OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

But halflings don't even have shoes.

OK, having played a lot of hobbits and halflings over the years, I ought to have phrased that differently. Two servings of Mrs. Starmast's home made guacamole for you. (By the way, her home made guac is awesome!).

[The MunchKING]

But halflings don't even have shoes.

The ones that want magic boosts do!

[SpykeMH]

I like how all the dispells had different colors to show each effect being dispelled...everyone who was hit with one of Sunny's eyes has orange, Belkar who had Minrah's calm emotions has white as well, and Serini's invisibility is blue.

[Wraithfighter]

I'm wondering if Rich's alternate title for this final book is "Poor Communication Kills (Planets)", because... woof.

Serini... girl, look, you're well aware of the dangers of Xykon, obviously. You're the defender of the final object preventing the destruction of the world. You're being contacted by ostensible do-gooders who, in their own noble efforts at thwarting the villain, have blundered into the destruction of 3 of those pillars in the past. Their attempts at contacting you are not stopping, and describe them getting closer to you. They clearly know various things about where its going, and their repeated messages are driving you up the wall...

...so why don't you tell them "**** off, everything's fine, you're just giving me a headache" or something? It's a wizard contacting you, you know what their Sense Motive checks are like, you could easily craft a lie that they could believe!

Then again, it is rather appropriate that, given the three gates that have fallen in this comic, all three at least partly fell because of Scribbles' insistence that they knew what was best (Dorukan creating a literal self-destruct button that could be easily activated, Soon holding firm to the decree that the gates must be protected at all costs, the ensuing genocidal war by the Paladins whose honor he so cherished creating an enemy that would sack his city, and Girard's secrecy and deceptions preventing reinforcements to protect the gate from knowing where to go), of course one of the final Gate's greatest flaws would end up being its own self-sworn guardian.

(oh, and before people comment about the above: Failure has many fathers. I do not place Dorukan, Soon or Girard as anywhere close to being the primary cause of the gates falling. But they sure did contribute to it)

[TheNecrocomicon]

Our records show that you have not signed up for an extended warranty on your gate. Press one to speak to a representative…

"Pour le service en français, veuillez appuyer le 'deux'."

[Psyren]

Yeah, I'm gonna say that murdering someone over a tone-deaf marriage proposal is a lot more objectionable than ignoring somebody's magical phone calls and then nonlethally removing them from your territory.

I never said I didn't object. But she got her You Suck speech too, and for something that had much less overall effect on the narrative than anything Serini is currently doing. Deflect to Hilgya all you want, she's not relevant here.

[Ruck]

I did not see Belkar's final line as at all sarcastic. Belkar was the one who felt like he'd been to see an efreet proctologist after all...

Neither did I. Didn't even think of the cited example, but sophisticated halfling palates call for fine food, and at some point, you eat enough fine food and/or get old enough, you're going to have to learn how to deal with it on the other end.

[elros]

I'm wondering if Rich's alternate title for this final book is "Poor Communication Kills (Planets)", because... woof.

Serini... girl, look, you're well aware of the dangers of Xykon, obviously. You're the defender of the final object preventing the destruction of the world. You're being contacted by ostensible do-gooders who, in their own noble efforts at thwarting the villain, have blundered into the destruction of 3 of those pillars in the past. Their attempts at contacting you are not stopping, and describe them getting closer to you. They clearly know various things about where its going, and their repeated messages are driving you up the wall...

...so why don't you tell them "**** off, everything's fine, you're just giving me a headache" or something? It's a wizard contacting you, you know what their Sense Motive checks are like, you could easily craft a lie that they could believe!

Then again, it is rather appropriate that, given the three gates that have fallen in this comic, all three at least partly fell because of Scribbles' insistence that they knew what was best (Dorukan creating a literal self-destruct button that could be easily activated, Soon holding firm to the decree that the gates must be protected at all costs, the ensuing genocidal war by the Paladins whose honor he so cherished creating an enemy that would sack his city, and Girard's secrecy and deceptions preventing reinforcements to protect the gate from knowing where to go), of course one of the final Gate's greatest flaws would end up being its own self-sworn guardian.

(oh, and before people comment about the above: Failure has many fathers. I do not place Dorukan, Soon or Girard as anywhere close to being the primary cause of the gates falling. But they sure did contribute to it)

There has been a lot of “what does Serini actually know, versus what we the readers know” when people judge Serini. I am going to base my decision on the following:
The OOTS destroyed Durokon’s gate for lutz, which directly lead to Xykon hunting Serini down, nearly killing her until she was saved by turning her into a half-troll, which also disfigured her and ended her adventuring career. Also, Durokon’s defense was good enough to stop Xykon from taking over the gate, because Team Evil was not able to get past its protective ward despite being there for a long time.
The OOTS then joined forces with the paladins, and another gate was destroyed, even though Soon’s defense was good enough to stop Xykon. Actually, Soon was about to destroy Xykon, which would have ended Team Evil for good and saved the World.
V murders the entire Drakentooth family (and countless others), and then OOTS goes past their defenses and destroys the gate. If not for V, the gate would have had full defenses, and Girard’s family may have been able to stop Team Evil (but we will never know for sure).
Now the OOTS is coming to the final gate and asking to work with Serini. Given how well that worked before, she is reluctant to work with them.
The facts show that that the Order of the Scribble had defenses that were powerful enough to prevent Team Evil from using the ritual on two gates (Durokon’s & Soon’s), and possibly a third (Girard’s), so it is reasonable for Serini to continue to trust her defenses, which have been working for weeks.

It is possible that after Serini was nearly killed and received the warning that Girard’s message in the desert was triggered, and after receiving multiple V’s sendings, that she used magical and other means to learn all of the above facts. Given all that, I don’t think Serini is wrong at all, big or little W, for wanting nothing to do with the OOTS or the paladins.
And I think it is kind for Serini to merely use an amnesia potion to stop people who destroyed three gates, prevented the destruction of Xykon, murdered Girard’s entire family, and failed to stop a lich that she has already keeping at bay. Even a neutral character would be justified to use lethal force to stop a group whose incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

[danielxcutter]

I do presume everyone agrees on the fact that her premise is entirely overturned by the Plan, right?

[Ruck]

The OOTS destroyed Durokon’s gate for lutz, which directly lead to Xykon hunting Serini down, nearly killing her until she was saved by turning her into a half-troll, which also disfigured her and ended her adventuring career.

This is the only part I'm not sure of - I was under the impression that Xykon had to find Serini's diary to locate the other four Gates, which would place that before Dorukan's Gate. (And I remember for sure that after the events of Dorukan's dungeon, Xykon had to retake his old tower where he already had the diary.)

I do presume everyone agrees on the fact that her premise is entirely overturned by the Plan, right?

I would say so, particularly the aspect where the gods are already on the brink of destroying the world, and likely would do it to avoid the Dark One getting any kind of control over the Snarl. Plus, there's no way that she knows that Durkon's mission is to try to negotiate with Redcloak to bring about a more permanent solution to the rifts.

[hungrycrow]

There has been a lot of “what does Serini actually know, versus what we the readers know” when people judge Serini. I am going to base my decision on the following:
The OOTS destroyed Durokon’s gate for lutz, which directly lead to Xykon hunting Serini down, nearly killing her until she was saved by turning her into a half-troll, which also disfigured her and ended her adventuring career.ping at bay.

This part is wrong. Xykon's body was destroyed by Dorukan's gate, and he refers to the diary while his body regrew. He must have attacked Serini before he took over Dorukan's dungeon. Stealing her diary after the attack is probably how he learned the locations of the other gates in the first place.

Edit:ninja'd

[RickDaily12]

I don't get Serini's "what the hell happened to your face?" Is there something wrong with Belkar's face, or is that just a weak rejoinder meaning "your face is ugly"?

Belkar's question was "You're a Halfing?? What the hell happened to your voice?"

She's retorting "I don't know, what the hell happened to your face?" in response because it should be immediately apparent upon looking at her face that she is no longer a normal halfing and that this was the question he should have asked instead.

[danielxcutter]

Belkar's question was "You're a Halfing?? What the hell happened to your voice?"

She's retorting "I don't know, what the hell happened to your face?" in response because it should be immediately apparent upon looking at her face that she is no longer a normal halfing and that this was the question he should have asked instead.

I just read that as a "no u" type of retort, except Belkar either didn't get it at all or was genuinely so surprised he didn't think to.

[Wraithfighter]

The facts show that that the Order of the Scribble had defenses that were powerful enough to prevent Team Evil from using the ritual on two gates (Durokon’s & Soon’s), and possibly a third (Girard’s), so it is reasonable for Serini to continue to trust her defenses, which have been working for weeks.

Exactly! If she has full and absolute confidence in her defenses, she shouldn't be ignoring the OOTS' messages, she should respond to one, use it to lead them into a trap, and then KO and Amnesia them! Rather than risk them blundering around outside, possibly letting the big bad villains in on the secret (you know, by giving Team Evil reason to go back into an already 'cleared' dungeon), anyway. That this has gone so well for her is frankly very fortunate.

And because Serini is refusing to talk to the OOTS, she's out of the loop on some key info about what the gods are up to right now, or Redcloak's plan. I get why she thinks she has all the answers, but the facts show that she's wrong to be so confident about that, Team Evil capturing the final gate is no different from it being destroyed to the gods, both are equally good justifications to nuke and pave. We don't know how much she knows about our heroes, sure, but there's something causing her actions beyond simple "I know everything and I got this" arrogance, because if she was acting this way just on those counts... she would be doing different things. There's something more to her and, well, her damage than just a nasty skin condition.

EDIT:

I just read that as a "no u" type of retort, except Belkar either didn't get it at all or was genuinely so surprised he didn't think to.

I read it more as Belkar not caring. Coming at him with an insult like that is like a Lv. 20 Paladin getting attacked by a non-classed kobold with a sharp stick.

[elros]

This part is wrong. Xykon's body was destroyed by Dorukan's gate, and he refers to the diary while his body regrew. He must have attacked Serini before he took over Dorukan's dungeon. Stealing her diary after the attack is probably how he learned the locations of the other gates in the first place.

Edit:ninja'd

My bad, you are right about that.

Regarding the gods destroying the World: if Darkon had not been turned into a vampire, Hel would not have had a cleric at the Godsmoot, and the vote would have been in favor of saving the World. Serini has no way to know that, but as a reader, it makes me wonder if the World would have been better off if the OOTS had never formed in the first place.
In my mind, it reminds me of Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Arc: his adventure makes a great story, but he actually made no difference in the outcome.

[Wraithfighter]

Regarding the gods destroying the World: if Darkon had not been turned into a vampire, Hel would not have had a cleric at the Godsmoot, and the vote would have been in favor of saving the World. Serini has no way to know that, but as a reader, it makes me wonder if the World would have been better off if the OOTS had never formed in the first place.

Except that one of the reasons why some of the gods have voted no is because, well, there's these heroes here actively trying to stop Xykon and Redcloak. If they're acting completely and utterly unopposed, a lot of those Good and Neutral gods would go "WELP, uh, sucks to be them, but time to cash out and hibernate for a while because it's that or risk the Dark One using the Snarl to slaughter us all!"

Like, Loki outright states that the very slim chance that the Snarl could be defeated is the only thing keeping him from agreeing to the "Nuke and Pave" option. Yes, some of that has to do with Loki wanting to support his daughter, but... he also wants Hel to survive to reach the next world, and the odds of that get lower and lower the longer this world spins on with her imbalanced diet continuing. And even if he cared not one whit about Hel, well, Selfish Loki has no reason to take that risk if Xykon and Redcloak have no serious opposition.

So, yeah, the OOTS have already saved the world in that regard, just via the extremely slim but narrow chance that some PC's going to be able to stop Team Evil.

[b0thari]

Belkar: Best. Punchline. Ever.

[Peelee]

Dang it. WHen they went to the vocab quiz I thought they were done. Guess I failed the SPot check on that one. Or maybe all those ranks in Knowledge (What the hell I'm talking about) were inadequate.

Knowledge (what the he I'm talking about) can be off Charisma instead of Intelligence and has amazing synergy with Bluff. I have made an incredibly fun build capitalizing on those two facts.

[RickDaily12]

I just read that as a "no u" type of retort, except Belkar either didn't get it at all or was genuinely so surprised he didn't think to.

I read it more as Belkar not caring. Coming at him with an insult like that is like a Lv. 20 Paladin getting attacked by a non-classed kobold with a sharp stick.

It's not a "no u" type of retort, it's the "you're asking the wrong question" type of retort. And Belkar acknowledges it immediately by saying "yeah, that was my next question."

Like really- Serini isn't just being a buffoonish crone; she sounds legitimately irritated when people miss blatantly apparent facts to her whenever things are being discussed.

Such as "Of course I know who you are, you've been cold-calling me for weeks", or "[of course I'm the halfling who runs this place], want a tweed cap?", or "yes, we were friends", or "I didn't brew this for just the two of you" and so on and so forth.

Whether she was always this way or whether it grew on her with old age is probably the more interesting question, but at the very least think it's clear that part of the reason she's apprehensive about this situation right this second is that she thinks all of the PCs who just showed up at her door are largely a group of idiots who lack both the power and wit to do anything about Xykon, and she's annoyed that they haven't gotten the hint yet.

[alceryes]

Serini has indoor plumbing and a commode!?

[Riftwolf]

In my mind, it reminds me of Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Arc: his adventure makes a great story, but he actually made no difference in the outcome.

Except if he hadn't been there, the Nazis wouldn't have found the Ark, and if they did, other Nazis would've retrieved it after the film instead of Warehouse 13, I mean the nondescript government storage facility.

[Skull the Troll]

Yeah, I'm gonna say that murdering someone over a tone-deaf marriage proposal is a lot more objectionable than ignoring somebody's magical phone calls and then nonlethally removing them from your territory.

As Hilgya pointed out out what she did was yes, murder, was easily fixable. She can fix what she did personally in 10 minutes. (didn't even seem to take that long in the comic, Durkon barely had time for a sentence) Ignoring someone who is try to help you save the world is going to be a lot worse, because the world might end. Really show that the Order has been try to talk to her makes her even MORE unsympathetic. She could have just told them "Hey don't come here, I'll fight you if you do" and then what she's doing now would be a lot more justifiable.

[JonahFalcon]

Serini has indoor plumbing and a commode!?

It isn't exactly the most out-there anachronism in the strip, and even in-universe the gnomes have a sewage treatment plant.

[Kilremgor]

That's a great comic!

However, being a rules nitpicker, I feel I should point out that there's a small mistake here. V obviously used an "Area Dispel" of the Dispel Magic spell, as several creatures were affected by a single casting.
However, the spell description for that option says:

"For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected."

So V could've only dispel one spell on each creature, although art clearly shows Belkar lost both the Fear spell-like effect from Sunny and Calm emotions effect from Minrah.

Also the status of previously applied spells, such as Overland flight on V or Telepathic bond on everybody remains a mystery, I think. No indication in art that the spells were dispelled, no evidence of the spells staying.

(Yes, of course Dispell Magic could work differently in this universe, I know)

That depends on interpretation, because Calm Emotions gets automatically removed on aggressive action versus affected creature:
"Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures." https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm
It could be argued that Dispel Magic is "aggressive".

[JonahFalcon]

That depends on interpretation, because Calm Emotions gets automatically removed on aggressive action versus affected creature:
"Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures." https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm
It could be argued that Dispel Magic is "aggressive".

Look at the lightning around Belkar. Both Calm Emotions and Fear were dispelled.

[Peelee]

In my mind, it reminds me of Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Arc: his adventure makes a great story, but he actually made no difference in the outcome.

Indy affected everything though?

Without Indy, Toht would have gotten the staff head from Marion, the Nazis dig in the right place, find and get the Ark, bring it back. To Hitler, and they march over the earth with it, presumably. Indy himself was the one who got them to open it, so we do not necessarily know Hitler would have done it. Also, even if he did, his advisors could potentially have also known how to survive as Indy did.

Dr. Jones drastically altered the entire plan.

[Fyraltari]

Indy himself was the one who got them to open it, so we do not necessarily know Hitler would have done it. Also, even if he did, his advisors could potentially have also known how to survive as Indy did.

Bellocq was the one who insisted they opened it and the fact that he had the whole priest suit implies it was always the plan.

Edit: I also find it unlikely that there would be a high-ranking Nazi with better knowledge of Jewish stuff than Bellocq because... Well... Nazi.

[JonahFalcon]

Bellocq was the one who insisted they opened it and the fact that he had the whole priest suit implies it was always the plan.

Edit: I also find it unlikely that there would be a high-ranking Nazi with better knowledge of Jewish stuff than Bellocq because... Well... Nazi.

{Scrubbed}

Oh, and his name is spelled "Belloq".

Update:

So, what's going on with Roy? Is Elan able to Neutralize Poison twice, or is it that pesky spell slot issue? Can healing spells remove sleep potion effects?

[Fyraltari]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

Oh, and his name is spelled "Belloq".

Silly me, Bellocq is a place.

Edit: this might get us into unauthorized waters, so, d you think it's safe to say that if they had a guy who knew more about the ark than Belloq, he'd be with the team trying to find it?

[pendell]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}


Silly me, Bellocq is a place.

Edit: this might get us into unauthorized waters, so, d you think it's safe to say that if they had a guy who knew more about the ark than Belloq, he'd be with the team trying to find it?

{Scrubbed}

Without Indy, Toht would have gotten the staff head from Marion, the Nazis dig in the right place, find and get the Ark, bring it back. To Hitler, and they march over the earth with it, presumably. Indy himself was the one who got them to open it, so we do not necessarily know Hitler would have done it. Also, even if he did, his advisors could potentially have also known how to survive as Indy did.

Or the Nazis get the ark, Belloq opens the ark before taking it to Berlin which was his plan all along, and his face melts. The ark remains in some hidden base somewhere until it's found again, sometime, somewhere, by someone.

That's the mistake both the protagonists and the antagonists make: They thought the Ark is a tool that anyone can use, like a drill or a gun. But that's not what the Ark is. The closest I can describe it in board-friendly terms is as an intelligent artifact, like Stormbringer. If whatever-it-is that makes the Ark more than just a pretty box doesn't like the wielder, it kills them and everyone standing around.

There's a scene where the Ark is encased in a box stamped with the Nazi logo; both writing and logo are burned off, a clear indication that messing with the ark is not healthy for Nazis and this will not end well for them. In the absolute best case, they realize it themselves and bury it in a warehouse same as the Americans eventually did. The Ark is not a power humans can use. Humans that meddle with it, die.

Respectfully,

Brian P.