OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

[Hurkyl]

And if you seriously think any of those are mutually incompatible, I have a bridge to sell to Terabithia.

Heck, there's more overlap than not at this point.

Why would I think they are mutually incompatible? They do differ on key points, though, such as the specific one I was responding to. Specifically, with (AFAIK) the best current information, destroying the gate:

• achieves the "stop Xykon" goal;
• preserves the "don't let all of reality be undone" goal;
• eliminates the "don't let the current world be taken apart" goal; and
• it's uncertain how it will affect the "break the cycle" goal.

[danielxcutter]

The Order still doesn't actually plan to destroy the Gate at all, regardless of what Serini herself thinks. Not any more. Remember how they reacted to Roy deciding to destroy the Gate? Even Belkar was like "Huh? Aren't the Gates keeping the cosmic pants of everything falling off?"

They probably wouldn't destroy it anyways if they wanted to let the world be destroyed, because more than a few gods already voted Yes even without the Ritual already being in progress.

[Hurkyl]

The Order still doesn't actually plan to destroy the Gate at all, regardless of what Serini herself thinks.

None of the gates were destroyed because someone was planning to do so. Lirian's gate was an accidental casualty of a forest fire. The Dungeon of Dorukan was destroyed because a bard couldn't resist the temptation to press a big red button. Soon's and Girard's gates' destructions were spur-of-the-moment decisions^* made when the relevant defenders realized they were unlikely to repel Xykon.

I'm pretty sure Serini never thought anyone was entering this situation with the intention of destroying the gate: her concern is that the different groups' priorities will lead them to take that action when she herself would be opposed to it.

But that's an aside, my point was that there are enough goals the Order are interested in that the earlier claim "The Order's goal can't be achieved by destroying the last gate." is not certain. (which, in turn, was asserted as a rebuttal to a previous point that destroying the gate to achieve the order's goal was something that has actually happened previously)


*: I suppose I could be giving Roy less credit than he deserves. It's plausible, at least, that Roy had been kicking that solution around in the back of the mind prior to learning the news Xykon was on his way.

[Peelee]

She has invisibility, epic rogue sneaking skills besides, is on her home turf and has allies that nobody would have had any way of suspecting her to have. I just don't buy that she couldn't control the circumstances of the engagement whether they knew she might be in the area or not, even if they knew she was alive.

Never said she couldn't. I said it was more advantageous to have that extra bit. Every +1 helps, as the old saying goes (metaphorical cslly in this case).

[Bacon Elemental]

Serini has a pretty obvious motive for wanting to pretend to be dead from some mid-level bozos coming to her gate, outside which is camped the Epic lich and his 17th-18th level cleric buddy along with a couple of other powerful types. Because if they don't know she's alive, they can't spill the fact she's alive to team evil.

It's like Lien and Ochul were talking about right before she nabbed them using magical items - "The best defense against all that magic they're packing is that they don't know we're here".

It might not be the most logical approach but it sure does fit with her information-control agenda

[Vikenlugaid]

This isn't really accurate.

I assume you are not talking about Lyrian's gate (which Xykon destroyed) or Girard's gate (which Xykon never visited) or Soon's gate (where the paladins stopped Xykon).

At Dorukan's gate the defences delayed Xykon, until the Order ultimately came and defeated him. So I think that the Order can claim at least equal responsibility with the gate's defences for stopping Team Evil there.

As for the gate's destruction, it was one of the gate's defences (the self destruct button) that destroyed it. Admittedly the Order is also partly responsible here.



So the way things turned out at previous gates shouldn't inspire any more confidence in the gate's defences than in the Order in terms of stopping Xykon.

Dorukan's gate defenses kept team evil from taking the gate, and even destroyed Xykon (Roy just pushed him to the defenses) and then de Order destroyed the gate. Defenses win.

Soon's gate defenses actually beated Xykon and Redcloak. Then a crazy ex-Paladin, who was specially crazy and ex-paladin "thanks" to the Order, destroyed the gate. Defenses win.

Girard gate defenses were great, but V, a member of the order, destroyed them, and then the the order destroyed de gate. Defenses win.

Even at Lirian's gate she managed to beat team evil and their army, but diabolus ex machina gave Redcloak time, resources and capacity to counterattack and beat the defenses, but not in a satisfactory way for team evil. Defenses not win but not loses either.

If i was Serini, I totally trust the defenses more than the guys who destroyed 2 gates directly and 1 indirectly. Specially if the defenses of this gate are MINE and obviously I trust more in me than a stranger.

Serini is acting in a 100% rational way. Maybe narratively she will be "wrong", but that's another thing. And, btw, maybe she won't, and this will lead to the gate destruction, and the comic will end with someone saving the day at the very last second.

[Hurkyl]

Soon's gate defenses actually beated Xykon and Redcloak. Then a crazy ex-Paladin, who was specially crazy and ex-paladin "thanks" to the Order, destroyed the gate. Defenses win.

Don't forget that Miko was completing an action she saw one the Paladins present had specifically tried to do but was paralyzed in the process. (and that was even before letting the main gate defense engage)

[danielxcutter]

Don't forget that Miko was acting out something one of the Paladins present had specifically tried to do. (and even before letting the main gate defense engage)

Yes, when it seems like that would be the only way to stop Xykon from getting control of the Gate. When Miko did it, Soon was just about to destroy Xykon and kill Redcloak - in fact, the only reason he didn't is her.

[Hurkyl]

Yes, when it seems like that would be the only way to stop Xykon from getting control of the Gate. When Miko did it, Soon was just about to destroy Xykon and kill Redcloak - in fact, the only reason he didn't is her.

Well, if you want to harp on it... this is a pretty apropos example when put that way, don't ya think? One of the parties present at the Tomb actually has a history of, in their ignorance, trying to take action that would undermine gate defenses.

I suppose I could be wrong and the plan was always living paladins -> destroy the sapphire -> dead paladins, but that seems pretty unlikely.

[danielxcutter]

Well, if you want to harp on it... this is a pretty apropos example when put that way, don't ya think? One of the parties present at the Tomb actually has a history of, in their ignorance, trying to take action that would undermine gate defenses.

I suppose I could be wrong and the plan was always living paladins -> destroy the sapphire -> dead paladins, but that seems pretty unlikely.

Oh, so Serini gets a free pass for not knowing about the Godsmoot and O-Chul doesn’t for not knowing about the ghost-martyrs? Really?

[Liquor Box]

Dorukan's gate defenses kept team evil from taking the gate, and even destroyed Xykon (Roy just pushed him to the defenses) and then de Order destroyed the gate. Defenses win.

Soon's gate defenses actually beated Xykon and Redcloak. Then a crazy ex-Paladin, who was specially crazy and ex-paladin "thanks" to the Order, destroyed the gate. Defenses win.

Girard gate defenses were great, but V, a member of the order, destroyed them, and then the the order destroyed de gate. Defenses win.

Even at Lirian's gate she managed to beat team evil and their army, but diabolus ex machina gave Redcloak time, resources and capacity to counterattack and beat the defenses, but not in a satisfactory way for team evil. Defenses not win but not loses either.

I think that's a pretty skewed account of things. You say it was the defences destroyed Xykon and Roy just pushed him in - but you could equally say that the defences destroyed the gate, and Elan just set them off. I think it is inconsistent logic to attribute the destruction of Xykon to the tool and the destruction of the gate to the person using the tool.

The defences actually failed on all four occasions. They failed to prevent the destruction of the gate every time.

Spoiler

Show

I don't get your account of Lyrian's gate either. There was nothing diabolus ex machina about what happened there - Redclaok just cast a predicable spell on the gate. Indeed, it was actually the Treants (the defences) that ultimately destroyed the gate through Redcloak's attack.

If i was Serini, I totally trust the defenses more than the guys who destroyed 2 gates directly and 1 indirectly. Specially if the defenses of this gate are MINE and obviously I trust more in me than a stranger.

Well, the Order failed to protect the gate on 3 occasions, but the defences failed on all 4 occasions.

The Order was directly involved in the destruction of 2 gates, the defences were directly involved in the destruction of 2 gates as well (three if Miko is counted as part of the defence of Soon's gate).

Your point that Serini would trust more in her own defences is a better one. Except she doesn't seem to have a lot of faith in her defences. The only information we have on her thinking is her exchange with the paladins, and she didn't mention her defences once. Her whole discussion was about how bad Xykon taking the gate would be relative to the risk of its destruction. Nothing in those three comics suggests someone who is confident in her defences.

Indeed, if she trusted her defences, she wouldn't be worried about the Order, because the defences would stop them.

Serini is acting in a 100% rational way. Maybe narratively she will be "wrong", but that's another thing. And, btw, maybe she won't, and this will lead to the gate destruction, and the comic will end with someone saving the day at the very last second.

Nope.

As mentioned above, all that we know of Serini's plans (other than speculation) is from her discussions with the paladins. There she told us that her concern was that conflict between the paladins and Team Evil might lead to the destruction of the gate, but if the paladins were removed there would be no such conflict. She went on to say that Xykon winning would not be as bad as the risk of the gate being destroyed. But she then says that someone else will come to topple him, but doesn't seem to click that this will just mean more conflict and more risk to the gate. She also overlooks the fact that Team Evil are themselves a threat to the gate.

There's several other ways that Serini has behaved irrationally. I'd be happy to discuss in the thread dedicated to the purpose.

Well, if you want to harp on it... this is a pretty apropos example when put that way, don't ya think? One of the parties present at the Tomb actually has a history of, in their ignorance, trying to take action that would undermine gate defenses.

One of the parties has undermined the gate defences? Surely at least three of the five groups present have undermined the gate's defences:

• Serini, by revealing the gates existence and their location. Secrecy was their first defence, and they'd be safe today if Serini hadn't undermined it.
• Team Evil was directly involved in the destruction of Lyrian's gate, and also played a part in the destruction of Soon's Gate and Dorukan's gate. It certainly undermined the defences of all three.
• The Order was directly involved in the destruction of Girard's gate and Dorukan's gate. It certainly undermined the defences of Girard's gate.

The Saphire Guard and bugbear village may not have undermined any defences. Although, if you consider Miko to be a member of the Sapphire Guard at the time she destroyed the gate, I guess you could attribute that to the them.

[Vikenlugaid]

I was actually speaking about my points in general, and particularly the one before that one...

I dunno, I just don't get why some people are willing to throw the Order under the bus this easily. I guess she might have a point or two but I don't think she's supposed to be Right^TM.

WE know the Order, WE know Roy, Elan, Durkon, etc. We know that they arr good people with flaws but with good intentios and they have learned a lot... But Serini only know that they destroyed several gates, and maybe she even know that one of them killed the entire family of an old friend.

Really, if this comic had Serini as protagonist and we only know far rumors about the Order and sudenly we have the Order on screen, we all would think the same as Serini, in the same way as when the Order get captured by the Azurites everyone sided with the order... But the Azurites were totally right there.

Points of view.

And I am still pretty sure that the Order getting free here will lead to a disaster, initially at least.

[Vikenlugaid]

Oh, so Serini gets a free pass for not knowing about the Godsmoot and O-Chul doesn’t for not knowing about the ghost-martyrs? Really?

That's on Hinjo. And was a huge mistake by the way.

[danielxcutter]

That's on Hinjo. And was a huge mistake by the way.

What’s on Hinjo?

[Quizatzhaderac]

N Or I would've used my epic theives skills to retrieve and destroy the gem holding Lirian and Dorokun's soul so they could be raised to rebuild the gates (assuming she knows either of those things. I don't know if she does)

She also doesn't know any cleric capable of casting true resurrection except Redcloak.

If I was to make a rough assessment/guess (guessessment?)

I vote 'Assguessment'

Oh, so Serini gets a free pass for not knowing about the Godsmoot and O-Chul doesn’t for not knowing about the ghost-martyrs? Really?

From Serini's perspective? yes.

What’s on Hinjo?

Not telling he commander of the throne room fight (O-Chul) that there would be epic ghost reinforcements if they failed, and so not to destroy the gate if things went badly.

[Hurkyl]

Oh, so Serini gets a free pass for not knowing about the Godsmoot and O-Chul doesn’t for not knowing about the ghost-martyrs? Really?

Eh? Who's handing out passes? What are people being given passes for? Did you think I was levying any criticism at O-Chul with that comment?

I hadn't really thought about doing so. I suppose... it would be an interesting to dive into the idea of how reasonable it was for O-Chul to take drastic action based on the apparent belief he was part of the last line of defense. But I'm not sure we really have enough for that discussion to go anywhere?

[Vikenlugaid]

It is reasonable to think someone is foolish for presuming they know everything they could ever possibly need to know about such a high-stakes situation. Especially when verifying that would cost so little effort on their part.

So if Serini had answered that calls and manipulated the Order to get información and lied to them about being "their ally"... And then atracked them anyway, you would think she was right then? Are you saying that? And if not, why use that argument?

[Vikenlugaid]

What’s on Hinjo?

Not telling O'chul about Soon's spell.

[Hurkyl]

The Saphire Guard ... may not have undermined any defences.

Only by virtue of Xykon stopping O-Chul before he could destroy the gemstone that permits the Ghost Martyrs remain.

(note that while I consider that decision instrumental in convincing Miko to do so, I do not assign any responsibility to O-Chul for it)

(I'm willing to count Miko as being separate from the Sapphire Guard for the purposes of this line of discussion)

[hungrycrow]

Not telling he commander of the throne room fight (O-Chul) that there would be epic ghost reinforcements if they failed, and so not to destroy the gate if things went badly.

Maybe becoming ghost martyrs required them to not know it would happen?

[Vikenlugaid]

Maybe becoming ghost martyrs required them to not know it would happen?

Then at least tell them don't destroy the sapphire under ANY circunstances.
Oh, maybe Hinjo told him that and Ochul still tried to destroy the sapphire? Maybe Serini knows that? Who knows...

[Psyren]

They're also allied with and likely to report back to an institution whose practices killed a cat, has an interest in Serini's cat, and has historically gone through great and terrible lengths to impose their will on the world.

Okay, and? That's a reason to not learn as much as she can about them, when doing so would be so easy?

So if Serini had answered that calls and manipulated the Order to get información and lied to them about being "their ally"... And then atracked them anyway, you would think she was right then? Are you saying that? And if not, why use that argument?

No, I didn't say anything about "right" or "wrong." I'm judging her tactics, not her morals.

Never said she couldn't. I said it was more advantageous to have that extra bit. Every +1 helps, as the old saying goes (metaphorical cslly in this case).

I totally agree, but I think she could have gotten far more +1s by pretending to be their ally than by refusing to answer. That is my judgment of her.

[Hurkyl]

Okay, and? That's a reason to not learn as much as she can about them, when doing so would be so easy?

No, that's a reason to prevent them from learning things about her and her cat.

[danielxcutter]

I'd honestly understand if her core motivation really does come from fear, trauma, emotional baggage, those kinds of things because she has been through a lot, I don't, can't, and frankly won't deny that.

But I really, really don't think she's supposed to be right.

Like... say she's right about everything except - or even perhaps including, as I've seen at least once - the stuff in the last book.

What then? If they can't defeat Xykon... then what? What function do the Order have left in this story?

[Hurkyl]

It's pretty standard for protagonists in fiction to be successful despite making terrible choices one after another. To the point that I don't think even an outright guarantee from the author that they will be successful at some task tells you much relevant to this line of discussion.

Villains get lucky all the time too, of course. Or anyone effecting plot, really.

[Psyren]

No, that's a reason to prevent them from learning things about her and her cat.

You mean the cat they already know about, and will absolutely head to next if she doesn't say anything?

She stands to learn a lot more about them than they do about her, which is pretty handy when you only have one tactic at your disposal to take down a superior force.

[Hurkyl]

Like... say she's right about everything except - or even perhaps including, as I've seen at least once - the stuff in the last book.

What then? If they can't defeat Xykon... then what? What function do the Order have left in this story?

Assuming for the sake of argument (I don't think the implication is so clear) that Serini being right implies the Order will not defeat Xykon....

We still have some significant plot threads that are looming, such as the planet in the rift, or mediation between TDO and the other gods.

There are many sources for additional aid; e.g. Sapphire Guard, MitD, breaking up Team Evil, divine intervention.

There are lots of ways things can go that aren't "OotS as the six man team they are now soundly defeats Team Evil in a straight up fight".

[bunsen_h]

Wait, did you hypothetically expect her to say "I'm not alive I promise!" in response to a sending?
"I read the script" was meant as a facetious response to something I thought you weren't being serious about.

Though the identification isn't certain, it's possible that Sunny has had access to the scripts.

Considering she had Sunny Charm Elan, it seems likely she knows something about their capabilities. Bards normally have at least decent Will saves.

She may be aware that Elan blew up Dorukan's gate just for laughs, which would argue for a low Wisdom.

You mean the cat they already know about, and will absolutely head to next if she doesn't say anything?

She stands to learn a lot more about them than they do about her, which is pretty handy when you only have one tactic at your disposal to take down a superior force.

If the Order became certain that she was still around, they'd be likely to tell other people about it. She wants to remain secret.

[bunsen_h]

Looking again at that second-last panel, it's a bit odd that someone with her resources wouldn't have gone for a lower toilet seat. I know that art-wise, it helps to emphasize "halfling!" to have her perched on a full-height toilet, but that's got to be annoying, having to hop up there with her breeches down. Especially if she has the other common seniors' complaint of having to pee frequently. When I chose a new toilet a couple of years ago, it was important to me to have one that matched my leg length.

[Jasdoif]

But I really, really don't think she's supposed to be right.

There's been a lot of " 'the ends justify the means' makes a lot of messed up means" shown so far this book. Serini's just happens to be more elaborate than Durkon's, or Redcloak's, or Fenris's.