely on the same spells to deal damage.

No, on the contrary, the problem was that there were plenty of spells in other schools that directly replicated Evocations damage-dealing effects. My solution was to congregate nearly all the direct-damage spells into Evocation, with a few exceptions for the schools that lacked other direct offensive in-combat options, mainly Abjuration and Illusions/Divination. And like I said, there would be drawbacks, such as less damage-per-level or mechanical/thematic restrictions.

Again, I think that developers and homebrewers can come up with creative ways to broaden each school. There's no need (and really no benefit) to shuffling the same spells amongst the schools, when we can instead write new damage-dealing options. For example:

• Illusions should be able to simulate all forms of pain. An illusionist should be able to make you believe you have burst into flames, make you believe you suffering a heart attack, or at least make you suffer so badly that—although you know it is fake—it takes all of your willpower not to given in and collapse. An illusionist should also be able to use illusions as a distraction to score Sneak-Attack-like weapon attacks.
• Transmutations should be able to reshape stone, water, wind, and other materials in the vein of Avatar: the Last Airbender. Transmuters should be able to bludgeon, slash, pierce, fling, restrain and confound their enemies with the material around them. They should also be able to reshape their bodies into deadly weapons, from claws, fangs, horns and quills. The imagination should be the limit.
• Conjurations should be able to open portals that not only prevent attacks from hitting the caster, but also redirect them at new targets. Conjurers should also be able to summon matter from distant planes to fling as projectiles and scatter as hazards around the battlefield.
• I wrote a whole document on what Divinations should be able to do.

In the same way that Conjurations, Evocations, and Transmutations are all "matter-altering effects", Divinations, Enchantments and Illusions can all be "mind-altering effects". There's no reason why all mind-altering effects should belong to the same school.

• Divinations reveal information to the mind, then let you think or behave how you will.
• Illusions conceal information from the mind, then let you think and behave how you will.
• Enchantments do not change the information available to you, but force you to think or behave a certain way.

Again, you're defining schools very very broadly, and part of the issue that I see is you're going to run into situations where you have overlap, where a school or effect can fit into more than one category. One of my goals was clearly define where any spells would fall, so that if you wanted to make new spells or have some effect you could figure out what school it should fall into.

From your examples, I'm not sure how Transmutation gets air-bending while most of the force and energy effects are in evocation, for example. And if I can use Conjuration to open a portal to the plane of fire, why do I need Fireball as a separate spell, then? If your illusions make someone actually feel pain, how are they fake and not real? It sounds more like you're setting off someone's nerve-receptors, which I'm not sure just yet what school that would be, but it doesn't sound like an illusion to me.

This sounds like a problem you would solve by rewriting individual spells.

I can do both, but I'm not convinced that every single Cold spell needs a slowing component, or that every single Radiant spell needs to Blind someone.

Moving the Thunder and Radiant spells from Evocation to Illusion doesn't actually differentiate them. They'll still do comparable damage with the same secondary riders.

What would differentiate these damage types is writing Radiant spells that deal less damage, but cause blindness, and writing Thunder spells that deal less damage, but cause deafness. These spells can (and should!) stay in the school of Evocation, because (thematically) they are producing energy and (mechanically) they are diversifying the school from pure blasting to nerfing.

That's very similar to what I'm suggesting. I said back in my very first post that, level-for-level, Radiant and Sonic (and Force) spells would do less damage than their elemental counterparts. Also, while I'm willing to allow some direct-damage spells into other schools, if the secondary rider is good enough to make up for the damage that you've lost, it's only situationally better to take any evocation spells at all and we're back to square 1 again.

Because Evocation also has its own brand.

The Evocators and Conjurers can both deal direct damage. But the Conjurer has a monopoly on summoning, teleporation, dimensional travel and extra-dimensional storage, and the Evocator has a monopoly on telekinesis, force fields, force attacks (such as Magic Missile), and the intense energies that cause blindness, deafness, radiation poisoning.

In the 3.5 RAW, Mage Hand was a transmutation-school spell, so clearly it doesn't. And, while I don't completely disgree with you, part of my goal was to differentiate things both thematically and mechanically. If conjuration can summon a portal to redirect an attack, and Evocation can summon a wall of force to block it, their basically doing the same thing, so what's the point of even having different schools then? Also, damage is damage, and while it might be flavorful to differentiate how exactly your spell is burning something to death, once people start digging down into the mechanics it doesn't really matter IMO.
Plus, I tend to prefer that spells have distinct mechanical effects. Spells with more than 1 component where part of the problem with differentiating things clearly. I'd rather have 1 spell that dealt damage and another spell that Blinded or Stunned or Sickened, and I'd be reluctant to mix them. I'm not saying I never would write a spell like that, but it's not my first choice. If you, personally, want spells like that, then go ahead, but we'll have to acknowledge that we have fundamentally different goals in mind with our design-choices.

[Calen]

My homebrew world has people that argue over how to sort magic. One group sorts it elementally (Air, Water, Earth, Fire, Life)
The other group uses the DnD systems schools. The spell are all the same but does make for some interesting RP once in a while.

[Amechra]

Epideromancy, Bibliomancy, Cliomancy, Mechanomancy, Urbanomancy, Narco-Alchemy, Pornomancy, Dipsomancy, Videomancy, Personamancy, Infomancy, Thanatomancy, Cryptomancy, Cameraturgy, Cinemancy, Vestamancy...

Unknown Armies is cheating, especially since there's the strong implication that no two Adepts practice exactly the same school. Unlike Avatars, a Dipsomancer or a Fulminaturge isn't drawing from some universal "truth" — it's just that enough people rationalize their self-destructive magic through alcoholism or "I have a gun" that you can make vague generalities.

...

Honestly, I like that way more than "ALL MAGIC FALLS INTO THESE EIGHT NEAT CATEGORIES".

[GalacticAxekick]

Again, you're defining schools very very broadly, and part of the issue that I see is you're going to run into situations where you have overlap, where a school or effect can fit into more than one category. One of my goals was clearly define where any spells would fall, so that if you wanted to make new spells or have some effect you could figure out what school it should fall into.

I have the same goal. That is, in fact, my primary goal.

From your examples, I'm not sure how Transmutation gets air-bending while most of the force and energy effects are in evocation, for example.

That's a reasonable criticism. Air-bending fits neatly under Evocation.

And if I can use Conjuration to open a portal to the plane of fire, why do I need Fireball as a separate spell, then?

A portal to the plane of fire would be like an open oven or fireplace. It would he filled with scorching flames and it would be hot nearby, but it would be no substitute for the fiery explosion of a Fireball.

If your illusions make someone actually feel pain, how are they fake and not real? It sounds more like you're setting off someone's nerve-receptors, which I'm not sure just yet what school that would be, but it doesn't sound like an illusion to me.

That sounds EXACTLY like an illusion to me. You "feel like you are on fire" but you're completely fine. You "feel a sharp pain in your chest" but you are not bring stabbed or suffering a heart attack. The pain is a false alarm. An figment of your imagination meant to distract and subdue you.

Yes, your nerves are being set off. That's true when you see, hear or feel anything at all Your nerves go off when you dream, but your dreams are not real.

If illusions arent allowed to stimulate your senses, what do they do?

I can do both, but I'm not convinced that every single Cold spell needs a slowing component, or that every single Radiant spell needs to Blind someone.

I never suggested that they should.

I suggested that instead of moving effects from one one school to another, but leaving them the same and leaving players with the same narrow options, you should write new effects that expand their options.

In the 3.5 RAW, Mage Hand was a transmutation-school spell, so clearly it doesn't.

We're discussing homebrew. Specifically, we're discussing redoing the spell school system. RAW doesn't matter.

And, while I don't completely disgree with you, part of my goal was to differentiate things both thematically and mechanically. If conjuration can summon a portal to redirect an attack, and Evocation can summon a wall of force to block it, their basically doing the same thing, so what's the point of even having different schools then?

Using Conjuration, you might use your reaction to capture one attack in one portal and release it from another, thereby redirecting it at a new target. This combination of attack and defense is impossible with evocation.

But using Evocation, you can project a bubble of force to block attacks from all directions, and for an extended period of time. This encompassing and long lasting defense is impossible with conjuration.

Yes both schools can defend you, but they are far from doing the same thing.

Also, damage is damage [...] I'd rather have 1 spell that dealt damage and another spell that Blinded or Stunned or Sickened, and I'd be reluctant to mix them.

I dont think I suggested making spells that mix effects.

What I did suggest is that spells within a school could have a variety of effects, all rooted in the same phenomenon (e.g. damaging, defensive, blinding, deafening, utility evocations all accomplished by creating raw energy)

[Anonymouswizard]

Unknown Armies is cheating, especially since there's the strong implication that no two Adepts practice exactly the same school. Unlike Avatars, a Dipsomancer or a Fulminaturge isn't drawing from some universal "truth" — it's just that enough people rationalize their self-destructive magic through alcoholism or "I have a gun" that you can make vague generalities.

True, on the other hand it's a great example of why 'magic school' (or magic discipline or whatever) is practically meaningless.

Plus most Adepts don't care about how their magick works anyway.

Honestly, I like that way more than "ALL MAGIC FALLS INTO THESE EIGHT NEAT CATEGORIES".

Oh, I love Unknown Armies and it's magick. I've been getting more info Avatars recently, despite the coolness of many Adept schools, because most of their powers are just more practical.

Although even though Avatars do fall into 'your magic falls into one of these categories' they are by no means neat, and there are potentially hundreds of divisions.

The other great thing about Adept magick is that any attempt to understand it from multiple angles drives you insane. Not that most Adepts would want a second School.

[HumanFighter]

Don't forget Sadomancy, the magic of Pain lol jk
In my game I just have 4 basic types of magic. You got Elementalism (needs no explanation), Celestialism (the magic of gods/celestials/angels whatever, contains most of the heals, buffs, divinations, and even some summoning. Evil characters generally can't cast it though.) Necromancy (cuz of course) and Psychomancy/Illusion: the magic of the mind.
The problem is there is some magical effects, like teleportation, that idk how to categorize.
As for Chronomancy, (hell no)

[Deepbluediver]

That's a reasonable criticism. Air-bending fits neatly under Evocation.

I don't disagree with that- under my system a spell like Gust of Wind would probably end up in Evocation, because it's an "elemental" effect. What I'm asking is, under YOUR system how do you clearly define what school this should fit into?

A portal to the plane of fire would be like an open oven or fireplace. It would he filled with scorching flames and it would be hot nearby, but it would be no substitute for the fiery explosion of a Fireball.
....
That sounds EXACTLY like an illusion to me. You "feel like you are on fire" but you're completely fine. You "feel a sharp pain in your chest" but you are not bring stabbed or suffering a heart attack. The pain is a false alarm. An figment of your imagination meant to distract and subdue you.

Yes, your nerves are being set off. That's true when you see, hear or feel anything at all Your nerves go off when you dream, but your dreams are not real.

I'm replying to these together because I want to ask the same questions about them- how do you bring this across MECHANICALLY? Ultimately, the fluff is gonna take a back seat to mechanics, so how is it that you are differentiating the effect of Evocation's Fireball vs. Conjurations Open-Portal-to-Plane-of-Fire?
Or for illusion, how do you bring across that you're manipulating a creature, be it a PC or NPC or Monster or whatever?

That's why I defined my Illusion (aka Insight) spells as specifically manipulating light and sound. A character noticing that the hoard of orcs has no body-odor or that the red dragon isn't producing any heat could be brought across through a high save or good Perception check.

Of if my system had a spell like "Lash of Pain", it might deal more damage level-per-level than an evocation spell, but all that damage would be non-lethal, which could make it situationally more or less useful. I'm not 100% sure what school I'd put it in, but I'm leaning towards Transmutation, actually. Anything that directly manipulates another creature's body, such as activating all their nerve-endings at once, feels like it should be in the Transmutation school. And maybe some creature-types without discernable anatomy like Undead or Constructs would be immune.

If illusions arent allowed to stimulate your senses, what do they do?

I think I've already covered this, but let me explore a slightly different topic- exactly what senses are your illusions allowed to manipulate? In addition to the big 5 of Sight, Sounds, Touch, Taste, and Smell, you've also get sense like Balance or Time or Pain. Could an illusion make someone clumsy? Maybe, although my gut-instinct is to say that sounds more like an Enchantment type of effect. What about distorting perception- can I justify putting Slow and Haste and Time Stop in Illusion? etc etc etc

I suggested that instead of moving effects from one one school to another, but leaving them the same and leaving players with the same narrow options, you should write new effects that expand their options.

I'm not sure I get your point- if I'm rewriting spells anyway, then moving them from one school to another seems like a minor, even inconsequential additional half-step.

We're discussing homebrew. Specifically, we're discussing redoing the spell school system. RAW doesn't matter.

In that case, what was the point of your previous comment? Either you think I should leave spells where they are an rewrite them to fit the new definitions of schools, or I should be free to re-arrange things however I want.

Using Conjuration, you might use your reaction to capture one attack in one portal and release it from another, thereby redirecting it at a new target. This combination of attack and defense is impossible with evocation.

But using Evocation, you can project a bubble of force to block attacks from all directions, and for an extended period of time. This encompassing and long lasting defense is impossible with conjuration.

Eh, OK. I think I see what you're getting at. And I don't disagree that's a justifiable distinction, but it would also be workable under my system. The only difference is that the Wall of Force would be Abjuration instead of Evocation. Acknowledging that the original definitions of the spell-schools where bjorked, Abjuration was supposed to have a more defensive focus, so I kind of like moving more of the defensive-type of effects into there if I can justify them as being Force-based.

As an aside, how exactly do you interpret "Force" damage? (or defense?) Like I said early on, I wanted to get rid of all the untyped damage spells, like Disintegration, and a bunch of them would probably end up as Force effects instead. I guess I was sort of seeing "Force" as a combination of both physical and energy; it doesn't have any real-world analog. You seem to be interpreting it as purely physical force, but them I'm a little confused on how it's also supposed to defend against energy-attacks.

What I did suggest is that spells within a school could have a variety of effects, all rooted in the same phenomenon (e.g. damaging, defensive, blinding, deafening, utility evocations all accomplished by creating raw energy)

OK, I guess I'm just putting forth a different sort division. I'd likely put the blinding and deafening effects in Illusion, and while Evocation can have defensive effects it would be through direct manipulation of a specific element. So for example, you might be able to have an Evocation that could be cast as a reaction that made you immune to a Fire spell or Electric spell, but the Wall of Force from Abjuration would make you resistant to all energy attacks. It's basically a trade-off between power and versatility. By the same token, in my system if Evocations dealt more damage but where easier to counter and/or defend against, then having a back-up of a damaging Radiant/Sonic spells could be situationally useful. Just something else to consider.


Also, and I admit this is getting off-topic so feel free to not address it if you're not interested, but I'm not a fan of most casters having instant access to all 8+1 schools all the time right from level 1. In addition to sort-of outlawing certain types of effects from certain schools, I'd force more actual choices on spellcasters. In 3.5 RAW, Clerics, Druids, and Bards where all sort-of thematically limited, but Wizards and Sorcerers have access to virtually any effect they want. Sure you could "specialize" by banning your access to 1 or 2 schools in exchange for a power-boost, but given the poorly-defined dispersion of spells, that was barely an inconvenience to most players. I'd do the opposite- give low level Wizards access to only a few schools, and allow them to unlock more as they level'd up. That would force players to make actual choices. IMO, what you CAN'T do is often just as interesting as what you CAN do.

[GalacticAxekick]

I don't disagree with that- under my system a spell like Gust of Wind would probably end up in Evocation, because it's an "elemental" effect. What I'm asking is, under YOUR system how do you clearly define what school this should fit into?

I'd make all of the wind spells Transmutations (because they reshape the air and do not produce immaterial, all-purpose force) and all the telekinesis spells Evocations (because they produce raw force).

But because most of the game takes place in open air (not in the vacuum of space or under the sea), wind spells and telekinesis spells are functionally quite similar. And because both wind and telekinesis spells are few and far in between, I recognize that both "airbender" or "telekineticist" builds would rely on both. I think its reasonable be put them all in the school of Evocation until both sets of spells are expanded and their differences are highlighted.

I'm replying to these together because I want to ask the same questions about them- how do you bring this across MECHANICALLY? Ultimately, the fluff is gonna take a back seat to mechanics, so how is it that you are differentiating the effect of Evocation's Fireball vs. Conjurations Open-Portal-to-Plane-of-Fire?

Fireball is a 3rd level spell. It creates an instantaneous 20 ft radius explosion of flame, which deals 8d6 (about 28) damage, and allows a Dexterity saving throw for half damage.

Portal-To-Plane-of-Fire would be a variation of Gate, and therefore a 9th level spell. Like Gate, it would create a flat, circular portal between 5 and 20 ft in diameter, which would last for up to 1 minute (as long as the caster can concentrate). Like Wall of Fire, the portal would deal 5d8 (about 22.5) fire damage to each creature that ends its turn within 10 feet of its mouth. A creature would take the same damage when it enters the portal for the first time on a turn or ends its turn on the plane of fire.

Or for illusion, how do you bring across that you're manipulating a creature, be it a PC or NPC or Monster or whatever?

First and foremost, it would require a Wisdom saving throw (rather than an attack roll, a Dexterity saving throw, etc), and it would deal psychic damage (rather than the perceived damage type).

For example:

Spoiler: New Spell: Phantom Pain

Show

Phantom Pain
Illusion cantrip
Casting time: 1 action
Range: 60 ft
Components: Somatic, Verbal
Duration: Instantaneous

You subject a creature you see within range to illusory pain. Your target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or take 1d10 psychic damage, which it perceives as any damage type of your choice.

If your target is vulnerable, resistant, or immune to the chosen damage type, it takes double, half, or no damage from this spell (respectively).

At higher levels. This spell deals 2d10 damage beginning when you reach 5th level, 3d10 damage beginning at 11th level, and 4d10 damage beginning at 17th level.

But much more elaborate spells could be written, if you want to emphasize the fact that the damage is fake and the pain is temporary.

Spoiler: New Spell: Torture

Show

Torture
???th-level Illusion spell
Casting time: 1 action
Range: 60 ft
Components: Somatic, Verbal
Duration: Concentration (up to 1 minute)

You subject a creature you see within range to illusory pain, which it perceives as any damage type of your choice. Your target must make a Wisdom saving throw, and if your target is vulnerable, resistant, or immune to the chosen damage type, it has disadvantage on, has advantage on, or automatically succeeds on this save (respectively).

If your target fails this save, a wave of pain knocks it prone, incapacitates it, and prevents it from standing until the start of your next turn, or until you allow it to stand, take an action, or take a reaction. On each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to send another wave of pain to the target automatically.

If your target succeeds on this save, it is incapacitated until the start of its turn. This spell then ends.

That's why I defined my Illusion (aka Insight) spells as specifically manipulating light and sound. A character noticing that the horder of orcs has no body-odor or that the red dragon isn't producing any heat could be brought across through a high save or good Perception check.

That's true for purely mental illusions. Almost every illusion spell in the game specifically says "You can discern that the illusion is fake with a high Wisdom save or Perception/Investigation check".

I think I've already covered this, but let me explore a slightly different topic- exactly what senses are your illusions allowed to manipulate? In addition to the big 5 of Sight, Sounds, Touch, Taste, and Smell, you've also get sense like Balance or Time or Pain.

Illusions can manipulate all of your senses. Sight, Hearing, Taste, Smell, Touch, Temperature, and Balance.

If I recall my courses in perception psychology, Pain is not a unique sense, but the overstimulation of any sense, and thus well within the domain of Illusion.

Could an illusion make someone clumsy? Maybe, although my gut-instinct is to say that sounds more like an Enchantment type of effect.

If a spell lies to your sense of balance, inducing that feeling that "the world is spinning" and making you dizzy, nauseous and clumsy, I think that spell is unambiguously an Illusion. An Enchantment would not affect your senses, but your thoughts and behavior. And so an Enchantment meant to make you clumsy would need to (for example) simulate drunkenness or (for example), directly force your body to move in ways you do not intend to.

What about distorting perception- can I justify putting Slow and Haste and Time Stop in Illusion? etc etc etc

I'm not sure time is a "sense". Sure, we are aware of the flow of time, but it's not something our body is measuring the same way it measures light, sound, pressure, etc. I'd leave the time spells out of this school.

I'm not sure I get you're point- if I'm rewriting spells anyway, then moving them from one school to another seems like a minor, even inconsequential additional half-step.

Organizing spells by school is crucial, because it allows you to have School Specialization Features.

For example, if all of the spells that reveal knowledge are organized under Divination, you can have a feature that says "Any wizard can obtain secret knowledge, but you're a Psychic Medium. When you cast a Divination spell with a range of self, can cause it to target a different willing creature. You can make THAT GUY Comprehend Languages, or make THAT GUY See Invisibility. etc"

But at the same time, it's important to create variety within a school. If many spells within a school do virtually the same thing, it's crucial to rewrite some of them or write new spells that expand the usefulness and appeal of that school.

For example, if most of the Evocation spells say "targets in this area take a heap of damage", it would be useful to edit spells or add spells that say "targets in this area are Blinded by intense light," "targets in this area are Deafened by intense noise", targets in this area are frozen by intense cold", and "targets in flung/lifted/restrained/crushed by intense force".

Think about how these new spells might benefit from school-wide Evocation features! Evocation specialists can already "Sculpt Spells", meaning that they can creature pockets in an Evocation spell's area where no target is effected. But now that we're writing Evocation spells that do not merely deal damage, but instead inflict status conditions, that same feature allows us to create pockets where no one is Blinded/Deafened/frozen/pushed around.

TL:DR Organizing spells by school allows us to make school specialist features, which is fun. Putting new and edited spells within a school expands the options a player has and expends which options can interact with those school specialist features, which is fun.

As an aside, how exactly do you interpret "Force" damage? (or defense?) Like I said early on, I wanted to get rid of all the untyped damage spells, like Disintegration, and a bunch of them would probably end up as Force effects instead. I guess I was sort of seeing "Force" as a combination of both physical and energy; it doesn't have any real-world analog. You seem to be interpreting it as purely physical force, but them I'm a little confused on how it's also supposed to defend against energy-attacks.

I interpret Force as "physical force, not applied by touch, but imparted directly on an object". Force is not a gust of wind blowing against you or a hammer crashing into you. Force is your body accelerating magically.

Force can be used defensively to simply decelerate an incoming object. Not like "blocking it with a wall" but more like "causing it to slow abruptly when it reaches this zone". And Force can be used aggressively to accelerate and dis-assemble an object. Not like "shooting you with a missile" but more like "ripping you apart, molecule by molecule, where this beam touches".

This understanding of Force is useful for understanding Magic Missile, Disintegrate, Mage Armor, Shield, Wall of Force, Mage Hand and Telekinesis. Even most forms of energy damage (fire, cold, lightning, thunder) could be conceivably blocked by this means (pushing the fiery plasma, the cold air, the charged particles, and sound waves back). But you're right that this understanding can't explain how Force blocksrRadiant damage.

Also, and I admit this is getting off-topic so feel free to not address it if you're not interested, but I'm not a fan of most casters having instant access to all 8+1 schools all the time right from level 1. In addition to sort-of outlawing certain types of effects from certain schools, I'd force more actual choices on spellcasters. In 3.5 RAW, Clerics, Druids, and Bards where all sort-of thematically limited, but Wizards and Sorcerers have access to virtually any effect they want. Sure you could "specialize" by banning your access to 1 or 2 schools in exchange for a power-boost, but given the poorly-defined dispersion of spells, that was barely an inconvenience to most players. I'd do the opposite- give low level Wizards access to only a few schools, and allow them to unlock more as they level'd up. That would force players to make actual choices. IMO, what you CAN'T do is often just as interesting as what you CAN do.

I think that's pretty reasonable.