OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

[Ionathus]

More to the point, Serini strikes me as someone who's not really good at assessing threat levels.

No argument there: she's attacking the heroes right now, after all.

I wonder what a Regenerate could do for Serini's complexion.

My guess is that it would interact weirdly or be redundant due to her trollblood fusion situation. Trolls are canonically the source for many regeneration items in D&D (i.e. this ring has the ichor of a troll encased inside it, etc.) so I wouldn't be surprised if her troll half resisted conventional regeneration magic.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think V using Familicide was planned by the IFCC. Their plan was, given enough power, V would kick the hornets nest and get Xykon searching for Girard's Gate rather than rearranging the furniture in a ruined city. The IFCC are reasonable tacitians, not unstoppable omniscient chessmasters.

Considering they gave V a splice with Familicide when V's immediate threat was a black dragon related close enough to the Draketooths, it might not have been a primary objective but it may very well have been a "just in case" thing.

Of course it's also possible that they just got super lucky.

Still hope that this entire fiasco with the Gates gives the IFCC a kick in the pants tbh; enough so that they're not any better than they were before if not outright causing them to break up or be destroyed.

[Riftwolf]

Considering they gave V a splice with Familicide when V's immediate threat was a black dragon related close enough to the Draketooths, it might not have been a primary objective but it may very well have been a "just in case" thing.

Of course it's also possible that they just got super lucky.

Still hope that this entire fiasco with the Gates gives the IFCC a kick in the pants tbh; enough so that they're not any better than they were before if not outright causing them to break up or be destroyed.

I feel like their shock at V using familicide, followed by their interaction with Tiamat, suggest the IFCC didn't expect familicide. They weren't in the presence of any outside agent that'd necessitate misdirection, so I doubt they will they were pretending to be surprised. I doubt that spell was the only epic necromancy spell Haerta knew either (though I can't recall what the limit is for wizards epic spells known) and anticipating V using a spell that unwittingly strips a Gate of most meaningful protection due to the target *just so happening* to be related to a Gates Protector is a bit of a stretch, especially how it got them in trouble with Tiamat. Also if familicide was a chess move by the IFCC it takes some of Vs culpability for using it away.

I prefer the idea that the IFCC, like everyone in the comic, is doing their best job based on the information they have and that information isn't omniscient. No one has the full overview of the world other than Rich. I agree that the IFCC shouldn't break-even on their plan, and I doubt they will (if nothing else, if their plans fail, their lower-downs will pull funding and protection from disgruntled Dragon deities).

[danielxcutter]

I feel like their shock at V using familicide, followed by their interaction with Tiamat, suggest the IFCC didn't expect familicide. They weren't in the presence of any outside agent that'd necessitate misdirection, so I doubt they will they were pretending to be surprised. I doubt that spell was the only epic necromancy spell Haerta knew either (though I can't recall what the limit is for wizards epic spells known) and anticipating V using a spell that unwittingly strips a Gate of most meaningful protection due to the target *just so happening* to be related to a Gates Protector is a bit of a stretch, especially how it got them in trouble with Tiamat. Also if familicide was a chess move by the IFCC it takes some of Vs culpability for using it away.

I prefer the idea that the IFCC, like everyone in the comic, is doing their best job based on the information they have and that information isn't omniscient. No one has the full overview of the world other than Rich. I agree that the IFCC shouldn't break-even on their plan, and I doubt they will (if nothing else, if their plans fail, their lower-downs will pull funding and protection from disgruntled Dragon deities).

I don't think Familicide was exactly planned for, more like "oh if this happens it'll help, but come on what are the odds of the elf going THAT far" and then precisely that happening.

[Psyren]

I can deal with the evil team once they're safely out of the picture.

One member of that team utterly curbstomped her earlier. And not only is he even stronger now, he has allies with him that are nearly as strong. Unless she has something truly massive up her sleeve, this train of thought is beyond delusional. And the longer she takes to spring her super-gambit (whatever it is), the stronger the evil team gets, thanks to her own defenses.

This is a fantasy setting, some hero will come along and kill the big baddie eventually.

Again, she is actively making Team Evil stronger, and thus prolonging the time it will take for this changing of the guard she believes is inevitable to occur. At some point, the math of long-term crushing oppression vs. an instant reset and reshuffle of the world's souls does shift.

For the record, Lirian wasn't quite as incompetent as implied; the Guardian Virus defense she had would have completely shut down Team Evil had the Mantle not conveniently bestow disease immunity and there just so happening to be the right ingredients for lichdom in there. Liches are extremely uncommon in OotS; we've canonically seen an epic spellcaster(probably the sorcerer though) not know they were immune to electricity.

Disease immunity is a lot more common than you think at high levels; Periapt of Health is right there in core for instance. I don't think she was incompetent either, but it was something she could have better planned for. She's high enough level that enemies can do recon on her from afar.

[BloodSquirrel]

I don't think V using Familicide was planned by the IFCC. Their plan was, given enough power, V would kick the hornets nest and get Xykon searching for Girard's Gate rather than rearranging the furniture in a ruined city. The IFCC are reasonable tacitians, not unstoppable omniscient chessmasters.

Their goal -explicitly stated- was to cause more conflict. This is directly counter to Serini's goal, which is to avoid direct conflict between Xykon and the Order. The exact course of events might not have been predictable, but it was exactly the sort of thing that they were hoping for. They proceeded to use Nale and his team as pawns for the same purpose, and then deliberately stepped in to prevent V from preventing the gate's destruction.

The important point here is that the defenses around Girard's gate were annihilated, that they were annihilated as a result of the deliberate actions of a party that was actively working toward that outcome, that said party is still acting toward an outcome that is at least as bad as destroying the world and has the power and resources to pull off similar plans to the ones that destroyed Girard's defenses, and that the Order's role in destroying the defenses (although not the gate itself) had nothing to do with their pursuit of the gate.

In other words, Serini is completely misattributing the real threat to the Order, when it was the IFCC which mostly directly manipulated events to ensure the gate's destruction.

[The MunchKING]

(though I can't recall what the limit is for wizards epic spells known)

(Ranks in Knowledge (Arcana),(Nature), or (Religion)) / 10 IIRC.

EDIT: Nope, that's Epic spell slots/day. As far as the SRD says, it looks like you can have as many as you have the time/money/XP to research.

[elros]

People are making good points, especially with the corrections for timelines.
I have one point that I won’t let go: the argument that since the defenses for the gates were not perfect, that the people who made those defenses (i.e. each member of the order of the Scribble) are responsible for their failure. Not a moron like Elan, a psycho like Miko, or a “good intentioned but completely wrong” Roy, all of whom chose to destroy the gates.
Everything that has ever been created can undone. If someone deliberately destroys something, they are the ones who bear responsibility for its destruction.
One related point: none of those characters was being controlled by IIFC or any other force. All of them had agency, and they chose to destroy the gates. That makes them less than ideal guardians for the last gate.

I also want to acknowledge the point that someone made earlier: if Serini had not intervened, the OOTS would have attacked Team Evil, which was a high risk move. If the OOTS lost (which was definitely possible), then Team Evil would know about the portal, and would have a path to the last gate.

[Liquor Box]

I also want to acknowledge the point that someone made earlier: if Serini had not intervened, the OOTS would have attacked Team Evil, which was a high risk move. If the OOTS lost (which was definitely possible), then Team Evil would know about the portal, and would have a path to the last gate.

This is, at the very least, an exageration. The Order attacking Xykon gives him none of those things. If they attacked by leaping out from behind the illusion screen then it might (depending on how they did it) have indicated to Team Evil that there was a portal or an illusion or something similar at play. If that happened Xykon would still have to figure out the illusion and find a way around it, then deal with any other defences the Gates might have. Of course, the Order might have attacked in a different way which didn't really even given that clue.

[Amarsir]

I'm probably late to the party on this. But I just realized there's a parallel between Serini not wanting to answer The Order's Sending and Roy not wanting Durkon to enter discussions with Redcloak. Both thinking the element of surprise is superior to trying to negotiate a better solution.

Probably right in Roy's case and wrong in Serini's, but both cutting off options based on incomplete information.

[Wraithfighter]

I don't think Dorukan's self destruct button was an oversight by him. I think he put it there deliberately so that the gate could be destroyed to prevent it falling into the wrong hands. So long as the others remain standing, his gate falling into the wrong hands was the bigger risk.

Aye, I'm not objecting to the existence of a self-destruct system on the gate, just that a self-destruct system that's so easy to activate was an oversight.

Just not something that the party idiot should be able to activate all on his own, ya know?

[Squire Doodad]

Aye, I'm not objecting to the existence of a self-destruct system on the gate, just that a self-destruct system that's so easy to activate was an oversight.

Just not something that the party idiot should be able to activate all on his own, ya know?

Plot twist: activating the self-destruct involves doing a 10 part tap-code as well as rolling two DC15 CHA checks in a row.
Elan just got really, really lucky.

[BloodSquirrel]

People are making good points, especially with the corrections for timelines.
I have one point that I won’t let go: the argument that since the defenses for the gates were not perfect, that the people who made those defenses (i.e. each member of the order of the Scribble) are responsible for their failure. Not a moron like Elan, a psycho like Miko, or a “good intentioned but completely wrong” Roy, all of whom chose to destroy the gates.

The entire point of putting defenses around something is to prevent someone who is evil, irresponsible, or otherwise acting contrary to your interests from messing with it. If your defenses don't work against a random moron wandering in and blowing up the gate then they're not defenses, they're a "Please don't touch" sign. If you're taking responsibility for one of the linchpins preventing your entire world from being destroyed then, yes, you do have a moral responsibility to make sure that it takes more than one psycho-fighter-without-bonus-feats to destroy it.

Also, your focus on who is responsible for the failure is fundamentally wrong-headed. The important part is that they failed, four times out of five, and trusting last gate's defenses to indefinitely protect it from Xykon is foolhardy. The fact that the gates defenses are not perfect means that- wait for it- they're not perfect. They have flaws that can be exploited and can eventually be overcome, especially by an epic-level lich with massive amounts of time on his hands. If the world gets blown up because Serini trusted her gate's defenses to stop Xykon, even after seeing them fail at every other gate, and actively prevented others from stopping him first, then she is absolutely responsible for that outcome.

[Liquor Box]

Aye, I'm not objecting to the existence of a self-destruct system on the gate, just that a self-destruct system that's so easy to activate was an oversight.

Just not something that the party idiot should be able to activate all on his own, ya know?

Well, I guess Dorukan's logic was that the area of the castle with the gate and self destruct was open only to him. So it shouldn't have been pressed by the party idiot unless it had fallen into the wrong hands.

[BloodSquirrel]

Aye, I'm not objecting to the existence of a self-destruct system on the gate, just that a self-destruct system that's so easy to activate was an oversight.

Just not something that the party idiot should be able to activate all on his own, ya know?

Part of the problem here is that the people who are work far too hard to place blame on the Order are ignoring two key facts:

1) The party idiot would never have been anywhere near the self-destruct if Xykon hadn't killed Dorukan, taken over his dungeon, and set up shop in the gate room.

2) The party idiot would never have been anywhere near the self-destruct if Xykon hadn't intentionally lured the heroes there because he needed someone of pure heart to touch the gate and deactivate its final defense.

Dorukan's self-destruct system wasn't that easy to activate. It was behind multiple layers of high-level defenses and guarded by an epic-level wizard. It was Xykon who defeated all of those defenses, killed Dorukan, and left the door wide open so that the party idiot could wander in and touch things.

[Wraithfighter]

Part of the problem here is that the people who are work far too hard to place blame on the Order are ignoring two key facts:

1) The party idiot would never have been anywhere near the self-destruct if Xykon hadn't killed Dorukan, taken over his dungeon, and set up shop in the gate room.

2) The party idiot would never have been anywhere near the self-destruct if Xykon hadn't intentionally lured the heroes there because he needed someone of pure heart to touch the gate and deactivate its final defense.

Dorukan's self-destruct system wasn't that easy to activate. It was behind multiple layers of high-level defenses and guarded by an epic-level wizard. It was Xykon who defeated all of those defenses, killed Dorukan, and left the door wide open so that the party idiot could wander in and touch things.

Hey, I'm just saying that your self-destruct rune destroying one of the pillars holding up the fabric of reality should, just maybe, have more safeguards on it than writing "don't ever touch this"! Just seems like a basic safety protocol thing, Dorukan had a lot of employees working for him, OSHA's gonna own his ass if he ever escape's Xykon's soul prison thingy! :D

[hungrycrow]

Hey, I'm just saying that your self-destruct rune destroying one of the pillars holding up the fabric of reality should, just maybe, have more safeguards on it than writing "don't ever touch this"! Just seems like a basic safety protocol thing, Dorukan had a lot of employees working for him, OSHA's gonna own his ass if he ever escape's Xykon's soul prison thingy! :D

Maybe like a codephrase or something? We know from Malack's Death Ward Mass spell that you can build that kind of thing into magic.

[Ruck]

This is, at the very least, an exageration. The Order attacking Xykon gives him none of those things. If they attacked by leaping out from behind the illusion screen then it might (depending on how they did it) have indicated to Team Evil that there was a portal or an illusion or something similar at play. If that happened Xykon would still have to figure out the illusion and find a way around it, then deal with any other defences the Gates might have. Of course, the Order might have attacked in a different way which didn't really even given that clue.

If? Are you intentionally ignoring what the Order's actual plan is in order to call Serini stupid?

[BloodSquirrel]

Hey, I'm just saying that your self-destruct rune destroying one of the pillars holding up the fabric of reality should, just maybe, have more safeguards on it than writing "don't ever touch this"! Just seems like a basic safety protocol thing, Dorukan had a lot of employees working for him, OSHA's gonna own his ass if he ever escape's Xykon's soul prison thingy! :D

The problem is that if you put too strong a safeguard on it, then someone might not be able to use it when they need to. As someone else said, keeping the entire gate room locked and preventing anyone from even being in the room was probably the first safeguard.

[Wraithfighter]

If? Are you intentionally ignoring what the Order's actual plan is in order to call Serini stupid?

That's honestly one reason why I think she should've responded to the Sendings, so that she could have more control over where the Order of the Stick went and prepare an Ambush that way. Their assault on the place has already led to Team Evil finding out that some doors with X's on them are still fully populated with monsters, and whether that's because of MITD's sabotage or Serini's design of the place, it's still damaged the security of this place because she kept quiet and let them bumble around outside.

[Peelee]

That's honestly one reason why I think she should've responded to the Sendings, so that she could have more control over where the Order of the Stick went and prepare an Ambush that way.

Where Serini wants the Order to prepare an ambush: Nowhere.
How Serini wants the ambush to go: Not at all.
Amount Serini currently wants to work with them in any capacity: Zero.

[Wraithfighter]

Where Serini wants the Order to prepare an ambush: Nowhere.
How Serini wants the ambush to go: Not at all.
Amount Serini currently wants to work with them in any capacity: Zero.

Amount that does to prevent the Order from getting involved anyway and needing to be dealt with: Nada.

She had two choices when the Sendings were peppering her: Not getting involved and risk them disrupting things on her doorstep as they sought to battle Team Evil, or get involved to steer things to a point where she can safely neutralize them without damaging her fortifications.

She did the former, and guess what, Team Evil learned something important about Kraagor's Gate that they otherwise wouldn't have found out for a long while, and thus she needs to deal with them before they can do further damage, like revealing the teleportation trap...

[Peelee]

Amount that does to prevent the Order from getting involved anyway and needing to be dealt with: Nada.

She had two choices when the Sendings were peppering her: Not getting involved and risk them disrupting things on her doorstep as they sought to battle Team Evil, or get involved to steer things to a point where she can safely neutralize them without damaging her fortifications.

She did the former, and guess what, Team Evil learned something important about Kraagor's Gate that they otherwise wouldn't have found out for a long while, and thus she needs to deal with them before they can do further damage, like revealing the teleportation trap...

It's almost as if she wanted to retain the element of surprise. I wonder if she would use that for some sort of ambush on the Order themselves...

Oh, right, that's exactly what she's doing.

You want Serini to do something that Serini does not want to do. This does not make Serini wrong. This simply makes Serini not you.

[BloodSquirrel]

It's almost as if she wanted to retain the element of surprise. I wonder if she would use that for some sort of ambush on the Order themselves...

I wonder if that would end with her being grappled and being in an even worse position to negotiate with the Order on account of having just attacked them.

[Wraithfighter]

It's almost as if she wanted to retain the element of surprise. I wonder if she would use that for some sort of ambush on the Order themselves...

Oh, right, that's exactly what she's doing.

You want Serini to do something that Serini does not want to do. This does not make Serini wrong. This simply makes Serini not you.

Well, yeah, that's why I said "I think" at the start of my first comment. I think that, knowing what we know about her aims and motives, she made the wrong decision in her reaction to the Sendings. Just my own personal read on the situation.

The gap in logic there might be just a difference in strategy, which I think is interesting grounds for discussion, or a sign that there's more to this than what we currently know about Serini's aims and motives (which I think is more likely). I do think she's been displaying much of the same arrogance in their abilities and beliefs that the rest of the Scribbles have done in the past, and like with them (to considerably varying degrees) its contributed to making the Gate less safe. Sure, it's some of that "well earned arrogance" you can see with high-level characters, but it does tend to blind one to other options that aren't all about how powerful or right you are.

Because it sure doesn't seem like Serini's asked the golden question here: "What if I'm wrong?"

She's acting like she knows best, her ways is superior, her actions are right, everyone else is just too dumb or stubborn to see anything else, to the point that she doesn't even bother trying to convince anyone else that her way is the right one. No point getting input from the captive Paladins, no communicating with do-gooders on their way to reinforce, no one's counsel but her own. Even if she were 100% right everywhere else, not interrogating that possibility is a mistake, especially with the stakes as high as they are.

[Peelee]

I wonder if that would end with her being grappled and being in an even worse position to negotiate with the Order on account of having just attacked them.

Yes, how silly of her to not foresee that with her powers of divination. Why, it's frankly embarrassing that any character ever does anything that turns out to not work perfectly in the entire strip!

[BloodSquirrel]

Yes, how silly of her to not foresee that with her powers of divination. Why, it's frankly embarrassing that any character ever does anything that turns out to not work perfectly in the entire strip!

Nah, we're running on a hard double-standard here. Serini's failures are completely understandable and due to things outside of her control (like ambushing the Order inside of her own dungeon) while the Order's failures are due to them being incompetent bunglers who were silly not to foresee the future with their powers of divination. I mean, those idiots didn't even think to try a Sending spell!

[Peelee]

Nah, we're running on a hard double-standard here. Serini's failures are completely understandable and due to things outside of her control (like ambushing the Order inside of her own dungeon) while the Order's failures are due to them being incompetent bunglers who were silly not to foresee the future with their powers of divination. I mean, those idiots didn't even think to try a Sending spell!

We are, but not the way you think. Serini is not allowed to do anything except the most optimal actions for the Order and if anything turns out in any way other than exactly as she planned then she was objectively wrong. Meanwhile, the Order's failures of destorying two Gates intentionally and solely to prevent Xykon from having them means they have the absolute right to have the guardian of the last Gate talk to them and give them every possible benefit of every possible doubt.

There is definitely a double standard here, I agree.

[Liquor Box]

If? Are you intentionally ignoring what the Order's actual plan is in order to call Serini stupid?

I used the word 'if' to acknowledge it was possible they might have carried out their plan. Or they might not have. Given developments, I think they wont.

If they had carried out that plan it's not clear whether they would have ambushed Xykon by leaping out from behind the illusion as he passed (which would probably give away the illusion), or ambushed him by exiting the illusion after he passed and then leapt upon him after he left the dungeon (which might give a clue, but not necessarily the defence).

As to Serini - I don't think I have ever called her stupid. And anyway, as far as we are aware, Serini did not know what the Order's plans were, so those plans cannot have had any bearing on her cleverness or stupidity.

Where Serini wants the Order to prepare an ambush: Nowhere.
How Serini wants the ambush to go: Not at all.
Amount Serini currently wants to work with them in any capacity: Zero.

Amount of control Serini has over whether or how the Order does an ambush: none
Amount of influence she could have gained by talking to them: perhaps some

It's almost as if she wanted to retain the element of surprise. I wonder if she would use that for some sort of ambush on the Order themselves...

Oh, right, that's exactly what she's doing.

You want Serini to do something that Serini does not want to do. This does not make Serini wrong. This simply makes Serini not you.

What element of surprise do you think she used in the attack which she would have lost by engaging with the Order's sending. Hayley knew it was "an obvious deathtrap" before following anyway. What extra precautions might they have taken knowing that a Serini (who they think will be an ally, or maybe neutral if she tells them to piss off in a sending) was there?

We are, but not the way you think. Serini is not allowed to do anything except the most optimal actions for the Order and if anything turns out in any way other than exactly as she planned then she was objectively wrong. Meanwhile, the Order's failures of destorying two Gates intentionally and solely to prevent Xykon from having them means they have the absolute right to have the guardian of the last Gate talk to them and give them every possible benefit of every possible doubt.

There is definitely a double standard here, I agree.

That's demonstrably not true.

I challenge you to ask a single person who has been arguing that Serini's actions are not optimal if they think it was the optimal choice for Elan to destroy the first gate. Everyone is willing to admit that the Order sometimes (perhaps often) made poor decisions. It's just that when people point out that Serini has made poor decisions here, it raises hackles.

[BloodSquirrel]

We are, but not the way you think. Serini is not allowed to do anything except the most optimal actions for the Order and if anything turns out in any way other than exactly as she planned then she was objectively wrong. Meanwhile, the Order's failures of destorying two Gates intentionally and solely to prevent Xykon from having them means they have the absolute right to have the guardian of the last Gate talk to them and give them every possible benefit of every possible doubt.

There is definitely a double standard here, I agree.

This is ridiculous strawman. Nobody is talking about what the Order has a "right" to, we're talking about how Serini not engaging with them is backfiring on her. The only thing that has actually gone her way so far is that she successfully ambushed the Paladins. Other than that, everything is going wrong for her. Team Evil has been potentially clued in regarding funny business with the doors, she lost the fight she just started, and she's lost any leverage or credibility she might have had as the guardian of the gate that could have been used to convince anyone to do things her way.

And the cherry on top her is that she is objectively wrong. We know for a fact that her plans are based on false assumptions. There is zero chance that the narrative is going wind up validating her strategy because we've already been told that things can't go that way. Where, exactly, are you planning on taking this argument when the comic doesn't end with the Order leaving followed by a page of text that says "And eventually Xykon got bored and also left, and thus the world was saved!"? I'm serious here: what parts of Serini's plan could possibly be about to succeed?

You're backing yourself into an increasingly extreme position and characterization of events. That is not a sign that you are convincing anyone, especially yourself, that your arguments are valid.