A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #841
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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Skull the Troll View Post
    You're treating this as though its not a fantasy story. Its ok to kill and steal and break and enter, etc in DND. In fact its usually encouraged. I love considering the actions and morality of the people in the story too, but you can't compare this world to that one. In that one it is arguable that there is no such thing as murder, and that sometimes killing people is a wonderful thing. Just ask Uncle Kandro.
    I don't think that's an accurate summary of the morality of OOTS at all, either by the explicit content of the comic or by Rich's own comments on fantasy morality vis-a-vis OOTS.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Skull the Troll View Post
    You're treating this as though its not a fantasy story. Its ok to kill and steal and break and enter, etc in DND. In fact its usually encouraged. I love considering the actions and morality of the people in the story too, but you can't compare this world to that one. In that one it is arguable that there is no such thing as murder, and that sometimes killing people is a wonderful thing. Just ask Uncle Kandro.
    One of the main points of this comic is that maybe those things shouldn't be accepted (or at least unquestioned) in D&D, nor even fantasy stories in general. The second quote in my sig speaks to that pretty directly in fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  3. - Top - End - #843
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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    You are always "forgeting" that Serini knows that Ochul and the Order are, at the very least, partially guilty of the destruction of 3 gates. She is not Elan, she doesn't need 200 foot tall flaming letters saying "these guys are bad news to your gate". Ans she can't wait for them to join forces and wait to see what they do then, couse she is not that powerful to stop them all together.

    And btw, talking to Lien ans Ochul is not an option, we have alreasy seen that conversation, she won't believe them. And once she speak and lose the surprise factor, capturing them is far more difficult. That is not a good act, that is a stupid act.

    And doing nothing is not good either, is negligent, her job is defend he gate.
    Ummm, I don't think I'm the one forgetting things here.

    Do you remember we covered the "they've done it before" point a page or so back? You came up with the analogy of someone who'd vandalised a car before being somewhere in the vicinity of a car factory with a nice car inside. You then mentioned preventative detention was a thing in your country, but weren't sure exactly when it applied.

    I think where we get to is that a person has vandalised a car before and is somewhere near a car factory, and is overheard to say they wont approach the factory because someone might see them, is not a reason to capture them. The guard who knew they were there would not be negligent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    You don't need to convince me, you need to convince, at least, the gods, Serini, V and Blackwing, who all think destroying a gate is not the right call. In fact, if Roy could ttavel in time, he would stopped himself of doing it, you know, the gods almost destroyed the world for that "right call".
    In fact, Xykon might have been killed for good there by the Vector legion and their armies, who knows, or the other way, that would have been good to the world, and epic to de story XD.
    Well, V said it was the right call based on what Roy knew. Thor didn't even ask Durkon about it, so I don't think they have to convince him. And it looks like they've probably defeated Serini, so they don't need to convince her of anything.

    In saying that, I think they might well convince Serini - her role in the story going forward may working for the Order, similar to Minrah.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-10-02 at 08:02 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #844
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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    Team Nale barely glance at the bluff before Nale freaks out over his apparent failure and rushes the party out. No investigation, no search, just one cast of detection magic each and they're gone. Maybe Z could have advised further investigation, but surely Malack has no interest in playing the role of advisor here.


    Team Evil, on the other hand, actually has the gate coordinates and the OotS is rather certain of that fact: Girard's illusion confirms Serini knows them, and the OotS knows Xykon is getting gate info from her diary.
    Ok, then Xykon find the gate, but needs to fight Tarquin and his whole army, who were near at the time he came.

    But... Even with de coordinates, I think Xykon would get tricked by the double bluff, and we know he is not patient.
    Redcloak: Sir, the cordinates mark this place, the gate should be here.
    Xykon: oh, you think? Or maybe you want to create another goblin town here?... No, lets look another place.
    R: but Sir...
    X: zip it!

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Ummm, I don't think I'm the one forgetting things here.

    Do you remember we covered the "they've done it before" point a page or so back? You came up with the analogy of someone who'd vandalised a car before being somewhere in the vicinity of a car factory with a nice car inside. You then mentioned preventative detention was a thing in your country, but weren't sure exactly when it applied.



    I think where we get to is that a person has vandalised a car before and is somewhere near a car factory, and is overheard to say they wont approach the factory because someone might see them, is not a reason to capture them. The guard who knew they were there would not be negligent.


    Well, V said it was the right call based on what Roy knew. Thor didn't even ask Durkon about it, so I don't think they have to convince him. And it looks like they've probably defeated Serini, so they don't need to convince her of anything.

    In saying that, I think they might well convince Serini - her role in the story going forward may working for the Order, similar to Minrah.
    1- Man, again, forget about the car analogy and think about another analogy which is more accurate to the case: If someone have detonated a nuclear bomb before, of course he will get arrested if come near to a nuclear bomb factory.

    The "they have done it before" is totally covered yes, and gives the right to Serini.

    2- The "right call" thing about destruction of Girards gate, with the information that Roy had at the time, is still debatable. But with the whole information it is totally wrong, and that's why i said that if Roy couod change the past he would do something else... I mean, I doubt very much that something is the "right call" when 3 infernals want it. I think we agree on infernals being totally evil, isn't it?

    They don't need to convince Serini? Well, tecnically they dont, but that doesn't make them right, might is not right... And i don't really think the fight is over. Lets see.

    I am still seeing a "flashforward" where the order get the gate destroyed, and Serini saying "I knew it...". Then something happens that save the day, with great sacrifice. I can't stop thinking that.
    Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-10-03 at 06:28 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Ok, then Xykon find the gate, but needs to fight Tarquin and his whole army, who were near at the time he came.

    But... Even with de coordinates, I think Xykon would get tricked by the double bluff, and we know he is not patient.
    Redcloak: Sir, the cordinates mark this place, the gate should be here.
    Xykon: oh, you think? Or maybe you want to create another goblin town here?... No, lets look another place.
    R: but Sir...
    X: zip it!
    If Xykon saw the bluffed and hidden gate, I am certain he would have blasted something with magic. He is the “when in doubt, blast something with magic” type of guy.
    He might ending up destroying the gate, but I don’t see him just walking away.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    1- Man, again, forget about the car analogy and think about another analogy which is more accurate to the case: If someone have detonated a nuclear bomb before, of course he will get arrested if come near to a nuclear bomb factory.

    The "they have done it before" is totally covered yes, and gives the right to Serini.
    The nuclear weapons analogy is better in terms of the scale of the catastrophe, yes. Someone else raised it a couple of pages back

    The starting point, is that a nuclear weapons facility would have a clearly fenced off and guarded perimeter. If a person had previously detonated a nuclear bomb, and were not wanted for that detonation, then they would not be arrested for being outside the perimeter. They would be if they had penetrated it. Indeed, they'd be arrested for being inside even if they had not previously detonated a bomb (that would be mostly irrelevant to their arrest).

    Serini hasn't set up the canyon that way. She hasn't walled it. For all intents you have not breached the perimeter until you go inside the doors to the caves. So no, just because someone has done something before does not give you the right to attack them.

    The key here is whether they've done something now (like breaking in), not what they've done in the past.

    2- The "right call" thing about destruction of Girards gate, with the information that Roy had at the time, is still debatable. But with the whole information it is totally wrong, and that's why i said that if Roy couod change the past he would do something else... I mean, I doubt very much that something is the "right call" when 3 infernals want it. I think we agree on infernals being totally evil, isn't it?
    I agree it is debatable whether Roy made the right call about Girard's gate with the information he had. But it is not debatable whether V said it was the right call - V did (and I think V was speaking for the author at the time).

    I agree, I think Roy probably would change it. I think what he did was reasonable on the basis of what he knew. But with what we know (and what he now knows) it was probably wrong.

    They don't need to convince Serini? Well, tecnically they dont, but that doesn't make them right, might is not right... And i don't really think the fight is over. Lets see.

    I am still seeing a "flashforward" where the order get the gate destroyed, and Serini saying "I knew it...". Then something happens that save the day, with great sacrifice. I can't stop thinking that.
    I'm not saying they were right. I'm saying that it doesn't really matter what Serini thinks anymore.

    I doubt your prediction of a flashforward will happen, but I guess we will see.
    Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-10-03 at 07:26 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Ok, then Xykon find the gate, but needs to fight Tarquin and his whole army, who were near at the time he came.

    But... Even with de coordinates, I think Xykon would get tricked by the double bluff, and we know he is not patient.
    Redcloak: Sir, the cordinates mark this place, the gate should be here.
    Xykon: oh, you think? Or maybe you want to create another goblin town here?... No, lets look another place.
    R: but Sir...
    X: zip it!
    You say that if Xykon, of all beings, would have a problem with the army, Legion or no Legion. The OotS managed it, and they were half dead and drained at that point. Heck, I think the army literally couldn't hurt him outside the big dinosaurs; DR 15/magic and bludgeoning isn't just for show.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Ok, then Xykon find the gate, but needs to fight Tarquin and his whole army, who were near at the time he came.

    But... Even with de coordinates, I think Xykon would get tricked by the double bluff, and we know he is not patient.
    Redcloak: Sir, the cordinates mark this place, the gate should be here.
    Xykon: oh, you think? Or maybe you want to create another goblin town here?... No, lets look another place.
    R: but Sir...
    X: zip it!
    It's not about how patient or impatient he is, it's that he's not a fool.

    If anything, I'd say that Xykon would look at that pillar, chuckle for a few moments, and go "who wants to bet that it's absolutely right here?"

    He only left so quickly because of two factors: He knew first-hand that Girard's Gate was destroyed (the explosion and rift being hard to miss), and MITD's interference. Without that definite proof that Girard's Gate was destroyed, he wouldn't leave the coordinates, if only because if one set of coordinates were false, so might the other, the ones that he'd be using for Kraagor's Gate. Already there, after all, might as well spend a while making sure... and blasting the whole place for good measure too.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    It might be true that your country has areas where nuclear are stockpiled, that are clearly demarked and fenced, and people are challenged on entry and warned not to proceed. If someone then penetrates those defenses somehow, they can be arrested.
    Yes, I was implying they are in fenced and guarded military facilities.

    Serini has established by covenant with Soon that the gate at the north pole is her domain and it is located in a extremely remote location. This is not something the paladins did by accident or ignorance.

    And (just to milk the analogy) staying technically outside the base and observing and reporting on the base is also enough to get one arrested.

    The north pole is not the factory in this analogy. A whole village of bugbears lives there.
    Yes, it's not the factory for the bugbears, but we're talking about the paladins. The paladins are obviously only there on gate business.

    Do you accept that the paladins are at the north pole because of the gate (tabling exactly what they intend to do about it)? And that this fact is obvious to all?

    I don't agree that the stick figure comic medium restricts the ability to convey the information. All that had to happen was to have O-Chul say "we have to get inside before Xykon does" instead of "let's not try any doors because Xykon might see us" before Serini captured them.
    All mediums restrict information.

    And its unfair to suggest this is a just one speech balloon fix. If we require evidence of justified true belief (in general) we're going to need to double or triple the word count of the comic.

    You could add that level of detail in if you want, but it doesn't change the outcomes out of each scenario.
    So just to be clear are you discussing Serini's decision or a decision made by a hypothetical third person with an audience viewpoint?

    Because if it's Serini's, that's the "detail" her entire decision hinges around!
    Excuses and explanations are different.

    Sometimes when there can be no excuses we must look the hardest for explanations.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by elros View Post
    If Xykon saw the bluffed and hidden gate, I am certain he would have blasted something with magic. He is the “when in doubt, blast something with magic” type of guy.
    He might ending up destroying the gate, but I don’t see him just walking away.
    Fair enough, but then he would get blasted by the gate explosion, and find himself and redcloak pretty low hp with Tarquin in front of them... World is saved XD

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    You say that if Xykon, of all beings, would have a problem with the army, Legion or no Legion. The OotS managed it, and they were half dead and drained at that point. Heck, I think the army literally couldn't hurt him outside the big dinosaurs; DR 15/magic and bludgeoning isn't just for show.
    The army not, but the Vector Legion can, they are higher level than the Order, and of course they would joined forces if some evil lich is threating their 3 countries, not just Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, but the whole team, with Malack still alive (he wouldn't die if the piramid was there) and Vamp Durkon, i mean, ir that team can do nothing vs Xykon, then the Order can do less than nothing.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraithfighter View Post
    It's not about how patient or impatient he is, it's that he's not a fool.

    If anything, I'd say that Xykon would look at that pillar, chuckle for a few moments, and go "who wants to bet that it's absolutely right here?"

    He only left so quickly because of two factors: He knew first-hand that Girard's Gate was destroyed (the explosion and rift being hard to miss), and MITD's interference. Without that definite proof that Girard's Gate was destroyed, he wouldn't leave the coordinates, if only because if one set of coordinates were false, so might the other, the ones that he'd be using for Kraagor's Gate. Already there, after all, might as well spend a while making sure... and blasting the whole place for good measure too.
    The coordinates doesn't mark the gate itself, only the "zone where the gate is, somewhere, you find it". You know, he is still looking for Kragors gate.

    At Girards gate, Xykon would look for another piramid.
    Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-10-04 at 12:06 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    Fair enough, but then he would get blasted by the gate explosion, and find himself and redcloak pretty low hp with Tarquin in front of them... World is saved XD
    The Gates don't blow up immediately once they get damaged. Even at Soon's Gate, Xykon had enough time to physically fly out of not merely the throne room, but also the entire blast radius with relative ease. I'm pretty sure they'd find those six seconds needed to port out of the pyramid just as easily.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The Gates don't blow up immediately once they get damaged. Even at Soon's Gate, Xykon had enough time to physically fly out of not merely the throne room, but also the entire blast radius with relative ease. I'm pretty sure they'd find those six seconds needed to port out of the pyramid just as easily.
    Xykon flee of the throne room when he saw Miko's intentions, then the gate did krakakoom. But in this case he would blast that pillar not knowing it had a gate inside, I dont think he would reacted that fast this time, cause he wouldn't know what was happening inmidietly.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vikenlugaid View Post
    The army not, but the Vector Legion can, they are higher level than the Order, and of course they would joined forces if some evil lich is threating their 3 countries, not just Tarquin, Miron and Laurin, but the whole team, with Malack still alive (he wouldn't die if the piramid was there) and Vamp Durkon, i mean, ir that team can do nothing vs Xykon, then the Order can do less than nothing.
    First of all, vamp Durkon doesn't count because either he's not part of the Legion(because he's not), or the events of BRItF happened and he's basically out of spells. Don't exactly see what he'd do.

    Also, we don't know if the Legion is still higher level than the Order(I estimate about CR 16~17ish for each Legion member), there was only three of them when Xykon 'ported in, Xykon's was going for Girard's Gate and not their empires directly, and you're still ignoring the fact that I specifically said the army; anything the Legion would be able to do with him would exclusively be, well by the Legion because foot soldiers literally can't even scratch him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The Gates don't blow up immediately once they get damaged. Even at Soon's Gate, Xykon had enough time to physically fly out of not merely the throne room, but also the entire blast radius with relative ease. I'm pretty sure they'd find those six seconds needed to port out of the pyramid just as easily.
    And that assumes he's stupid enough to blow up random stuff when there might be a Gate nearby. He's not that stupid, and he knows first-hand how devastating a Gatesplosion is.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    The Gates don't blow up immediately once they get damaged. Even at Soon's Gate, Xykon had enough time to physically fly out of not merely the throne room, but also the entire blast radius with relative ease. I'm pretty sure they'd find those six seconds needed to port out of the pyramid just as easily.
    IIRC, Soon's Sapphire wasn't the gate itself, but something that was reinforcing the gate, but I don't recall the reference. We can't use the Dungeon of Dorukan as an example since the explosion was started by the self-destruct mechanism.

    We do see, however, from the explosion of Girard's Gate (#0898) that from the point where the gate started destabilizing the Order had enough time to flee partway through the dungeon to take shelter within the memorial to Girard.
    Last edited by Hurkyl; 2021-10-04 at 12:30 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurkyl View Post
    IIRC, Soon's Sapphire wasn't the gate itself, but something that was reinforcing the gate, but I don't recall the reference. We can't use the Dungeon of Dorukan as an example since the explosion was started by the self-destruct mechanism.
    All Gates have a crystalline frame as a physical component. That's what the sapphire is.

    We do see, however, from the explosion of Girard's Gate (#0898) that from the point where the gate started destabilizing the Order had enough time to flee partway through the dungeon to the memorial to Girard.
    Case in point.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Girard's had a big crystal outer part, Soon's was a small sapphire, I don't have SoD and I don't recall a crystal component for Dorukan's but I might just be forgetting.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Girard's had a big crystal outer part, Soon's was a small sapphire, I don't have SoD and I don't recall a crystal component for Dorukan's but I might just be forgetting.
    It appears to be a lovely Ruby or some other variety of red gem.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I don't have SoD
    Eh, SoD is mostly black 'n' white anyway. But! Luckily enough, we have the Crayons of Time to tell us that Lirian's Gate was embedded in some yellow crystal.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    First of all, vamp Durkon doesn't count because either he's not part of the Legion(because he's not), or the events of BRItF happened and he's basically out of spells. Don't exactly see what he'd do.

    Also, we don't know if the Legion is still higher level than the Order(I estimate about CR 16~17ish for each Legion member), there was only three of them when Xykon 'ported in, Xykon's was going for Girard's Gate and not their empires directly, and you're still ignoring the fact that I specifically said the army; anything the Legion would be able to do with him would exclusively be, well by the Legion because foot soldiers literally can't even scratch him.
    I am ignoring the army because the army is mostly irrelevant, only as meatshields maybe. But the Legion, the whole (i don't think it took to much time to join the other two, they have at least two mages with teleports, and who know what other resources and magical items). There was four of them when xykon came. Vamp Durkon is still usefull, he is a vamp, he heals with negative energy which is one of the source of dmg of both Xykon and Redcloak, so is a pretty good meat shield at the very least. But still, the rest are really really powerful and have a ton of magic items. And, if Roy didn't destroy the gate, they would be there too, they could wait for the best moment to intervene when the two evil teams were weakened enough.
    I see a pretty good ambush there, at least not worse that the one that they were preparing before Serini's attack, and with one more gate standing in case that go wrong and they need to destroy it, a thing they cant do now.
    Or even better, just ally with the Legion to kill Xykon. The Legion can't do anything with the gate anyway. And Order + Legion should kill Xykon far easier than Order alone.
    Last edited by Vikenlugaid; 2021-10-04 at 06:43 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

    Wow, double sticky threads!

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