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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Combining Selective Spell + Antimagic Field

    Selective AMF is a much-hyped metamagic combo, but on a close reading, it doesn't do everything it's reputed to. It's still useful in some specific cases.

    Let's take a look:
    Quote Originally Posted by Antimagic Field
    [The field] suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area [and] prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Selective Spell
    You can modify an area spell so that it does not affect one designated creature within its area.
    Selective Spell doesn't exempt any space from the area of the AMF. The chosen creature, and only the creature, is unaffected by it. But anything that's not part of the creature is still affected.

    There are 3 common misinterpretations that have led this combo to be overstated.

    Spoiler: Misinterpretations
    Show
    1) Some people have assumed that a creature who's unaffected by the AMF could benefit from a spell or magic item that the field is suppressing. But the spell or item is still within the field and is thus being suppressed, so there's no way for the creature to benefit from it. That the creature is personally unaffected by the field doesn't mean they render other items or spells unaffected by it.

    2) Some people have imagined the creature's body as being a sort of gap in the AMF. But in the game there are only spaces. No spaces are exempted from the area. It surrounds and permeates the unaffected creature. So yes, items worn by the creature and spells affecting them are still in the field.

    You could use archmage's mastery of shaping to exempt a space from the AMF, but that would mean no AMF at all within that space.

    3) Some people find it intuitive that targeted spells would count as part of a creature they're affecting, but AFAICT that's not the case. For example, dispel magic lets you target a spell separately from a creature affected by it ("One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell"). The fact that you can target a spell without targeting the creature it's affecting is one clear sign that it isn't part of the creature.

    A creature may be subject to a spell, and the spell may affect them, but that doesn't make the spell a part of the creature themselves. It's a magical effect active within the area of the AMF and is thus suppressed.


    So what things don't work?
    - Magic items worn by the exempted creature aren't part of the creature, so they're still suppressed.
    - Spells that affect the exempted creature, whether detrimental or beneficial, aren't part of the creature either, and are likewise suppressed. This is true whether the spell is a targeted spell or an area spell.
    - Spells and other magical/supernatural abilities used by the exempted creature are suppressed as normal if used within the area of the field.

    What things do work?
    - A creature's supernatural special qualities are part of it, so it being unaffected by the field means they aren't suppressed.
    - If the exempted creature themselves would normally be suppressed by the AMF (such as an incorporeal creature, a summoned creature, or an intelligent magic item [which counts as a creature of the construct type]), being unaffected by the field means they don't "wink out" or get suppressed.

    That brings us to...

    Uses of Selective AMF:
    - Prevent an incorporeal or summoned creature from winking out within the field.
    - Exempt an intelligent magic item (which counts as a creature of the construct type), keeping it functional within the field.
    - The big one: let a creature keep its inherent, passive supernatural abilities within the field. For example, a chronotyryn could cast selective AMF and retain its dual actions ability.

    ---

    For a more in-depth look check out this thread by Anthrowhale. I came to my interpretation before seeing his thread but agree with him on every point except his question 6 (and could be convinced otherwise).

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    Last edited by Elves; 2021-09-17 at 01:30 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Combining Selective Spell + Antimagic Field

    Point of origin does not refer to where the spell is being cast- it refers to the target, or rather, the point of origin of the area of the spell.
    A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. . .
    Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. . .
    Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin. . .
    You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
    Non-area spells. . . don't really have a point of origin, unless it's just the target. It's not the RC partial clarifications on area spells near AMFs that prevents you from casting within an AMF, it's part of the spell's own text:
    An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area,
    If you use a spell within an AMF, it's suppressed, even though the AMF hilariously does not block line of effect. But the point of origin is not in the AMF unless you place it there.

    The idea of the Selective Spell reading is that since you aren't affected, you can use a spell, and because the AMF doesn't block LoE, and the "point of origin" as in target/center area you're aiming at is outside of the AMF, nothing prevents you from casting out. Of course, while you're still protected from areas, if you don't count as in the AMF then any spells which target you ought to still work, leaving the defense rather laughably weak (particularly if we assume everyone knows how everything works), if better than the earlier Archmage-sculpted version. If a point of origin is assigned for targeted spells as something like "as close as possible to but not actually within the target creature," then that prevents the person in the selective AMF from casting on themselves, but still doesn't prevent them from casting out.

    But yeah, all the so-called exploits have always been full of holes, particularly if you apply the same level of aggression in finding readings to make them not-work as the people who push them do in their defense.
    Last edited by Fizban; 2021-09-16 at 08:52 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Re: Combining Selective Spell + Antimagic Field

    Didn't realize point of origin was referring specifically to a grid intersection where an area effect emanates from.

    The idea of the Selective Spell reading is that since you aren't affected, you can use a spell
    Unless I'm missing something, AMF doesn't seem to prevent casting spells from inside it even without Selective. So seems like spellcasting is always possible from within to without. It depends on how you read these lines:

    > it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines
    >An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within [...] the area

    Because the spell is separate from the creature casting it, these lines either prevent all casting within the field (with or without Selective), or allow casting from within to without (with or without Selective).

    Of course, while you're still protected from areas, if you don't count as in the AMF then any spells which target you ought to still work
    My reading, as mentioned in OP, is that this isn't the case
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