OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

[Dion]

Maybe the Oracle *IS* the Snarl!

Like, what if the snarl *wants* the PCs to do… whatever it is they’re going to do… and has pretended to be the Oracle, in order to manipulate the world to make it happen?

[hungrycrow]

Maybe the Oracle *IS* the Snarl!

Like, what if the snarl *wants* the PCs to do… whatever it is they’re going to do… and has pretended to be the Oracle, in order to manipulate the world to make it happen?

This can't be the case, because we already know the Snarl is Redcloak's niece.

[georgie_leech]

Maybe Red Cloak's Niece is actually The Giant.

[Doug Lampert]

This can't be the case, because we already know the Snarl is Redcloak's niece.

But the oracle is ALSO Redcloak's niece, so it all fits together.

[Ionathus]

Maybe the Oracle *IS* the Snarl!

Like, what if the snarl *wants* the PCs to do… whatever it is they’re going to do… and has pretended to be the Oracle, in order to manipulate the world to make it happen?

Spoiler: Matt Smith Doctor Who

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It's about as plausible as a hyperintelligent and powerful alien race subtly hypnotizing & manipulating humanity for tens of thousands of years because *checks notes* they needed a spacesuit for something.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Are Trolls mammals? If so, where are their nipples?

The baby troll bites through the tip of the breast to access the mammary tissue.

Regeneration prevents the wound from being an issue.

[Jasdoif]

The assumptions being made here are "total foreknowledge exists" and "decisions are made based on available foreknowledge", I suspect your problem is with the second one.

If we use watchmen as an example. Dr. Jonathan Osterman was someone who would prevent JFK's assassination if he knew how.

Dr. Jonathan Osterman become Dr. Manhattan and acquired Total Foreknowledge^TM.

Dr. Manhattan does not think. I do not mean that he thinks and reaches the foretold conclusion, I mean that he doesn't process information in the way that a human, an animal, or even a simple transistor does.

When the learns JFK is going to be assassinated, he doesn't decide if that's a good or bad thing, consider what can be done, and decide a course of action. Quantum magic just overwrites his brain to do nothing.

Don't think I'd call it a "problem"....I'm saying that if you have total foreknowledge (and perfect information, in case that isn't in the "assumed but stated for emphasis" category), you have no ability to meaningfully act on foreknowledge; you're saying that with the ability to meaningfully act on foreknowledge, you don't have total foreknowledge. They're contrapositives, each as logically valid as the other.


As you say, total foreknowledge means total lack of agency. You can make decisions, but you already know what you will decide, and every aspect of your decision-making process, and every interim decision involved, and when you'll think about knowing each of them....I guess it becomes a matter of philosophy/semantics whether you're actually making a decision when you already know the outcome; but still, if you know you'll go through the motions of deciding, you will go through the motions of deciding. Similarly, you can absolutely lie to people about the future; but you already knew you'd lie when you saw the future, and knowing you'll lie means you will lie.

How exactly such a self-stable timeline could come to be in the first place isn't worth much to you....You may not have complete hindsight, but you already know if anyone will ever find an answer, and you'll know what that answer they find is. Not that you'd be able to do anything differently with the knowledge, you already know everything you'll ever do. Heck, you already know everything you'll ever know.



Incomplete foreknowledge is much more usable than total foreknowledge could even allow for, is what I think I'm saying. Probably the best case scenario for total foreknowledge is that "total" is actually a misnomer and there's a boundary you're incapable of perceiving....Say, you're a fictional construct and your "total foreknowledge" is simply whatever your author has dictated/intended for your universe and ascribed to you. Maybe the audience will get more value from your "total foreknowledge" than you will; that's a pretty low bar, after all....

[Sagiro]

Am I the only one wondering if Serini's last word, focus!, is specifically in bold italics because it's a code word she has with Sunny for a tactical maneuver, and the battle's not over yet?

[Ionathus]

Am I the only one wondering if Serini's last word, focus!, is specifically in bold italics because it's a code word she has with Sunny for a tactical maneuver, and the battle's not over yet?

My guess is that the battle is now over. 6 panels of the status quo not changing (i.e. Serini stayed pinned, everything remained dispelled) makes me think the pacing's gonna slow down into a talky scene.

[Rinazina]

My guess is that the battle is now over. 6 panels of the status quo not changing (i.e. Serini stayed pinned, everything remained dispelled) makes me think the pacing's gonna slow down into a talky scene.

Serini is flanking for Mimi surprise attack, and then sneak attack Haley
Why Sunny has to keep eyes power-off then?
My bet that is that neutralize poison on Roy might change the situation, which is far from be solved peacefully, if you consider Serini commitment to subdue and forget.

[Rinazina]

Am I the only one wondering if Serini's last word, focus!, is specifically in bold italics because it's a code word she has with Sunny for a tactical maneuver, and the battle's not over yet?

entertaining thought: face and focus are keywords to instruct Mimi and/or Sunny? :)

[hungrycrow]

If focus was a code word, I feel like the comic would have ended with whatever maneuver they would start as a cliffhanger, instead of with a joke from Belkar.

Or maybe next comic we have a comedic bit where Serini has to repeat the code word until Sunny or Mimi understand.

[Metastachydium]

Serini is flanking for Mimi surprise attack, and then sneak attack Haley

I'm pretty sure flanking while pinned is not a thing and Mimi is far from adjacent to Haley anyway.

[pendell]

I'm pretty sure flanking while pinned is not a thing and Mimi is far from adjacent to Haley anyway.

Remind me, but isn't this dungeon dimensionally locked? This seems just the sort of thing contingency teleport was designed for, but Serini can't use that option if teleport isn't available here.

I don't think Serini's given up on her plan to neutralize the order, but the odds are getting far too long for comfort. The party is alerted, they are spread out so Sunny can't easily anti-magic them all, and they are quickly getting back on their feet. Were I in her shoes , it would be time to bug out and try again later, possibly after letting the traps and monsters in the dungeon nibble them down a bit.

But how? Maybe she has a scroll of ghostform or something that will allow her to slip away? As soon as Serini is able to trick Haley into un-pinning her, it will be time to exercise whatever escape option she has handy. I'm just not quite sure what it would be at this point.

To be honest, I'm a bit puzzled as to why she's being so careful of the order's lives. She's stocked this dungeon full of extremely high level monsters. This IS a lethal dungeon. Surely many adventurers who come here perish at the hands of both monsters and traps. So why is she treating the order with kid gloves, rather than allowing the monster to whittle them down through attrition first?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

Remind me, but isn't this dungeon dimensionally locked? This seems just the sort of thing contingency teleport was designed for, but Serini can't use that option if teleport isn't available here.

I don't think Serini's given up on her plan to neutralize the order, but the odds are getting far too long for comfort. The party is alerted, they are spread out so Sunny can't easily anti-magic them all, and they are quickly getting back on their feet. Were I in her shoes , it would be time to bug out and try again later, possibly after letting the traps and monsters in the dungeon nibble them down a bit.

But how? Maybe she has a scroll of ghostform or something that will allow her to slip away? As soon as Serini is able to trick Haley into un-pinning her, it will be time to exercise whatever escape option she has handy. I'm just not quite sure what it would be at this point.

To be honest, I'm a bit puzzled as to why she's being so careful of the order's lives. She's stocked this dungeon full of extremely high level monsters. This IS a lethal dungeon. Surely many adventurers who come here perish at the hands of both monsters and traps. So why is she treating the order with kid gloves, rather than allowing the monster to whittle them down through attrition first?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

She's fine with Haley being shattered and didn't seem to mind about Sunny using their death ray - it's probably for the benefit of Sunny, since without them this ambush wouldn't have gone even this well.

Also if they die then she might think whoever sent them will try and find them, or figure out why they disappeared.

[Metastachydium]

Remind me, but isn't this dungeon dimensionally locked?

Some like to read "it's built of multidimensional stone" as an indication that it is, but that was never confirmed by the comic or its author.

Maybe she has a scroll of ghostform or something that will allow her to slip away?

Ghostforming is the one thing we know multidimensional stone is very good against.

To be honest, I'm a bit puzzled as to why she's being so careful of the order's lives. She's stocked this dungeon full of extremely high level monsters. This IS a lethal dungeon. Surely many adventurers who come here perish at the hands of both monsters and traps. So why is she treating the order with kid gloves, rather than allowing the monster to whittle them down through attrition first?

1. The Order was so rude as not to wander into the decoy dungeon where most of the monsters likely are and they didn't even have the decency to wander any deeper into the real one.
2. Serini would have had Sunny start killing people when things started to go south for her. Had Sunny not refused to use lethal force, the Order would have been met with lethal force.

Edit:

She's fine with Haley being shattered and didn't seem to mind about Sunny using their death ray - it's probably for the benefit of Sunny, since without them this ambush wouldn't have gone even this well.

How dare you be faster than me?

Also if they die then she might think whoever sent them will try and find them, or figure out why they disappeared.

Sending them back to the people who know where they went and why doesn't really help with that, though.

[Peelee]

She's fine with Haley being shattered

She explicitly noted that was fixable.

[Fyraltari]

To be honest, I'm a bit puzzled as to why she's being so careful of the order's lives. She's stocked this dungeon full of extremely high level monsters. This IS a lethal dungeon. Surely many adventurers who come here perish at the hands of both monsters and traps. So why is she treating the order with kid gloves, rather than allowing the monster to whittle them down through attrition first?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Do people even come here? This is the freaking North Pole, the bugbears might have very well been the only people to get there between the Scribblers and Team Evil.

Also, the dungeon exists to stop people like Team Evil, people who would come here to use the Snarl for their own nefarious ends. She thinks the Paladins and the Stickers are misguided, but she knows they're good people, it's not surprising that she prefer not to kill them.

[Kornaki]

She explicitly noted that was fixable.

Are you sure you read that with the right level of skepticism?

[Peelee]

Are you sure you read that with the right level of skepticism?

Spoiler

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[Liquor Box]

She explicitly noted that was fixable.

I think most people read that as a flippant remark by Serini that glue would fix her, rather than Serini genuinely believing it would. Several people in the last discussion thread pointed out that it wouldn't fix her under the rules. That it wouldn't fix her seems to also be indicated in comic by Sunny italicized 'mom' in response, and that Serini moves on from the idea in the face of Sunny's resistance.

[Peelee]

That it wouldn't fix her seems to also be indicated in comic by Sunny italicized 'mom' in response, and that Serini moves on from the idea in the face of Sunny's resistance.

I'm not particularly moved by how most people see something (for example, I just finished Star Wars Visions, and the two episodes that were easily the worst for me are apparently being touted as fan favorites from what I can see), so I'm just going to address this point. I took it to indicate that Sunny was resistant to it regardless, seeing that as an unnecessary thing to do, not that it would not work.

[Liquor Box]

I'm not particularly moved by how most people see something (for example, I just finished Star Wars Visions, and the two episodes that were easily the worst for me are apparently being touted as fan favorites from what I can see), so I'm just going to address this point. I took it to indicate that Sunny was resistant to it regardless, seeing that as an unnecessary thing to do, not that it would not work.

Sure, I just mentioned what most people seemed to think to bring to your attention that there's a prevailing theory that you may not have considered. Far be it for me to cite what most people think as decisive, because I tend to only bother posting when I disagree with the majority view.

I don't agree that anything in the strip indicates shattering a petrified person is repairable by glue. First, it's not under the rules. Second, there's the practical issue of glueing together something shattered into a million pieces without lots of bits being missing or put in the wrong place. Third the subtext of the comic, with the rebuke from Sunny doesn't support it.

But if you are determined to still see Serini as unwilling to kill, I'm sure you'll be able to find a way to read it that way - I just thought you might have skimmed past it and entirely missed that it seems that Serini was being flippant by suggesting the use of glue.

[Peelee]

Sure, I just mentioned what most people seemed to think to bring to your attention that there's a prevailing theory that you may not have considered. Far be it for me to cite what most people think as decisive, because I tend to only bother posting when I disagree with the majority view.

I don't agree that anything in the strip indicates shattering a petrified person is repairable by glue. First, it's not under the rules. Second, there's the practical issue of glueing together something shattered into a million pieces without lots of bits being missing or put in the wrong place. Third the subtext of the comic, with the rebuke from Sunny doesn't support it.

But if you are determined to still see Serini as unwilling to kill, I'm sure you'll be able to find a way to read it that way - I just thought you might have skimmed past it and entirely missed that it seems that Serini was being flippant by suggesting the use of glue.

If we're taking it as read that it would shatter into a million pieces (and not, say, a reasonable number under the guise that that was a hyperbolic statement), then not taking it as read that the glue comment is an indication of a way to fix such an issue, then I would simply say that I disagree with your interpretation.

That being said, I'm not determined to see Serini as unwilling to kill. I simply have yet to see her do anything that would be lethal without being fixable before being lethal.

[Liquor Box]

If we're taking it as read that it would shatter into a million pieces (and not, say, a reasonable number under the guise that that was a hyperbolic statement), then not taking it as read that the glue comment is an indication of a way to fix such an issue, then I would simply say that I disagree with your interpretation.

If we take both statements at face value - glue would work, but she would shatter into a million pieces - then she can't be fixed.

If we take neither statement at face value - glue working is facetious and the million pieces remark is hyperbole - then Serii isn't even seriously suggesting she can be fixed.

So, if you are plumping for being consistent about taking statements at face value or not, it doesn't support your position.

That being said, I'm not determined to see Serini as unwilling to kill. I simply have yet to see her do anything that would be lethal without being fixable before being lethal.

I have no doubt you are not consciously doing that.

[Peelee]

If we take both statements at face value - glue would work, but she would shatter into a million pieces - then she can't be fixed.

If we take both statements at face value, then putting a million pieces together exactly correct is a million to one chance, meaning it's guaranteed to work in this comic and she can be fixed.

[Liquor Box]

If we take both statements at face value, then putting a million pieces together exactly correct is a million to one chance, meaning it's guaranteed to work in this comic and she can be fixed.

I get the reference, and I think I get your underlying point, but the pedant in me feels compelled to point out that putting a million indistinguishable pieces back together correctly is more like trillions to one than a million to one, because there's more than a million ways for a million pieces to combine.

[georgie_leech]

If we take both statements at face value, then putting a million pieces together exactly correct is a million to one chance, meaning it's guaranteed to work in this comic and she can be fixed.

That's not quite how pieces work. Imagine having 4 pieces and only 1 dimension: a line. You could put them into 24 orders. And that's ignoring how orientation changes things, and doesn't take into account the differences in orientation. Probability is a poor means of deciding how difficult putting something back together is.

[Peelee]

I get the reference, and I think I get your underlying point, but the pedant in me feels compelled to point out that putting a million indistinguishable pieces back together correctly is more like trillions to one than a million to one, because there's more than a million ways for a million pieces to combine.

Oh certainly. I was just demonstrating the possibility of being flippant while still making a point.

[Wraithfighter]

It does seem to me that Serini would indeed like to not kill any of the Stickies.

...

That said.

The question that's worth asking is which is more important to Serini: Keeping the Stickies alive, or winning the fight?

And, for the record, I don't know if there's a right answer to that question. But it does seem to me that there's a degree of escalation here:

• Serini starts off the fight using Sonny only to disable magic, instead plinking away with poisoned, non-lethal ranged weapons. Explicitly trying to win without anyone dying.
• Then she shifts to Plan B once V gets loose, which involves Sonny using many of his eyes to produce deleterious effects on the heroes... but nothing that's lethal, at Sonny's reminder. Even Flesh-To-Stone can be reversed fairly easily with the right effect, but it's still a level of escalation, because it won't go away on its own.
• She also hits V with a poisoned bolt despite him being in the air, doing a lot of damage to him. Now, by D&D rules it'd be shocking for him to be killed by that, but it would be possible under, you know, normal rules.
• Then she tries to get Sonny to Flesh-To-Stone Haley while she's in the air, after trying to hit Haley with a KO Bolt while she's high up in the air. Sonny refuses, because it could theoretically kill her for good.

...so, yeah. I think Serini does want to get through this without killing anyone. Maybe its for Sonny's sake, maybe its for her own, but regardless, that desire has been fading as the fight has gone more and more out of her control.

...

And yeah, uh, there's this gun here, some prick by the name of Chekov left laying around, something about Eye #8?

And we know that Belkar's death is getting closer and closer?

...and Serini's completely lost control of the fight, now visible, on the ground and pinned?

...I'm just saying, right now, I'm hearing a <click>.