OOTS #1244 - The Discussion Thread

[bunsen_h]

[Strong elvish accent. Sound quality is terrible. There's background chatter of other elvish voices, as well as elvish music.] "I am Vincent from Microsoft Windows, telling you that Evil people have compromised the security of your Gate. I will help you upgrade your protections."

EDIT:

As Hilgya pointed out out what she did was yes, murder, was easily fixable. She can fix what she did personally in 10 minutes.

Except for Durkon's loss of another level. Under the circumstances, that's serious stuff.

Serini has indoor plumbing and a commode!?

The Romans had them. The flushing was continuous-flow. A "latrina" was a single-occupant toilet room, vs. a "forica", a multi-seater.

[Ionathus]

I find it interesting that aside from Minrah, the members of the Order still awake aren’t the ones who know about the Plan and the goblin predicament.

Hmm, this is an excellent point. My money is on this being relevant, at least to give us a single strip of lighthearted or more combative dialogue before Durkon/Roy clue Serini in on the critical info she's missing.

OK, having played a lot of hobbits and halflings over the years, I ought to have phrased that differently. Two servings of Mrs. Starmast's home made guacamole for you. (By the way, her home made guac is awesome!).

Man, I want this guac more and more every time you reference it.

I...so why don't you tell them "**** off, everything's fine, you're just giving me a headache" or something? It's a wizard contacting you, you know what their Sense Motive checks are like, you could easily craft a lie that they could believe!

Have you ever argued with a six-year-old? It really doesn't matter what you say...if they want to do something, they'll try to find a way to justify or make excuses for why they actually CAN be trusted with it. I mentioned the baby bird thing in a prior thread: "don't touch the bird or the mother will abandon it" isn't a real thing (birds can't "smell the human" on their young), but if you say "no, you won't be careful enough and you might hurt it" then the child will just start arguing about how careful they can be. Same situation here with the gates: Serini has 0 trust in the Order, so she's just not going to even start the conversation.

Serini sees the Order as children. Well-equipped and well-meaning children, but children nonetheless. She's not going to give them any reasons for her actions, because giving a reason for your unpopular actions to a child is an invitation to a long and pointless argument with someone who doesn't know as much or understand how logic works. That's not a diss on the child -- they're learning how to talk and argue and reason things out and that's super cool -- but if it's very important that they not do something right now, particularly for safety reasons, sometimes "because I said so, no arguing" really is the most successful approach.

I never said I didn't object. But she got her You Suck speech too, and for something that had much less overall effect on the narrative than anything Serini is currently doing. Deflect to Hilgya all you want, she's not relevant here.

Pointing out that side characters have done worse things than Serini and only received a slap on the wrist in response is not "deflecting." You were the one who followed that comparison by claiming Hilgya's actions were not as bad/disruptive, and I responded to your statement. If you want to stop talking about Hilgya that's fine, but please don't accuse me of deflection on your way out of a topic that you also engaged me on.

I do presume everyone agrees on the fact that her premise is entirely overturned by the Plan, right?

A few months ago I (or somebody else, can't remember) proposed a new text color for "we are discussing hypotheticals within Serini's understanding of the gates, and therefore ignoring the implications of The Godsmoot and the true nature of The Plan." It never took off, but I think the forum has generally gotten better at instinctively delineating Serini's knowledge & logic from The Order's. Which is too bad, because I can't tell you how fun it would be to have coined a widely-used text color

[Quizatzhaderac]

Serini has indoor plumbing and a commode!?

This is the essential difference between fantasy and history. It's usually not so on the nose, but people in fantasy don't have to deal with chamber pots and cholera and what-not.

It isn't exactly the most out-there anachronism in the strip, and even in-universe the gnomes have a sewage treatment plant.

That was the azurites.

Also, even if he did, his advisors could potentially have also known how to survive as Indy did.

Everyone knew the rules to handle the ark. The rules are in literally the most published book ever.

Spielberg probably didn't foreshadow what happened because he presumed the audience knew.

The Nazis were just so arrogant that they thought they could pick and choose which rules applied to them.

[Fyraltari]

It's usually not so on the nose, but people in fantasy don't have to deal with chamber pots and cholera and what-not.

*Stares in Tyrion Lannister.*

[Psyren]

Pointing out that side characters have done worse things than Serini and only received a slap on the wrist in response is not "deflecting." You were the one who followed that comparison by claiming Hilgya's actions were not as bad/disruptive, and I responded to your statement. If you want to stop talking about Hilgya that's fine, but please don't accuse me of deflection on your way out of a topic that you also engaged me on.

1) I'm not on my way out of anything.
2) Where you continue to fail is that you're comparing Hilgya's actions to Serini's in a vacuum. Yes, if you ask "what's worse, murdering one person or nonlethally knocking out several", obviously the former is worse. But in the broader context, when the former has no long-term consequences (because resurrection exists) but the latter is aimed at establishing centuries of despotism by an epic lich, that changes the math. At least a little, unless you don't care about results at all.

[Riftwolf]

Spielberg probably didn't foreshadow what happened because he presumed the audience knew.

Not seen the film in a while but I'm pretty sure what happened was foreshadowed when Indiana was first approached to find the Ark. {Scrubbed}

[Ionathus]

1) I'm not on my way out of anything.

Deflect to Hilgya all you want, she's not relevant here.

Earlier when you said I was "deflecting" to Hilgya and that she wasn't relevant, I took that to mean that you didn't want to discuss Hilgya anymore, didn't think discussing her was useful, and were "on your way out" of the topic of Hilgya (but not the overall thread or debate). I thought this was strange, because you and I had just discussed her and I'd found it useful.

2) Where you continue to fail is that you're comparing Hilgya's actions to Serini's in a vacuum. Yes, if you ask "what's worse, murdering one person or nonlethally knocking out several", obviously the former is worse. But in the broader context, when the former has no long-term consequences (because resurrection exists) but the latter is aimed at establishing centuries of despotism by an epic lich, that changes the math. At least a little, unless you don't care about results at all.

Okay, are we talking about Serini's specific behavior towards the heroes, or her broader scheme and philosophy? Because your original statement on this tangent was only about how she was obstructing the heroes, and didn't talk about the bigger picture:

Smacking down Durkon in a fit of pique, while heinous, was a single act. Not an entire campaign of obstructing not only the Order but also the surviving members of the Sapphire Guard based purely on an assumption/lack of faith in the heroes.

But sure, if you want to bring in the bigger picture, I'll bite. Like other posters who have said similar, I don't believe Serini's overall plan is "lay down and wait to die." If it were, she'd have taken down the traps and let Xykon waltz right in. Unlike some of those same posters, though, I don't think she has some bigger scheme in mind: I think her current plan is "stall for time until I come up with something," which is a very rogue thing to do...but that does not mean that she is giving up, even if it looks that way to Lawful Good characters like Lien and O-Chul who believe that Evil must be met head-on wherever it resides.

[Metastachydium]

"stall for time until I come up with something," which is a very rogue thing to do...but that does not mean that she is giving up, even if it looks that way to Lawful Good characters like Lien and O-Chul who believe that Evil must be met head-on wherever it resides.

You sure we are talking about the same O-Chul (v. panel no. 4)?

[Psyren]

Okay, are we talking about Serini's specific behavior towards the heroes, or her broader scheme and philosophy? Because your original statement on this tangent was only about how she was obstructing the heroes, and didn't talk about the bigger picture:


But sure, if you want to bring in the bigger picture, I'll bite. Like other posters who have said similar, I don't believe Serini's overall plan is "lay down and wait to die." If it were, she'd have taken down the traps and let Xykon waltz right in. Unlike some of those same posters, though, I don't think she has some bigger scheme in mind: I think her current plan is "stall for time until I come up with something," which is a very rogue thing to do...but that does not mean that she is giving up, even if it looks that way to Lawful Good characters like Lien and O-Chul who believe that Evil must be met head-on wherever it resides.

My quote was very clearly about the bigger picture I have no idea how you could read "campaign of obstruction" any other way.

Also, we know her goal, and it is definitely not merely stalling to come up with something. She wants Xykon to win so that the last gate, and thus the world, stays intact. And she is okay with the unknowable duration of tyranny and sapient misery that will accompany that. She's even assuming that life for monsters may improve under that regime when, as we can empirically see with Gobbotopia, Xykon doesn't care about any living creatures.

But if she actually talked to the Order, she would know there are bigger problems too. Redcloak's plan to threaten the other gods might lead them to pop the cork anyway, or worse it might actually succeed and change the cosmology in unknown ways. And even if Xykon ices him and doesn't go through with that, we also have no idea what the IFCC are after, but V can warn her about that too. Serini assuming she has all the answers is a problem, and a way bigger problem than Hilgya killing and immediately resurrecting one dwarf. That's why I see any comparison between the two as utterly irrelevant. HTH.

[hungrycrow]

My quote was very clearly about the bigger picture I have no idea how you could read "campaign of obstruction" any other way.

Also, we know her goal, and it is definitely not merely stalling to come up with something. She wants Xykon to win so that the last gate, and thus the world, stays intact. And she is okay with the unknowable duration of tyranny and sapient misery that will accompany that. She's even assuming that life for monsters may improve under that regime when, as we can empirically see with Gobbotopia, Xykon doesn't care about any living creatures.

To be fair here, this isn't Serini's stated plan, it's just a hypothetical option Serini is comparing to O'chul's decision to destroy the Azure City gate.

Personally I suspect Serini doesn't have a plan to stop Xykon, and hasn't opened up the dungeon to him just to buy the world a few more weeks without his rule. But that's just an assumption.

[Fyraltari]

Also, we know her goal, and it is definitely not merely stalling to come up with something. She wants Xykon to win so that the last gate, and thus the world, stays intact.

No, she doesn't. If she did, she'd drop the illusion on the tunnels and lead him to it. She just thinks the last Gate being broken is an even worse outcome than Xykon winning. She doesn't trust the Order and friends not to destroy the Gate should Team Evil wins which is why she wants them out of the picture. It's not that complicated.

[Psyren]

No, she doesn't. If she did, she'd drop the illusion on the tunnels and lead him to it. She just thinks the last Gate being broken is an even worse outcome than Xykon winning. She doesn't trust the Order and friends not to destroy the Gate should Team Evil wins which is why she wants them out of the picture. It's not that complicated.

If her plan truly is "incapacitate all the other heroes and stop the guy who curbstomped me once by myself with no help" then she's even dumber than I thought.

And I'm seeing the assumption that she could just turn off all the defenses on the Gate pop up a lot. Y'all know she didn't actually build the dungeon right? She just bankrolled it?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Well, I think this ends the "Serini is, for some reason, Grandma Bitterleaf or otherwise related to Belkar" theory.

[hungrycrow]

If her plan truly is "incapacitate all the other heroes and stop the guy who curbstomped me once by myself with no help" then she's even dumber than I thought.

And I'm seeing the assumption that she could just turn off all the defenses on the Gate pop up a lot. Y'all know she didn't actually build the dungeon right? She just bankrolled it?

She designed the defenses I think. At the very least she can turn off the teleport traps at the entrance; we don't know if there are defenses after that which she can't turn off.

Of course her not planning on defeating Xykon wouldn't necessarily mean she has to accelerate his victory.

[Fyraltari]

If her plan truly is "incapacitate all the other heroes and stop the guy who curbstomped me once by myself with no help" then she's even dumber than I thought.

She got ganked when she was alone. He's on her turf with her monsters. Obviously she won't be the one to beat him because she's not the protagonist, but she'd have better odds in a rematch.

And I'm seeing the assumption that she could just turn off all the defenses on the Gate pop up a lot. Y'all know she didn't actually build the dungeon right? She just bankrolled it?

She designed it. These are her traps and her monsters in her dungeon. Haley could turn off the teleporting tunnel with a rat skull, do you really think she can't turn it off? Really?

[Psyren]

She got ganked when she was alone. He's on her turf with her monsters. Obviously she won't be the one to beat him because she's not the protagonist, but she'd have better odds in a rematch.

Pretty sure he was alone then too.

She designed it. These are her traps and her monsters in her dungeon. Haley could turn off the teleporting tunnel with a rat skull, do you really think she can't turn it off? Really?

That's the only defense in there? Really?

[danielxcutter]

There is a difference between being so resigned you don't bother with alternatives out of fear and prejudice and whatnot, and kicking her own doors herself.

Also like... it might just be me. I hope it's just me. But it feels like some of you guys have a knee-jerk reaction by seeing some people going "she attacked the Order, she's Evil" and running in the opposite direction from that. Because agreeing with that would make you the same as them.

You couldn't bring yourself to think the Klatchians had done it. Because that'd line you up with Sergeant Colon and the rest of the Klatchian-****-are-made-of-camel-dung brigade.

Going "OOO SERINI IS EVULZ" is pretty stupid, but so is rushing to the other extreme. I hope that's not what I'm seeing.

[Dewin Dwl]

I find it interesting that aside from Minrah, the members of the Order still awake aren’t the ones who know about the Plan and the goblin predicament.

I hadn't picked up on this, but had noticed that Roy and Durkon had been omitted from the last few strips - not even depicted in the background. I guess these observations may be interconnected.

[danielxcutter]

I hadn't picked up on this, but had noticed that Roy and Durkon had been omitted from the last few strips - not even depicted in the background. I guess these observations may be interconnected.

Personally, I expect the four here to start chipping away at Serini's reasoning before Minrah, Roy, and Durkon drive a bulldozer through it called The Plan.

[Metastachydium]

She got ganked when she was alone. He's on her turf with her monsters. Obviously she won't be the one to beat him because she's not the protagonist, but she'd have better odds in a rematch.

The monsters Team Evil is plowing through at a rate of six Gates a night? Sure, the odds can only get better than "epic level lich sorcerer ambushes you", but she probably shouldn't feel too safe.

Personally, I expect the four here to start chipping away at Serini's reasoning before Minrah, Roy, and Durkon drive a bulldozer through it called The Plan.

…convincing her that THE PLAN MUST CONTINUE!

[danielxcutter]

The monsters Team Evil is plowing through at a rate of six Gates a night? Sure, the odds can only get better than "epic level lich sorcerer ambushes you", but she probably shouldn't feel too safe.

In fact, every dungeon they plow through makes it less likely for Xykon to be defeated, because even if he doesn't get much XP his other allies do. Redcloak might be 18th~19th level by now.

Serini's willfully content with delaying the inevitable; she's just not greasing the chutes.

[Ionathus]

My quote was very clearly about the bigger picture I have no idea how you could read "campaign of obstruction" any other way.

"Campaign of obstructing The Order and the paladins in their plan for the last gate."

But if she actually talked to the Order, she would know there are bigger problems too. Redcloak's plan to threaten the other gods might lead them to pop the cork anyway, or worse it might actually succeed and change the cosmology in unknown ways. And even if Xykon ices him and doesn't go through with that, we also have no idea what the IFCC are after, but V can warn her about that too. Serini assuming she has all the answers is a problem, and a way bigger problem than Hilgya killing and immediately resurrecting one dwarf. That's why I see any comparison between the two as utterly irrelevant. HTH.

Serini was on the original team that sealed the Rifts and created the gates. They learned everything there was to know about them before cleansing the history books of any reference to them. The Order only knows what they know due to divine revelations from a god, and because they initiated a discussion with Redcloak because of those same revelations...something the Scribblers believed wouldn't happen (i.e. gods won't tell mortals about the Rifts or the Snarl). So yeah, I don't really think she's crazy or stupid for assuming she already knows everything that the Order could tell her.

It would be lovely if Serini was a conversational Lawful Good type who believes that everyone should be heard out fully before being dismissed. But she's not, and that doesn't automatically make her a moron. An arrogant condescending jerk, sure.

You sure we are talking about the same O-Chul (v. panel no. 4)?

Sure. O-Chul was also happy to wait on the cliff face rather than go down and start trying doors himself. He's tactically savvy enough to wait for the right time to strike, but I think there's a distinction between that and his more philosophical stance in their argument with Serini. O-Chul might be tactical, but he doesn't want to retreat from Xykon's plot to take over the world. Whereas Serini is willing to "know when to fold 'em" and wait for another chance to strike.

There was a similar discussion with Hinjo and Haley after the Sapphire shattered. It's the moral rigidity that paladins are often depicted with: they're not willing to let even a single innocent suffer while they still draw breath. O-Chul thinks he and Lien and the Order could face Xykon right now and end his threat: Serini thinks it's too big a risk.

[KorvinStarmast]

it's the "you're asking the wrong question" type of retort. And Belkar acknowledges it immediately by saying "yeah, that was my next question."

+1 for this.

Whether she was always this way or whether it grew on her with old age is probably the more interesting question

I'll drop two centavos on the "gets worse with old age" given my own life experience.

Serini has indoor plumbing and a commode!?

It isn't exactly the most out-there anachronism in the strip, and even in-universe the gnomes have a sewage treatment plant.

+1

Man, I want this guac more and more every time you reference it.

If I could down load it and send it to you via PM, I'd do so, but we have a few technological hurdles to overcome first ...

Have you ever argued with a six-year-old?

I'll answer a question with a question: have you ever argued on the internet?

Serini sees the Order as children. Well-equipped and well-meaning children, but children nonetheless.

A fair assessment.

Well, I think this ends the "Serini is, for some reason, Grandma Bitterleaf or otherwise related to Belkar" theory.

And odds on her being Aunt Judy are rapidly approaching zero.

[Fyraltari]

Pretty sure he was alone then too.

And that would matyer if anyone were suggesting she challenge him to a duel.

That's the only defense in there? Really?

Probably not. What's your point?

The monsters Team Evil is plowing through at a rate of six Gates a night?

No, these are the decoy monsters in the tunnels of the fake dungeon that lead nowhere. We know that there are other monsters on Serini's employ as evidenced by Sunny and Mimi.

[Psyren]

"Campaign of obstructing The Order and the paladins in their plan for the last gate."

Yeah, to locate/secure/fortify it before Team Evil gets there. You know, the plan?

Serini was on the original team that sealed the Rifts and created the gates. They learned everything there was to know about them before cleansing the history books of any reference to them.

They clearly didn't, because they don't know squat about The Dark One's plan or the IFCC's. And by all accounts, nobody but the Order knows about the planet inside the rifts either.

The Order only knows what they know due to divine revelations from a god, and because they initiated a discussion with Redcloak because of those same revelations...something the Scribblers believed wouldn't happen (i.e. gods won't tell mortals about the Rifts or the Snarl). So yeah, I don't really think she's crazy or stupid for assuming she already knows everything that the Order could tell her.

It would be lovely if Serini was a conversational Lawful Good type who believes that everyone should be heard out fully before being dismissed. But she's not, and that doesn't automatically make her a moron. An arrogant condescending jerk, sure.

Agreed on crazy, disagreed on stupid. Are we really saying just talking to them and finding out what they know would have made it completely impossible for her to ambush them later if she deemed that necessary? Are we saying an epic rogue couldn't have bluffed V if necessary?

[Metastachydium]

No, these are the decoy monsters in the tunnels of the fake dungeon that lead nowhere. We know that there are other monsters on Serini's employ as evidenced by Sunny and Mimi.

A beh thing with all the eyes and a mimic versus critters that can give Xykon XP. I'm sure the Bony Bastard would be trembling if he knew.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair Sunny would normally be an excellent counter to Team Evil assuming that Xykon doesn't have something like Hellball. But considering Sunny acts like they're 10 at most, or post-Dashing Swordsman pre-BRItF Elan, I can see why Serini would be less willing to risk them against Xykon compared to the Order. Heck, the entire reason the comic's not effectively over is arguably because Sunny made a mistake.

[pyrefiend]

No, she doesn't. If she did, she'd drop the illusion on the tunnels and lead him to it. She just thinks the last Gate being broken is an even worse outcome than Xykon winning. She doesn't trust the Order and friends not to destroy the Gate should Team Evil wins which is why she wants them out of the picture. It's not that complicated.

100% agreed. This much should not be up for debate.

And even if she can't turn off the teleport trap for some reason, there are plenty of things she could do to lead Team Evil to the Gate, if that was her goal.

[Psyren]

And that would matyer if anyone were suggesting she challenge him to a duel.

You brought up her not being alone to point out that she'd have better odds in a fight this time. Meanwhile he has a near-epic cleric and a clearly high-level ranger on his side, on top of being even more powerful himself. It's madness.

Probably not. What's your point?

That your assumption that she can disable all of them just because a rogue can turn off the very first one we saw is unfounded.

A beh thing with all the eyes and a mimic versus critters that can give Xykon XP. I'm sure the Bony Bastard would be trembling if he knew.

^ This.

[Fyraltari]

A beh thing with all the eyes and a mimic versus critters that can give Xykon XP.

Are the people she took with her to fight the Order who are much less dangerous than the order.

Like, if I were the lord of a fortress and I heard a couple of thieves got inside while an unrelated enemy army was besieging me, I would not send all my troops after the thieves. In fact, I'd keep my best troops at their station, manning the walls in case the army attacks today.