OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

[hungrycrow]

The Oracle would have to be pretty exhaustive to include both the fact that O'chul decided to destroy the gate, and that his sword was used to do it.

I think it's most likely that Serini either viewed the event or O'chul telling Hinjo about the event herself. A secondhand account would likely have left out those details.

[elros]

I'm on record as saying that I think it will take more than one good calling out to make Serini change her mind.

I'm going to frame this less as a prediction and more as a description of the most conventional (but well-written) path for the story to take from here:

Serini and the Order will have an argument. This argument will have three key moments: The moment when Serini, after hearing the Order's arguments, decides to reject them and thus locks herself into her current worldview, the moment when the Godsmoot and The Plan are revealed to her, decisively demonstrating that her calculations were flawed, and the moment when (having already dug her heels in too deeply to give in now) pulls a Redcloak and decides that they're lying or something.

Serini will eventually take some action to interfere with the Order's attack on Xykon, leading to a catastrophic result, such as Xykon or Redcloak finding the gate*. Serini, having hit her lowest point, will have her "WHAT HAVE I DONE?" moment and do something that saves the Order/brings themr to the gate to fight Xykon before he takes it.

*I'm assuming here something else happens that ups the stakes, such as Xykon finding out that he's being betrayed and deciding to destroy the gate, or her seeing an undeniable sign that, yes, the gods are about to pull the trigger and blow up the world.

Of course, the overall story has so many moving parts at this point that it's hard to tell what will actually take priority. There are a ton of other shoes waiting to be dropped that Serini's character are is competing with here.

All that is well and good, but the OOTS better admit their failures, too. As in, “here is a everything we know about the gates and the plan, everything we have done that led to the destruction of the gates, and BTW our wizard is compromised because of a pact with demons/devils.” There is a good chance that Serini will have sympathy with Redcloak’s goals (she has suggested that much already), and she may decide not to go along with the OOTS’s approach to ambush Team Evil.

And I know this is the internet, but there are many posts that “Serini is evil” and “Serini is a moron,” and we don’t even know what other defenses she has set up, or what else she knows. I don’t think they are the “order of the devil,” but OMG they have screwed up enough not to be trusted!

One other thought: the more I think about it, the OOTS had a low chance of success in their ambush against Team Evil. The moment the fight starts, V would get pulled to the lower planes, leaving the order without their arcane magical support, and I would not bet the fate of the World on the remaining members winning that fight. Serini’s intervention probably saved the OOTS from completely screwing up.

[danielxcutter]

Or a being or group of beings with strong enough scrying to punch through the defenses of the throne room, that Serini believes is an accurate source of information but actually has their own agenda may have left out the context.

I mean, it's the most likely that she just used a crystal ball just when O-Chul was debriefing the others and she just saw that part, but I wouldn't write off the IFCC having their fingers in this pie somehow.

[danielxcutter]

Monsters typically aren't too divorced from standard tactics to make adventurer parties an active liability, and action economy is really important in D&D.

I mean, Serini is a retired adventurer; saying that adventurer parties can't work with monsters at all is simply not true.

[Hurkyl]

Monsters typically aren't too divorced from standard tactics to make adventurer parties an active liability, and action economy is really important in D&D.

I mean, Serini is a retired adventurer; saying that adventurer parties can't work with monsters at all is simply not true.

(I had posted that post you're replying to in the wrong thread and have deleted it and posted it to the "Serini is a moron" thread where it was intended)

[BloodSquirrel]

All that is well and good, but the OOTS better admit their failures, too.

That's been what, like, 90% of this entire comic has been about. Elan just had a moment where he admitted that he used to do things "for the lulz", and that it was wrong and counterproductive. We had an entire trial scene, early in the comic, where they were taken to task for blowing up the gate (even if it was rigged to give a favorable verdict in the end). V had a mental breakdown after realizing what her familicide had done.

And I know this is the internet, but there are many posts that “Serini is evil” and “Serini is a moron,” and we don’t even know what other defenses she has set up, or what else she knows. I don’t think they are the “order of the devil,” but OMG they have screwed up enough not to be trusted!

They've also won a lot of battles against powerful opponents and literally stopped the gods from blowing up the world last book.

These kinds of comments are why it's obvious that you (and other posters) have backed yourself into a far more anti-Order position that can be explained by reasons other than "doubling down to try to win an argument". You've gotten so hyperbolic in your criticisms of the Order that I'm genuinely wondering how you think this comic is going to proceed, because you don't even seem to want to allow for the possibility that the Order might actually defeat Xykon.

[danielxcutter]

That's been what, like, 90% of this entire comic has been about. Elan just had a moment where he admitted that he used to do things "for the lulz", and that it was wrong and counterproductive. We had an entire trial scene, early in the comic, where they were taken to task for blowing up the gate (even if it was rigged to give a favorable verdict in the end). V had a mental breakdown after realizing what her familicide had done.

I mean that was arguably the entire point most of the Order's character arcs for the past 300 strips or so, maybe longer.

They've also won a lot of battles against powerful opponents and literally stopped the gods from blowing up the world last book.

These kinds of comments are why it's obvious that you (and other posters) have backed yourself into a far more anti-Order position that can be explained by reasons other than "doubling down to try to win an argument". You've gotten so hyperbolic in your criticisms of the Order that I'm genuinely wondering how you think this comic is going to proceed, because you don't even seem to want to allow for the possibility that the Order might actually defeat Xykon.

There's a simpler reason; "Serini has to be badass because she's epic level."

[Hurkyl]

That's been what, like, 90% of this entire comic has been about. Elan just had a moment where he admitted that he used to do things "for the lulz", and that it was wrong and counterproductive. We had an entire trial scene, early in the comic, where they were taken to task for blowing up the gate (even if it was rigged to give a favorable verdict in the end). V had a mental breakdown after realizing what her familicide had done.

Yep. So why would we expect the comic to change course now? The narrative has set forth criticisms of the protagonist faction, it would be very strange if they were left hanging. It might even be the story hook for them to have a whole speech where they acknowledge they've screwed up in the past but demonstrate how they've learned from their mistakes and become better people.

I'm pretty sure it's not going to go quite like that and there's still more growth to do, but whatever.

They've also won a lot of battles against powerful opponents and literally stopped the gods from blowing up the world last book.

These kinds of comments are why it's obvious that you (and other posters) have backed yourself into a far more anti-Order position that can be explained by reasons other than "doubling down to try to win an argument". You've gotten so hyperbolic in your criticisms of the Order that I'm genuinely wondering how you think this comic is going to proceed, because you don't even seem to want to allow for the possibility that the Order might actually defeat Xykon.

Two things can be true at the same time. It's quite possible for someone to both recognize there are valid reasons to find the Order untrustworthy and to expect them to win in the end? Heck, those two notions are barely even related.

[BloodSquirrel]

There's a simpler reason; "Serini has to be badass because she's epic level."

That doesn't really justify characterizing the Order has a bunch of hapless lunatics this late in the comic. It's not like we haven't seen epic level characters (especially Scribblers) be wrong about anything before.

[BloodSquirrel]

Yep. So why would we expect the comic to change course now?

I would expect the comic not to beat a dead horse. They've already dealt with their early-strip problems of being thoughtless and uncoordinated, and they don't have that much outstanding baggage left to sort through. I would expect the rest of the comic to deal with the specific issues we have remaining, such as Belkar's character arc and the goblinoid problem.

Two things can be true at the same time. It's quite possible for someone to both recognize there are valid reasons to find the Order untrustworthy and to expect them to win in the end? Heck, those two notions are barely even related.

Sorry, but I don't see how "The Order couldn't possibly be of any use to Serini" and "The Order will win in the end" are compatible. If anyone wants to take a more nuanced position than "The Order are useless, dangerous idiots" then they need to start watching what they post, because they're letting themselves make the mistake of thinking that taking a harder line makes their argument stronger. Especially when they let the fig leaf of "according to what Serini knows" blow away in the wind.

The truth is that, yes, we can trust the Order. They aren't perfect, but neither is anyone else, especially in this comic. Everyone screws up sometimes. Serini has just screwed up big time herself with a failed ambush. The Scribblers couldn't keep their **** together well enough to cooperate to protect the gates. There's nobody around that could possibly stop Xykon who hasn't screwed up at some point. But the Order has been learning their lessons and is proceeding, at this point, with as much caution as they can given the circumstances. They know more than anyone else, including possibly the gods, and fully appreciate the stakes involved. Better, in fact, that Serini does.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's not like we haven't seen epic level characters (especially Scribblers) be wrong about anything before.

Without the flaws and mistakes of the Scribblers, there's no story.

Serini and the Order will have an argument. This argument will have three key moments: The moment when Serini, after hearing the Order's arguments, decides to reject them and thus locks herself into her current worldview, the moment when the Godsmoot and The Plan are revealed to her, decisively demonstrating that her calculations were flawed, and the moment when (having already dug her heels in too deeply to give in now) pulls a Redcloak and decides that they're lying or something.

Serini will eventually take some action to interfere with the Order's attack on Xykon, leading to a catastrophic result, such as Xykon or Redcloak finding the gate*. Serini, having hit her lowest point, will have her "WHAT HAVE I DONE?" moment and do something that saves the Order/brings them to the gate to fight Xykon before he takes it.

Halfling on the River Kwai: I like it. But it also means (if we take that narrative element to its logical conclusion) that Serini dies, and I think that is her final result - we'll see on screen the death of the last living Scribbler - but Her Sacrifice Will Not Be In Vain (see Kraagor's statue and its inscription ...) (With that said, and her being half troll now, maybe her death will be mitigated by a slow but sure regeneration thanks to her troll blood?)

And of course, the IFCC figures into this somehow.

[BloodSquirrel]

Without the flaws and mistakes of the Scribblers, there's no story.

That's probably why the comic is so full of screw-ups. It does not, however, justify holding the Order to a different standard than everyone else.

Halfling on the River Kwai: I like it. But it also means (if we take that narrative element to its logical conclusion) that Serini dies, and I think that is her final result - we'll see on screen the death of the last living Scribbler - but Her Sacrifice Will Not Be In Vain (see Kraagor's statue and its inscription ...) (With that said, and her being half troll now, maybe her death will be mitigated by a slow but sure regeneration thanks to her troll blood?)

I don't think Serini dying is a necessary conclusion. Her main failures haven't been moral ones; she hasn't tried to kill anyone, she hasn't shown any desire to punish anyone or see them suffer, and she isn't working toward some kind of extremist outcome.

OOtS doesn't really seem too interested in the "redeemed in death" trope. It's the characters who refuse to change their ways that die (permanently), not the ones who admit their mistakes and become better people for it. Miko refused to admit that she might have screwed up, and so she died screwing up even bigger. Kubota's monologue about he was going to keep being evil was what got him V'd. Nale died because he couldn't stop being such an immature little brat. Bozzak... Crystal...

Actually, isn't there a quote from the Giant about that? I might have to go look.

[Hurkyl]

I would expect the comic not to beat a dead horse. They've already dealt with their early-strip problems of being thoughtless and uncoordinated, and they don't have that much outstanding baggage left to sort through. I would expect the rest of the comic to deal with the specific issues we have remaining, such as Belkar's character arc and the goblinoid problem.

They already raised the whip in Serini's exchange with the paladins.

And it's not a dead horse; the "weakening the fabric of reality" charge never went anywhere last time. Not only had the Order acted unknowingly in Dorukan's Dungeon, the whole thing was invalidated by the reveal the trial was a farce. This time, it's not a farce, and both O-Chul and the Order are guilty with full knowledge of what they were doing. As best I recall, sitting in Kraagor's Tomb is the first time they've ever really acknowledged their carelessness, but they definitely haven't learned from their mistake yet.

Sorry, but I don't see how "The Order couldn't possibly be of any use to Serini" and "The Order will win in the end" are compatible.

Okay, but what does that have to do with what I said?

Also, one way those positions are compatible is if victory comes after Serini's out of the picture.

The truth is that, yes, we can trust the Order.

They've already demonstrated they can't be trusted with their commitment not to mess up the gate defenses. And we very pointedly can't trust Vaarsuvius to take action when we need V to do so.

Some things they can be trusted with, sure. But there are relevant things for which they are much less trustworthy.

[danielxcutter]

Not really; that was more about deaths of named characters being a result of their own decisions - not necessarily because of a flaw or a drawback, but as a result of what they chose to do.

[BloodSquirrel]

Okay, but what does that have to do with what I said?

I mean... go re-read the whole rest of your post.

This time, it's not a farce, and both O-Chul and the Order are guilty with full knowledge of what they were doing.

They've already demonstrated they can't be trusted with their commitment not to mess up the gate defenses.

These are not characterizations of the Order that one would make if they expected the Order to defeat the villain and save the world in any other way than comedic accident.

The hyperbole does not make your argument stronger. If your argument require the Order to be that dangerous in order to be true, and we know from basic narrative convention that the Order is going to save the world, then either your arguments have to false or you have to put yourself in the position of saying that the comic is wrong about its own characters.

[Dion]

we know from basic narrative convention that the Order is going to save the world…

I don’t know this.

[Yirggzmb]

And the Oracle actually got to have fun at their expense in sufficient exchange for those consequences. I bet the oracle enjoyed pulling that trick on Belkar far, far more than he disliked getting killed.

Getting one up on Team Evil and being able to continue in the manner he's accustomed is a somewhat more daunting proposition.

Also, don't we have a strip where the Oracle is specifically shown pretending not to be home when Xykon comes calling? I can't remember the strip number off hand, but I'm like 90% sure it was a thing.

[danielxcutter]

I don’t know this.

Like... that's kind of the general expectation for works of this tone. This isn't WH40K. And I don't think the message Rich wants to send is one that would require the Order to fail.

[elros]

Two things can be true at the same time. It's quite possible for someone to both recognize there are valid reasons to find the Order untrustworthy and to expect them to win in the end? Heck, those two notions are barely even related.

That is exactly my point!
I enjoyed reading Serini scold the paladins because she was pointing out that she has good reasons not to trust them. O-Chul is my favorite character in this comic (followed by Roy and Sigdi), and we all know that he will be part of the final victory, but as Serini pointed that in strips #1128 & 129, she doesn’t trust him to defend the final gate.

And O-Chul deserves less criticism than some members of OOTS! Yes, the OOTS has grown as a party and as individuals, but that does not mean that their past actions can be immediately forgiven by all. V feeling bad about fratricide does absolutely nothing for the countless people that were murdered. Elan admitting that he acts immaturely does not restore the destroyed gate. Saying “oh, I feel bad that I did something wrong” does not mean everyone should immediately trust them.

And if someone decides not to trust the OOTS, that does not make them evil or a moron.

And for the record, I still believe that Serini’s intervention to stop the ambush prevented the OOTS from losing to Team Evil, and was a good call. After all, as Serini said in #1128, if the OOTS cannot defeat her, they have no chance against Xykon.

[BloodSquirrel]

I don’t know this.

If you're going to take that position, then fine, but that just brings me back to the original question:

What do you expect to happen?

[BloodSquirrel]

Also, don't we have a strip where the Oracle is specifically shown pretending not to be home when Xykon comes calling? I can't remember the strip number off hand, but I'm like 90% sure it was a thing.

I think it was in SoD, because it was when Xykon was looking for a gate before he found Serini's diary.

[danielxcutter]

I think it was in SoD, because it was when Xykon was looking for a gate before he found Serini's diary.

There was a joke panel when the ABD was talking to V where the Oracle was closed and Xykon was standing there saying "Rats." Something like that.

[BloodSquirrel]

And O-Chul deserves less criticism than some members of OOTS! Yes, the OOTS has grown as a party and as individuals, but that does not mean that their past actions can be immediately forgiven by all. V feeling bad about fratricide does absolutely nothing for the countless people that were murdered. Elan admitting that he acts immaturely does not restore the destroyed gate. Saying “oh, I feel bad that I did something wrong” does not mean everyone should immediately trust them.

Trust and forgiveness are not the same thing. How long you decide to hold a grudge has little relevance to the objective question of whether the person will act different in the future. There really isn't any chance that Elan will blow up the last gate because lol, even if you go to your grave still angry at him for destroying the first one. V feeling bad may not mean anything to V's victims, but it does have material relevance to the question of "Would V use familicide again?"

The strangest part about his line of reasoning is that Serini is willing to trust Xykon with the gate, and Xykon deserves forgiveness for his evil deeds less than anyone. Then again, as I said before, the fig leaf of "From Serini's point of view" blew away a long time ago.

[Psyren]

Also, don't we have a strip where the Oracle is specifically shown pretending not to be home when Xykon comes calling? I can't remember the strip number off hand, but I'm like 90% sure it was a thing.

I think it was in SoD, because it was when Xykon was looking for a gate before he found Serini's diary.

There was a joke panel when the ABD was talking to V where the Oracle was closed and Xykon was standing there saying "Rats." Something like that.

It's in the main strip. And judging by the timing of that panel, I put it as occurring during Xykon's mysterious errand, which Jirix later called him back from. Perhaps he only went to get help locating his phylactery, or more recon on the remaining gates, or some other reason.

[Dion]

If you're going to take that position, then fine, but that just brings me back to the original question:

What do you expect to happen?

In universe, I expect a lot of different parties with a lot of different viewpoints, knowledge, abilities, and goals to compete with each other, and to do so in a reasonably plausible way.

Out of universe, I also expect the world won’t be destroyed, and I imagine the OotS will make meaningful contributions that.

I don’t expect *anyone* in universe to share my out of universe expectations.

Serini, for example, is totally justified in universe in correctly recognizing that the OotS is a bunch of bumbling dunce waffles who are far more likely to destroy the world than save it.

She does not have any reason to expect that they’re going to save the world. She does not read the comic.

[bunsen_h]

I don’t know this.

If by this you mean that it may be someone else that saves the world, Rich mentioned in the commentary in a couple of the books that he had to arrange that nobody powerful joined their efforts long-term, so that the Order would have to be the heroes.

And for the record, I still believe that Serini’s intervention to stop the ambush prevented the OOTS from losing to Team Evil, and was a good call. After all, as Serini said in #1128, if the OOTS cannot defeat her, they have no chance against Xykon.

The real pattern is that the victims of well-constructed ambushes generally lose.

[danielxcutter]

In universe, I expect a lot of different parties with a lot of different viewpoints, knowledge, abilities, and goals to compete with each other, and to do so in a reasonably plausible way.

Out of universe, I also expect the world won’t be destroyed, and I imagine the OotS will make meaningful contributions that.

I don’t expect *anyone* in universe to share my out of universe expectations.

Serini, for example, is totally justified in universe in correctly recognizing that the OotS is a bunch of bumbling dunce waffles who are far more likely to destroy the world than save it.

She does not have any reason to expect that they’re going to save the world. She does not read the comic.

That wasn't his point at all. Hurkyl is in complete agreement with Serini (which we know is inaccurate; whether that's fair with what she knows is another kettle of fish), BloodSquirrel essentially pointed out this isn't 8-Bit Theater and it's likely from a meta perspective that the readers have every right to expect the Order to save the world, and then you said you don't know that.

Serini doesn't know or refuses to learn how competent and trustworthy the Order actually is, but we know that they're better than her expectations at least.

[BloodSquirrel]

In universe, I expect a lot of different parties with a lot of different viewpoints, knowledge, abilities, and goals to compete with each other, and to do so in a reasonably plausible way.

Out of universe, I also expect the world won’t be destroyed, and I imagine the OotS will make meaningful contributions that.

I don’t expect *anyone* in universe to share my out of universe expectations.

Serini, for example, is totally justified in universe in correctly recognizing that the OotS is a bunch of bumbling dunce waffles who are far more likely to destroy the world than save it.

She does not have any reason to expect that they’re going to save the world. She does not read the comic.

You're trying to have it both ways. Is the order actually that bumbling, or is Serini wrong? Do you expect them to save the world or not? Are their "meaningful contributions" going to be by accident? Is somebody going to make bigger, more important contributions than they are?

I'm driving at a specific point here: people are trying to justify Serini's view of the Order not just by arguing that she has limited information, but by actually portraying the Order as being as bad as she says they are. Serini does not think that they will "make meaningful contributions" to stopping Xykon. If she's wrong about that, then it comes down to the entirely different question of whether she should know better or not.

[Metastachydium]

Out of universe, I also expect the world won’t be destroyed, and I imagine the OotS will make meaningful contributions that.

I don’t expect *anyone* in universe to share my out of universe expectations.

Which is weird, since we do know there are people in the Stickverse that understand the narrative conventions that underpin some of the fundamental laws this universe conforms to. The more one knows about what the Order achieved (or failed to achieve), the easier it is to identify them as the main ensemble of the story.

[BloodSquirrel]

BloodSquirrel essentially pointed out this isn't 8-Bit Theater and it's likely from a meta perspective that the readers have every right to expect the Order to save the world.

Again: If someone wants to make the claim that this is 8-Bit Theater, or that we're going to get some other unconventional ending, then I'm game for hearing it. It's an honest, open question, but I want to know specifically what it is.