OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

[Quizatzhaderac]

We know that the Outer Planes (or at least their waiting rooms) amplify scrying spells/effects to such a degree that the far-from-epic Eugene can simply breach Xykon's Cloister for Roy. Acquiring a scroll of Lesser Planar Ally and getting a Teevo (or something to that effect) set up on the "clouds" sounds cheap and easy for one such as Serini.
Heck, if Evil adventurers can Plane Shift into Celestia proper, she can probably get into the waiting room and do it herself.

We know there's a memory wipe effect when returning, and I would think there may be rules about letting mortals make use of it.

This might even be one of the big rules that even the chaotic gods seem to follow.

Do you know who saw what happened in the throne room?

Xykon. Redcloak. Soon.

Serini could have asked any of them.

My money is on O'chul -> Hinjo -> scribe that shouldn't have been trusted -> information broker -> Serini

My reasons are twofold:
1) This seems like a much more rouge like way to discover things than mind reading or scrying.
2) She uses the awkward, double wording that O'chul used to describe events to Hinjo. Someone that saw the events themselves would have no reason to explain things that way.

[danielxcutter]

We know there's a memory wipe effect when returning, and I would think there may be rules about letting mortals make use of it.

This might even be one of the big rules that even the chaotic gods seem to follow.

That's not how it works - the fuzzy memory effect only applies when in the afterlife proper; Roy still remembers everything he saw in the waiting room plane.

Being capable of using the scrying clouds is a different matter, yes, but if Eugene can still use it after being essentially on everyone's blacklist for abducting a celestial and the actual celestials can use it to watch mortal lives like a sitcom, it's probably not too big a deal if you're not Evil.

My money is on O'chul -> Hinjo -> scribe that shouldn't have been trusted -> information broker -> Serini

My reasons are twofold:
1) This seems like a much more rouge like way to discover things than mind reading or scrying.
2) She uses the awkward, double wording that O'chul used to describe events to Hinjo. Someone that saw the events themselves would have no reason to explain things that way.

Alternatively, she just UMDed a crystal ball for it, if that item even needs a check.

[Metastachydium]

We know there's a memory wipe effect when returning, and I would think there may be rules about letting mortals make use of it.

This might even be one of the big rules that even the chaotic gods seem to follow.

That memory wipe only erases whatever that's been experienced inside the afterworld proper. Roy can remember anything he saw or did on the clouds (i.e. the waiting room) just fine.

[Wraithfighter]

The whole "The Oracle is unhelpful to violent jerks" thing is kinda amusing when you think about it... because a lot of the time, they become violent jerks because he's unhelpful.

This isn't a criticism of the story, its the classic predestination paradox stuff. The Oracle looks into the future upon seeing Roy and Durkon arriving, and sees that in response to giving them a technically-correct-but-obviously-not-at-all-what-they-paid-a-lot-for answer to the very expensive question, they dangle him outside a window. So... he does that anyway, knowing that they're going to threaten his life, because screw those guys for reacting to being kinda ripped off with violence in the future!

Or with Belkar: He knows that Belkar's going to kill him (but in the temporary manner), and can almost certainly see that his patronizing mockery is a cause of that (the somewhat bigger cause, of course, being that Belkar's a sociopathic mass-murderer with a particular hatred for Kobolds), and decides to dump on him anyway. After all, that SOB's going to murder him eventually, why should he play nice?

(of course, doing so also triggers Belkar's Mark of Justice at an opportune moment, kickstarting his character development and pushing him more towards the maybe-not-even-entirely-evil halfling we've got now, kinda might be important for saving the world with the increasingly small amount of time he has left on this world?)

Just speaks to an interesting sort of mindset. Future's locked down, nothing he can do about it, no point trying to change stuff, eh, screw it all and them in particular.

EDIT: ...I have a potty mouth.

[Dion]

And if Giants are mammals, then so are the trolls, who are also Giant Humanoids in... pretty much all editions I can think of, actually. If we're supposed to believe D&D phylogeny is in any way coherent, at least :p

I believe trolls are plants.

[Metastachydium]

I believe trolls are plants.

That's not an outlandish idea at all, you know!

[bunsen_h]

Giants, by all appearances, seem to be hairy 4-limbed creatures that produce milk, if you look at how generally humanoid the hill/stone/fire/frost/cloud/storm giants are. I mean, aside from the magic bits, they're literally giant humans in anatomy. Hence the name. It's not a stretch to call them mammals. And if Giants are mammals, then so are the trolls, who are also Giant Humanoids in... pretty much all editions I can think of, actually. If we're supposed to believe D&D phylogeny is in any way coherent, at least :p

There are several features which are usually used to categorize creatures into the category "mammal" in our world, short of analysis of their biological heritage: hair, live-bearing, nursing their young, warm blood. Do trolls have warm blood?

In our world, we can also get into the biological heritage thing, and look at how platypodes evolved. That puts them firmly into the "mammal" category; we can trace how they diverged from other mammals. In the fantasy world of OOTS, trolls didn't evolve and diverge from other creatures -- they were created as their own beings. So there isn't the same kind of evolutionary tree.

Are there platypodes in D&D? "The third giant platypus..." <*roll*> "... hits with its hind legs. Save versus poison."

[Dion]

There are several features which are usually used to categorize creatures into the category "mammal" in our world, short of analysis of their biological heritage: hair, live-bearing, nursing their young, warm blood. Do trolls have warm blood?

Trolls don’t have nipples

Source: the picture in this Wikipedia article. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trol...s_%26_Dragons)

Conclusion: trolls are not mammals.

[Psyren]

Trolls don’t have nipples

Source: the picture in this Wikipedia article. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trol...s_%26_Dragons)

Conclusion: trolls are not mammals.

Counterpoint, they have breasts.

[georgie_leech]

Counterpoint, they have breasts.

At the risk of undermining my own position, that's not especially strong evidence in this comic

[Psyren]

At the risk of undermining my own position, that's not especially strong evidence in this comic

Damn, no wonder they saved Serini if she was selling those

[KorvinStarmast]

And if Giants are mammals, then so are the trolls, who are also Giant Humanoids in, pretty much all editions I can think of, actually.

Hmm, giant class in AD&D 1e, just a monster in original, giant type in 3 and 5 ... OK, I see where this is coming from. I never got the idea that they gave birth, but maybe they do.

In the fantasy world of OOTS, trolls didn't evolve and diverge from other creatures -- they were created as their own beings. So there isn't the same kind of evolutionary tree.

Which is more like where I am coming from.

Trolls don’t have nipples
Conclusion: trolls are not mammals.

I am now getting a flashback to Meet the Parents, so I think I've exhausted this line of inquiry.
Thanks to all for the inputs.

[tanonev]

Alternatively, she just UMDed a crystal ball for it, if that item even needs a check.

The throne room is shielded from scrying.

[Hurkyl]

The throne room is shielded from scrying.

That's one of the reasons we're discussing O-Chul's report to Hinjo upon escaping Xykon in regard to this topic.

Another is the fact the description he gives at the time (my choice, my blade) so closely resembles what Serini throws at him.

[Ruck]

That's one of the reasons we're discussing O-Chul's report to Hinjo upon escaping Xykon in regard to this topic.

Another is the fact the description he gives at the time (my choice, my blade) so closely resembles what Serini throws at him.

Yeah, this is more or less what I was trying to say when I said that was the source of information for Serini that made the most sense to me.

[F.Harr]

Could the constant spam calling have had anything to do with this outcome?

Nah! She came into it disinclined to help.

I think.

Roy . . .

[Trafalgar]

Trolls don’t have nipples

Source: the picture in this Wikipedia article. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trol...s_%26_Dragons)

Conclusion: trolls are not mammals.

Trolls could be marsupials, which are mammals but have their teats on the inside of the pouch.

[Liquor Box]

Imean, with the Oracle available, why isn't everyone using him more? I all I can say is that they don't, and, as you helpfully noted, the only thing we know she knows in detail fits in perfectly fine with a single visit to the Oracle.

Well its expensive and you have to pass some tests to get there, you only ask a single question per visit then the answers are often cryptic, so less useful.

But your theory on Serini is that she gets clear and full answers to her questions. In those circumstances there's no obvious reason why Serini wouldn't ask lots of questions, and have a lot more knowledge than she seems to have.

[georgie_leech]

Trolls could be marsupials, which are mammals but have their teats on the inside of the pouch.

Must resist urge to stat up Australian Jumping Trolls...

[Wraithfighter]

Well its expensive and you have to pass some tests to get there, you only ask a single question per visit then the answers are often cryptic, so less useful.

Also, for the same reason as why people in horror films don't call the cops: Because that would be boring.

In this case it's probably an in-universe thing. Oracle likes a show, and makes his customer service as awful as possible to discourage repeat visitors so that people don't lean on him all the time. Besides, if he doesn't want to answer someone's questions, he just has to... not be there. Pretty sure he left Xykon hanging at one point.

[elros]

To quote one of my friends, "at the moment her plan looks like "keep Xykon at arm's length, but if he gets past me, GG".

To be quite honest, I haven't come across even a remotely convincing argument to the contrary yet.

I really like Serini, but I admit that is a fair explanation of her approach. I suspect there are a lot more traps and obstacles left (it could end up being a less lethal Tomb of Horrors), and there may even be secret passages that would allow future parties to assault Xykon if he gets through the defenses. The Giant has not revealed any of those, but I am assuming an epic rogue has a few more tricks up her sleeve, and that is why I give her more of a chance than other people on the forum.

[mjasghar]

Trolls don’t have nipples

Source: the picture in this Wikipedia article. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trol...s_%26_Dragons)

Conclusion: trolls are not mammals.

That’s probably due to laws around nipples being shown where kids can see them - a notorious issue at fantasy conventions

[Fyraltari]

That’s probably due to laws around nipples being shown where kids can see them - a notorious issue at fantasy conventions

Ah yes, the nipple, the most traumatic part of the body.

[Peelee]

But your theory on Serini is that she gets clear and full answers to her questions. In those circumstances there's no obvious reason why Serini wouldn't ask lots of questions, and have a lot more knowledge than she seems to have.[/QUOTE]
Sure there is. She is satisfied. That you might want more has no bearing on what someone else may want.

[Liquor Box]

Sure there is. She is satisfied. That you might want more has no bearing on what someone else may want.

If she has access to such a font of information, and she is satisfied with knowing very little about a scenario she's so invested in, then she really is a moron. There are questions that even an unintelligent person would have thought to ask, which would have given her much better information than she appears to have. The catch-cry of every person who has been denying that Serini has made poor decisions is "she had incomplete information", which, on your theory, would be a choice she made rather than just the circumstance she is operating from.

[Peelee]

If she has access to such a font of information, and she is satisfied with knowing very little about a scenario she's so invested in, then she really is a moron. There are questions that even an unintelligent person would have thought to ask, which would have given her much better information than she appears to have. The catch-cry of every person who has been denying that Serini has made poor decisions is "she had incomplete information", which, on your theory, would be a choice she made rather than just the circumstance she is operating from.

Again, she is not you. Also, "very little detail" s pretty subjective here. We don't know what she knows. If you feel comfortable judging her on such little information, then have at it. I, for one, choose to withhold such judgment until I have a much more complete picture. It may yet come to be that I agree she's an idiot. But I lm not going to do that on the incredibly low amount of info we have on her so far.

[elros]

On the topic of what Serini knows, if she finds out Redcloak's plan, she may actually side with him. She already pointed out that several monster races might be better off under Xykon, so it is not a stretch to think she will would allow the gate to threaten the gods. It would not surprise me if Serini succeeds in convincing Redcloak where Durkon failed, which is not surprising given her higher charisma.

BTW, I think this is the inspiration for Serini's response to anyone messing with the gate.

[Liquor Box]

Again, she is not you. Also, "very little detail" s pretty subjective here. We don't know what she knows. If you feel comfortable judging her on such little information, then have at it. I, for one, choose to withhold such judgment until I have a much more complete picture. It may yet come to be that I agree she's an idiot. But I lm not going to do that on the incredibly low amount of info we have on her so far.

She's not me - I'm not holding her to that standard. I think even Elan would think to ask questions like "will the Order destroy the gate" in Serini's position if he had access to an Oracle that gave coherent information freely.

It seems to me that you are speculating on equally scant information here. Wasn't it you who posited the theory that the information Serini has came from the Oracle based on no more information than it kind of making sense to you? Do you think it is different to speculate about whether fictional characters made poor decisions, than on than things like where they get there information?

[danielxcutter]

I should point out that the "destroy the world" factor was without the Ritual even being started; once it does there's a very good chance of the gods as a whole pulling the rug out from everyone.

[Peelee]

She's not me - I'm not holding her to that standard. I think even Elan would think to ask questions like "will the Order destroy the gate" in Serini's position if he had access to an Oracle that gave coherent information freely.

It seems to me that you are speculating on equally scant information here. Wasn't it you who posited the theory that the information Serini has came from the Oracle based on no more information than it kind of making sense to you? Do you think it is different to speculate about whether fictional characters made poor decisions, than on than things like where they get there information?

So why have you never complained that the adult black dragon is an idiot? After all, she was invested in and cared deeply for her son, was reptilian and thus got explicitly favorable treatment by the Oracle, was fabulously wealthy, and yet was satisfied with knowing virtually nothing about how her son would die and, upon death, only learning base information about Vaarsuvius?

And, IIRC, the site's FAQ even answers this for you. Characters will not always make the most optimal choices. That's how the entire story goes. If you choose to believe Serini is an idiot for not taking advantage of a resource to it's absolute limit while not faulting anyone else in the world for that, then feel free to do so. But I won't be able to join you.