Sorcerer vs. Warlock - Dueling Apotheoses

[ThatDuckGrant]

Good points! Maybe the trick here is to fuse certain elements of the class, like Pact of the Blade with Hexblade, Pact of the Tome with other features, Pact of the Chain with the summons, for the major different warlock varieties, and then your patron dovetails with those choices in meaningful ways. Like if you go Blade/Fiend, the Blade deals fire damage whenever you get your Thirsting Blade, GOO deals psychic damage, and so on. There's definitely room to blow up the pacts, and you're both right, the idea of "this physical thing being given to you" is much more in line with warlocks. Plus the pacts divvy the warlock up nicely into their different respective subtropes: classic occult scholar (Tome), summoner/subjugator of extraplanars (Chain), Spawn-esque melee antihero who made a deal with the devil for physical power (Blade).

I definitely think you’re on to something here! And I think the new talisman option is kind of underwhelming, but the thought is good. Making these boons stronger would be a great way to compensate for say eldrich blast being reallocated or for reorganizing invocations.

So instead of giving warlocks options like knock backs on their EB, they could get powers like turning their tome into a tome of the stilled tongue, or some sort of action surge that comes on later (blade), or summoning a fiend/celestial/undead etc (chain) once per short rest, or creating an anti magic field around them once per day (talisman). You’d need to balance it, but I think it would come out as much more “warlocky.”

[Hytheter]

From a trope standpoint though, I still think there needs to be a “sought out a patron” trope.

I disagree for reasons listed above, but I understand it's not a popular viewpoint. :P

[Abracadangit]

I'm a child of 4e, so less afraid of slaughtering the sacred cows - but I do recognise where they're seen as sacred, 4e is _very_ different to 3.5 and 5e. Hence trying to draw inspiration was 3.5s Warlock chassis.

I'd probably swap out the warlock subclass abilities for more invocations, ideally at-will or encounter equivalents. There's inspiration from 3.5 to mine here, stuff like making Eldritch Blasts heal and what-not. But to be honest, I think the game would benefit from putting everyone functionally on the same resource track. If I had free reign over 5.5, I'd probably make all casters a combination of long and short rest, so invocations as at-will powers would be the Warlock's niche among the spellcasters.

I agree that they should have made Eldritch a class feature instead of making it a selectable cantrip, and then various invocations would empower it (like we have now) and different patrons could add different passives and/or damage types. I actually think EB is a better fit for sorcerers than warlocks (for reasons described earlier), but I get that it's warlock property, so then it should really just be made a class ability.

I'm fine with giving warlocks at-wills in conjunction with their spell slots -- feels "tricky" the way warlocks are meant to be, in that while other casters have to play by the rules, warlocks get at-wills because they're all about shirking those same rules.

I definitely think you’re on to something here! And I think the new talisman option is kind of underwhelming, but the thought is good. Making these boons stronger would be a great way to compensate for say eldrich blast being reallocated or for reorganizing invocations.

So instead of giving warlocks options like knock backs on their EB, they could get powers like turning their tome into a tome of the stilled tongue, or some sort of action surge that comes on later (blade), or summoning a fiend/celestial/undead etc (chain) once per short rest, or creating an anti magic field around them once per day (talisman). You’d need to balance it, but I think it would come out as much more “warlocky.”

Ha ha, I think the new talisman is kind of underwhelming, too. Maybe instead of a talisman, we'd have various "pact tools," like an infernal calligraphy set, a fey-enchanted sewing needle, etc that grant the character its respective tool proficiency, along with some other interesting abilities. Food for thought!

I disagree for reasons listed above, but I understand it's not a popular viewpoint. :P

I totally understand your view, though - and I've seen discussions on these boards of collapsing the two before, so I think you have a fair amount of supporters. I just like warlocks too dang much, and I think they've got a class thesis/apotheosis that can be salvaged, if properly reconfigured.

[Abracadangit]

I see it as less becoming a part of the patron and more as a series of boons that the patron grants to you. And it makes perfect sense that if you are coming to a Vampire for boons you are getting undead type boons and if you come to an elder fey for boons you are getting fey type abilities, etc.

I guess I see Warlocks as being granted boons of one type or another from their patron throughout their development moreso than becoming minor versions of their patrons. (You make a deal with the Devil to get abilities but don’t become a Devil.)

You're not wrong - like for example, I know the fiendlock doesn't get all THAT many fiendish abilities, really just the Expanded Spell List and the Fiendish Resistance are fiendlike. But if we look at the genielock, the hide-inside-your-lamp thing is really a genie schtick. It's almost like WotC designed it so you could play a genie character with a little refluffing.

So it depends on the subclass, how strong that effect is. But I still want to refocus the class apotheosis, so warlocks feel warlocky as possible.

[dmhelp]

I made myself a revised wizard that picks skills from sor war wiz and spells from sor war wiz (int based spells known 3 + 3/4 level max 15).

1 subclass from sor war wiz
2 font of magic
3 invocations (2 or 1 + pact boon), metamagic (2), or ritual casting/spellbook (may inscribe level 0-2 spells and ritual spells into book, may prepare int mod level 0-2 spells as a wiz)
6 subclass power
10 subclass power
11 invocations (2), metamagic (2), or ritual casting/spellbook (if chosen twice can prepare level 0-5 spells)
14 subclass power
18 sorcerous restoration or spell mastery
20 invocations (2), metamagic (2), ritual casting/spellbook (if chosen thrice can prepare level 0-8 spells), sorcerous restoration, or spell mastery

So if you are recreating the pure wizard it is a bit of a nerf but you can mix match how much sor war wiz you want to further titrate your archtype.

[Abracadangit]

I made myself a revised wizard that picks skills from sor war wiz and spells from sor war wiz (int based spells known 3 + 3/4 level max 15).

1 subclass from sor war wiz
2 font of magic
3 invocations (2 or 1 + pact boon), metamagic (2), or ritual casting/spellbook (may inscribe level 0-2 spells and ritual spells into book, may prepare int mod level 0-2 spells as a wiz)
6 subclass power
10 subclass power
11 invocations (2), metamagic (2), or ritual casting/spellbook (if chosen twice can prepare level 0-5 spells)
14 subclass power
18 sorcerous restoration or spell mastery
20 invocations (2), metamagic (2), ritual casting/spellbook (if chosen thrice can prepare level 0-8 spells), sorcerous restoration, or spell mastery

So if you are recreating the pure wizard it is a bit of a nerf but you can mix match how much sor war wiz you want to further titrate your archtype.

Excellent work! Now after introducing your revised wizard into your games, is the plan to keep sorcerers and warlocks around? Or does this edit remove the need for them, since wizards cover all the arcane bases now?

[dmhelp]

Excellent work! Now after introducing your revised wizard into your games, is the plan to keep sorcerers and warlocks around? Or does this edit remove the need for them, since wizards cover all the arcane bases now?

This layout is for replacement. I folded bard and rogue together as well with bard as a half caster.